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The RB9 - Red Bull Racing's challenger for 2013


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#101 plumtree

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 14:59

Long break.....

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#102 boldhakka

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 15:55

So they still seem to have two separate tunnels below the undercut, is that right?

#103 EvanRainer

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 16:02

Probably, though no one can be entirely sure as to exactly what is happening in there.

#104 H2H

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 17:26

Nice pics:

The V3.2 version of the RB8 had the big duct blowing the diffusor through the quite hidden hole marked by the green circle. You can also see the enclosed bronze-coloured drive shaft entering the big container wishbone:

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The RB9 should follow the same path and have it in the same locaton, under that big wishbone and the long vane sticking out (it had silver tape on the late RB8, black here). The vane of course manipulated also the airfoil coming out of that tunnel and is still on the RB9. You can only see the tunnelexit clearly from a very specific angle. From the front it is hard to spot but the edge is visible on this pic:

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The central tunnel seems to be quite longer and may interact with the monkey seat which obviously isn't present on the first RB8 pic.



To help you guys this is the RB8 again:

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P.S: Check out also the rear suspension, especially the upper wishbones. A considerable difference indeed.


An older post with the nice Scarbs drawings:

Glad you like it, I browsed throught the other car threads and they are not so much about the car. F1 technical is for this kind of stuff the far better forum, even if a good deal of the post is also not not interesting.

Most of the credit should go to smart guys designing the stuff and the clever people finding out about it. Scarbs especially has greatly influenced me. What surprised me is that so far nobody has seemingly openly taken notice how the "exhaust" (green circle) of the big duct has changed. But no doubt all the other teams know that all too well.

Post Valencia it was ducted like that:

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At the Korean GP. If you look carefully you can also see here how the packaging of the duct forced them to raise the level of the floor in "right" area, internally behind the sidepod and under the arms of the suspension. Original pic by AMuS.

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The second, smaller S-Duct should still blow the starter hole as it did in Valencia:

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Edited by H2H, 05 February 2013 - 17:40.


#105 H2H

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 17:49

Sorry for adding more pics:


According to the rendering the RB9 has at least two tunnels, like the RB8:

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Confirmed on the track...

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The sidepods feed the tunnel clearly far more progressively, tucking in a lot earlier. See it also from this angle:

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It is also a good pic to view that nose slot already spotted by Matt Somerfield. Here you have arguably the best one of this Sauberesque touch.

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From this angle the nose actually looks similar to the one of a certain animal, which shall not be named and is anyway already the trademark of another team...

Edited by H2H, 05 February 2013 - 18:12.


#106 plumtree

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 18:08

Thanks for the analysis and pics as always! I really enjoy reading your posts. :up:
I noticed the suspension rearrangement and something on the floor disappeared. :lol: Wish I were a bit more tech-savvy.

For comparison, rear suspension pics
McLaren http://i.imgur.com/Ax7ZdSI.jpg
Ferrari http://i.imgur.com/CChQuHP.jpg
Lotus http://i.imgur.com/dEl7diG.jpg
Mercedes http://i.imgur.com/SgRO8ob.jpg
Sauber http://i.imgur.com/j2y4lM0.jpg
Toro Rosso http://i.imgur.com/rendFDu.jpg


Edited by plumtree, 05 February 2013 - 18:17.


#107 H2H

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 18:21

Thanks for the analysis and pics as always! I really enjoy reading your posts. :up:
I noticed the suspension rearrangement and something on the floor disappeared. :lol: Wish I were a bit more tech-savvy.

For comparison, rear suspension pics
McLaren http://i.imgur.com/Ax7ZdSI.jpg
Ferrari http://i.imgur.com/CChQuHP.jpg
Lotus http://i.imgur.com/dEl7diG.jpg
Mercedes http://i.imgur.com/SgRO8ob.jpg
Sauber http://i.imgur.com/j2y4lM0.jpg
Toro Rosso http://i.imgur.com/rendFDu.jpg


Thanks and nice links :up:

I have maybe spotted something quite interesting but I will need at least one good shot to confirm or to reject it. We will hopefully see tomorrow.

