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Marko hits out at Vettel Critics [split]


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#451 fabr68

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 23:50

The team principals can say what they want. The fact is Massa was quicker than Alonso down the stretch, when the pressure was on. This is when champions step forward and win. Also-rans can't handle the pressure as well and fail.

In my opinion Alonso's failure in stretch runs demonstrates his mental fragility, and his need to politic confirms it. This is why I agree with Marko.


Massa quicker than Alonso? When, where?

Alonso finished on the podium on most races at the end. Political gameship is not what caused Grosjean to destroy his car and lose all the possible points (3) he needed to be champion.

I can see that in Alonso crashing in Brazil against backmarkers or earning penalties out of lack of emotional control in the cockpit a sign of mental fragility. But Alonso did not do any of this. His driving performance was close to flawless the whole season as confirmed by the majority of team principals. Alonso was not involved in a bitching battle with Red Bull while he was racing to the point that would distract him from the track. So Marko's comments are more political than anything else.

Besides, Marko coming out to complain about three-month-old comments from Alonso is quite comical. Obviously, he is still pissed off about them.

In any case, the political games are on. :lol:

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#452 Kingshark

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:28

Anyone who says Alonso can't drive under championship pressure needs to re-watch Suzuka 2006. If anything, it was Vettel who choked with three races to go this season.

Edited by Kingshark, 24 January 2013 - 01:29.


#453 bourbon

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:16

Massa quicker than Alonso? When, where?

Alonso finished on the podium on most races at the end. Political gameship is not what caused Grosjean to destroy his car and lose all the possible points (3) he needed to be champion.

I can see that in Alonso crashing in Brazil against backmarkers or earning penalties out of lack of emotional control in the cockpit a sign of mental fragility. But Alonso did not do any of this. His driving performance was close to flawless the whole season as confirmed by the majority of team principals. Alonso was not involved in a bitching battle with Red Bull while he was racing to the point that would distract him from the track. So Marko's comments are more political than anything else.

Besides, Marko coming out to complain about three-month-old comments from Alonso is quite comical. Obviously, he is still pissed off about them.

In any case, the political games are on. :lol:


Why can't Marko just be giving his truthful opinion? You don't have to agree, but I don't think it is fair to construe him as speaking out of bitterness or anger. Vettel came through the Jr. Program and is now the youngest WDC in the history of the sport. Regardless of what anyone thinks, the basic fact is that it is an absolutely remarkable achievement - and Marko is very proud to have done his bit. Which means, there is very little room for the rancor and sour grapes he is being accused of regarding his comments - not just concerning Alonso, but Webber and Stewart also.

I don't think that we can know for certain, but I think there is a better argument that he is just speaking his mind, rather than him dabbling in politics himself or speaking out of emotion.

#454 apoka

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:19

Anyone who says Alonso can't drive under championship pressure needs to re-watch Suzuka 2006. If anything, it was Vettel who choked with three races to go this season.

I would say that there is even less evidence of Vettel choking under pressure - quite the contrary. Seriously, had it been Senna in Vettel's car in Abu Dhabi and Brazil, those drives would probably be hailed as some of the very best - at least in my opinion. (That said, I think Spa was Vettel's best race this year, but that may not be remembered for long, because Button won and it was not at the end of the WDC race.)

I think the main issue with Marko's comments in general is not that they are wrong or political, but that his statements can be quite rude and blant. Because of that, I usually find him to be a very interesting source of information, although I often don't really agree with how he is handling things.


#455 mnmracer

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:04

Why do people always feel the need to make up things? Let's get some facts straight:
1. Marko did not say Vettel was the better driver this year, he just said a lot of the criticisms (overtaking, midfield driving) are bullshit.
2. The only thing the teambosses 'said' with their votes, was that Alonso was the better driver than Vettel this year. They DID NOT say Alonso was a driving god, they DID NOT say Alonso (or Vettel) was flawless, they DID NOT say Alonso was miles better, they DID NOT say Alonso was not miles better. All they said was: "we considered Alonso the better driver this year". Saying they rated Alonso 10/10 vs Vettel 7/10 or anything in between is just speculation.

#456 mnmracer

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:15

Anyone who says Alonso can't drive under championship pressure needs to re-watch Suzuka 2006. If anything, it was Vettel who choked with three races to go this season.

