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The RB9 - Red Bull Racing's challenger for 2013


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#651 Kelateboy

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 15:19

Poor weekend by RBRs standards but at least Seb got 12 points from the race, hindsight is a wonderful thing because had they used the same strategy as everyone else I reckon 2nd would've been achievable but they weren't to know.

This race as well for me highlights that we need to start gearing the cars a bit longer because if you're in the middle of the pack like we were today instead of using your DRS to pass someone you just hit the limiter and a faster car in a straight line will just get past you like Hulkenberg did today.

Next week, different track, different temperature, different compounds(?) So we'll see how the team performs. They have to make sure they nail their race setup because the Ferrari in Alonso's hands today was head and shoulders above anything else.

The pace shown by Vettel on that last stint on options was quite phenomenal. With the benefits of hindsight, they should have pitted Vettel at the same time as Button, and he probably could have gotten 2nd. I was quite surprised that Vettel was able to keep up with the pace, unlike Button who could only push for a few laps only. It is something positive that could be a catalyst for them in Bahrain.


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#652 superdelphinus

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 15:26

The rb9 seems one of the poorest on tyres in the top 5?

#653 apoka

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 17:27

The pace shown by Vettel on that last stint on options was quite phenomenal. With the benefits of hindsight, they should have pitted Vettel at the same time as Button, and he probably could have gotten 2nd. I was quite surprised that Vettel was able to keep up with the pace, unlike Button who could only push for a few laps only. It is something positive that could be a catalyst for them in Bahrain.

Yeah that last stint was quite surprising, since he could string several strong laps together. If you think about it: In 5 laps on a fast sting on softs you can save around 15 seconds compared to the mediums, which is already almost the time lost in the pit stop. And who knows whether the tyre may even have lasted for another 2 laps ...

Most likely they also got the delta for stint 3 of Vettel wrong as he was consistently faster at the end of the stint. It seems that even at that point RB wanted a save P4. Most likely they only let him drive faster to clearly stay in front of Di Resta after his stop.


#654 bonjon1979a

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 17:46

The pace shown by Vettel on that last stint on options was quite phenomenal. With the benefits of hindsight, they should have pitted Vettel at the same time as Button, and he probably could have gotten 2nd. I was quite surprised that Vettel was able to keep up with the pace, unlike Button who could only push for a few laps only. It is something positive that could be a catalyst for them in Bahrain.


May just have pipped Hamilton if they'd pitted a lap earlier. I don't really blame Red Bull though because if you look at vettels lap times they were showing severe deg. from 1.36 to 1.40 in 4 laps, probably would've got slower the lap after that meaning that there's a possibility that Ham could've been faster the following lap. Those softs went off soo much and from the stints in practice if he had have passed Ham with a lap to go, he'd definitely still be in a close fight as he'd have no tyres left. Red Bull got very close today to the podium but they're not going to be able to try this strategy on many tracks this year. I doubt we'll see cars coming in after five laps again in 2013 and so if you want to win the race you're going to have to qualify at the front and keep up with the front runners on the same strategy. At the moment, I can't see RB doing that against ferrari and lotus who look to me like they've got the upper hand on everyone...

#655 encircled

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 17:52

Qualifying
Vettel: Q1 - New Soft / Q2 - Old Soft & New Soft / Q3 - Old Soft & New Medium
Webber: Q1 - New Soft / Q2 - Old Soft

Race
Vettel: 1 NS, 2 NM and 1 scrubbed Medium set
Webber: 2 NS, 3NM


To see if the new wing works. It didn't apparently, since both used the old wing on Saturday.

I forgot to say but thanks for this.

#656 encircled

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 17:53

Anyway, anybody knows where I can find temperature data for the first 3 races?

#657 Afterburner

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 21:05

Did anyone see just how poor RBR's top speed was this race? DRS open and a slipstream, and the Sauber was still pulling away on almost every straight...

#658 HoldenRT

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 22:46

Webber had 319 top speed on the first lap on full tanks and WITHOUT DRS.. before he pitted and got rid of the softs on lap 2.

SEE MY POST ABOVE.