P.S: Love the way the Sauber is blowing the starter hole and is designed around the rear tyre.

Edited by H2H, 05 February 2013 - 18:27.


#108 F.M.

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 18:45

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Damn, that purple makes the car look classy! :love:

#109 Rentta

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 18:53

Damn, that purple makes the car look classy! :love:

You mean glitterball ?
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Edited by Rentta, 05 February 2013 - 18:55.


#110 plumtree

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 19:44

Mark's first impression

"The car was very understeery today, so we need to improve that tonight and get it a little more responsive," Webber told reporters at Jerez.
"The car's not massively different. The last few years we've had regulation changes, but this year it feels pretty similar.
"The tyres are going away quite a bit," ... "But this track is always hard on tyres. You can always scare yourself here and then get to other places and it's OK."
(Full article: Mark Webber wants Red Bull to fix understeer

"It was pretty good. As Adrian said at the launch, there haven't been big changes to the regulations this year and the car is an evolution of the one we finished with last season, so there were no big surprises. I think most of the drivers will sit back tonight and think today's times were pretty competitive.
"It was actually like a Friday practice session in some regards. We started understanding the tyres and there were a lot of positives.There's a bit of housekeeping we have to get on top of but, other than that, it's been encouraging. The car feels similar to last year's, so the main difference is the tyres. With these tyres you're always on your toes. It was good that we had consistent temperatures today, so we got a lot of information and feedback to analyse, which is all good. Generally though, the car feels pretty good, so I'm happy." (Link)

#111 F.M.

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 20:02

Mark's first impression

"The car was very understeery today, so we need to improve that tonight and get it a little more responsive," Webber told reporters at Jerez.
"The car's not massively different. The last few years we've had regulation changes, but this year it feels pretty similar.
"The tyres are going away quite a bit," ... "But this track is always hard on tyres. You can always scare yourself here and then get to other places and it's OK."
(Full article: Mark Webber wants Red Bull to fix understeer

"It was pretty good. As Adrian said at the launch, there haven't been big changes to the regulations this year and the car is an evolution of the one we finished with last season, so there were no big surprises. I think most of the drivers will sit back tonight and think today's times were pretty competitive.
"It was actually like a Friday practice session in some regards. We started understanding the tyres and there were a lot of positives.There's a bit of housekeeping we have to get on top of but, other than that, it's been encouraging. The car feels similar to last year's, so the main difference is the tyres. With these tyres you're always on your toes. It was good that we had consistent temperatures today, so we got a lot of information and feedback to analyse, which is all good. Generally though, the car feels pretty good, so I'm happy." (Link)

Webber: The regulations haven't changed so much so we now have a Brazil car in Jerez

#112 EvanRainer

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 20:14

??

#113 plumtree

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 21:12

??

I guess what he meant was the car they brought to Jerez was practically RB8 with no big updates, then it's no wonder he didn't feel much difference. :p

It turned out that it was an actual quote.

“Obviously the lap times are quick but the regulations haven’t changed too much.”, “We now have a Brazil car in Jerez which, last time we were here, we had not even a Melbourne car. Basically this is the 21st Grand Prix, at Jerez. So it’s of course going to be a good step in performance from the last time we were at Jerez.” (Link - F1Fanatic)


Quotes from Gary Anderson on BBC live ticker:

"The car that seems to be causing the biggest stir up and down the pit lane at the moment is the Sauber, which has very narrow sidepods. A lot of engineers are interested to see how they've done that. The biggest issue will be cooling. Gary Anderson says there is an extra air intake by the one for the engine above the driver's head which ducts cooling air to parts that have been moved out of the sidepods further towards the back of the car to allow them to be so narrow."

"In addition to the chassis-top ridges Andrew has just mentioned below, Red Bull have also adopted a technology used by Sauber last year. If you look carefully, you can see a small slot behind the step on the top of the chassis. This connects up to a duct underneath the chassis, and sucks air through it. It is a good way of giving the front wing more room to work, and of tidying up the airflow on the top of the nose, too. Again, it's a small difference, but F1 design is about finding lots of small differences to make a big one."

