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Most Formula Two wins in one season?


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#1 Stefan Schmidt

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 07:20

Need your help - who has won the most F2 races in one season?? I would say Jimmy or Jochen Rindt but others such as Jarier in 1973 and Giacomelli in 1978 were also very succsessful :)

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#2 funformula

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:20

Need your help - who has won the most F2 races in one season?? I would say Jimmy or Jochen Rindt but others such as Jarier in 1973 and Giacomelli in 1978 were also very succsessful :)


According to Wikipedia Rindt won 12 F2 races in total, Giacomelli won 11 races in total. But I think Giacomelli won all/most of them in 1978. IIRC in 1977 he drove F3 in Italy and in 1979 he already drove in F1 for Alfa Romeo.
Rindt drove F2 races for more than only one saison, so his wins may be achieved in more than one year.

#3 john winfield

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:34

According to Wikipedia Rindt won 12 F2 races in total, Giacomelli won 11 races in total. But I think Giacomelli won all/most of them in 1978. IIRC in 1977 he drove F3 in Italy and in 1979 he already drove in F1 for Alfa Romeo.
Rindt drove F2 races for more than only one saison, so his wins may be achieved in more than one year.


Giacomelli was driving in F2 in 1977 and had three wins (including the 'winter' race at Donington). He scored an impressive eight wins in 1978.

Looking quickly through Jochen Rindt's career record, I can see twenty five or more Formula 2 wins, not counting heats. They weren't all European Championship rounds but I would think most were fairly competitive.

I think someone has been messing with the Wikipedia Formula 2 entry; apparently, in 1968 and 1969, Eric James was European F2 Champion, before '...moving to the Lotus Formula One Team in 1970 then crashing near fatally in Germany, ending his racing career.'
Did Ronnie Mutch write for Wikipedia? And whereabouts in Germany is fatally anyway?

Edited by john winfield, 08 January 2013 - 08:57.


#4 Tim Murray

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:56

Unless I've missed someone, the answer is Alberto Ascari - 11 wins in 1952. Rindt's best season was 1967, when he won 9 races. Jarier and Giacomelli both won 8 races, in 1973 and 1978 respectively. Clark never won more than 5 races in one season.

(Source: the relevant F1R Black Books)

#5 Eric Dunsdon

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:14

Unless I've missed someone, the answer is Alberto Ascari - 11 wins in 1952. Rindt's best season was 1967, when he won 9 races. Jarier and Giacomelli both won 8 races, in 1973 and 1978 respectively. Clark never won more than 5 races in one season.

(Source: the relevant F1R Black Books)

Well pointed out Tim. I thought of Alberto straight away. Without checking the books, his number of Formula 2 wins between 1950 and 1954 takes some beating!. :cool:

#6 john winfield

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:54

Unless I've missed someone, the answer is Alberto Ascari - 11 wins in 1952. Rindt's best season was 1967, when he won 9 races. Jarier and Giacomelli both won 8 races, in 1973 and 1978 respectively. Clark never won more than 5 races in one season.

(Source: the relevant F1R Black Books)


Yes, good point Tim. Vaguely on-topic, here's an earlier thread covering the Formula Two / Grand Prix status controversy of the early 1950s. It also develops satisfyingly tangentially into a BRM debate between some of TNF's old favourites.....


http://forums.autosp...mp;hl=1952 1953

#7 Allen Brown

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 13:09

Unless I've missed someone, the answer is Alberto Ascari - 11 wins in 1952. Rindt's best season was 1967, when he won 9 races. Jarier and Giacomelli both won 8 races, in 1973 and 1978 respectively. Clark never won more than 5 races in one season.

(Source: the relevant F1R Black Books)


Championship events or non-championship events? Rindt only won five championship events in 1967; Ascari six in 1952; Jarier seven in 1973; Giacomelli eight in 1978 - but bear in mind that the the championship was enlarged to a slightly barking 17 events in 1973 and that Jacko had the advantage of graded drivers have left by 1978. Rindt won five out of eight and he had to compete with Clark, Stewart and Ickx. Ascari won six of the seven championship F2 events in 1952.