That's my point. It's a setup choice. And the point is.. Webber's pace was strong, despite that setup, it's not like he was sliding all over the place. Rosberg and Massa were around him on track after their stop.. Webber's tyres were 6 laps older and the pace was competitive and yet with a very high top speed.

Edited by HoldenRT, 14 April 2013 - 22:48.


#659 Afterburner

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 23:42

Webber had 319 top speed on the first lap on full tanks and WITHOUT DRS.. before he pitted and got rid of the softs on lap 2.

SEE MY POST ABOVE.

That's my point. It's a setup choice. And the point is.. Webber's pace was strong, despite that setup, it's not like he was sliding all over the place. Rosberg and Massa were around him on track after their stop.. Webber's tyres were 6 laps older and the pace was competitive and yet with a very high top speed.

I agree, I just wish they'd consider their vulnerability on the straights more if they know they aren't going to be able to control the race from the front. The top speed was pitiful today and I'm surprised Vettel managed to get anyone on the straights at all--it felt to me like he had a target on his back as soon as anyone came up behind him, and it wasn't just down to tyres.

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#660 Kelateboy

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 05:12

Most likely they also got the delta for stint 3 of Vettel wrong as he was consistently faster at the end of the stint. It seems that even at that point RB wanted a save P4. Most likely they only let him drive faster to clearly stay in front of Di Resta after his stop.

Agree with you on the 3rd stint - they could have pushed harder with a faster target time for Vettel. But he definitely lost the podium due to the 4s losses incurred when Alonso overtook him twice.

#661 apoka

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 06:07

May just have pipped Hamilton if they'd pitted a lap earlier. I don't really blame Red Bull though because if you look at vettels lap times they were showing severe deg. from 1.36 to 1.40 in 4 laps, probably would've got slower the lap after that meaning that there's a possibility that Ham could've been faster the following lap. Those softs went off soo much and from the stints in practice if he had have passed Ham with a lap to go, he'd definitely still be in a close fight as he'd have no tyres left. Red Bull got very close today to the podium but they're not going to be able to try this strategy on many tracks this year. I doubt we'll see cars coming in after five laps again in 2013 and so if you want to win the race you're going to have to qualify at the front and keep up with the front runners on the same strategy. At the moment, I can't see RB doing that against ferrari and lotus who look to me like they've got the upper hand on everyone...

I don't fully agree. The last 1:40 was because he had Hamilton and backmarkers in front of him. It was quite clear that he could go faster. I'd predict something like 1:36.808, 1:37.256, 1:38.211 and then slightly less than one second deg for another 2-3 laps and after that the tyres are gone. I think pitting a lap earlier would have got him past Hamilton (who was also suffering deg). I was amazed by that 1:37.2 which he did in his second lap on the softs after driving hard for 2 laps (outlap included).


#662 apoka

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 06:13

Agree with you on the 3rd stint - they could have pushed harder with a faster target time for Vettel. But he definitely lost the podium due to the 4s losses incurred when Alonso overtook him twice.

It's somehow funny in hindsight that the RB9 setup is so different from all others than you even lose lots of time when being passed by a 1-2 seconds faster car. Alonso basically cost him time, although he wasn't actually racing him pit stop adjusted. I'd really like RB to consider giving their cars a bit more top speed, as you just get so much more flexibility in strategy and you avoid ruining your tyres by driving closely behind other cars. However, it just doesn't seem to be worth it according to their calculations. I also wonder whether the car shouldn't actually be easier to its tyres when trading corner speed for straightline speed.


#663 bonjon1979a

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 06:39

I don't fully agree. The last 1:40 was because he had Hamilton and backmarkers in front of him. It was quite clear that he could go faster. I'd predict something like 1:36.808, 1:37.256, 1:38.211 and then slightly less than one second deg for another 2-3 laps and after that the tyres are gone. I think pitting a lap earlier would have got him past Hamilton (who was also suffering deg). I was amazed by that 1:37.2 which he did in his second lap on the softs after driving hard for 2 laps (outlap included).