* Bolded part - forgive me if I totally misunderstood it but doesn't RB9 have a similar feature, albeit a bit smaller?

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Among others, only MP4-28 seems to have it.

Edit: Scratch that. A few teams incl. McLaren/Mercedes appear to have had that last year.

Edited by plumtree, 05 February 2013 - 23:51.


#114 chumma

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 22:04

McLaren has had it for a few seasons now. Lots of understeer according to Mark.

#115 Mc_Silver

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 22:23

McLaren has had it for a few seasons now. Lots of understeer according to Mark.


Yep, Webber complained a bit about understeer

The car was really understeering so we need to try and improve that tonight and get the car a little bit more responsive. Also the tyres are going away.

“If you see a car on fresh tyres you see the performance is quite nice. If you look at a car on older tyres it doesn’t look very nice. The tyres are struggling to do quite a few laps, you see lap times in 22s, 23s. The naked eye can even see the problems.”




http://www.f1fanatic...irellis-faster/?

EDIT: Sorry, ıt was already shared by some others, i have just seen it :blush:

Edited by Mc_Silver, 05 February 2013 - 22:26.


#116 BenettonB192

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 23:22

Must say i didn't like the pink paint scheme when i first saw it but in daylight it looks quite nice.

#117 lbennie

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 00:12

Under-steering like a bitch and still within half a second of the 'incredible' mclaren.

Good times ahead :clap:

#118 Crossmax

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 00:50

Under-steering like a bitch and still within half a second of the 'incredible' mclaren.

Good times ahead :clap:

Fixed that for you.

#119 lbennie

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 01:22

thanks :blush:
haven't had my coffee this morning

still, looking very promising

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#120 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 03:45

Must say i didn't like the pink paint scheme when i first saw it but in daylight it looks quite nice.


(channels The Third Man)

Pink? That's Infiniti purple my friend and dont you f*cking forget it!

#121 sanjiro

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 03:51

I would not read too much into MWs comments on under-steer and tyre wear.
Both are problems he has had with the last 3 RBs at times when SV has been very happy with them.

#122 lbennie

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 04:02

https://fbcdn-sphoto...022911592_n.jpg

smug :cool:

#123 smoothcrim

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 04:07

https://fbcdn-sphoto...022911592_n.jpg

smug :cool:



Horner has the G force stretch marks around the outside of the eyes worse than most F1 drivers.He has aged alot in the last 5 years.

#124 pingualoty

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 04:08

https://fbcdn-sphoto...022911592_n.jpg

smug :cool:


I'm guessing he's smug as he's got the drivers wearing purple and he isnt :p

#125 lbennie

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 04:34

lol, indeed.

#126 H2H

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:28

Mark described himself in the RB6 manual as a driver a bit on the understeer side, so a lot of understeer could be quite a lot. How much the Pirellis changed that and in relative terms to Seb is difficult to know. All in all we had races where one driver was fine and the other not so much, in general with Mark having more troubles in the last years.

Personally I think the seemingly high amount of understeer might be positive, as it could show that they made a lot of progress at the rear from the last year. On the oher hand it could be negative, if they are trying out an old front wing which does confirm to the new deflection rules. Of course this is just the aero side with the balance of pressure, even if there is a lot of crossover to the mechanical side. in this case keep in mind that they changed the rear suspension somewhat and maybe also the castor up front. The Pirellis are also supposed to be new so we have another big factor there.

To sum it up I hope they gained a lot DF at the rear, lost nothing at the front understand the tyres quickly and keep driving a lot to get as much data as possible.

P.S: Does anybody remember when the RB7 got the ducts blowing directly into the diffusor? Maybe Jerez was never driven with a top RBR blown diffusor...

Edited by H2H, 06 February 2013 - 11:33.


#127 Zava

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:40

P.S: Does anybody remember when the RB7 got the ducts blowing directly into the diffusor? Maybe Jerez was never driven with a top RBR blown diffusor...

first test already, not sure if first or second day.

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why is there something which scarily looks like last years launch exhaust? :drunk: there is an opening under where the top rocker joins the body, and it even has a groove behind it... what the hell should that be, as I don't think they are running the car with 4 exhausts

#128 H2H

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:48

first test already, not sure if first or second day.

