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The RB9 - Red Bull Racing's challenger for 2013


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#801 yoyogetfunky

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 17:05

Crying while leading the championship in a car that is clearly inferior to two others. :cool:

:up: :lol:

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#802 gillesthegenius

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 17:12

And if you correct the Malaysia result:

Webber 49
Massa 45

Though you're missing the point.

Vettel was complaining about the tyres on an occassion he didn't win. However, i don't remember him or Horner complaining about the tyres in Istanbul 2011, which was also a 4 stop race.


Who's missing the point (or in this case, the massive amount of points thrown away by Alonso and Ferrari)? Me or you?


#803 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 17:15

Who's missing the point (or in this case, the massive amount of points thrown away by Alonso and Ferrari)? Me or you?


Pretty sure it is you. Look at the initial post that you were responding to.

#804 gillesthegenius

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 17:22

Pretty sure it is you. Look at the initial post that you were responding to.


Then why didn't you address that point when you initially responded to me?

And what's wrong with me finding someone's claim that Vettel was crying while leading the championship in an inferior car to be :cool:?

#805 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 17:31

Then why didn't you address that point when you initially responded to me?


Because i addressed a different point, where you claimed the Red Bull to be a clearly inferior car. Though seems like you've taken the part in italics out now.  ;)

And what's wrong with me finding someone's claim that Vettel was crying while leading the championship in an inferior car to be :cool:?


I don't see what relevance the current championship standings have in relation to Vettel not being happy with the tyres in this race.

And i'm sure Vettel (like any other driver) only cares about being top of the championship standings after round 19, and not round 5.


#806 gillesthegenius

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 17:36

Because i addressed a different point, where you claimed the Red Bull to be a clearly inferior car. Though seems like you've taken the part in italics out now. ;)


I thought that the fact that you side stepped my point regarding my claim made it 'clear' to you. :p

#807 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 17:38

I thought that the fact that you side stepped my point regarding my claim made it 'clear' to you. :p


Yes it did. I wasn't missing the point. You were.

How come you ignored the other part of my post?

#808 Sakae

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 17:52

Yes. The tires are the reason for his defeat. Specially the tires as managed by Alonso, Raikkonen and Massa

Now that's not very apt or accurate answer, is it?

#809 fabr68

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 17:59

Now that's not very apt or accurate answer, is it?


Blaming the tires for poor performance is the same as blaming the car as an excuse for your teammate beating you. The tires are the same for everyone.

I know the reason Vettel said that is because Red Bull is one of the few team with the agenda to campaign against Pirelli in order to push for a change on their tires so thei suit their car better.

Regardless of the tires, Vettel did a great job with what he's got. He finished 4th and salvage amazing points. No need to look for excuses or blaming what everyone uses to compete. The car needs to improve, and I am sure it will without the need of political games.

#810 Sakae

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 18:22

Blaming the tires for poor performance is the same as blaming the car as an excuse for your teammate beating you. The tires are the same for everyone.


That's simply wrong. Tires are delivered randomly in similar performance to teams, but cars were (a) built before tire was delivered, (b) cars are inherently different, thus tires perform differently on different cars, and driver nowadays has very little influence over that. Nothing is the same.

Edited by Sakae, 12 May 2013 - 18:23.


#811 fabr68

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 18:24

That's simply wrong. Tires are delivered randomly in similar performance to teams, but cars were (a) built before tire was delivered, (b) cars are inherently different, thus tires perform differently on different cars, and driver nowadays has very little influence over that. Nothing is the same.


Exactly. And Vettel should blame himself/his car and not the tires.

Edited by fabr68, 12 May 2013 - 18:24.


#812 EvanRainer

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 18:39

fabr68, you are not getting it.

No one is "crying" about the tyres or using excuses. The fact that the tyres play a huge role right now is simply factual.

In the Ferrari thread, you seem to be implying that Ferrari somehow has done a better job preparing for the tyres and should get credit for it. Mate, no one is saying if Ferrari wins the title they won't deserve it but come on. No one designed their car around the tyres, you don't get the chance to. Ferrari, due to the change in construction of the tires, has simply lucked out more than others in them suiting their car a lot in front limited circuits. This was due to pre-existing characteristics of the Ferrari car not any amazing work they did.

I give all credit to the guys at Ferrari and every other team for the incredible hard work they do but stop demanding credit that isn't due.

#813 EvanRainer

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 18:41

If RBR is complaining, is because they have built the car with the best downforce, WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DO and are being hampered because of the CONSTRUCTION, NOT simple degradation levels of a tyre that changed with no chance to design your car around to.

