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Bruno Senna out of F1?


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#151 noikeee

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:23

That's not what he said. He stated he doesn't have the experience almost every F1 driver has, yet still had more pace than half the field.


I object to that, "more pace than half the field"? Well Williams was quicker than half the field I'll grant you that. I'm pretty certain several drivers stuck with slower cars would have driven quicker laptimes than Bruno. Starting by Vitaly Petrov who was quicker than Bruno as his team-mate before, adding certainly Timo Glock and I heavily suspect the Toro Rosso guys as well, at least Ricciardo (although we have no basis for comparison there). Plus Williams on the hands of Maldonado looked quicker than the likes of Sauber, Mercedes and Force India on several occasions, on the hands of Bruno it never did.

With endurance racing somewhat back on its way up and being part of an official FIA world championship nowadays, moving from the fringes of F1 to the WEC is more and more of a sideways step instead of a backwards one.


I'm sorry I respect the WEC as the peak championship of a different category, but no way it's a sideways step, ask Bruno if he wanted to move there or to stay in F1, ask most of the frontrunning WEC drivers if they were aiming for a F1 or a sportscars career. And where they would rather be at the moment.

It's stronger than it was a couple of years ago (when there was no FIA world championship) but this isn't the 1950s or 60s when it was an established equal to F1.

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#152 William Hunt

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 12:49

At least Bruno Senna found himself a nice job. Many (former) F1 drivers like Kovalainen, Alguersuari, Karthikeyan, Sutil, Petrov, Trulli or Kobayashi are still out of work.

#153 Orrelto

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 16:12

He's a below average driver with the best possible last name. He was simply bad when started in f1. Now he's decent in races, unspectacular in qualifying. Rightly out of seat.

#154 BoschKurve

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 16:28

He's a below average driver with the best possible last name. He was simply bad when started in f1. Now he's decent in races, unspectacular in qualifying. Rightly out of seat.


No, he's an average driver.

You might not like him, but honestly you don't get to F1 by being a below average driver because the opportunities aren't there for them.

#155 rhukkas

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 16:30

No, he's an average driver.

You might not like him, but honestly you don't get to F1 by being a below average driver because the opportunities aren't there for them.


If you have the money there are opportunities. :cool:

#156 ApexMouse

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 16:32

I couldn't his manager, Chris Goodwin, land him a drive in McLaren GT instead?


And do what? Blancpain, FIA GT3? He'd dissapear, look at parente.

Better to be on a world stage in the big battle.

#157 ApexOversteer

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 16:44

From F1 to a GT2.

owch.


+1

Highest level of motorsport.... down to a mere GT2 class.

Not even LMP1.... but a GT2. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

#158 BoschKurve

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 16:44

If you have the money there are opportunities. :cool:


Yes, in lower series that no one cares about.

#159 BoschKurve

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 16:47

+1

Highest level of motorsport.... down to a mere GT2 class.

Not even LMP1.... but a GT2. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


F1 isn't the highest level of motorsport any longer, and hasn't been for quite some time.

People continue subscribing to the illusion that F1 is the highest level, even though by modern standards it is technically inferior to what it could be. Were it truly the highest level of motorsport, it wouldn't be resembling a spec series more, and more with each passing year.

The marketing would have people believe otherwise, and it's clearly working.

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#160 Mauseri

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 16:52

No, he's an average driver.

You might not like him, but honestly you don't get to F1 by being a below average driver because the opportunities aren't there for them.

Half of the F1 drivers are below average F1 drivers. Senna is one of those. Reasonable journeyman but nothing more.

Actually saying below average, is a praise of his talent. Because he obviously belonged to the last quarter.

Edited by Mauseri, 06 February 2013 - 16:54.


#161 pingu666

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 16:53

gt2 has more manufactorers, and competitive wise its pretty bonkers.

not really a bad place to end up

#162 Lennat

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 16:58

A TOP LMP 1 drive MIGHT have been sideways, kinda... :)

#163 flatlander48

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 00:10

I'm sorry I respect the WEC as the peak championship of a different category, but no way it's a sideways step, ask Bruno if he wanted to move there or to stay in F1, ask most of the frontrunning WEC drivers if they were aiming for a F1 or a sportscars career. And where they would rather be at the moment.

It's stronger than it was a couple of years ago (when there was no FIA world championship) but this isn't the 1950s or 60s when it was an established equal to F1.


Remember that we're talking about a mid-pack F-1 team to a front running GT team.

#164 rhukkas

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 00:25

Yes, in lower series that no one cares about.