Not sure what you saw, but I've seen Alonso, who needed to finish ahead of Schumacher, be well behind before the Ferrari blew up.
2007 and 2010 have been talked about plentiful.
2012, same deal as in 2006; in Brazil he was unable to make it into championship scoring position without misfortune at the front.
Let's not make things up ok?

#457 Konsta

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:25

Not sure what you saw, but I've seen Alonso, who needed to finish ahead of Schumacher, be well behind before the Ferrari blew up.
2007 and 2010 have been talked about plentiful.
2012, same deal as in 2006; in Brazil he was unable to make it into championship scoring position without misfortune at the front.
Let's not make things up ok?

You are being overly harsh. Alonso overtook MS like a driving god he is. The fact that MS´s car broke down is totally irrelevant.

#458 gillesthegenius

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 12:05

The people who claim Sebastian choked in Brazil need to examine Suzuka a little more closely. There are good reasons to believe, atleast on my side, that Alonso's uncharacteristically hasty start there, that resulted in him being punted out, was a result of the pressure of seeing his massive lead on Seb diminishing too fast for his liking.

#459 choyothe

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 12:42

Everyone knows Alonso is mentally clearly weaker than Vettel, the respective track records in their career speak loudly for that.

Yeah, what do those team principals know! :rolleyes:


Didn't the team principals vote Vettel the driver of the year in 2009-2011? So do they know or don't they?

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#460 choyothe

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 12:44

You are being overly harsh. Alonso overtook MS like a driving god he is. The fact that MS´s car broke down is totally irrelevant.


:rotfl: Exactly, Alonso 2006 is vintage 'Inheritor'-performance, puncture for Massa and engine for Schumi.

#461 ImaCobra

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 12:48

Vettel will be the target of hatred as long as he stays as the new big thing. When Hamilton came in the sport Alonso and Kimi fans disliked him from the get go because he was a huge threat, a guy who was looking likely to win a championship on his maiden season, undermining their statuses as the best drivers in F1. Lucky for Hamilton, soon after him came Vettel and Kimi dropped out of the radar. Now this new threat unified Alonso and Hamilton fans. Suddenly it was an easy compromise that they can share the glory as long as this new guy gets none of it. X = Y > Z is far more appealing than Z > X≠Y.

When the new hotshot arrives and starts impressing people, Vettel will slowly integrate to the Hamilton-Alonso group. It will be "these three are the undisputed best drivers in F1 and this new guy is nothing" instead of just the two. Something new and unknown shaking the foundations is far scarier than an already established threat.

Fan behavior is at the same time interesting and ridiculous.

Edited by ImaCobra, 24 January 2013 - 13:55.


#462 Konsta

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 13:36

:rotfl: Exactly, Alonso 2006 is vintage 'Inheritor'-performance, puncture for Massa and engine for Schumi.

What I cannot understand why Suzuka 2006 was raised as a showcase event for FA´s capabilities - and by a FA fan of all things.

Back to the original topic - I disliked Marko´s comments about Webber but I think that they were not far off regarding FA. Had FA stayed quiet and especially not blabbered his awkward samurai-stuff then we would not be having this discussion. In the end, when the going got really tough, Flippy was better than FA and that has to be the biggest surprize of 2012.

#463 BoschKurve

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 13:59

Everyone knows Alonso is mentally clearly weaker than Vettel, the respective track records in their career speak loudly for that.


Since you were bold enough to make this statement, can you tell me what exactly the specific criteria is that makes Alonso mentally weaker than Vettel?

#464 boldhakka

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 14:09

Vettel will be the target of hatred as long as he stays as the new big thing. When Hamilton came in the sport Alonso and Kimi fans disliked him from the get go because he was a huge threat, a guy who was looking likely to win a championship on his maiden season, undermining their statuses as the best drivers in F1. Lucky for Hamilton, soon after him came Vettel and Kimi dropped out of the radar. Now this new threat unified Alonso and Hamilton fans. Suddenly it was an easy compromise that they can share the glory as long as this new guy gets none of it. X = Y > Z is far more appealing than Z > X≠Y.

When the new hotshot arrives and starts impressing people, Vettel will slowly integrate to the Hamilton-Alonso group. It will be "these three are the undisputed best drivers in F1 and this new guy is nothing" instead of just the two. Something new and unknown shaking the foundations is far scarier than an already established threat.

