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The RB9 - Red Bull Racing's challenger for 2013


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#1001 Zava

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 13:57

I suppose that's good news for the team for silverstone and hungary:

Adam Cooper ‏@adamcooperf1 13m
Meanwhile future tyre choices are: GB, hard + med; GER, med + soft; HUN, hard + med

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#1002 encircled

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 14:09

So 2-3 stops could be in line for Silverstone then. They had the benefit of new tires last year in the race so maybe 3 stops is the better strategy for the race.

RBR might go back to their earlier strategy in the season and preserve the Hard tires in qualifying, as long as it will be a dry session. Hard tires was the better race tire last year IIRC.

Edited by encircled, 13 June 2013 - 14:22.


#1003 Kelateboy

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 15:30

I suppose that's good news for the team for silverstone and hungary:

Adam Cooper ‏@adamcooperf1 13m
Meanwhile future tyre choices are: GB, hard + med; GER, med + soft; HUN, hard + med

Good news all around for RBR. To me, Pirelli is sending messages to all the teams that you may not want to change the tyres, but we could still ensure a 2-3 stopper by going for one compound harder as opposed to the previous years.

SILVERSTONE 2012 - hard, soft ; 2013 - hard, medium
HUNGARY 2012 - medium, soft ; 2013 - hard, medium

The choice of medium and soft for Nurburgring is also a conservative choice, IMO. Should really work in RBR's favor for all 3 circuits.



#1004 encircled

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 18:12

Good news all around for RBR. To me, Pirelli is sending messages to all the teams that you may not want to change the tyres, but we could still ensure a 2-3 stopper by going for one compound harder as opposed to the previous years.

SILVERSTONE 2012 - hard, soft ; 2013 - hard, medium
HUNGARY 2012 - medium, soft ; 2013 - hard, medium

The choice of medium and soft for Nurburgring is also a conservative choice, IMO. Should really work in RBR's favor for all 3 circuits.

Yeah, Pirelli it seems are sending a message.

From their tire nomination Press Release

NO CONSTRUCTION CHANGES DUE TO LACK OF TEAM SUPPORT


http://www.pirelli.c...p-to-hungary-2/

#1005 Trust

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 18:24

Good news all around for RBR. To me, Pirelli is sending messages to all the teams that you may not want to change the tyres, but we could still ensure a 2-3 stopper by going for one compound harder as opposed to the previous years.

SILVERSTONE 2012 - hard, soft ; 2013 - hard, medium
HUNGARY 2012 - medium, soft ; 2013 - hard, medium

The choice of medium and soft for Nurburgring is also a conservative choice, IMO. Should really work in RBR's favor for all 3 circuits.

But wasn't something changed in 2013's compounds? IIRC, the new hard should be last year's medium, and new medium last year's soft.?

#1006 encircled

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 18:29

But wasn't something changed in 2013's compounds? IIRC, the new hard should be last year's medium, and new medium last year's soft.?


From Pirelli's Press Release

For Hungary Pirelli will bring the P Zero Orange hard and P Zero White medium compounds. Hungary is the slowest permanent track on the calendar but it still places a lot of demands on the tyres due to its twisty layout, which means that the tyres move around much more than on a fast and flowing track. This combined with often high ambient temperatures make the hard and medium compounds the best choice for this track, given that this year’s compounds are softer than last year’s range across the board.



#1007 Trust

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 19:23

So technically, Hungary is the same, but Silverstone will be a little riskier with softer compounds.

#1008 EvanRainer

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 20:10

Red Bull doesn't have as much of a problem with the compounds anyway. They'll take pole on the softs at Silverstone then get rid of it and use the med for most of the race. Assuming no rain of course.

#1009 Kelateboy

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 04:17

So technically, Hungary is the same, but Silverstone will be a little riskier with softer compounds.

This year's tyre compounds are softer than last year. For example, this year's hards were last year's mediums, this year's mediums were last year softs, etc. The main difference other than steel belted construction is that 2013 tyres have stiffer shoulder, but softer side wall.

However in Spain, Pirelli introduced the same experimental hard tyres that were used in friday practices in Brazil. These tyres were slightly softer than 2012 hards, but harder than 2013 tyres ran in the first four (4) races. Any time Pirelli goes for a harder compound (primes/options) compared to last year like Hungary, then RBR should not have too much to worry about tyres degradation/graining as essentially they were the "same" tyres with rather similar durability. At Silverstone, the primes will be a bit softer compared to 2012, but the options are generally of similar durability (soft 2012/medium 2013).



