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Prost critical of Ferrari = sacked, Alonso critical... = ?


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#1 bluffalo

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 02:45

So in 1991 Prost was dropped from Ferrari for complaining etc about the car. We all know that Alonso continuously says the car isn't good enough, but Ferrari are agreeing with him, rather than dropping him or shutting him up. What are everyone's thoughts? Why did they do it once but not again?

note I am not against Alonso in anyway, I'm just curious as I remember reading about Prost way back when and it seems like a similar situation.

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#2 Barri

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 02:55

The difference between Alonso and Prost is Santander. However, Ferrari and Alonso seem to get along much better. As long as Alonso has the team working for him and his teammate forced to drive for him, he will be in harmony with the team. Let's hope he can win at least one championship driving for Ferrari.

Edited by Barri, 05 January 2013 - 02:58.


#3 Kingshark

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 03:02

Because Montezemolo knows the truth. He's been watching F1 this season, along with all of us. There's a reason Ferrari didn't win the championship this year, and everyone with some sense of honesty knows that it wasn't Fernando who was the problem.

#4 AlexS

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 03:48

The reason is that Ferrari changed its approach. Enzo wanted the drivers to push each other. At time of Prost 2-3 years after the death of Enzo still there wasn't a number one driver.
See for example what Mansell did to Prost at start of Portuguese GP...

That changed with Schumacher. Alonso is too a clear number one. And like said above Santander is also an important factor.

#5 George Costanza

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 03:50

The reason is that Ferrari changed its approach. Enzo wanted the drivers to push each other. At time of Prost 2-3 years after the death of Enzo still there wasn't a number one driver.
See for example what Mansell did to Prost at start of Portuguese GP...

That changed with Schumacher. Alonso is too a clear number one. And like said above Santander is also an important factor.


I very much doubt Enzo would have hired Michael if he were alive. Alonso, yes, I think Enzo would have hired him.

#6 404KF2

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 04:47

Schumacher said he thought the Mafia was sabotaging his Ferrari in the late 1990s but he didn't wake up beside a horse's head.

#7 teejay

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 05:33

21 years between comments.

Ferrari, F1, the world has changed alot.

#8 Afterburner

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 05:35

Perhaps it's because Alonso hasn't yet compared driving the Ferrari to driving a truck?

#9 404KF2

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 05:47

It certainly LOOKS like a truck....

#10 APR824

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 07:04

It certainly LOOKS like a truck....

In 2011, it was named AFTER a truck!

#11 spacekid

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:19

As others have said, it was over 20 years ago and things change. Also, I've heard Alonso say the Ferrari needs to improve, but I haven't heard him come anywhere close to the criticism Prost gave the car. He basically thought it was garbage and let everyone know about it - I haven't seen that from Alonso.

Also, weren't there rumours that Prost was planning on jumping ship to another team (because he thought the Ferrari was so awful) so they terminated his contract early?

#12 Mauseri

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:25

Let's hope he can win at least one championship driving for Ferrari.

I can well live without him winning a champinship driving a Ferrari.

Edited by Mauseri, 05 January 2013 - 11:25.


#13 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:46

Because Montezemolo knows the truth. He's been watching F1 this season, along with all of us. There's a reason Ferrari didn't win the championship this year, and everyone with some sense of honesty knows that it wasn't Fernando who was the problem.

That's true for all the the teams except red bull

#14 aditya-now

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:51

So in 1991 Prost was dropped from Ferrari for complaining etc about the car. We all know that Alonso continuously says the car isn't good enough, but Ferrari are agreeing with him, rather than dropping him or shutting him up. What are everyone's thoughts? Why did they do it once but not again?

note I am not against Alonso in anyway, I'm just curious as I remember reading about Prost way back when and it seems like a similar situation.


That is a good question. I myself got scared a little when Fernando continued to be critical of Ferrari throughout the season. We know Ferrari's reflexes well.

Yet, there is more to it than meets the eye. Having lived in Italy for over a year I must say that the press (Autosprint, La Gazetta dello Sport) has a big impact on Ferrari - a thing that already Niki Lauda knew very well. As long as the press stays happy with Alonso there is no danger for him. There were some signals, though, that they have started to really rate Vettel....paving the way for Seb to the Reds.