So the correct answer is ... whatever you want it to be :)

#8 JtP1

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 13:37

Would 52/53 be considered F2, although that was the spec of the car. Alberto Ascari, the first and only F2 world champion?

#9 nicanary

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 13:58

Would 52/53 be considered F2, although that was the spec of the car. Alberto Ascari, the first and only F2 world champion?


The championship was a series of Grands Prix, chosen by the FIA to count towards the World Drivers Championship. The fact that the common formula was F2 is surely irrelevant? Ascari was declared World Driving Champion because he had scored most points in events which counted towards that championship, events which had been selected by the FIA.

It wasn't titled the F1 WDC, simply WDC.


#10 Roger Clark

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 15:05

Championship events or non-championship events? Rindt only won five championship events in 1967; Ascari six in 1952; Jarier seven in 1973; Giacomelli eight in 1978 - but bear in mind that the the championship was enlarged to a slightly barking 17 events in 1973 and that Jacko had the advantage of graded drivers have left by 1978. Rindt won five out of eight and he had to compete with Clark, Stewart and Ickx. Ascari won six of the seven championship F2 events in 1952.

So the correct answer is ... whatever you want it to be :)

That depends on which 1952 championship you're talking about.

#11 Eric Dunsdon

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 15:13

Championship events or non-championship events? Rindt only won five championship events in 1967; Ascari six in 1952; Jarier seven in 1973; Giacomelli eight in 1978 - but bear in mind that the the championship was enlarged to a slightly barking 17 events in 1973 and that Jacko had the advantage of graded drivers have left by 1978. Rindt won five out of eight and he had to compete with Clark, Stewart and Ickx. Ascari won six of the seven championship F2 events in 1952.

So the correct answer is ... whatever you want it to be :)

Do races that were not included in some Championship or another not count for anything then?. During the seasons 1950 to 1953 Alberto Ascari won 24 Formula 2 races (one of them shared with Andre Simon). In 1952 Ascari won five Formula 2 Grand Prix races apart from the six that counted toward that years World Drivers Championship.

#12 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 16:16

What about Sir Jack Brabham ?

#13 Tim Murray

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 17:02

Good thinking, Bjørn. Yes indeed - Jack won 10 races in the Brabham-Honda in 1966. So I make the current Top 3:

1. Ascari - 11 (1952)
2. Brabham - 10 (1966)
3. Rindt - 9 (1967)

Anyone else we've missed so far?

#14 Allen Brown

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 17:28

Do races that were not included in some Championship or another not count for anything then?.


The problem is how you define a non-championship F2 race. A championship race is easy to define but non-championship F2 races could include any old clubby at Croft if it said it was open to F2 cars. Look at Black Book lists of F1 races for examples of this difficulty. They include many more races in the 1948-1952 period than we do on ORC. If you include non-championship F2 races then you could find yourself in the situation where Xavier Perrot or Roland Salomon or Claude Bourgoignie won more "F2 races" than anyone else because they won the F2 class at lots of national events. How can a rule be constructed that includes "worthwhile" non-championship events but not minor ones? You end up with a circular argument that a F2 race must have been important if Ascari was in it.

So that's why I asked the question: Championship events or non-championship events?

#15 David McKinney

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 18:22

Personally, I'd look at all races limited to F2 cars

Or take the other option and stick to championship races. In which case do you include the 1952 French championship, the 1957-60 British (and in some later years - ISTR Lauda won one)? Or just limit it to European Championship (and two years of World Championship)?

#16 arttidesco

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 18:34

Personally, I'd look at all races limited to F2 cars

the 1957-60 British (and in some later years ISTR Lauda won one)?


Learn something new everyday Niki Lauda 1972 British Formula 2 Champion :up:

#17 Allen Brown

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 20:38

At the time it was just called the John Player Formula 2 Championship and would have been organised by MRD or the BRSCC or BARC or somebody. The idea that it was the British Formula 2 Championship arose later.