That's not what we saw in practice, once tyres started to go the went horribly fast. When he slid by the apex towards the end it didn't look like there was anything left in the tyres, if there was then he should really have been able to recover it and close up on ham afterwards. But instead the cat was squirming all over the place in acceleration. It doesn't really matter though, I just don't think the team were too far off with their calculations and don't think it was a certainty that he would've got 3rd had he pitted a lap earlier. Made the finish exciting though

#664 dreamerBiH

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 07:49

The pace shown by Vettel on that last stint on options was quite phenomenal. With the benefits of hindsight, they should have pitted Vettel at the same time as Button, and he probably could have gotten 2nd. I was quite surprised that Vettel was able to keep up with the pace, unlike Button who could only push for a few laps only. It is something positive that could be a catalyst for them in Bahrain.



The underlined part is not correct. Button had no reason to push every single lap, he only had to overtake Massa. Take a look at his last lap, he drove 1.38.0. RB is not better than Mclaren when it comes to tyre management. It's quite the opposite actually.

#665 Kelateboy

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:36

Chinese Grand Prix
Vettel 'disappointed' to miss out on podium

http://en.espnf1.com...ory/105541.html

#666 encircled

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 15:36

With Pirelli quietly changing the tire allocation from Softs and Hards to Medium and Hards for Bahrain, I think it will be reasonable to expect that RBR will fight for pole and race win this weekend. Whether they will still save tires or not during qualifying will be another question however.

#667 bonjon1979a

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 16:27

With Pirelli quietly changing the tire allocation from Softs and Hards to Medium and Hards for Bahrain, I think it will be reasonable to expect that RBR will fight for pole and race win this weekend. Whether they will still save tires or not during qualifying will be another question however.


I'm not sure I understand this conclusion. I thought that Red Bull went for the different strategy because they knew that they couldn't match Ferrari/merc/lotus in qualifying so went for an alternative strategy from the front runners taking advantage of the fact that they knew everyone ahead would have to pit after five laps leaving the medium runners in clear air. They're not suddenly going to be quicker than the teams that they couldn't challenge in China for the front rows of the grid in qualifying are they? I'm not sure I understand how this change alters their relative pace - are red bull quicker than other teams on the medium compound but struggle on the soft? You may well be right, just don't quite understand!

#668 encircled

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 16:48

Well, I just think they will be less conservative now with the Mediums and Hards compared to Softs and Hards. Temperatures will be presumably hotter too in Bahrain compared to China.

Malaysia was the hottest race so far this season AFAIK (unless I'm incorrect, please correct me) and they went well with the mediums there, at least from Seb's stint, where he actually had his longest stint there with the mediums.

#669 bonjon1979a

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 16:56

Well, I just think they will be less conservative now with the Mediums and Hards compared to Softs and Hards. Temperatures will be presumably hotter too in Bahrain compared to China.

Malaysia was the hottest race so far this season AFAIK (unless I'm incorrect, please correct me) and they went well with the mediums there, at least from Seb's stint, where he actually had his longest stint there with the mediums.


Ah okay. It's all relative though, isn't it? Other teams will be less conservative too. Personally, I don't think we've seen the 'true' pecking order yet. First two races we had rain in the mix, third race we had tyres that fell apart. Hopefully in bahrain we'll have a better picture - then all the tams will bring their Barcelona upgrades and it'll all change again! In truth, it's only mid way through the european season that we can really see where the teams are. It's certainly tight this year though and SV is at the top of the table so you may well be right!

#670 encircled

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 17:02

Yeah, too many factors to consider which makes it too hard to determine a pecking order in this stage of the season. And yes, whatever result may happen in Bahrain could easily change come Barcelona. :drunk:

#671 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 17:18

Another interesting RBR development I didn't notice when I first posted the twi strake photo is now RB have a hole between the floor strakes. Very interesting..

Posted Image

You can see part of the hole in the first picture I posted.