Edited by EvanRainer, 12 May 2013 - 18:41.


#814 fabr68

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 18:43

If RBR is complaining, is because they have built the car with the best downforce, WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DO and are being hampered because of the CONSTRUCTION, NOT simple degradation levels of a tyre that changed with no chance to design your car around to.


Ok I get it. Pirelli is supposed to design their tires so they suit Red Bull's car design the best.

Bad Pirelli....

Edited by fabr68, 12 May 2013 - 18:45.


#815 Sakae

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 18:46

Oh geez, it's just waste of time.

#816 Andy35

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 19:00

Is it me or has Webber given up now?

You can only take so much for so long of course.

Andy

#817 EvanRainer

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 19:06

Ok I get it. Pirelli is supposed to design their tires so they suit Red Bull's car design the best.

Bad Pirelli....


No they're not. It's fully understandable that every year whatever conditions will happen to favour one team or they other. It's up to them to try and adjust and I fully believe they will and come on top.

But them essentially saying "yeah we have a potentially really fast car we can't extract everything out of because of the tyres" is not "crying", it's simply being factual.

And OF COURSE, they might try and argue their way to change the tyres towards what better suits them, that's part of the game.

#818 Sakae

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 19:47

Is it me or has Webber given up now?

You can only take so much for so long of course.

Andy

Given up on what exactly? Racing in general, Vettel, WDC chase..?

#819 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 19:48

Is it me or has Webber given up now?

You can only take so much for so long of course.

Andy


His race was an improvement on Bahrain. What compromised him was yet another bad start.

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#820 joshb

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 21:44

His race was an improvement on Bahrain. What compromised him was yet another bad start.


Take out the end of his 2nd stint where he dropped back quickly to 15-20 secs behind Vettel, his next 3 stints, he was faster than Vettel (ended up 9 secs behind)
Had he made a good start, they could've been quite close on track

#821 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 09:16

How come you ignored the other part of my post?


gillesthegenius, you still didn't get back to me on this?

#822 Kelateboy

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 09:41

I'm not too worried. ever since pirelli came in, they are slow here in race pace, because it is a tyre eating track. unlike some of the upcoming tracks, where Vettel needs to show ferrari its place. :smoking:

I wish it was that simple that Catalunya is a tyre eating circuit not suitable to RBR cars, but last year despite all the issues in qualifying and the race, Vettel showed a lot of promise especially on his last stint. He overtook Button, Rosberg and Hamilton to finish 6th despite a drive through penalty and a pitstop to change his damaged front wing. He had such a dog of a car that he did not bother to qualify in Q3.

Yesterday, he showed none of the above. His car lacked pace or could not be pushed due to the tyres. He was in an enviable position after T1 after pulling an incredible move at the start on Alonso and Hamilton. He just could not execute the move for the lead as he did in Bahrain. He could have been on the podium if the team decided to cover Alonso rather than going for a 3-stopper. Of course we have the benefit of the hindsight that this strategy would not work but at that time, he was already losing so much time to Alonso and Massa by staying out longer.

After the tyre debacle in Australia, RBR showed their urgency and concern by running race simulation even in FP3. In Spain, they did not put that much effort in race simulation other than running 2 stints (1 on medium and the other on hard) in FP2. I think RBR overestimated the durability of those hard tyres here; that's why they were willing to gamble with a 3-stopper for Vettel.

The only good thing to come out of this GP is hearing Pirelli saying they will make some changes to the tyres by Silverstone.

#823 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 09:43

He was in an enviable position after T1 after pulling an incredible move at the start on Alonso and Hamilton.


Alonso was behind him.


#824 encircled

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 09:52

At least Monaco and Canada are not as front-limited as Barcelona, so I expect better race pace from the RB9. Obviously qualifying will be vital in Monaco but the Mercedes are really strong mechanically.

Canada is more of a stop-and-go so this should help the RB9. I just hope they will not try a one-stopper like they did last year though.

#825 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 09:55

At least Monaco and Canada are not as front-limited as Barcelona, so I expect better race pace from the RB9. Obviously qualifying will be vital in Monaco but the Mercedes are really strong mechanically.

Canada is more of a stop-and-go so this should help the RB9. I just hope they will not try a one-stopper like they did last year though.


For a track like Montreal, they should also try to setup the car to get a bit more top speed. Vettel struggled to pass Alonso immediately after the first round of stops last year.

Edited by TheThirdTenor1, 13 May 2013 - 09:56.