Besides, Fer knew how to differentiate his criticism: he said 1.) team is #1 2.) car reliability is #1 but 3.) the car is too slow. And with that justified and differentiated criticism he can not be ousted. Needless to say, Pat Fry is certainly not happy with that assessment, but he himself must know it's true. We saw some bad remarks from Fry about Alonso towards the end of the year, so there is something brewing between the two. Also, the car got modified in a way that seemed to suit Massa better than Alonso - and that is something to look out for. We have seen the same at Red Bull last year, how updates can favour one particular driver.

#15 H2H

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:00

Alonso did cause quite some stir within the team with his repeated heavy criticism while not conceding his personal errors and even getting enraged if it was pointed out semi-officially. Still he praises also the team as a whole and gives credit to some elements of it. So far it has worked well enough in a Ferrari which is quite different from the Prost days.

Edited by H2H, 05 January 2013 - 12:01.


#16 revlec

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:52

That is a good question. I myself got scared a little when Fernando continued to be critical of Ferrari throughout the season. We know Ferrari's reflexes well.

Yet, there is more to it than meets the eye. Having lived in Italy for over a year I must say that the press (Autosprint, La Gazetta dello Sport) has a big impact on Ferrari - a thing that already Niki Lauda knew very well. As long as the press stays happy with Alonso there is no danger for him. There were some signals, though, that they have started to really rate Vettel....paving the way for Seb to the Reds.

Besides, Fer knew how to differentiate his criticism: he said 1.) team is #1 2.) car reliability is #1 but 3.) the car is too slow. And with that justified and differentiated criticism he can not be ousted. Needless to say, Pat Fry is certainly not happy with that assessment, but he himself must know it's true. We saw some bad remarks from Fry about Alonso towards the end of the year, so there is something brewing between the two. Also, the car got modified in a way that seemed to suit Massa better than Alonso - and that is something to look out for. We have seen the same at Red Bull last year, how updates can favour one particular driver.


I live in Italy and I can guarantee you that some Ferrari guys were not happy with Alonso's comments about the car, particularly when he said he was competing against Newey, downplaying his own engineers's efforts.

Something has definitely changed, and Massa late performances made it worse. Remember what Ferrari did to Kimi and Schumacher when they thought there was a better driver available? They sacked them!

I know many will think I am crazy, but look very closely, and you will find that during their respective stints in Ferrari(3 years), Alonso and Raikkonen did win the exact same number of races(11), with the difference that Raikkonen won 1 WDC.

This year could be Alonso's last chance to win a WDC for Ferrari. If not, VET will be there in 2014(Montezemolo has been clear saying that VET and HAM are their targets. But he prefers VET because he is younger and could fit well).

Edited by revlec, 05 January 2013 - 12:58.


#17 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:57

Alonso seems to find his motivation from somewhere. Others could have wilted like Massa did early 2012.

I feel as long as Alonso has someone patting him on the back he will always be a formidable contender and driver. I also think if Massa recieved similar support he could be more than just a number 2 driver. We saw it in 2008.

#18 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 13:01

There is a credit card with the Ferrari logo, issued by Santander, which gives the scuderia a % of purchases made with the card...

I would guess that such a serious amount of money would allow them to ignore the constant complains of a car that was nowhere near as bad as their #1 driver tried to sell throughout the season.

Heck, a car on which Massa finishes in the podium or has to lift so that his teammate finishes ahead (As we saw often in the final races of the year) is, by no means, a "bad" car.

#19 spacekid

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 13:09

There is a credit card with the Ferrari logo, issued by Santander, which gives the scuderia a % of purchases made with the card...

I would guess that such a serious amount of money would allow them to ignore the constant complains of a car that was nowhere near as bad as their #1 driver tried to sell throughout the season.

Heck, a car on which Massa finishes in the podium or has to lift so that his teammate finishes ahead (As we saw often in the final races of the year) is, by no means, a "bad" car.


Hmmm. This pre-supposes that Massa is an average driver who was consistent during the season. I actually don't have an answer to that as I don't know, but I'm not sure about Massa being a reliable gauge performance wise.