#672 redbull1654

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 18:09

bonjon1979a
Yeah its really hard to judge the correct pecking order of the grid,lotus were in race pace the fastest in australia,red bull in malaysia and ferrari in china.But it will be probably the same as last year when red bull had struggled in china and was not really competitive.And many people were talking about that rbr lost the pace,and then they made a turnover in Bahrain and vettel won the race.I see rb9 faster as last year rb8,and we also saw that in China,when red bull could challenge for a podium but were not lucky enough.
I see in Bahrain qualy,hamilton and vettel the only one to chalenge for pole,and then over the race pace lotus will be faster then red bull.Ferrari will be right there but they will not be so fast because of poor traction.
But the conclusion is that is just the matter od time for rbr to manage the tyres,if this happens its game over for others,and vettel will probably take another title,which i really hope so.

Edited by redbull1654, 15 April 2013 - 18:10.


#673 plumtree

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 18:32

Another interesting RBR development I didn't notice when I first posted the twi strake photo is now RB have a hole between the floor strakes. Very interesting..

http://cdn-8.motorsp...540428/s1_1.jpg

You can see part of the hole in the first picture I posted.

I'm not sure if I understand correctly but if you mean the brighter part, it doesn't look like a hole or a split.

Posted Image
Left - Webber's in qualifying, right - Seb's in FP3

Just noticed that part, too, was tested on Friday. As you can see here ( http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=6220729 ) Webber's car had two, Seb's still one.


***

http://adamcooperf1....the-tyres-more/

CH: “I’m not sure, to be honest with you,” said Horner when asked about the car’s Shanghai form. “The last couple of years this track hasn’t been out strongest. It has a heavy emphasis on front wear and degradation, you tend to be front limited here rather than rear. So we’ll see next weekend whether things move around in Bahrain.

“I think we’re seeing that qualifying is paying less of a premium than trying to preserve the tyres. Our car performs very, very well, it’s a quick car, but a quick car abuses the tyre more, and the tyres can’t cope with that.

“Obviously then we have to adapt our approach and set-up and the way that we operate the car to ensure that we get more out of the tyres. It’s the same for everybody, it’s just a different way of going about things.”

#674 FastnLoud

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 15:37

Front wing was hardly flexing from the onboards compared to Sepang.



#675 Seanspeed

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 23:57

Posted Image

#676 lbennie

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 03:02

What a cracking photo

#677 Sakae

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:16

My mind goes numb when I am hearing proclamations that fastest car should not be wining F1 races. Future of this season is more in Pirelli's hands at the moment, than some teams can react to swings, and if Pirelli are directed behind closed doors and discreet phone calls which tires to bring to which races, this roulette will simply continue until mid November. I also think there will be attempts made to ensure that Vettel will not win his fourth title in a row. Soft, and objectionable* tire can return again, we simply have no guarantee that it will not.

_________

*I use "objectionable" term since all complains we heard from several sources. It is not a tire that served well to RBR, I take it.

Edited by Sakae, 17 April 2013 - 05:20.


#678 Zava

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 19:50

Posted Image
williams style blown axle, I hope it won't slow down those fantastic pit stops!

#679 Kelateboy

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 04:43

Posted Image
williams style blown axle, I hope it won't slow down those fantastic pit stops!

Didn't Williams copy this idea from Red Bull's banned vented hubs? It is still undergoing testing as I believe only Vettel's car has the feature in China.

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#680 Kelateboy

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:55

An average FP1 for the two Red Bull drivers. Red Bull tried different rear wings for Webber and Vettel. Webber tried the skinnier wing he raced in China, while Vettel was still using the old rear wing. In the 3rd stint, Vettel put on a new front wing, which did not seem to give him any discernable speed advantage compared to his previous stint. Vettel was also testing the Williams style blown hollow axle, which the sky F1 team picked up early in their FP1 coverage.

FP2 in 10mins....

#681 HoldenRT

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 18:37

Apparently at the last race, Webber used (after starting from pitlane) to the lower drag rear wing.. and that somewhat explains his top speed and keeping the pace. Bahrain is a track which doesn't need such high speed, no super long straight.. and it seems both will be using the higher drag rear wing. I hope they consider something similar for other tracks in the future with long straights though. Or even just taking some angle out of the higher drag rear wing although on this circuit it doesn't seem as much of an issue.