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why is there something which scarily looks like last years launch exhaust? :drunk: there is an opening under where the top rocker joins the body, and it even has a groove behind it... what the hell should that be, as I don't think they are running the car with 4 exhausts


This is just a access panel, just look at it from different angles . It would also make zero sense ;)

http://www.formule1....60075673.29.jpg

The E21 has the one (there should be two) exit of the tunnel in pretty much the same location as the RB8. So far I have seen no good pics from the RB9 of that area. It should be there and from what I have seen it is highly likely but those shadows and the black make it hard to be a 100% sure.

Edited by Gilles4Ever, 06 February 2013 - 11:52.


#129 V3TT3L

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:54

why is there something which scarily looks like last years launch exhaust? :drunk: there is an opening under where the top rocker joins the body, and it even has a groove behind it... what the hell should that be, as I don't think they are running the car with 4 exhausts

No, Newey is just playing with the low pressure zone created by the exhaust cone.
The hole under the rocker will suck a mass of cold air from the other side of the duct, below the exhaust duct and - somehow - increase the Coke Bottle effect and the total air mass through the diffusors.

So it is more efficient than a simple Naca Duct.

The fact that Webber complain of understeer could mean that it has so much downforce at the back that the rear doesn't slide much.

Scary :eek:

Or could be a Passive DRS duct.

Edited by V3TT3L, 06 February 2013 - 12:07.


#130 H2H

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:55

blackout of F1technical made that nice side-by-side:

http://i16.servimg.c...26/racepi11.jpg

The RB9 certainly seems have to be the more refined exhaust package, pretty much from the sidepod shaping to rear. Note the smaller pelican nose compared to the Lotus, I wonder where exactly the upper nose slot gets blown from, but last years Sauber solution should be a good guide.

P.S: They also seem to have put the tyre heat sensor, enclosed in the bulge of the floor in front of the rear tyre and outboard of the long vane, closer to tyre. Aero or data reasons?

Edited by H2H, 06 February 2013 - 12:04.


#131 stillOrange

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 12:05

blackout of F1technical made that nice side-by-side:

http://i16.servimg.c...26/racepi11.jpg

The RB9 certainly seems have to be the more refined exhaust package, pretty much from the sidepod shaping to rear. Note the smaller pelican nose compared to the Lotus, I wonder where exactly the upper nose slot gets blown from, but last years Sauber solution should be a good guide.


On this pic it looks like Lotus mounted the front part of the nose upside down, compared to RBR, with the bulge at the bottom  ;)

#132 H2H

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 15:55

@Zava: missed that response. So it could be a good sign, or it could be a bad sign. Who knows.

Excellent to see Mark doing so many laps. They need data, data and data. I'm pretty sure we won't have a surprise like last year with the exhaust, so in that area the RB9 should reflect the Oz car much more then the RB8 did in Jerez. Overall RBR has become a big team and is far less reliant on the sheer pace of the initial car then in 2010. It is arguably the team which does the best job at developing the car over the arc of the season.

@stillOrange: Yeah that Lotus nose looks indeed a bit like that. Not that the RB9 is a beauty in that area...

Edited by H2H, 06 February 2013 - 15:55.


#133 H2H

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 16:57

This should mark the exit of the big RB9 S-Duct/crosstunnel. It would be in the same location as the one of the RB8. Note the green vis-flow paint.

http://img38.imagesh...13600756707.jpg

#134 Zava

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 17:02

thanks for the pic!
now I also can see that my the thing I thought is an exhaust doesn't even stand out of the bodywork, just a flat removable panel. :D the groove behind it tricked me into seeing it more 3D-ish.