Well you would care about it if you were on a budget trying to attract sponsors and you're getting mullered by a bunch of millionaires. Your talent gets wasted and you're out of the game. 1 less driver for the rich kids to worry about in future years.

#165 molive

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:06

The 6 hours of Interlagos will get a big boost with Senna driving an Aston Martin.

As Nelsinho Piquet did, I hope that Bruno finds his happiness elsewhere.

:wave:

#166 Gold

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:26

Half of the F1 drivers are below average F1 drivers.


Please remember that even the guy at the very back of a Formula One grid, like Karthikeyan, could lap you and me in 4 laps.

#167 ApexOversteer

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:26

F1 isn't the highest level of motorsport any longer, and hasn't been for quite some time.



LOL, then go and find me a race car that can lap around the Spa/Silverstone GP circuit faster than a F1 car.


All this "could" & "should" excuses....... It doesn't change the fact that F1 is still the highest form of motorsport.

#168 Mauseri

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:22

Please remember that even the guy at the very back of a Formula One grid, like Karthikeyan, could lap you and me in 4 laps.

Of course. They are all racers. Even the likes of A.Yoong who kept spinning alone in the back..

It may hurt to say that someone is below average, but the standards are high. Sofa experts are allowed to have opinions on the driving skills of expert racers.

Edited by Mauseri, 07 February 2013 - 10:23.


#169 Jejking

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:32

Please remember that even the guy at the very back of a Formula One grid, like Karthikeyan, could lap you and me in 4 laps.

Without practice, yes. But Karthikeyan isn't extracting 100% from his car, de la Rosa was getting closer to that point so I don't think it's impossible to beat NK. With the right amount of practice of course :)

#170 sopa

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:39

It's relative guys. The point about averages is that an "average F1 driver" is about 11th-12th best in the F1 field. And a below average is maybe 14th or 20th best driver in F1. It doesn't mean it is below average of all racing drivers, we are speaking about F1 here.

#171 Jejking

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:49

That's true :)

#172 Victor_RO

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:50

The 6 hours of Interlagos will get a big boost with Senna driving an Aston Martin.


Emmo must have been rubbing his hands together when hearing the news, di Grassi in an Audi and Bruno in a factory Aston Martin are going to definitely draw the crowds and he's the promoter for the race. :D

#173 rhukkas

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:02

It's relative guys. The point about averages is that an "average F1 driver" is about 11th-12th best in the F1 field. And a below average is maybe 14th or 20th best driver in F1. It doesn't mean it is below average of all racing drivers, we are speaking about F1 here.


Apart from maybe 3-4 guys F1 isn't particularly special with regards to driving talent.

#174 Kyo

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 04:43

Bruno certainly didn't deliver in F1. I can't say why, and there is many possible reasons, but he is no below average driver. A below average driver wouldn't finish 2nd in GP2 ahead of Grosjean, Maldonado, Buemi, Petrov, Kobayashi and many others...

#175 TF110

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 05:01

Yes, in lower series that no one cares about.

That statement shows your ignorance. LeMans is one of the most popular if not the most popular race in the world. Aston Martin is celebrating it's 100th anniversary and are really pushing for that LM24 win and FIA WEC title. If you don't care about it, that's fine. But when you say no one cares about it, you're definitely wrong.

#176 BoschKurve

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 13:08

That statement shows your ignorance. LeMans is one of the most popular if not the most popular race in the world. Aston Martin is celebrating it's 100th anniversary and are really pushing for that LM24 win and FIA WEC title. If you don't care about it, that's fine. But when you say no one cares about it, you're definitely wrong.


I think you misunderstood. I think the Aston Martin seat is by far better than going to any other series. I don't consider LM to be a "lower series" at all. Come 2014, it's likely going to be the series to watch if the rule changes turn out to be as interesting as I am hoping they will be. If I couldn't drive in F1, going to WEC and LM24 is by far the best option...in fact I think better than driving in F1 to a degree as if he is successful, he's got the ability to have a much better career there. Obviously he would have rather have driven in F1, but I'm glad he didn't get the Caterham seat as that would have done nothing good for him.

While people do disagree, I feel the deck was slightly stacked against Bruno in all 3 tries in F1. He had no choice with the Williams contract being what it was. I just would have liked to have seen him get all of the FP1 sessions. I realize it may have not made any difference regarding qualifying, but to try to get the best out of any driver especially with the lack of time they get in the car these days, they should be in the seat in all sessions.

Edited by BoschKurve, 08 February 2013 - 13:08.