#1010 peroa

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 11:02

According to amus Newey has a complete rear end re-design in the works.

#1011 Bleu

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 11:30

Surprised with Hungary choices. Didn't expect hard there, medium/soft would have been my prediction.

#1012 encircled

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 13:45

German GP also confirmed to have 2 DRS zones.

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#1013 northanmonkee

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 15:14

Craig Scarborough ‏@ScarbsF1 11m
Interesting debate on the cause of the odd tyre marks from the Red Bull in Canada http://www.f1technic...=436442#p436442 … @f1technical #HereWeGoAgain

#1014 Kelateboy

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:36

German GP also confirmed to have 2 DRS zones.

Other than Suzuka and Monaco, all the other circuits will feature 2 DRS zones this year.

#1015 Kelateboy

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:57

As expected, Lotus has criticized Pirelli's "very conservative" tyre choices at Hungarooring.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/22905355

Lotus's Alan Permane said the decision to take the medium and hard tyres to Hungary was "very conservative".

"It's unusual to take the same tyres to Hungary as to Bahrain and Silverstone," Permane said.

"We didn't have those tyres last year. We had medium and soft last year and people did two stops. So it absolutely doesn't make sense - they're too hard for that track."





#1016 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 18:18

Other than Suzuka and Monaco, all the other circuits will feature 2 DRS zones this year.

Suzuka only one? What a shame... I would have thought that two zones were a natural choice there (before 130R and then the main straight)

#1017 Obi Offiah

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 21:02

As expected, Lotus has criticized Pirelli's "very conservative" tyre choices at Hungarooring.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/22905355

Lotus's Alan Permane said the decision to take the medium and hard tyres to Hungary was "very conservative".

"It's unusual to take the same tyres to Hungary as to Bahrain and Silverstone," Permane said.

"We didn't have those tyres last year. We had medium and soft last year and people did two stops. So it absolutely doesn't make sense - they're too hard for that track."

Weren't Lotus the team who not so long ago would usually respond to anything tyre related with something along the lines of 'it's the same for everyone.........'. So what has changed?

#1018 Kelateboy

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 03:32

Weren't Lotus the team who not so long ago would usually respond to anything tyre related with something along the lines of 'it's the same for everyone.........'. So what has changed?

In the immortal words of Paul Hembery - "The tyres are more aggressive this year. They've all got the same - get on with it."

Lotus' issues are well documented, they have exactly the opposite problems of Mercedes. But whether you have overheated/underheated tyres, the result is still the same. And by the look of it, Lotus' problems with Pirelli's conservative choices will become more pronounced in future races. After the summer break, Pirelli might only go for non-hard tyres (primes) for the 2 street circuits of Singapore and Korea and the super-smooth Abu Dhabi circuit; the rest of the remaining circuits might utilize hards.

How is that going to affect Lotus? Nobody knows. But I think they should be able to get on top of these tyres issues very soon, as I expect all the front running teams to be able to do with the exception of Mercedes. :D

#1019 sanW10

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 04:48

Craig Scarborough ‏@ScarbsF1 11m
Interesting debate on the cause of the odd tyre marks from the Red Bull in Canada http://www.f1technic...=436442#p436442 … @f1technical #HereWeGoAgain

Anyone else think it's the rev-limiter?

There's a long black stripe away from the apex (as the wheels break traction and spin up), then the short lines start to appear.
As far as I know (and I might be wrong) the rev limiter cuts ignition after a certain RPM to stop the engine spinning up even more, and brings it up again after a brief period. The black bits are formed as the engine starts producing torque, at which point the wheels immediately break traction and spin; the clear bits when the ignition has been cut by the software and the wheels gain traction with the road. Hence your stripes. They go away when Webber changes gear.

Nothing complicated really.

is this the reason?
post

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#1020 Kelateboy

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 12:45

http://www.pitpass.c...hnical-Analysis

RB9 updates in Canada.

#1021 kenkip

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 16:55

So how are we calling this one chaps?RBR should be strong here but I dont think Seb and Mark can push like Montreal because of the Silverstone surface.Weather looking dry so pole will be difficult wutg the Mercs around.
A good result expected all things held constant.
BTW on a separate issue are the two drivers on talking terms?Seems like the multi 21 gate is past them.