#826 encircled

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:00

I agree with that, but then are they really going to do it? I doubt they would.

#827 GVera

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 12:12

If RBR is complaining, is because they have built the car with the best downforce, WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DO and are being hampered because of the CONSTRUCTION, NOT simple degradation levels of a tyre that changed with no chance to design your car around to.



That's a very naive explanation. If too much downforce was the problem, just reducing the wings would fix it, and additionally make the Rb fast in the straights which they are not.
The whole car is agressive on the tyres.

RB were lucky in the past when they adapted perfectly to the Pirellis while other teams suffered trying to heat the tyres.

#828 EvanRainer

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 12:52

Are you serious? You say stuff like "just reducing the wings would fix it" and then call my post a naive explanation? LMAO. And they DO use skinny wings to what degree they can.

"RB were lucky in the past when they adapted perfectly to the Pirellis ".

First off, are you seriously suggesting that RBR does not have the best car for these rules (which is a fact evreyone knows), but have been "lucky" with the tyres?

Secondly, adapted perfectly to the Pirellis? Are you serious? They had higher degradation last year as well, they just simply adapted to it. They can't adapt to the construction of the tires that can't take high loads.

#829 plumtree

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 14:00

After the tyre debacle in Australia, RBR showed their urgency and concern by running race simulation even in FP3. In Spain, they did not put that much effort in race simulation other than running 2 stints (1 on medium and the other on hard) in FP2. I think RBR overestimated the durability of those hard tyres here; that's why they were willing to gamble with a 3-stopper for Vettel.

The only good thing to come out of this GP is hearing Pirelli saying they will make some changes to the tyres by Silverstone.

It was indeed odd. IIRC, Seb did the longer run(10) on Mediums and the shorter one(6) on Hards in FP2. I can't remember what program Mark was on. 6-5-6 timed lap in that order, presumably the first two on Mediums and the last one on Hards? My guess back then was that they either were sure about durability of new Hards for some reason or were thinking Mediums for race tyre - which didn't seem to make much sense but at the same time Paul Hembery suggested O-O-O-P would be the ideal strategy. The fact that they saved all Hard sets meant the former though.

Seb "... Die neuen harten Reifen haben uns dann aber nicht das gebracht, was wir uns eigentlich erhofft und gewünscht haben. Im Rennen hat sich sogar die weiche Mischung als besser herausgestellt. ..."
Web translator says "The new hard tires but then have not given us what we really hoped and wished. In the race, even the soft compound has been found to be better."

We saw a similar pattern in Malaysia actually. Massa felt that way with the previous one. (Felipe Massa says he also pushed for tyre compound change: "The [previous] hard compound was not really like a hard compound. The gap was not like a hard compound and the degradation was maybe worse than a medium.") Am I right in thinking New hards = last year's comfound + this year's construction? Seemingly the pattern is still there to some degree despite the change.

Spanish Grand Prix tyre strategies, according to the first comment:
Average medium stint = 12.17 laps, 56.65km (35.19mi), or 18.43% of the race.
Average hard stint = 13.83 laps, 64.37km (39.99mi), or 20.95% of the race.

Edited by plumtree, 13 May 2013 - 14:12.


#830 EvanRainer

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 14:43

Looking forward to Monaco, every time I think that the strategy should be straight forward I remember that at Monaco (and probably there more than anywhere else) you need to account for possible safety cars as well. So doing as few stops as possible as late as possible will still matter.

#831 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 20:05

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#832 Sakae

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 20:58

I wish it was that simple that Catalunya is a tyre eating circuit not suitable to RBR cars, but last year despite all the issues in qualifying and the race, Vettel showed a lot of promise especially on his last stint. He overtook Button, Rosberg and Hamilton to finish 6th despite a drive through penalty and a pitstop to change his damaged front wing. He had such a dog of a car that he did not bother to qualify in Q3.

Yesterday, he showed none of the above. His car lacked pace or could not be pushed due to the tyres. He was in an enviable position after T1 after pulling an incredible move at the start on Alonso and Hamilton. He just could not execute the move for the lead as he did in Bahrain. He could have been on the podium if the team decided to cover Alonso rather than going for a 3-stopper. Of course we have the benefit of the hindsight that this strategy would not work but at that time, he was already losing so much time to Alonso and Massa by staying out longer.

After the tyre debacle in Australia, RBR showed their urgency and concern by running race simulation even in FP3. In Spain, they did not put that much effort in race simulation other than running 2 stints (1 on medium and the other on hard) in FP2. I think RBR overestimated the durability of those hard tyres here; that's why they were willing to gamble with a 3-stopper for Vettel.