#177 William Hunt

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 14:16

Bruno certainly didn't deliver in F1. I can't say why, and there is many possible reasons, but he is no below average driver. A below average driver wouldn't finish 2nd in GP2 ahead of Grosjean, Maldonado, Buemi, Petrov, Kobayashi and many others...


Exactly, he may not be one of the best F1 drivers but still a superb and very talented driver. I don't get why people bash him and some other drivers so much. Besides, he may not have delivered completely but he did have a couple of excellent races and scored a lot of top 10 finishes, he was much more constant and stable as his quicker teammate Maldonado. And Bruno was, apart from his runner-up position in GP2, competitive in F3 as well. He reached F1 on merit, not just because of his name.

#178 Anderis

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 14:45

This is the problem with today's F1. Not every talented driver is able to deliver in F1. Some drive not as good as you would think they could and some other do respectable job, but not quite enough good to be stand out and therefore not to be replaced after 2 or 3 years. Some people can't understand this.

Some looking at my posts may think that I'm Senna basher. But I only express disagreement with some people trying to underline his positives at Williams too much. I have never written that he has no talent or that he didn't deserve his chance in F1. The problem is, that, IMO, he didn't do the best with all of his chances even if none of them was 100% comfortable. There are plenty of competitive (and with money) drivers around F1 now so you need to be the best of the best without many excuses. Otherwise, you shouldn't complain that you are replaced by somebody other.

#179 BoschKurve

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:12

This is the problem with today's F1. Not every talented driver is able to deliver in F1. Some drive not as good as you would think they could and some other do respectable job, but not quite enough good to be stand out and therefore not to be replaced after 2 or 3 years. Some people can't understand this.

Some looking at my posts may think that I'm Senna basher. But I only express disagreement with some people trying to underline his positives at Williams too much. I have never written that he has no talent or that he didn't deserve his chance in F1. The problem is, that, IMO, he didn't do the best with all of his chances even if none of them was 100% comfortable. There are plenty of competitive (and with money) drivers around F1 now so you need to be the best of the best without many excuses. Otherwise, you shouldn't complain that you are replaced by somebody other.


I've always understood where you're coming from regarding Bruno. His biggest flaw was qualifying. He never was capable of pulling out that extra 3 to 4 tenths of a second that would have gotten him into a number of Q3's in 2012. The car was capable of Q3 at the majority of races, but for whatever reason (I don't know how valid his tire excuse was) he couldn't shave off that needed time. But that's life, not every driver can do it when they need to. The one's that can still have seats, the one's who can't are out of them and have been replaced by guys who will try to do what they couldn't.

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#180 Burtros

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:36

Yes, in lower series that no one cares about.


No one cares about GT2?

Speak for yourself on that one please! WEC is a decent series from everything I have seen.

Fair play to Senna, he wasnt as bad as some make out here but equally, he wasnt really good enough on most occasions either. He wont be the last driver of his kind either. I think WEC is a good place for him.

Edited by Burtros, 08 February 2013 - 16:38.


#181 BiH

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:38

F1 isn't the highest level of motorsport any longer, and hasn't been for quite some time.

People continue subscribing to the illusion that F1 is the highest level, even though by modern standards it is technically inferior to what it could be. Were it truly the highest level of motorsport, it wouldn't be resembling a spec series more, and more with each passing year.

The marketing would have people believe otherwise, and it's clearly working.


Yeah right.

Put any F1 driver in open wheel car against any other driver and they would destroy them.

Going from F1 to closed cockpit it difficult, hence why guys like Ralf, Coulthard even Glock struggle in DTM.

Edited by BiH, 08 February 2013 - 16:38.


#182 BoschKurve

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:39

No one cares about GT2?

Speak for yourself on that one please! WEC is a decent series from everything I have seen.

Fair play to Senna, he wasnt as bad as some make out here but equally, he wasnt really good enough on most occasions either. He wont be the last driver of his kind either. I think WEC is a good place for him.


Read one of my above posts please.

#183 Burtros

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:39

F1 isn't the highest level of motorsport any longer, and hasn't been for quite some time.

People continue subscribing to the illusion that F1 is the highest level, even though by modern standards it is technically inferior to what it could be. Were it truly the highest level of motorsport, it wouldn't be resembling a spec series more, and more with each passing year.

The marketing would have people believe otherwise, and it's clearly working.


really? What is the pinnacle of motorsport now then?


#184 BoschKurve

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:43

Yeah right.

Put any F1 driver in open wheel car against any other driver and they would destroy them.