The F2012 was dissapointing at the start of the season, the team knew it, the press knew it, the fans knew it, I don't think that was a controversial thing to acknowledge. To their credit Ferrari appeared to work hard and improved the car. The form between Alonso and Massa at the end of the season is a mystery to me!

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#20 2ms

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 13:12

Alonso isn't stupid. He knows he isn't going anywhere as long as Santander's still around. From the way he talks about Red Bull, it sounds like he would rather swap seats with Vettel anyway.

#21 rm111

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 13:16

21 years between comments.

Ferrari, F1, the world has changed alot.

Yep spot on.

#22 garoidb

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 14:39

I live in Italy and I can guarantee you that some Ferrari guys were not happy with Alonso's comments about the car, particularly when he said he was competing against Newey, downplaying his own engineers's efforts.

Something has definitely changed, and Massa late performances made it worse. Remember what Ferrari did to Kimi and Schumacher when they thought there was a better driver available? They sacked them!

I know many will think I am crazy, but look very closely, and you will find that during their respective stints in Ferrari(3 years), Alonso and Raikkonen did win the exact same number of races(11), with the difference that Raikkonen won 1 WDC.

This year could be Alonso's last chance to win a WDC for Ferrari. If not, VET will be there in 2014(Montezemolo has been clear saying that VET and HAM are their targets. But he prefers VET because he is younger and could fit well).


By this stage of his Ferrari career, Raikkonen had been replaced!

Alonso has a long contract at Ferrari (four more years?), but I would not be that surprised to see it end a year or two early (only if Vettel comes, I have not seen any mention of Hamilton as a possibility in several years and he was available this year). It would be excruciatingly expensive for Ferrari to buy Alonso out at this stage.

Just to be clear, I think Alonso is the best driver and Ferrari should try to keep him, but these near miss campaigns must take their toll on all concerned.

#23 prty

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 15:32

It's all a plan from Santander to control the world.

#24 Boing 2

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 16:17

The old Ferrari was riddled with politics, Enzo believed the best way to get the most from an employee was through fear, so he set all against each other. This led to engine guys blaming the chassis, chassis guys blaming aero, aero blaming engine and the drivers blaming all three. The team would bend to pressure from the media and fire a sacrificial lamb when times were bad meaning everyone passing the parcel of blame to someone else before the music stopped. Poor performance created a call for a sacrifice, high profile criticism at that point simply painted the target on your head.

One of the biggest reasons for Ferrari's resurgence was that Montezemelo recognized and addressed this in the early 90's, he appointed Todt to do the job of running the F1 team and refused to micro manage or interfere. Todt then made himself a political firewall, he took the heat from the press and refused to pass it on internally, refused to offer a sacrifice when demanded. Internally, Brawn then unified the departments in this new, less hostile environment and the team began to unite and pull together. The culture of sacking people to appease the press disappeared and the team became stable.

Short answer? that culture simply doesn't exist today, the team have learned what it takes to be successful and won't be going back to the old ways anytime soon.

#25 ali_M

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 17:20

The old Ferrari was riddled with politics, Enzo believed the best way to get the most from an employee was through fear, so he set all against each other. This led to engine guys blaming the chassis, chassis guys blaming aero, aero blaming engine and the drivers blaming all three. The team would bend to pressure from the media and fire a sacrificial lamb when times were bad meaning everyone passing the parcel of blame to someone else before the music stopped. Poor performance created a call for a sacrifice, high profile criticism at that point simply painted the target on your head.

One of the biggest reasons for Ferrari's resurgence was that Montezemelo recognized and addressed this in the early 90's, he appointed Todt to do the job of running the F1 team and refused to micro manage or interfere. Todt then made himself a political firewall, he took the heat from the press and refused to pass it on internally, refused to offer a sacrifice when demanded. Internally, Brawn then unified the departments in this new, less hostile environment and the team began to unite and pull together. The culture of sacking people to appease the press disappeared and the team became stable.

Short answer? that culture simply doesn't exist today, the team have learned what it takes to be successful and won't be going back to the old ways anytime soon.


Loved that 1st paragraph. Well said.

For the rest too.... :up:

#26 Seanspeed

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 17:57

There is a credit card with the Ferrari logo, issued by Santander, which gives the scuderia a % of purchases made with the card...