The only good thing to come out of this GP is hearing Pirelli saying they will make some changes to the tyres by Silverstone.



Changes on tires might be related to their construction (perhaps for safety reasons) - I am, of course speculating for last several weeks - since first suspected delamination.

#833 Kelateboy

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 04:29

Alonso was behind him.

In order to attack Hamilton, Vettel had to clear and move across Alonso who at one stage, was already closing in on his rear tyres. That was a risky move that could have resulted in Alonso/Vettel collision, but he timed and executed that move to perfection.

#834 Kelateboy

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 04:44

At least Monaco and Canada are not as front-limited as Barcelona, so I expect better race pace from the RB9. Obviously qualifying will be vital in Monaco but the Mercedes are really strong mechanically.

Canada is more of a stop-and-go so this should help the RB9. I just hope they will not try a one-stopper like they did last year though.

Alonso and F138 were supreme in China and Spain, both front limited circuits. Any other circuits qualify as front-limited in the remaining 14 races?

#835 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 07:28

In order to attack Hamilton, Vettel had to clear and move across Alonso who at one stage, was already closing in on his rear tyres. That was a risky move that could have resulted in Alonso/Vettel collision, but he timed and executed that move to perfection.


Well he got a tow from the 2 Mercedes which pulled him clear of Alonso. His move on Hamilton was excellent, but i don't really see any move on Alonso (who was always behind him).


#836 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 08:27

Alonso and F138 were supreme in China and Spain, both front limited circuits. Any other circuits qualify as front-limited in the remaining 14 races?


plenty. Silverstone, Suzuka, Spa, Interlagos and Hungaroring for sure.

Montreal, Singapore, Abu Dhabi and Monaco are definitely rear limited.

I think the rest are mostly typical Tilke tracks which have a mix of front limiting and rear limiting corners.

Edited by TheThirdTenor1, 14 May 2013 - 08:27.


#837 EvanRainer

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 08:41

I wouldn't call those front-limited necessarily. They are down force tracks, that's for sure. I don't see how Hungary is either. Don't teams always run in Hungary almost in Monaco spec?

Silverstone could be trouble but has more to do with potential low temperatures.

Overall I think it's looking more and more like you could actually use last year as a guide to what is probable to happen. A main change is that rain seems to really favor RBR this year(for obvious reasons) so while we were used to other teams hoping for it to mix things up and take away RBR's advantage, it's probably RBR that should be doing the rain dance this season.

#838 FPV GTHO

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 09:00

Depending how you look at it, Hungary can have higher downforce than Monaco given extra development time.

#839 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 09:05

I wouldn't call those front-limited necessarily. They are down force tracks, that's for sure. I don't see how Hungary is either. Don't teams always run in Hungary almost in Monaco spec?

Silverstone could be trouble but has more to do with potential low temperatures.

Overall I think it's looking more and more like you could actually use last year as a guide to what is probable to happen. A main change is that rain seems to really favor RBR this year(for obvious reasons) so while we were used to other teams hoping for it to mix things up and take away RBR's advantage, it's probably RBR that should be doing the rain dance this season.


tbh i was not 100% sure about Hungary. Teams usually run max. downforce because of lack of straights but i always noticed the corners there are quite long (especially turn 2, the final corner and the penultimate corner) so i thought that puts a lot of stress on the front tyres.

Yeh Silverstone and Nurburgring (and maybe Spa) could have high graining due to low temps.

I think Red Bull were quite strong in the wet last year too, especially after the Valencia update. Their qualifying in Silverstone and Hockenheim was very strong. However, they seem to have more of an advantage this year, but Ferrari also doesn't look bad in the wet, while Lotus definitely struggles in the wet.


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#840 Kelateboy

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 09:30

plenty. Silverstone, Suzuka, Spa, Interlagos and Hungaroring for sure.

Montreal, Singapore, Abu Dhabi and Monaco are definitely rear limited.

I think the rest are mostly typical Tilke tracks which have a mix of front limiting and rear limiting corners.

Is Interlagos a front limited circuit? I have always had the notion that this track is brutal on rear tyres, not front. This was what Bruno Senna said prior to the 2012 Brazilian GP and reported by Pirelli.com website - "The front tyres have a very easy time in Interlagos: they really don’t do much work."