Sorry if this has already been said.. in a rush.

I thought the car looked quite good in FP2.. seems to be really well suited to the car and it's strengths. No major tyre wear issues either.

#682 Afterburner

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 19:59

Yeah, their pace didn't seem too bad, but I think Lotus and Ferrari will be stronger on race day regardless of what happens in qualifying. Pole is basically a requirement if RBR wants to win--a podium looks to be on the cards, though.

#683 Kelateboy

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 11:01

I thought the car looked quite good in FP2.. seems to be really well suited to the car and it's strengths. No major tyre wear issues either.

And the car looked extremely good in FP3. Vettel was faster on primes than everyone on options except Alonso.

Again, different rear wings used by both drivers in FP3. Webber with a skinnier wing, and Vettel with a regular rear wing. I think they will keep on the configuration for the qualifying in 5 mins time.


#684 Kelateboy

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 11:51

It was a wrong move to put on options for Q1. Now Vettel will only have a single run on new options for Q3. Hope he can still get the pole with a single run. The other run on scrubbed options will not be good enough to get him into a respectable position.

#685 encircled

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 12:21

Yeah, but P2 isn't that bad. Hopefully he can have a good start to keep the Ferraris behind him. Maybe the strategy will be Mediums-Hards-Hards-Hards since they conserved all the Hard tires.

Although RBR again on the lower end of the speed trap rankings. It might make things hard for Webber to overtake and make up positions, especially against the Force Indias who are 9 km/h faster on the trap.

Edited by encircled, 20 April 2013 - 12:24.


#686 Kelateboy

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 13:05

Yeah, but P2 isn't that bad. Hopefully he can have a good start to keep the Ferraris behind him. Maybe the strategy will be Mediums-Hards-Hards-Hards since they conserved all the Hard tires.

I think by going for options in Q1, RBR will essentially be 3 stopping in tomorrow's race. The gamble was in Q2 whether the run on the scrubbed medium would be enough to get them through. It was enough but the team blinked late in Q2 and went out again on new option. It was the right decision but had Vettel been 0.1s or 0.2s faster, he would not have needed to go out again.

In the PC, Vettel said that Rosberg's time was untouchable even if he had had a perfect lap. So, 2nd is the best he could have done under the circumstances. The challenge for tomorrow race is to fend off the lightning quick Ferraris behind him at the start.



#687 HoldenRT

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 15:20

Seems to be Vettel vs Alonso for the championship and Alonso has had a better start to the championship but who knows what the pecking order will be 6 races from now. But over the course of a championship it seems Redbull and Ferrari are the best cars. With Redbull being a touch better in the qualiy and Ferrari being stronger in the races and with better straight line speed for overtaking.

#688 apoka

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 17:02

Seems to be Vettel vs Alonso for the championship and Alonso has had a better start to the championship but who knows what the pecking order will be 6 races from now. But over the course of a championship it seems Redbull and Ferrari are the best cars. With Redbull being a touch better in the qualiy and Ferrari being stronger in the races and with better straight line speed for overtaking.

It's still too early to know who will fight for WDC/WCC. If Ferrari looks as good as last race, they'd clearly win. Similarly, RB also have the potential to develop over the season and dominate (at least for a few races). Lotus and Merc remain to be dark horses, especially Kimi still has a very realistic shot at WDC.

It's also amazing that McLaren has gone from the fastest team last year to a midfieldish team. I expect them to close the gap, but it will be too late for WDC/WCC.

Just talking about this weekend, the RB didn't really convince me so far that they have better pace than Ferrari or Lotus, but I'm optimistic for the next races (due to upgrades).



#689 BigCHrome

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 22:49

Apparently at the last race, Webber used (after starting from pitlane) to the lower drag rear wing.. and that somewhat explains his top speed and keeping the pace. Bahrain is a track which doesn't need such high speed, no super long straight.. and it seems both will be using the higher drag rear wing. I hope they consider something similar for other tracks in the future with long straights though. Or even just taking some angle out of the higher drag rear wing although on this circuit it doesn't seem as much of an issue.