#135 plumtree

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 18:24

Whose car is this?
Posted Image


Jerez test day2 quotes, :wave:

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105457
"It was important to make the most of the conditions and we did that - we've pretty much done our programme and got all the information we needed to." ... "Our long runs, getting more confident with components on the car, went well too."
"In terms of consistency I was very happy with the last few days and myself. The car gives me the confidence to push, and we can certainly build from there in terms of development."


http://www1.skysport.../12475/8476114/
He said that gauging the car's performance over a long run was not a priority at such an early stage. "There's always performance stuff going on in the background but we want to make sure that we have a lot of systems checks,"


http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/21344814
Anderson: "Mark Webber is out doing a long run in the Red Bull at the moment. Because Jerez is so hard on the tyres, that will be less about tyre management over a race distance and more about reliability."

Benson: "Unsurprisingly, the Red Bull was quickly down to strong lap times and Mark Webber ended the first day second fastest. The Australian said the car had too much understeer - lack of front end grip - but overall was 'pretty good'."

Anderson: "I've been out on the track watching the cars and the Lotus continues to look very impressive. The front end is always there, the traction is good and Romain Grosjean is able to be committed on the throttle. Sergio Perez was on a long run in the McLaren and he was very consistent. It also looks pretty good. The Toro Rosso has lost its edge from yesterday - now the rear is moving too much, which was always their problem last year. Red Bull I believe are concentrating on reliability before some upgrades but at the moment it looks like a one-line car - if the driver misses the turn-in, it's hard to get the nose back on line. The Ferrari looks OK, but its tyres are going off more quickly than some others - and it's not always riding the bumps as well as the best."

Edited by plumtree, 06 February 2013 - 18:27.


#136 Sin

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 18:29

Must be Vettels.... got the sign of Frankfurt am Main and the little sticker shows the crest of Hesse

... but I thought he is from south Hesse... and lives in Switzerland... mh maybe Frankfurt am Main is just where the car is registered....

Dienstwagen :p I guess if somebody knows the term xD

Edited by Sin, 06 February 2013 - 18:30.


#137 ApexMouse

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 18:32

Bloody Germans and their terrible grammar. I must fly out to correct him at once.

#138 Sin

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 18:38

Bloody Germans and their terrible grammar. I must fly out to correct him at once.


You talking about me? If so how about you just tell me what I did wrong... also I'm not a 'him'

Edited by Sin, 06 February 2013 - 18:38.


#139 plumtree

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 18:43

Bloody Germans and their terrible grammar. I must fly out to correct him at once.

Don't blame him, I'm pretty sure someone in the team, and probably a Brit, told him that is right. :cat:
http://www.redbull.c...10x343a/RB9.jpg


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#140 F.M.

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 18:55

That's Vettel's company car :)

Edited by F.M., 06 February 2013 - 18:56.


#141 ApexMouse

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 19:26

You talking about me? If so how about you just tell me what I did wrong... also I'm not a 'him'


nononononono!!!! You misunderstand! All is well with your English (I didn't actually realize you were German, so it must be good!) I was referring to the most critical error on the tagline. :cat:

This mistake bodes unwell for the car, I think it will be 3secs off the pace at best.

Edited by ApexMouse, 06 February 2013 - 19:27.


#142 F.M.

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 19:36

nononononono!!!! You misunderstand! All is well with your English (I didn't actually realize you were German, so it must be good!) I was referring to the most critical error on the tagline. :cat:

This mistake bodes unwell for the car, I think it will be 3secs off the pace at best.

Yes, it should be "My other car is an RB9" since "RB9" (ArrrBeeNine) starts with a vowel when you pronounce it.

Edited by F.M., 06 February 2013 - 19:36.


#143 olliek88

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 19:48

Thats a tricky one, to me it sounds more like a consonant but it doesn't seem quite right with "a", "an" just sounds better!

Important stuff this...

#144 H2H

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 19:53

Yes, it should be "My other car is an RB9" since "RB9" (ArrrBeeNine) starts with a vowel when you pronounce it.


Given that it is an Infiniti car made by an Japanese company I guess those are to be blamed. I can not imagine that the driver wanted that bit there and this discussion proves that it does create attention and PR.

---

RBR has surprised us in the last years pretty much always towards the last days of the test. Adrian said that they are a little bit on the backfoot due to the long titlefight and it would not surprise me if the most interesting areo bits will only hit the track in the last days of the tests and possibly only at the race weekend. If I recall correctly Adrian also talked a bit about the new front wing test and that they were not quite sure about it's handling/implications. Getting the wing to flex as much as possible for the L over D within the tighter ruleset is no mean feat and takes a great deal of development work which wasn't relevant to the WDC fight last year.