I would guess that such a serious amount of money would allow them to ignore the constant complains of a car that was nowhere near as bad as their #1 driver tried to sell throughout the season.

Heck, a car on which Massa finishes in the podium or has to lift so that his teammate finishes ahead (As we saw often in the final races of the year) is, by no means, a "bad" car.

You're a broken record, I swear.

Anyways, as has been said, its been over 20 years. Things change. And thank god cuz those yellow and black pit mechanic outfits were awful.

Alonso did cause quite some stir within the team with his repeated heavy criticism while not conceding his personal errors and even getting enraged if it was pointed out semi-officially.

First time I'm hearing about it. :/

Edited by Seanspeed, 05 January 2013 - 18:00.


#27 ArkZ

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 18:30

Because Alonso's position in Ferrari is much stronger. The team is in love with Alonso and Alonso with Ferrari, seasons like 2010 and 2012 caused that the team is even more committed, because sometimes in some teams the defeat will bring closer the team and their driver even more close than win as it was in 2008. When I see sometimes people put sentence out of context and they didn't read whole article on the team website or entirely aren't following the team, like recently "Ferrari prefer Vettel over Hamilton"=> "so Alonso will be sacked in 2014"...
in almost every comments connected with Fred, LdM and Dom says "Alonso is the best driver in the world" and even after the lost race the driver will say "We have the best team" you will know there is strong relationship between them. Ferrari and Alonso fit perfectly ,the team wants strong leader and fast driver ,he wants to have support behind him.

Edited by ArkZ, 05 January 2013 - 18:31.


#28 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 22:30

Wake me up when Alonso has said something comparable to "a truck would be easier to drive than this car".

#29 Blackmadonna

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 23:10

Wake me up when Alonso has said something comparable to "a truck would be easier to drive than this car".



I hope not this year though.

Some people here are just too desperate for any 'bad news' about Fernando, so when there are none, lets make some things up?

#30 fabr68

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 04:26

Wake me up when Alonso has said something comparable to "a truck would be easier to drive than this car".


You don't understand. In Alonso Hateland, what Prost said is exactly the same as Alonso saying the car needed to improve.

Also, Santander is a minor sponsor compared to Philip Morris. Still, in Hateland they believe that Santander owns Ferrari (and Alonso owns Santander of course) and to them it is the only explanation why Ferrari has not fired Alonso for having the insolence of saying the car needed to improve.

Edited by fabr68, 06 January 2013 - 04:31.


#31 0thecougar

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 06:20

The old Ferrari was riddled with politics, Enzo believed the best way to get the most from an employee was through fear, so he set all against each other. This led to engine guys blaming the chassis, chassis guys blaming aero, aero blaming engine and the drivers blaming all three. The team would bend to pressure from the media and fire a sacrificial lamb when times were bad meaning everyone passing the parcel of blame to someone else before the music stopped. Poor performance created a call for a sacrifice, high profile criticism at that point simply painted the target on your head.

One of the biggest reasons for Ferrari's resurgence was that Montezemelo recognized and addressed this in the early 90's, he appointed Todt to do the job of running the F1 team and refused to micro manage or interfere. Todt then made himself a political firewall, he took the heat from the press and refused to pass it on internally, refused to offer a sacrifice when demanded. Internally, Brawn then unified the departments in this new, less hostile environment and the team began to unite and pull together. The culture of sacking people to appease the press disappeared and the team became stable.

Short answer? that culture simply doesn't exist today, the team have learned what it takes to be successful and won't be going back to the old ways anytime soon.


I wonder if Chris Dyer agrees completely with this theory?
I do agree that Alonso is fine to make those comments. It seems more like a gentle nudge than what Prost did. Which was to basically write off his whole team.
He's done a hell of a job to lead from the front. Was Prost in a similar position car performance wise, or had they actually made something that HRT would've been disappointed in?

#32 Kingshark

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 06:48

There is a credit card with the Ferrari logo, issued by Santander, which gives the scuderia a % of purchases made with the card...

I would guess that such a serious amount of money would allow them to ignore the constant complains of a car that was nowhere near as bad as their #1 driver tried to sell throughout the season.

Alonso isn't as much of a pay driver as you wish. Hell, does a team like Ferrari really need a pay driver?