I also disagree that Hungaroring is front limited. Last year, Pirelli used mediums and softs here. The track surface is extremely low-grip which induced unnecessary tyre wear from wheelspin. It is just another street circuit, albeit with permanent facilities.

I would add India and US as front limited circuits too. India because of banked turn 10 which put excessive pressure on front left tyres. The US circuit because it has a corner that is just a carbon-copy of Istanbul's Turn 8.





#841 Kelateboy

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 10:31

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/107421

Good news for RBR!

#842 Sakae

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 10:36

Has DM threaten Ecclestone with pulling out of F1? Rumor says that he did (in Spain).

#843 KTF1

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 10:38

Great news! :up: :up: :up: :up: So it seems that Pirelli have finally given in to the pressure :p  ;)

Edited by KTF1, 14 May 2013 - 10:41.


#844 CoinOperated

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:14

Has DM threaten Ecclestone with pulling out of F1? Rumor says that he did (in Spain).

I was about to ask how committed the 'Drinks Company' actually is to F1. As soon as they don't win every single race and start on pole position they start crying for changes.

They even had the opportunity to test the tyres in Brazil and again during the pre-season. If Newey really is that good he would have come up with a solution by now, you would think...

Edited by CoinOperated, 14 May 2013 - 11:15.


#845 EvanRainer

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:20

They have been trying to stop Red Bull by any means over the last few seasons and it really is freaking annoying.

Why can't the just accept that Red Bull just is the best with this set of rules. They won this battle.

We are getting a completely new formula next year that will change things around, what more do they want?

#846 OneAndOnly

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:30

They have been trying to stop Red Bull by any means over the last few seasons and it really is freaking annoying.

Why can't the just accept that Red Bull just is the best with this set of rules. They won this battle.

We are getting a completely new formula next year that will change things around, what more do they want?

They tried to stop them by giving them all same tires? Yeah it makes sense :rolleyes:

#847 Scudetto

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:37

They even had the opportunity to test the tyres in Brazil and again during the pre-season. If Newey really is that good he would have come up with a solution by now, you would think...


Easier to throw toys and cry it would seem. What a profound lack of testicular fortitude by Hembrey.

#848 Tosh

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 12:20

They have been trying to stop Red Bull by any means over the last few seasons and it really is freaking annoying.

Why can't the just accept that Red Bull just is the best with this set of rules. They won this battle.

We are getting a completely new formula next year that will change things around, what more do they want?


What is "freaking annoying" is that you think that way :) Everybody knew that there is gonna be a change in the structure after the season finale. Everybody had the chance to TEST these tyres in the pre-season. Everybody had troubles with the tyres back then but nobody complained that much. And suddenly the tears from RBR start to fall even after their 2 wins and leading the championships:) I guess their plan was to lead with something like 80 pts like 2011.

#849 plumtree

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 12:36

What is "freaking annoying" is that you think that way :) Everybody knew that there is gonna be a change in the structure after the season finale. Everybody had the chance to TEST these tyres in the pre-season. Everybody had troubles with the tyres back then but nobody complained that much. And suddenly the tears from RBR start to fall even after their 2 wins and leading the championships:) I guess their plan was to lead with something like 80 pts like 2011.

Everybody knew the change were coming but had no idea what kind of characteristics of them would be.
I remember plenty of complaints during the winter testing. But back then Pirelli assured the excessive tyre wear was due to the abnormally low temperatures and there wouldn't be such problems once the season started. The fact that they already brought in new hards because the previous one degraded too much in lowish but still not outlandish low temperatures demonstrates there were actual issues which needed to be rectified.

Hembery admits they got them wrong. http://en.espnf1.com...ory/108038.html
"We're looking at compounds and structure, and the idea is obviously to get back to our two/three stop strategies," Hembery said. "What you've got at the moment is a combination of the cars are really going hard - much harder than we had anticipated, big steps forward in performance - together with a structure that pushes very heavily the compounds. It's a very aggressive structure in the corners and you're pushing the compounds beyond the limits.

http://edition.cnn.c...nish-grand-prix
Pirelli admit tire testing 'inadequacies' - "Winter tests are inadequate and carried out in conditions far from the reality of the season's races,"

http://www.express.c...ms-tyre-quality
Bernie: “The tyres are wrong, not what we intended when we asked Pirelli to produce something which did a half race,”

Edited by plumtree, 14 May 2013 - 12:45.


#850 EvanRainer

EvanRainer
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Posted 14 May 2013 - 12:40

plumtree said it all really.

Also, if all it well if everyone has the same tyres, no reason to complain about the changes now then. Everyone gets the same tyres.