Going from F1 to closed cockpit it difficult, hence why guys like Ralf, Coulthard even Glock struggle in DTM.


What happens if the guys who would get destroyed have time to prepare properly for open-wheel?

#185 BoschKurve

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:46

really? What is the pinnacle of motorsport now then?


F1 has gone out of it's way to stifle technological innovation to the point that it's a near spec series now.

Last year I recall reading an interview with John Barnard where he gave his thoughts on modern F1. He hit the nail on the head with everything.

Edit: I don't know if I'd say there is a true pinnacle anymore as it depends on what one is looking for out of racing. I know plenty of people who consider LM24/WEC to be higher than F1 nowadays.

Edited by BoschKurve, 08 February 2013 - 16:47.


#186 Burtros

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:48

Read one of my above posts please.


Ok I see post 176. Although I have to point out, I dont think anyone misunderstood your original comment, I think you back track away from it.

#187 Burtros

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:49

F1 has gone out of it's way to stifle technological innovation to the point that it's a near spec series now.

Last year I recall reading an interview with John Barnard where he gave his thoughts on modern F1. He hit the nail on the head with everything.

Edit: I don't know if I'd say there is a true pinnacle anymore as it depends on what one is looking for out of racing. I know plenty of people who consider LM24/WEC to be higher than F1 nowadays.


Fair enough - I agree on the technical innovation being stunted - but theres still a way to go before it becomes a spec series.

Perhaps F1 cant claim to be the pinnacle anymore then. Interesting thoughts actually.

#188 BoschKurve

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:51

Ok I see post 176. Although I have to point out, I dont think anyone misunderstood your original comment, I think you back track away from it.


It's my fault as I should have expanded on it further than what I posted since it wasn't going to be understood without an explanation.

#189 BoschKurve

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:56

Fair enough - I agree on the technical innovation being stunted - but theres still a way to go before it becomes a spec series.

Perhaps F1 cant claim to be the pinnacle anymore then. Interesting thoughts actually.


It irks me that we haven't seen anything truly on par to the Williams FW14B and FW15C, and that was now 20 years ago. I don't like the idea of F1 being sort of stuck because everyone is afraid to take the gloves off the engineers since the thought process is that having a team possibly running away with the championship isn't good.

I'm more interested in the 2014 LM24 regulations than the F1 2014 regulations at this point.

#190 BiH

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 18:02

What happens if the guys who would get destroyed have time to prepare properly for open-wheel?


Bourdais in anything after F1.

Montoya Nascar road courses.

/thread

#191 Kingshark

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 18:24

Please remember that even the guy at the very back of a Formula One grid, like Karthikeyan, could lap you and me in 4 laps.



This shows that F1 drivers are far from being unbeatable.

They are people with passion for the sport who have been given the right opportunities, not because they are Superman.

Edited by Kingshark, 08 February 2013 - 18:24.


#192 BiH

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 19:46



This shows that F1 drivers are far from being unbeatable.

They are people with passion for the sport who have been given the right opportunities, not because they are Superman.



from the driver

"i have a lot more experience of the track it might have looked easy it wasnt"



check the winners for Felipe Massa charity kart race.


#193 pingu666

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 21:40

people just fit a certain type of car/tyre/series at a particular time, or randomly have good form too.

no ex f1 driver has shown consistant really good form in modern dtm, have they?

#194 flatlander48

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 23:12

It irks me that we haven't seen anything truly on par to the Williams FW14B and FW15C, and that was now 20 years ago. I don't like the idea of F1 being sort of stuck because everyone is afraid to take the gloves off the engineers since the thought process is that having a team possibly running away with the championship isn't good.

I'm more interested in the 2014 LM24 regulations than the F1 2014 regulations at this point.


No, it has to do with money. Technical freedom costs. It makes it VERY difficult to try to control costs.

#195 flatlander48

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 23:26

This is the problem with today's F1. Not every talented driver is able to deliver in F1. Some drive not as good as you would think they could and some other do respectable job, but not quite enough good to be stand out and therefore not to be replaced after 2 or 3 years. Some people can't understand this.

Some looking at my posts may think that I'm Senna basher. But I only express disagreement with some people trying to underline his positives at Williams too much. I have never written that he has no talent or that he didn't deserve his chance in F1. The problem is, that, IMO, he didn't do the best with all of his chances even if none of them was 100% comfortable. There are plenty of competitive (and with money) drivers around F1 now so you need to be the best of the best without many excuses. Otherwise, you shouldn't complain that you are replaced by somebody other.