#1022 Kelateboy

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 13:43

I'd say RBR have a pretty good chance of being extremely competitive at Silverstone. They can't kill the tyres by going banzai every single lap like they did in Canada, or tip-toeing around the circuit like they were forced to do in Spain and China, but they will survive this circuit. The circuit is hard on front tyres, but won't be to the extent of Spain and China and RBR must have learned something about the tyres in Canada as claimed by Horner. I am hoping that the new bonding process will make the tyres sturdier, but that could simply be wishful thinking. The expected low temperature (22C reported by Formula1.com website) on race day should help the tyres with thermal degradation.

The top speed of around 314kph means that RBR will once again short-geared for the circuit. There is no chance of bouncing off the rev-limiter. In the dry FP3 last year, Vettel was only 2.8kph down on the fastest guy at the speed trap.

If it is dry qualifying, I believe the Mercedes duo shall lock out the front row. If it rains, then it is a crap shoot. But for the RBR, a wet qualifying would be a much preferred since they have a better chance of being further up the grid.

Alonso v Raikkonen v Vettel for the win.




#1023 encircled

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 17:16

Hmm, looks like weather will be a lottery again. :D

IMO, whether it is dry or wet in qualifying, I think it will be a battle between RBR and Merc for pole. With the slight advantage for Merc in the dry and RBR in the wet.

#1024 encircled

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 15:03

Long run pace seemed pretty good.

#1025 Cool Beans

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 15:15

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#1026 One

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 20:05

is this the reason?
post


Is there any statement made by FIA or FOTA (non existant) or from Mercedes enquiringly on Red Bull legality?
After watching Red Bull going hard in accusing Mercedes in public while Mercedes had enough reason to believe their behavior, I do not mid looking at challenge from Mercedes on legality of Red Bull's RB9.

Don't fan's want this (presence of) illegal traction control on RB9 to be made black and white?

#1027 Kelateboy

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 03:07

Is there any statement made by FIA or FOTA (non existant) or from Mercedes enquiringly on Red Bull legality?
After watching Red Bull going hard in accusing Mercedes in public while Mercedes had enough reason to believe their behavior, I do not mid looking at challenge from Mercedes on legality of Red Bull's RB9.

Don't fan's want this (presence of) illegal traction control on RB9 to be made black and white?

The rival teams could protest RBR's cars if any of them feels that there is a valid ground to lodge such protest. In which case, the same process as tyre-gate would take place. Since we don't hear anything from the rival teams about this issue anymore, it is safe to assume that they don't think the traction control is at work in this instance.

However, if the FIA considers such protest to be of trivial nature and was done without any ground, the team protesting could bear the brunt of FIA's wrath for abusing the process.

#1028 Kelateboy

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 03:17

FP2 - air temperature 21C; track temperature 19C-20C

Vettel's long run pace looked really good. On hards, he was on a 9-timed lap stint, and the sky commentators even mentioned that his front tyres were in "mint" condition after 2 stints and 11 timed laps. Very consistent lap times throughout.

On mediums, Vettel had a 6-timed lap stint. He was consistently over 1 - 1.5s faster on mediums that on hards. Not much degradation on the front tyres after 9 timed laps, 2 out laps and 2 in laps on the medium set.

Vettel was clocked at 302.3kph vs the top speed of 308.6kph by Bianchi. He needs to up his efforts in the final sector.

#1029 Afterburner

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 03:59

FP2 - air temperature 21C; track temperature 19C-20C

Vettel's long run pace looked really good. On hards, he was on a 9-timed lap stint, and the sky commentators even mentioned that his front tyres were in "mint" condition after 2 stints and 11 timed laps. Very consistent lap times throughout.

On mediums, Vettel had a 6-timed lap stint. He was consistently over 1 - 1.5s faster on mediums that on hards. Not much degradation on the front tyres after 9 timed laps, 2 out laps and 2 in laps on the medium set.

Vettel was clocked at 302.3kph vs the top speed of 308.6kph by Bianchi. He needs to up his efforts in the final sector.

Thanks for the analysis--fingers crossed for a good result. :up:

#1030 One

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 09:14

The rival teams could protest RBR's cars if any of them feels that there is a valid ground to lodge such protest. In which case, the same process as tyre-gate would take place. Since we don't hear anything from the rival teams about this issue anymore, it is safe to assume that they don't think the traction control is at work in this instance.

However, if the FIA considers such protest to be of trivial nature and was done without any ground, the team protesting could bear the brunt of FIA's wrath for abusing the process.


Good answer.