#18 arttidesco

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 21:32

At the time it was just called the John Player Formula 2 Championship and would have been organised by MRD or the BRSCC or BARC or somebody. The idea that it was the British Formula 2 Championship arose later.


Niki Lauda John Player Formula 2 Champion sounds good two :up: ;)

#19 David McKinney

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 22:43

At the time it was just called the John Player Formula 2 Championship and would have been organised by MRD or the BRSCC or BARC or somebody. The idea that it was the British Formula 2 Championship arose later.

And the earlier one was promoted by The Autocar, and covered races at home and abroad. Anyone could (and did) take part, but points were open only to British or Commonwealth drivers


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#20 noikeee

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 15:35

Can I be an unhelpful pedant by mentioning Andy Soucek's 7 wins in 2009 and Mirko Bortolotti's 7 too in 2011? Hey, FIA's fault not mine, for naming those cars Formula 2...

#21 brooster51

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 04:11

OK, I'm compulsive. I've always felt that the golden age of F2 was 64 to 71. You had two fairly consistent formula, 1 liter from 64 to 66 and then 1.6 liter from 67 to 71 and a lot of competition. After 71, the 2 liter era began and the participation of Graded drivers dropped off.This is obviously a personal opiniion and open for debate. The following table shows who won 'major' races in this period. I'll leave it to you whether this answers your question. Oh, 'major' means European races with a lot of depth in the entry, from top F1 drivers to the new comers. I cut it off at five wins in a season.

Jochen Rindt 27
64 1
65 1
66 2
67 9
68 6
69 4
70 4
Jack Brabham 15
64 4
65 1
66 10
Jim Clark 13
64 4
65 5
66 1
67 3
Jackie Stewart 11
64 1
67 4
68 3
69 2
70 1
Ronnie Peterson 6
71 6
Denis Hulme 5
64 2
65 1
66 2
Francois Cevert 5
69 1
70 1
71 3
Jacky Ickx 5
67 3
70 2

The source of this data is Stefan Örnerdal's 'Formula 2 Register'.

Edited by brooster51, 15 January 2013 - 04:13.


#22 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:09

Now you'd done this nice work , it would have been good (sorry!) to know if there were years they did not win but participated .

#23 brooster51

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 07:33

Bjorn,

Interesting question and result! If one of the Drivers didn’t win at least once in a year, they didn’t participate in that year or their participation was very limited. Not that surprising considering that of five of the eight were World Champions during this period. The two World Champions who aren’t shown, John Surtees and Graham Hill, did win races, just not five or more. All were multiple Formula One winners.

In summary, the following are the drivers that I’m reasonably confident participated but did not win in years between 64 and 71:

Jackie Stewart in 65 and 66
Ronnie Peterson in 1970
Denis Hulme in 67

Usually it appears that the car or engine wasn’t competitive. Jackie Stewart drove a Cooper – BRM 71 in 65 and a Matra MS 5 – Cosworth SCA in 66. The BRM wasn’t competitive with the Cosworth in 65 and the Cosworth wasn’t competitive with the Honda in 66. Ronnie Peterson drove a March 702 – Ford/Cosworth FVA in 1970. Denis Hulme was mostly occupied with Sport Cars especially the Can-Am and his entries were limited.

As a former, now retired, manager of a decision support group in a large organization, I do data! At least where I’m interested. However, the question, the non-participation, is a harder question to answer and I could have made an error.

Regards,

#24 brooster51

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 07:42

Stefan,

By the way, both Giacomelli (78) and Jarier (73) won eight out twelve entries in the European Trophy. Jarier won an additonal non-championship race in 73 and Giacomelli won three championship races in 77.

Regards

Edited by brooster51, 16 January 2013 - 07:43.


#25 Tim Murray

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:06

... Jarier (73) won eight out twelve entries in the European Trophy. Jarier won an additonal non-championship race in 73 ...

Jarier won seven championship races and one non-championship race in 1973. He scored maximum championship points at Pau, having finished second in the race to a graded driver (Cevert).