Likewise, the Ferrari was not as good as it should've been all season, but by no means bad either. Frankly, Alonso didn't "bash" the car all year long unless you look at your world with clouded glasses.

http://www.f1fanatic...seconds-faster/

In many press conferences during the European season (Spain to Germany), Alonso often praised the work of his team. It wasn't until Ferrari once again began to fall behind when the Asian season started, that when he finally began to complain, and rightfully so.

At the start of the season Alonso was unquestionably Ferrari's biggest motivater.

http://www.f1fanatic...e-championship/

That's what he said after Melbourne, where Ferrari were horrendously off the pace.

Heck, a car on which Massa finishes in the podium or has to lift so that his teammate finishes ahead (As we saw often in the final races of the year) is, by no means, a "bad" car.

Er, no. Massa was at one point close to Alonso in Korea, but all in all Alonso finished 7 seconds ahead at the end. Likewise, the only reason Massa was ahead at Interlagos was because Alonso took a gamble to stay out on slicks for on more lap.

#33 bourbon

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 07:17

I live in Italy and I can guarantee you that some Ferrari guys were not happy with Alonso's comments about the car, particularly when he said he was competing against Newey, downplaying his own engineers's efforts.

Something has definitely changed, and Massa late performances made it worse. Remember what Ferrari did to Kimi and Schumacher when they thought there was a better driver available? They sacked them!

I know many will think I am crazy, but look very closely, and you will find that during their respective stints in Ferrari(3 years), Alonso and Raikkonen did win the exact same number of races(11), with the difference that Raikkonen won 1 WDC.


And two WCCs.

This year could be Alonso's last chance to win a WDC for Ferrari. If not, VET will be there in 2014(Montezemolo has been clear saying that VET and HAM are their targets. But he prefers VET because he is younger and could fit well).


Sebastian isn't leaving Red Bull in 2014 - he has been more than clear about that.

#34 TigersWood

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 10:40

Alonso has said a lot of times that these years in Ferrari, despite not winning, have been his best in Formula 1.

That he is very happy.

That in Ferrari he found a family.

That he wouldn't change this three years for a minute.

But, isn't he allowed to say that in three years his car has not been a winning car?

Let me tell you something, specially to those Ferrari fans who defend the team no matter what. Imagine Fernando giving up this year and 2011 after watching the enormous gap between Red Bull and Ferrari in 2011, and between everybody and ferrari in 2012.

Imagine Fernando driving like Massa. Not making into Q3. 1 podium in three years.

Fernando saved Ferrari for two years, without him they would'n be second in WCC, and he has earned more than respect in his team and of course if Vettel's team improves dramatically in 2 months and he wins 4 races in a row, whereas he doesn't lead a single lap since July, can't he say anything?

Some of you guys need to find something about Fernando, Santander, etc.... :drunk: :drunk:

Of course he said he was racing Newey. He could have said something a lot worse about his engineers, who seem very lost these years. And a Ferrari fan, a true Ferrari fan, would be very very thankful to Fernando Alonso and all he has done for the team.

And we all know why Raikkonen won his only championship. Thanks for that one, McLaren.

#35 2ms

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 10:50

Alonso is a great driver, so Ferrari would only fire Alonso if someone really good was available to replace him. None of the rest of the top 4 or so drivers will be available to them, however. Vettel wouldn't go there because he is already at Red Bull, where Alonso would obviously prefer to be driving. Kimi has already been there and I'm quite confident would prefer a seat at Red Bull or McL. Hamilton is over at Mercedes trying to build a new team with Brawn.

Like it or not, Ferrari and Alonso are simply going to have to figure out a way of making things work.

#36 kosmos

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 12:27

Saying the car it's not good enough, not as fast as the rivals it's now something bad and a driver should not say.....lol

Keep the stupid Santander BS coming.

Edited by kosmos, 06 January 2013 - 14:14.


#37 pingu666

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 16:31

different time different politics
there was the old saying ferrari's win grand prix, drivers lose them.

#38 aditya-now

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 16:57

I live in Italy and I can guarantee you that some Ferrari guys were not happy with Alonso's comments about the car, particularly when he said he was competing against Newey, downplaying his own engineers's efforts.