So who wants it cleared? Fans for sure!

1. All team considering similar system. When the implementation of new system is conceivable then teams to enquirer legality.
2. All teams decide no benefit for 2013, but for 2014, then keep it egged...
...

#1031 st99

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 11:31

Good answer.

So who wants it cleared? Fans for sure!

1. All team considering similar system. When the implementation of new system is conceivable then teams to enquirer legality.
2. All teams decide no benefit for 2013, but for 2014, then keep it egged...
...


If you're talking about the marks left in Canada, you can see on the thread open for that photos of Rosberg and Sutil leaving them as well, so nobody thinks is TC anymore, even some technical analysts (https://twitter.com/ScarbsF1) said it was "just drivetrain oscillation causing a momentary change in toque at the wheels".

Edited by st99, 29 June 2013 - 11:32.


#1032 Kelateboy

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 11:55

I am expecting a 2nd row start for Sebastian if it stays dry in the qualifying. The Mercedes duo just look awesome and should lock out the front row.

Even beating Webber here for P3 might prove a tall order for the World Champion. My crystal ball still says P3 for the triple WC. :)

#1033 encircled

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 11:59

Yeah, those two Mercedes are so quick. But if Seb can secure a front-row start, it will be amazing already.

#1034 Kelateboy

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 12:24

Yeah, those two Mercedes are so quick. But if Seb can secure a front-row start, it will be amazing already.

The worst part of it is that their race simulation runs looked awfully quick too with not much tyre issues. MGP is more of a threat to me than the 2 Ferraris.

#1035 encircled

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 13:04

Well, I guess good effort from both Seb and Mark. Just didn't have the pace today vs the Silver Arrows. Seb could have improved his S1 time though.

#1036 Disgrace

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 13:08

You have to hand it to Red Bull. They're consistently in the best position to take advantage of Mercedes' inferior race pace whilst Lotus and Ferrari falter. It makes them look less dominant than they actually are.

#1037 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 13:09

Mercedes have the upper hand in terms of one lap pace but tomorrow I'm sure Red Bull will take victory judging by the long runs on Friday and in FP3.

Vettel in the prime position to capitalise on Mercedes inferior race pace :up:

#1038 encircled

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 13:11

Yes, Seb is in a great position, especially that Kimi and Alonso will start on row 5.

As for the race, I am not sure if RBR has enough to overtake Mercedes during the race. Mercedes race pace seemed decent to me. RBR are also down by about 5.5 km/h in the speed trap so we'll see. It will be crucial though if Seb can jump Nico at the start and maybe undercut the Mercedes during the first phase of pit stops if he cannot get past the Mercedes during the first stint.

Edited by encircled, 29 June 2013 - 13:23.


#1039 Kelateboy

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 13:24

As expected, Lewis and Niko are in the league of their own. Vettel pipped Webber by just 0.009s, and he made it all up in the final sector.

I am hoping MGP would run into tyre problems tomorrow. But if their pace in FP2 and FP3 is anything to go by, they will win tomorrow's race.

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#1040 apoka

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 13:32

Good position of the RBs, in particular for Vettel (for the WDC). However, I fear that with the pace Merc had today they could be hard to overtake tomorrow even with slower race pace of the Mercs.


#1041 Kelateboy

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 14:36

Good position of the RBs, in particular for Vettel (for the WDC). However, I fear that with the pace Merc had today they could be hard to overtake tomorrow even with slower race pace of the Mercs.

It is always hard to overtake at Silverstone. But Vettel is only 5.7kph down on Hamilton and Rosberg and there are 2 DRS zones. DRS is supposed to add about 15kph to the top speed. So, the chance to execute DRS passing is still there, albeit a remote one.

#1042 Sakae

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 14:46

Sebastian for rest of the season hopefully will strive to stay on podium. On long run I am not anymore convinced that Lotus will recover, thus Kimi might fall back, and future is not so clear anymore in terms who will become his main competitor. Right now it could come down to two Mercedes cars, maybe one of Ferraris, and as long as group-mix is dynamic with each new race, those three can take points from each other, thus all what Seb needs to do is to stay away from trouble, stay current, and keep collecting healthy dose of points as well. If Mercedes stays alive in tomorrow race, or even if they win, than they might be in contention for rest of the season.

