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Sportsmanship and Sir Stirling


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#1 robefc

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 14:19

Brilliant interview in the plus section of the site, particularly loved this bit, not just the fact that he did it but he can't seem to fathom why anybody wouldn't! MH is Maurice Hamilton

http://plus.autospor...-stirling-moss/

MH This really was a different age. People today would have difficulty getting their heads around the fact that when officials tried to throw Mike Hawthorn out of the 1958 Portuguese Grand Prix for going against the traffic after he had spun, you sprung to his defence. You had no hesitation.

SM: No, certainly not. Mike did go up the escape road and that was penalty enough in itself.

MH: Yes, but it was you – not Mike – who pointed out that, although he was going in the wrong direction, he was on the pavement and not actually on the track. The officials agreed and allowed his second place to stand.

SM: But I can't see how this is open for debate! He was not on the circuit...

MH: Yes Stirling, but if you hadn't said anything and he lost the six points, you'd be world champion. He was your only rival. That didn't come into your thinking?

SM: No! [Mere words cannot portray the genuine incredulity of Sir Stirling's expression at this point. It did not figure then – and doesn't now. Hawthorn was being hard done by. End of story.]



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#2 jonpollak

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 14:29

"But I tell you, boy, if you're only talking cars, crumpet and food, you don't need much"

Ah the good old days... when men were men and women were women.
Good luck getting anyone round here to mitfühlen with ya. One needs to go up a gear or some to the TNF
I've a nice Hedy Lamarr story if you fancy it..

Jp

#3 ForeverF1

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 14:31

Different era. There was a post by JP that I wished to respond to....But, it has been trashed. :cry:

Edit: It is now back. :lol:

#4 ensign14

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 14:37

Moss's Championship-costing mistake (apart from the lap record point) came at the end of the race.

As the flag was out, Stirling, Mike and Stuart Lewis-Evans crossed the line almost together. Only the order was Mike, Stirling, Stuart.

Mike was almost a lap down, Stuart just over a lap down.

Had Stirling let Stuart pass him just before the line, then it would have been a Vanwall 1-2, as SLE would have overtaken the spinning JMH.

Instead, because Stuart followed Stirling over, his race was finished, frozen as at his 49th lap.

As it is, the whole thing showed the illogic of classification in those days; had Mike's spin been a terminal one, he would not have been classified, and would have scored zero points, even though he would have completed 49 laps faster than Lewis-Evans and neither of them would have completed 50.

Incidentally, Roebuck tells a similar story of Reutemann, when asked whether he thought about bumping Piquet at Caesars.

#5 Vitesse2

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 14:40

I've a nice Hedy Lamarr story if you fancy it..

Jp

Exstase?

Does it involve pins? :cat:

#6 jonpollak

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 14:58

Go ahead Forever..
Respon day voo

No pins in this little story

Here the short attention span wrap up of her life from some random internet site
Jp

#7 jonpollak

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 15:04

Sorry, must post on topic..
Mike lived in Farnham..I'm moving there shortly.

Not really on topic yet am I?
Jp

EDIT: Another try then..
Was sat in the very parking lot in Vegas that hot day in '81.
My girlfriend and I skipped work at the Roxy on Sunset and drove to Sin City for the race.
I could not believe Carlos just gave it away.
I bet Bernie sent some chums round to his suite at Caesars...

this from the race wiki...

The Williams drivers, Alan Jones and Reutemann, were fastest from the start of the first practice with points leader Reutemann the faster of the two. Later, Jones became the only other driver to break 1:18 in qualifying, and the starting front row was all Williams. Reutemann was not expecting any help winning the Championship from teammate Jones, who explained, "I don't see how I can help him; I would not go holding up people as I am a member of the British Commonwealth (Australia, specifically) and I would consider that unsporting."
In the race on Saturday, Jones jumped off the line into the lead, but Reutemann was quickly passed by Gilles Villeneuve, Alain Prost and Bruno Giacomelli, and finished the first lap in fifth. By the end of lap two, Jones had a five-second lead. Prost passed Villeneuve on lap three, but could not get close enough to challenge Jones for the lead. Villeneuve, meanwhile, kept a line of cars behind him as he fought off the advances of Giacomelli. This allowed Mario Andretti to move right on to Piquet's tail, as he desperately tried to overtake Reutemann.
The Brazilian was nearly touching the back of the Williams as they approached the last left-hander before the pits on lap 17. Piquet got around Reutemann on the inside when Reutemann, fighting for the Championship, inexplicably braked early. Piquet said, "I saw his car getting worse oversteer, then he braked very early, I think in the hope I would run into him, but I saw it and passed easily." On the next lap, Andretti also went by. Piquet passed John Watson on lap 22, and put himself in a position to score points when he took over sixth place. Reutemann continued to slip backwards with gearbox trouble, having lost fourth gear as early as lap two.

Jp

Edited by jonpollak, 07 January 2013 - 15:18.


#8 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 15:07

Are modern standards so low that telling the truth is considered noteworthy? Lewis-Melbourne-2009 not included.

#9 Myrvold

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 15:16

Telling the truth, to give a rival a better chance to win against you. Yes.

#10 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 15:20

Just telling the truth then. Because the opposite is lying to gain an advantage you don't deserve. I know F1 is supposed to be cut-throat and all that but if that situation happened today and a driver or team didn't admit the other guy was clearly legal, they'd be crucified in the press.