Something has definitely changed, and Massa late performances made it worse. Remember what Ferrari did to Kimi and Schumacher when they thought there was a better driver available? They sacked them!

I know many will think I am crazy, but look very closely, and you will find that during their respective stints in Ferrari(3 years), Alonso and Raikkonen did win the exact same number of races(11), with the difference that Raikkonen won 1 WDC.

This year could be Alonso's last chance to win a WDC for Ferrari. If not, VET will be there in 2014(Montezemolo has been clear saying that VET and HAM are their targets. But he prefers VET because he is younger and could fit well).


Thanks for the response, revlec, exactly my gut feeling.

2013 will be the last chance for Alonso to win the WDC if he wants to win it with Ferrari. Ironical, in a way, since Alonso's 2012 was one of the best seasons of any driver ever, yet he should have kept his mouth shut about the car - and exactly as you say, when he started even the Newey thing it reflected badly on the house and Scuderia he is driving for.

#39 TigersWood

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 17:21

I live in Italy and I can guarantee you that some Ferrari guys were not happy with Alonso's comments about the car, particularly when he said he was competing against Newey, downplaying his own engineers's efforts.

Something has definitely changed, and Massa late performances made it worse. Remember what Ferrari did to Kimi and Schumacher when they thought there was a better driver available? They sacked them!

I know many will think I am crazy, but look very closely, and you will find that during their respective stints in Ferrari(3 years), Alonso and Raikkonen did win the exact same number of races(11), with the difference that Raikkonen won 1 WDC.

This year could be Alonso's last chance to win a WDC for Ferrari. If not, VET will be there in 2014(Montezemolo has been clear saying that VET and HAM are their targets. But he prefers VET because he is younger and could fit well).



- Ferrari didn't sack Schumacher.

- Alonso didn't want to wait for anybody to make up his mind and he signed with McLaren, who showed interest in him.

- Raikkonen won in 2007 because MCLaren decided to play games.

- Ferrari won the 2007 WCC because of the spy-gate, and 2008 because there was only two teams in the top.

- Raikkonen did nothing to be appreciated in Ferrari, didn't learn italian, didn't make friends, and Ferrari hired him because Alonso was not available. In fact, when Raikkonen resigned nobody was happy and they paid him to leave.

- Fernando Alonso has at least three years in Ferrari, and we all hope a few years more, and definitely 2013 will not be his last chance.

- Vettel is the target once Alonso is gone. Which is not gonna be the case in the short term.

- "Some Ferrari guys" can say they are dissapointed with Alonso's words. Ferrari boss and Domenicali support him 100% and know he is right. Everybody know he did all he could and the car did not deliver.

- Ferrari owes Alonso at least one WDC and they will not think about any other drivers until they pay the debt.


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#40 Kingshark

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 17:57

Laughable to think that people actually believe the reason to why Raikkonen's accomplished more than Alonso in the 3 years he's been at Ferrari, is because he's a better driver. Nope, the 2007 and 2008 Ferrari's were way out of the league of any of Alonso's cars.

Maybe if Raikkonen had beaten Felipe Massa, then he could've stayed at Ferrari for 2010. You know, that would've been a good start. Unfortunately for the team at Maranello, the guy their hired to replace Schumacher was no better, if not slower than Massa. Nuff' said.

They (Ferrari) needed the best possible line-up ahead of 2010, and sacked the slowest driver out of the three. Simple as that.

Regarding Vettel to Red Bull. According to Horner, he has a contract until 2015 there, so probably not. 2016 at the earliest.

Edited by Kingshark, 06 January 2013 - 17:58.


#41 Lone

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 18:19

- Ferrari didn't sack Schumacher. Not technically but if they wouldn't have hired Räikkonen Schumacher wouldn't have quit. You can choose from either of the two popular theories; Schumacher was afraid of partnering Räikkonen on equal terms or that he quit to let his good friend Massa stay with Ferrari.

- Alonso didn't want to wait for anybody to make up his mind and he signed with McLaren, who showed interest in him. Who was he waiting for?

- Raikkonen won in 2007 because MCLaren decided to play games. Eventhough McLaren cheated by having the blueprints to the Ferrari car and knew their pit-stop strategies Räikkonen won more races than any other driver in that year, with a fenomenal second half.