#1043 Kelateboy

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 14:59

Sebastian for rest of the season hopefully will strive to stay on podium. On long run I am not anymore convinced that Lotus will recover, thus Kimi might fall back, and future is not so clear anymore in terms who will become his main competitor. Right now it could come down to two Mercedes cars, maybe one of Ferraris, and as long as group-mix is dynamic with each new race, those three can take points from each other, thus all what Seb needs to do is to stay away from trouble, stay current, and keep collecting healthy dose of points as well. If Mercedes stays alive in tomorrow race, or even if they win, than they might be in contention for rest of the season.

Be careful of those Mercedes. The moment they got on top of their tyre woes, they will be a tough match for RBR, even tougher than Ferrari and Lotus. If Mercedes wins British GP, they will be RBR's main threat for the rest of the year and not Ferrari or Lotus; and Lewis will overtake Alonso as Vettel's main rival for the WDC.

#1044 Sakae

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 15:02

Be careful of those Mercedes. The moment they got on top of their tyre woes, they will be a tough match for RBR, even tougher than Ferrari and Lotus. If Mercedes wins British GP, they will be RBR's main threat for the rest of the year and not Ferrari or Lotus; and Lewis will overtake Alonso as Vettel's main rival for the WDC.

...that's what I meant by - be in contention.

#1045 Kelateboy

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 15:07

...that's what I meant by - be in contention.

OK, I guess I was not paying too much attention while typing and watching Wimbledon.

#1046 tsk19xx

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 16:07

It is always hard to overtake at Silverstone. But Vettel is only 5.7kph down on Hamilton and Rosberg and there are 2 DRS zones. DRS is supposed to add about 15kph to the top speed. So, the chance to execute DRS passing is still there, albeit a remote one.


The Mercedes are doing 301(at the old pit straight) without DRS, while the Redbulls are doing 303 with DRS. Unless the Mercedes run into serious tyre problems, or Vettel gets them during his super opening laps, he will have his work cut out trying to get past them. Ferrari and to a lesser extent the Lotuses are still in the hunt if they can look after their tyres.

#1047 plumtree

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 17:00

Agree Merc could turn into a serious threat. Disagree about playing it safe strategy. We've learned even 40-odd points lead after summer break isn't enough. To me the championship is still well open and I'm a believer in Seb's one race at a time approach.

“The first thing I do after a race when they give me the results is I rip off the championship standing and focus on the rest because that’s what matters for the next race.
“I am trying consciously to keep things simple. We have 20 races. If you manage to maximize all of those, then you have a good chance of winning the championship in the end.”
“The bottom line is I don’t have any tactics or strategy towards other ­people. I’m not a big fan right now of ­focusing on the championship.
“Don’t get me wrong, I’m not stupid, but really right now the best is to focus race by race and if there is a gap, dive into it and don’t think twice.

#1048 Sakae

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 18:42

Sure, he should get every point he can within normal boundaries of risk, but he doesn't has to do point-less purple laps, and similar stunts. Not now anyway.

#1049 Kelateboy

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 05:00

Agree Merc could turn into a serious threat. Disagree about playing it safe strategy. We've learned even 40-odd points lead after summer break isn't enough. To me the championship is still well open and I'm a believer in Seb's one race at a time approach.

“The first thing I do after a race when they give me the results is I rip off the championship standing and focus on the rest because that’s what matters for the next race.
“I am trying consciously to keep things simple. We have 20 races. If you manage to maximize all of those, then you have a good chance of winning the championship in the end.”
“The bottom line is I don’t have any tactics or strategy towards other ­people. I’m not a big fan right now of ­focusing on the championship.
“Don’t get me wrong, I’m not stupid, but really right now the best is to focus race by race and if there is a gap, dive into it and don’t think twice.

Mercedes are a real threat if they have already sorted their tyres out given there are still 12 GPs left for this year. Even Webber is quite optimistic of Mercedes' chances in this race.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/108419

British GP: Mark Webber doubts front row Mercedes pair will fade
By Jonathan Noble and Pablo Elizalde Saturday, June 29th 2013, 15:56 GMT

Mark Webber believes Mercedes is a real threat for victory in the British Grand Prix, despite the team playing down its chances after securing a commanding pole.

#1050 Sakae

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:09

Lighting struck in bad way, but RBR/Seb cannot afford anymore too many of those during a course of this season. No one can, points spread is at narrow margin. I am therefore moving to the next race. There is no point to analyze what happened, and as long as this is not going to get converted into a trend, future looks fine. I was first gutted, appalled by behavior at the track-side, had a cup of coffee, splash of cold water into face, and all is fine now.