That theory would fit with the reported understeer by Gary and Mark but if they just bolted on an old, now 'illegal' FW on the car the second part of the theory falls apart. In this case the finetuning work at the rear could have considerably raised the level of downforce there, moving the C of P back. There is no question which scenario I prefer to be true. :)

P.S: I did a bit of reading on the older RBR cars of the current evolutionary line and it does actually clarify some aspects of the RB8/9. For example the double deck diffusor ducts are in the same location which gets now blown by the big S-duct tunnel, while the current Coanda exhausts targets the same area as the ducted exhaust of the RB7. If you keep the basics in mind it is quite logical - with a lot of hindsight and the solution right in front of your nose.

Scarbs wrote the article 'Red Bull RB7 – Sidepods and Cooling' a long time ago but it helps to understand the internal flow management

P.P.S: This cooling duct might be the reason of that bulge in the engine cover in front of the upper wisbone...

Posted Image

Edited by H2H, 06 February 2013 - 20:08.


#145 muramasa

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 19:58

Given that it is an Infiniti car made by an Japanese company I guess those are to be blamed. I can not imagine that the driver wanted that bit there and this discussion proves that it does create attention and PR.

ha ha even then I bet the one who's actually responsible for that isnt Japanese :D

#146 Obi Offiah

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 20:11

Yes, it should be "My other car is an RB9" since "RB9" (ArrrBeeNine) starts with a vowel when you pronounce it.

It's probably written that way because RB9 is short for Red Bull 9, so........'My other car is a Red Bull 9'.

#147 F.M.

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 20:19

Given that it is an Infiniti car made by a Japanese company I guess those are to be blamed. I can not imagine that the driver wanted that bit there and this discussion proves that it does create attention and PR.

;)

It's probably written that way because RB9 is short for Red Bull 9, so........'My other car is a Red Bull 9'.

Doesn't matter. Grammar is grammar :)
Btw. I don't think anyone actually reads it as "Red Bull 9" but just as "ArrBeeNine" since the car is called Red Bull RB9 (with Infinity somewhere in there as well)

Edited by F.M., 06 February 2013 - 20:22.


#148 H2H

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 21:33

@F.M: un :p

---

I found at my last check of the day the angle I was looking for....

Same big tunnel exit location as on the good old RB8

Compare it to this pic of the RB8 (green circle)

Here is also the best front angle so far:

Sweet rear package

There are some other interesting aspects, but I will leave that for some other day. Learned a lot today, will make a break. Good to hear Mark speaking like that, especially at seems to be the truth:

Asked if he was happier with his progress in 2013, Webber said: "I think we are. It was very good day for the team in terms of how we worked and our preparation.

"It was important to make the most of the conditions and we did that - we've pretty much done our programme and got all the information we needed to.

"This morning's programme was ambitious but we pretty much nailed it. Our long runs, getting more confident with components on the car, went well too.

"In the end I was surprised with the amount of kilometres we did, it's quite good.

"We certainly learned a lot more than yesterday, and we'll learn more again tomorrow when Sebastian takes over.

"In terms of consistency I was very happy with the last few days and myself. The car gives me the confidence to push, and we can certainly build from there in terms of development."


Edited by H2H, 06 February 2013 - 21:41.


#149 FPV GTHO

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 04:10

I would not read too much into MWs comments on under-steer and tyre wear.
Both are problems he has had with the last 3 RBs at times when SV has been very happy with them.


I would swear that its been the opposite, with Webber the more comfortable of the two with under steer and Vettel the more comfortable with oversteer.

I read something on this years tyres having more front bite. Perhaps there's something on the car protecting the rear tyres that needs to be wound back, or more likely without the definitive 2013 wings the aero profile is just not there as designed.

#150 lbennie

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 05:07

i've always thought webber like the tail a bit loose, and seb liked it more planted.

can't remember where I got that from though.