- Ferrari won the 2007 WCC because of the spy-gate, and 2008 because there was only two teams in the top. Your point beeing?

- Raikkonen did nothing to be appreciated in Ferrari, didn't learn italian, didn't make friends, and Ferrari hired him because Alonso was not available. In fact, when Raikkonen resigned nobody was happy and they paid him to leave. I'm quite sure that the people Räikkonen worked with actually liked him very much. And Räikkonen did sign with Ferrari before Alonso signed with McLaren. Ferraris number 1 choice was Räikkonen and Räikkonen alone. As Todt stated he believed them to be equally good but Räikkonen to be a better fit with Ferrari. Perhaps it had to do with Todts experience from working with finns when he was a team manager in Rally.

- Fernando Alonso has at least three years in Ferrari, and we all hope a few years more, and definitely 2013 will not be his last chance. I agree, 2013 will not be his last chance. He is in my opinion the best driver on the grid but on the other hand if Ferrari doesn't win any title soon someone will most likely be made responsible for that.

- Vettel is the target once Alonso is gone. Which is not gonna be the case in the short term. You're probably right, but once again this is F1. Perhaps Vettel is of no interest to Ferrari once Alonso is out or perhaps Vettel will be the solution already in 2014.

- "Some Ferrari guys" can say they are dissapointed with Alonso's words. [b]Ferrari boss and Domenicali support him 100% and know he is right. Everybody know he did all he could and the car did not deliver. I think the whole team is satisfied with him, not only LdM and Domenicali. Rumours like these always circulate and almost always they are made up stories by journos.

[b]- Ferrari owes Alonso at least one WDC and they will not think about any other drivers until they pay the debt.
No they don't, he's an employee and if he doesn't want to drive for Ferrari I'm sure Ferrari will let him go without any objections.


Edited by Lone, 06 January 2013 - 19:07.


#42 Lone

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 18:33

Laughable to think that people actually believe the reason to why Raikkonen's accomplished more than Alonso in the 3 years he's been at Ferrari, is because he's a better driver. Nope, the 2007 and 2008 Ferrari's were way out of the league of any of Alonso's cars.

Maybe if Raikkonen had beaten Felipe Massa, then he could've stayed at Ferrari for 2010. You know, that would've been a good start. Unfortunately for the team at Maranello, the guy their hired to replace Schumacher was no better, if not slower than Massa. Nuff' said.

They (Ferrari) needed the best possible line-up ahead of 2010, and sacked the slowest driver out of the three. Simple as that.

Regarding Vettel to Red Bull. According to Horner, he has a contract until 2015 there, so probably not. 2016 at the earliest.


Well, you have to give those believers some slack since any driver in Ferrari was unable to win the WDC for 2 years prior to Räikkonen and no one since. That is 1 WDC in eight years and the inscription on that trophy is Räikkonens. If we were talking about a Sauber or a Williams that wouldn't have been so eyelifting but we're talking about Ferrari, the most successful team in the history of F1.

Edited by Lone, 06 January 2013 - 18:37.


#43 Kingshark

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 18:41

Well, you have to give those believers some slack since any driver in Ferrari was unable to win the WDC for 2 years prior to Räikkonen and no one since. That is 1 WDC in eight years and the inscription on that trophy is Räikkonens. If we were talking about a Sauber or a Williams that wouldn't have been so eyelifting but we're talking about Ferrari, the most successful team in the history of F1.

Raikkonen won the only Ferrari championship since 2004, because he had the lady luck at Brazil 2007, which Massa didn't have one year later, or Alonso had at Abu Dhabi 2010 or Brazil 2012.

Do you really think that Raikkonen won a Ferrari championship while Alonso (or Massa) didn't because he performed better?

Likewise, I also believe that the F2008 had the potential to be dominant in the hands of a proper top driver.

Edited by Kingshark, 06 January 2013 - 18:42.


#44 Lone

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 18:48

Raikkonen won the only Ferrari championship since 2004, because he had the lady luck at Brazil 2007, which Massa didn't have one year later, or Alonso had at Abu Dhabi 2010 or Brazil 2012.

Do you really think that Raikkonen won a Ferrari championship while Alonso didn't because he performed better?