#11 Seanspeed

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 15:30

Just telling the truth then. Because the opposite is lying to gain an advantage you don't deserve. I know F1 is supposed to be cut-throat and all that but if that situation happened today and a driver or team didn't admit the other guy was clearly legal, they'd be crucified in the press.

He could have said nothing. Thats not lying.

#12 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 15:40

If that had happened in 2012 he'd have been asked. Even ignoring the issues of everything being on TV. It's good that he did it, but it's hardly giving up your car for your teammate or pulling a driver out of a burning bush.

#13 Slartibartfast

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 16:48

If that had happened in 2012 he'd have been asked. Even ignoring the issues of everything being on TV. It's good that he did it, but it's hardly giving up your car for your teammate or pulling a driver out of a burning bush.

It didn't happen in 2012. In 2012 we got Ferrari asking for "clarification".

#14 robefc

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 17:07

It didn't happen in 2012. In 2012 we got Ferrari asking for "clarification".


:up:

I'm a bit surprised by your posts Ross, as far as I can tell this would be the equivalent of the FIA trying to penalise vettel for passing under a yellow flag in brazil and alonso voluntarily instructing ferrari over the radio to tell CW that vettel was innocent and therefore not to penalise him.

Or perhaps Prost accepting that Senna using the escape road was fair enough in 89.

I don't think pulling drivers from burning cars really qualifies under sportsmanship, it's a bit more than that isn't it and not really relevant to the discussion.

JP - really struggling to follow your posts but am intrigued!

Edited by robefc, 07 January 2013 - 17:11.


#15 aditya-now

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 18:01

Sorry, must post on topic..
Mike lived in Farnham..I'm moving there shortly.

Not really on topic yet am I?
Jp

EDIT: Another try then..
Was sat in the very parking lot in Vegas that hot day in '81.
My girlfriend and I skipped work at the Roxy on Sunset and drove to Sin City for the race.
I could not believe Carlos just gave it away.
I bet Bernie sent some chums round to his suite at Caesars...

this from the race wiki...

The Williams drivers, Alan Jones and Reutemann, were fastest from the start of the first practice with points leader Reutemann the faster of the two. Later, Jones became the only other driver to break 1:18 in qualifying, and the starting front row was all Williams. Reutemann was not expecting any help winning the Championship from teammate Jones, who explained, "I don't see how I can help him; I would not go holding up people as I am a member of the British Commonwealth (Australia, specifically) and I would consider that unsporting."
In the race on Saturday, Jones jumped off the line into the lead, but Reutemann was quickly passed by Gilles Villeneuve, Alain Prost and Bruno Giacomelli, and finished the first lap in fifth. By the end of lap two, Jones had a five-second lead. Prost passed Villeneuve on lap three, but could not get close enough to challenge Jones for the lead. Villeneuve, meanwhile, kept a line of cars behind him as he fought off the advances of Giacomelli. This allowed Mario Andretti to move right on to Piquet's tail, as he desperately tried to overtake Reutemann.
The Brazilian was nearly touching the back of the Williams as they approached the last left-hander before the pits on lap 17. Piquet got around Reutemann on the inside when Reutemann, fighting for the Championship, inexplicably braked early. Piquet said, "I saw his car getting worse oversteer, then he braked very early, I think in the hope I would run into him, but I saw it and passed easily." On the next lap, Andretti also went by. Piquet passed John Watson on lap 22, and put himself in a position to score points when he took over sixth place. Reutemann continued to slip backwards with gearbox trouble, having lost fourth gear as early as lap two.

Jp


Thanks for the Reutemann story! An all-time great and, because he never won a WDC, often overlooked by those who did not witness the era. Also an enigmatic, unique personality.

#16 ensign14

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 18:18

OK, so the race wiki is somewhat contentious, given that the official Brabham history has Piquet quoted as saying of Reutemann:

"[he] braked early to let me pass when I came up behind him. He made it so easy for me I couldn't believe it." Autocourse has something very similar and Motor Sport has no hint of a brake test - just saying the move was absurdly simple. And Patrick Head in one of Maurice Hamilton's books states baldly Reutemann psyched himself out, was told Piquet was physically dead after practice (he had had to see a masseur, for professional rather than recreational purposes, apparently), and when NP came up behind him CR couldn't believe how fresh he looked, and gave up.

#17 jonpollak

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 18:40

I don't think pulling drivers from burning cars really qualifies under sportsmanship, it's a bit more than that isn't it and not really relevant to the discussion.

JP - really struggling to follow your posts but am intrigued!


But the Roebuck item ensign14 referred to is relevant.
Hence my response to it and yes e14, I don't put much credence on that wiki either.
Here's a crap video of the Vegas race.
http://www.youtube.c...53AAF7B6440BFC5

Where are you struggling..the seemingly unrelated nature of what I posted?
Yours is basically a question/observation about ethics right?... And the disconnect from it in modern racing right?
Seanspeed mentioned the option to not say anything hence ..Not Lying.
Just guessing here but I bet he came in on the back of the Schumi era..

EDITING FOR FURTHER CLARITY:
To give you a more germane quote from the piece I'd offer this..

If the cars were as dangerous as they were in my era, I don't care how big your balls are, you simply wouldn't do what people do today. It was a dangerous sport. That was one of the reasons I entered it; I like playing with fire. I wouldn't swap my era for now.

Any clearer now robefc?
Jp

Edited by jonpollak, 07 January 2013 - 18:49.