Yes, but you still have to come back to the point that without that chunk of 25 points, Maldonado would have been significantly outscored. In spite of not qualifying well, Senna scored top 10 finishes 10 times to Maldonado's 5 times, including his win. Senna had 2 retirements to Maldonado's 5. It may well be the Maldonado is the better driver, but Senna can't be as far behind as many here suggest.

#196 BigCHrome

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 23:48

F1 has gone out of it's way to stifle technological innovation to the point that it's a near spec series now.

Last year I recall reading an interview with John Barnard where he gave his thoughts on modern F1. He hit the nail on the head with everything.

Edit: I don't know if I'd say there is a true pinnacle anymore as it depends on what one is looking for out of racing. I know plenty of people who consider LM24/WEC to be higher than F1 nowadays.


:rotfl:

F1 cars are way more sophisticated than anything else out there.

#197 rhukkas

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 23:52

from the driver

"i have a lot more experience of the track it might have looked easy it wasnt"

check the winners for Felipe Massa charity kart race.


It's really not uncommon for F1 drivers to go back to karting and get their arse handed to them on a plate (even if they were decent karters back in the day), especially against real professionals. What should be remembered in the above video is that guy overtaking Button isn't a professional. He isn't one of the 'top guys' in the world of karting. So while he is obviously more experiencved than Button round that track in those karts he isn't Bas Lammers. So karting isn't a great example, but it does to some extent eclipse this myth that all f1 drivers are one a 'different' level to everyone else. They really aren't. Some are, most aren't.

The Massa kart race is a bad example because a lot of the F1 drivers used to be decent karters too. They tend to beat the guys who didn't have experience in karts in that race. And it should be noted NO current professional karters are invited to that race ;)

Edited by rhukkas, 09 February 2013 - 23:53.


#198 Gold

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 23:56

It's really not uncommon for F1 drivers to go back to karting and get their arse handed to them on a plate (even if they were decent karters back in the day), especially against real professionals. What should be remembered in the above video is that guy overtaking Button isn't a professional. He isn't one of the 'top guys' in the world of karting. So while he is obviously more experiencved than Button round that track in those karts he isn't Bas Lammers. So karting isn't a great example, but it does to some extent eclipse this myth that all f1 drivers are one a 'different' level to everyone else. They really aren't. Some are, most aren't.

The Massa kart race is a bad example because a lot of the F1 drivers used to be decent karters too. They tend to beat the guys who didn't have experience in karts in that race. And it should be noted NO current professional karters are invited to that race ;)


He said below average drivers.

It's well known that any F1 driver would lap any proficient roadcar driver in 4 laps in any car on any track.

If you are a 125cc pro karter or a club racer it might take 10 or 12.

One overtake does not mean someone is definitively faster as a driver.

Edit: I don't know you may be a professional racecar driver rhukkas but I have never heard of you. I know I would be lapped within 4 laps by Karthikeyan, I was lapped in 8 laps by a guy who qualified in equal cars 0.5 s slower than JJ Lehto. Although I ride a gsxr1000 so I can control F1 levels of violent acceleration and can lap my local kart track to within 1.5s from the all time lap record. F1 drivers aren't labelled as "aliens" by good drivers for nothing.

Edited by Gold, 10 February 2013 - 00:05.


#199 rhukkas

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 00:08

He said below average drivers.

It's well known that any F1 driver would lap any proficient roadcar driver in 4 laps in any car on any track.

If you are a 125cc pro karter or a club racer it might take 6 or 8.


lol Are you serious? I've seen F1 drivers race karts from indoor charity events to testing to top-level kart events where they rarely finish top 5... ( http://www.mylaps.co....jsp?id=1371131 That grid has schumi, beumi, and piquet jnr.... all f1 drivers at the time) let alone lap anyone. That's partly due to the fact F1 drivers lack familiarity and testing, but also because they aren't superhuman. That's why motorsport is so great. it's perfectly plausible for some plumber to go race his kart at his local kart club and beat Nigel Mansell at his own track. (... and if you missed the hint there... that actually happened)

Karting is a bad example to demonstrate the 'specialness' of F1 drivers because most poeple grossly underestimate the quality of drivers in karting

Edited by rhukkas, 10 February 2013 - 00:13.


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#200 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
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Posted 10 February 2013 - 01:11

Bruno's uncle himself considered a "mere" karter in Terry Fullerton as his greatest opponent in motor racing. Never underestimate a kart driver's skill just because they aren't driving a Formula 1 car.