I didn't say that. I said that you have to give some slack to those who believe Räikkonen is a very good driver and perhaps as good as or even slightly better than Alonso. My comment had nothing to do with how I rate them, but for your information I rate them both at the highest possible level, the two best drivers in the field. But none of them are my number one favourite driver.


#45 Kingshark

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 18:49

Fair enough. :up:

#46 jj2728

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 18:57

Laughable to think that people actually believe the reason to why Raikkonen's accomplished more than Alonso in the 3 years he's been at Ferrari, is because he's a better driver. Nope, the 2007 and 2008 Ferrari's were way out of the league of any of Alonso's cars.

Maybe if Raikkonen had beaten Felipe Massa, then he could've stayed at Ferrari for 2010. You know, that would've been a good start. Unfortunately for the team at Maranello, the guy their hired to replace Schumacher was no better, if not slower than Massa. Nuff' said.

They (Ferrari) needed the best possible line-up ahead of 2010, and sacked the slowest driver out of the three. Simple as that.

Regarding Vettel to Red Bull. According to Horner, he has a contract until 2015 there, so probably not. 2016 at the earliest.



Well let's see. In his first year at Ferrari he won more races than anyone else and won the WDC. Which is more of an accomplishment than anything Alonso or Massa for that matter has done at Ferrari up to this point. What's so laughable about that? What's laughable is your refusal to give Raikkonen credit for delivering where Alonso has not.

#47 Szoelloe

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 18:58

Raikkonen won the only Ferrari championship since 2004, because he had the lady luck at Brazil 2007, which Massa didn't have one year later, or Alonso had at Abu Dhabi 2010 or Brazil 2012.

Do you really think that Raikkonen won a Ferrari championship while Alonso (or Massa) didn't because he performed better?

Likewise, I also believe that the F2008 had the potential to be dominant in the hands of a proper top driver.


No. But the team performed better. Now Alonso seems to perform better than the team, and is making some noises to take credit for that. That usually does not go down well at Ferrari. That is what the OP was maybe referring to? They remember the MS era, if things did not go right - and they did not go right for years - MS made the opposite, and and it worked.It is a different era now though, and FA is their most prized possession, I hardly think they would hinder him in any way.

sorry to pop in.

Edited by Szoelloe, 06 January 2013 - 19:04.


#48 bourbon

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 20:25

Raikkonen won the only Ferrari championship since 2004, because he had the lady luck at Brazil 2007, which Massa didn't have one year later, or Alonso had at Abu Dhabi 2010 or Brazil 2012.

Do you really think that Raikkonen won a Ferrari championship while Alonso (or Massa) didn't because he performed better?


Yes. Think about it, if Raikkonen had gone to Ferrari and behaved the way Alonso behaved at Macca, Massa's performance would have likely taken the nose dive it took in 2010 and Ferrari would have jeopardized both the WDC and WCC, despite Raikkonen's 6 wins. That is because Massa would not have taken points off the top contenders nor contributed to the WCC points take. Alonso performed well in combination with his Ferrari in 2010 and 2012, but there is more to performance than driving.

Does that lessen Alonso's right to be critical? No. I believe that Alonso should be allowed to be critical without reprecussion. However, it is Ferrari and they don't take well to that. Obviously Alonso has not crossed whatever line there is in that regard though, as he is still driving for them and they have only praise for him.

Likewise, I also believe that the F2008 had the potential to be dominant in the hands of a proper top driver.


But you have no proof of that, so it is just words.

Edited by bourbon, 06 January 2013 - 20:42.


#49 RSNS

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 20:58

The difference is that Enzo Ferrari is dead.
He was an unsufferable bore, and his ego was in his cars. Montezemolo is a coldish businessman and he just wants to win.

#50 garoidb

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 21:08

Yes. Think about it, if Raikkonen had gone to Ferrari and behaved the way Alonso behaved at Macca, Massa's performance would have likely taken the nose dive it took in 2010 and Ferrari would have jeopardized both the WDC and WCC, despite Raikkonen's 6 wins.


This is mainly an issue for Massa. Professional racing drivers cannot allow their performances to nose dive like that. There is no point in blaming the guy who is going faster or doing better.