#26 brooster51

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 21:45

Jarier won seven championship races and one non-championship race in 1973. He scored maximum championship points at Pau, having finished second in the race to a graded driver (Cevert).


Oops, you're right! Sorry!

And to anyone with an interest in the Targa Florio (06 to 73), Le Mans (23 to current), Formula 2 (30 to 40 known as Voiturettes, 45 to 60 and 64 to 84), Formula Junior (58 to 63), Formula 3 (64 to 82 and filling in other years) , and non-championship Formula 1 (50 to 70) I submit that Stefan Örnerdal site, Formula 2 Register at http://www.formula2.net/ is a wonderful resource. At the level the detail is displayed, there are bound to be errors. But he does update individual races. An extemely wonderful site for people who are interested in these categories. An amazing piece of work!

Edited by brooster51, 16 January 2013 - 21:58.


#27 Ralliart

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 07:30

OK, I'm compulsive. I've always felt that the golden age of F2 was 64 to 71. You had two fairly consistent formula, 1 liter from 64 to 66 and then 1.6 liter from 67 to 71 and a lot of competition. After 71, the 2 liter era began and the participation of Graded drivers dropped off.This is obviously a personal opiniion and open for debate. The following table shows who won 'major' races in this period. I'll leave it to you whether this answers your question. Oh, 'major' means European races with a lot of depth in the entry, from top F1 drivers to the new comers. I cut it off at five wins in a season.

Jochen Rindt 27
64 1
65 1
66 2
67 9
68 6
69 4
70 4
Jack Brabham 15
64 4
65 1
66 10
Jim Clark 13
64 4
65 5
66 1
67 3
Jackie Stewart 11
64 1
67 4
68 3
69 2
70 1
Ronnie Peterson 6
71 6
Denis Hulme 5
64 2
65 1
66 2
Francois Cevert 5
69 1
70 1
71 3
Jacky Ickx 5
67 3
70 2
The source of this data is Stefan Örnerdal's 'Formula 2 Register'.
I show 28 for Rindt (seven in '68...Thruxton, Zolder, Crystal Palace, Hockenheim, Langenlebarn, Enna and Stainz).



#28 brooster51

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 09:08

Ralliart

I've not found any data for an event at a circuit named 'Stainz' in 68. I don't know if I'm missing data or what. Please let me know your source. We agree on the other events.

Regards

Edited by brooster51, 20 January 2013 - 09:09.


#29 alfredaustria

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 09:19

Ralliart

I've not found any data for an event at a circuit named 'Stainz' in 68. I don't know if I'm missing data or what. Please let me know your source. We agree on the other events.

Regards



Hi - Stainz is a small village in the south of Styria (Austria), which hosted the mountain-hill-race.

#30 Tim Murray

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 09:57

It would appear that Rindt did win the hillclimb event at Stainz in 1968 in a Winkelmann Brabham:

http://www.jochen-ri...ham_stainz.html

but as a (fairly minor) hillclimb it was presumably not restricted only to F2 cars, and a hillclimb is not the same thing as a circuit race.

#31 brooster51

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:47

It would appear that Rindt did win the hillclimb event at Stainz in 1968 in a Winkelmann Brabham:

http://www.jochen-ri...ham_stainz.html

but as a (fairly minor) hillclimb it was presumably not restricted only to F2 cars, and a hillclimb is not the same thing as a circuit race.


Thanks Tim,

I would not have included this in my data for the reasons you mentioned.

Respectfully yours,



#32 brooster51

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 08:58

It would appear that Rindt did win the hillclimb event at Stainz in 1968 in a Winkelmann Brabham:

http://www.jochen-ri...ham_stainz.html

but as a (fairly minor) hillclimb it was presumably not restricted only to F2 cars, and a hillclimb is not the same thing as a circuit race.


Tim

I finally checked out the link you included in your post. If you look in the background you'll see one Helmut Marko in a McNamara Formula Vee!

Regards

#33 Tim Murray

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 22:35

Yes indeed Bruce - he and Jochen were good friends, I think.