Sorry if this has already been said.. in a rush.

I thought the car looked quite good in FP2.. seems to be really well suited to the car and it's strengths. No major tyre wear issues either.


There isn't one huge straight in Bahrain but there's 3 relatively long ones.

#690 Kelateboy

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 05:44

Just talking about this weekend, the RB didn't really convince me so far that they have better pace than Ferrari or Lotus, but I'm optimistic for the next races (due to upgrades).

My opinion after watching all free practices and qualifying in Bahrain is that Red Bull race pace is slightly behind that of Ferrari and Lotus. They are unable to push simply because of the tyres factor, and that is why RBR will most probably use all 3 sets of new hards in the race today and 3 stoppings.

I am looking at Vettel to pit on Lap 6, Lap 21 and Lap 38.


#691 Sakae

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 07:06

This is not a good headline.

#692 FPV GTHO

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 07:39

Pirelli say 8 teams don't want them to change. Other than Mercedes it's not hard to guess the other team is likely Toro Rosso...

The tyres are junk but I think Red Bull need to get on with the game in some respect, and put more effort into their suspension.

#693 EvanRainer

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 09:33

Red Bull hasn't been "crying" about it or anything though. Getting on with it is exactly what they are doing. The fact that they would like some changes is just their opinion which they are required to give as well.

#694 famou55TAR

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:35

With Alonso with his DRS problem, and Massa with his tire and wing issue. We just need Webber to make some moves, we can come away with some serious points

#695 gillesthegenius

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 13:50

Yabaa dabba doo.

#696 encircled

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 13:58

Great result for Seb! Mark's struggling with making the tires last though.

#697 Kelateboy

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 15:07

A stunning 28th win for Vettel. It was quite an easy race after he cleared Alonso and Rosberg in the first 3 laps. He got his car out of DRS zone immediately after clearing Rosberg and built up the lead as Rosberg held up Alonso for a while. And once Alonso had to pit with DRS wing failure not once but twice, it was all time trial for Vettel from thereon.

His 1st stint on options were supreme, as he was the last one on 3-stoppers (who started on options) to pit. His 2nd stint was consistently quicker than anybody else by some 1s/lap. His 3rd was slower, probably managing his lead and his 4th was just okay even though he could not resist to pen down the quickest lap 2 laps from the finish. Great race pace.

A great result especially with his main rival getting into trouble. Could not wait for Spain in 3 weeks time!





#698 encircled

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 15:24

Never count out Kimi though. He's only 10 points behind and will definitely provide a challenge too.

Seems like temperatures are a very important factor so far when it comes to the RB9's performance (at least judging from the first 4 races).

#699 Kelateboy

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 15:49

Never count out Kimi though. He's only 10 points behind and will definitely provide a challenge too.

Seems like temperatures are a very important factor so far when it comes to the RB9's performance (at least judging from the first 4 races).

RBR's excellent race pace in today's race may have been due to the track temperature. The race which started at 3pm local time had the track temperature of 42C, steadily going down to 37C by the end of the race. Compared today's track temperature with FP1 track temperature of 44C-47C at 10am, FP2 of 42C-45C at 2pm, FP3 of 42C-44C at 11am and Q1 - Q3 of 41C-43C at 2pm.

Who knows - maybe the hard tyres worked well with RB9 for sub 41C/42C temperature range.

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#700 encircled

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 15:54

RBR's excellent race pace in today's race may have been due to the track temperature. The race which started at 3pm local time had the track temperature of 42C, steadily going down to 37C by the end of the race. Compared today's track temperature with FP1 track temperature of 44C-47C at 10am, FP2 of 42C-45C at 2pm, FP3 of 42C-44C at 11am and Q1 - Q3 of 41C-43C at 2pm.

Who knows - maybe the hard tyres worked well with RB9 for sub 41C/42C temperature range.

That's a possibility, and probably helped Seb making the car work today.

Hopefully, they can continue this in Barcelona, where they had a poor result last year. Temperatures might be a factor again though, and there will be upgrades from practically every team as well to factor in.