Fan behavior is at the same time interesting and ridiculous.


Interesting observations. :up:

#465 Crossmax

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 14:21

Vettel will be the target of hatred as long as he stays as the new big thing. When Hamilton came in the sport Alonso and Kimi fans disliked him from the get go because he was a huge threat, a guy who was looking likely to win a championship on his maiden season, undermining their statuses as the best drivers in F1. Lucky for Hamilton, soon after him came Vettel and Kimi dropped out of the radar. Now this new threat unified Alonso and Hamilton fans. Suddenly it was an easy compromise that they can share the glory as long as this new guy gets none of it. X = Y > Z is far more appealing than Z > X≠Y.

When the new hotshot arrives and starts impressing people, Vettel will slowly integrate to the Hamilton-Alonso group. It will be "these three are the undisputed best drivers in F1 and this new guy is nothing" instead of just the two. Something new and unknown shaking the foundations is far scarier than an already established threat.

Fan behavior is at the same time interesting and ridiculous.

Spot on, every word and every sentence.

#466 gillesthegenius

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 14:28

Since you were bold enough to make this statement, can you tell me what exactly the specific criteria is that makes Alonso mentally weaker than Vettel?


I dont know about who is weaker and who is stronger. But Fuji 07, Abu Dhabi 10 and Suzuka 12 and even Suzuka 06 to a certain extent dont reflect very well on Alonso's performances when the title battle heats up.

#467 Winter98

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 14:54

Yeah, what do those team principals know! :rolleyes:


You misunderstood.

My point is that they don't necessarily speak the truth.

#468 MarileneRiddle

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 18:52

I shall just state first that, while not necessarily a Dr. Marko fan, I respect him. And I like Sebastian Vettel. *prepares for onslaught*

I think that, for all the verbal hits at each other, Dr. Marko and Mark Webber are eerily similar. Both a little brash in driving style, known for straight-talking, and absolutely take no punches without retort. So I am pretty sure that Webber can see that, without the negative implications, what Dr. Marko said was rather factual. That said, I won't be surprised if there is a future rebuttal from the driver. I personally hope it comes in the form of an improved performance in 2013. After all, sixth when your team mate wins the WDC is, frankly, dismal.

Next, regarding the 'politic-king Alonso', I don't believe Dr. Marko has said anything wrong either. His implications, however, we may be free to disagree with. It is rather obvious that Alonso has a hand in mind games wherever he goes. Dr. Marko then immediately follows up with the idea that stress has piled up on Alonso towards the end of the season. While separately, both statements are true (note he did not specifically state that the stress affected Alonso negatively, just that it was there), the fact that they are printed one after another implies Alonso's mind games had led him off track. Here is where the fact that it was a printed interview in the Red Bulletin comes to play. Red Bull wants the notion that Alonso is not mentally strong to be implied. But when printed, they can say they never explicitly stated that. Dr. Marko has his repartee to Alonso's "we're fighting Newey (and Sebastian)."

I personally doubt Alonso is as strong as Sebastian mentally (I dare say Sebastian is the best on the grid in this regard). But nonetheless, Alonso ought to be pretty good at holding his emotions back to win 2 back-to-back championships. Either way, we cannot decisively prove anything. Yet the fact that we are even debating Alonso's mental strength would be a plus in Red Bull's book. Mission accomplished, I would say. (And here some fans would claim "but we never questioned Alonso". Yeah, well the Red Bulletin was probably not written for you guys in mind.)

Another segment I find particularly interesting is when Dr. Marko stated Enzo Ferrari would acknowledge the opposition before rallying his troops to do better ('rather than fighting dirty' was probably implied). My interpretation is that Dr. Marko has noticed how, in recent times, Ferrari has gone from forefront constructor, to foremost detractor. My best way of illustrating what I mean is that instead of building up a car to match (or even overshadow) their peers, Ferrari chooses to tear down all new innovations so that no one can say they are better. (You can read my further rant on destructive Ferrari here.) Possible implication? The current people at Ferrari are not living up to their history, and so resort to other tactics to bring us down. These tactics Dr. Marko claims Red Bull ignored. I agree to the extent that they ignored it to begin with. However, after the war was won, I cannot help noticing that Ferrari's tactics have been rehashed. So maybe it was only temporarily ignored? (AKA forgiven but not forgotten) Not that I can blame them. I personally bear grudges for a long time. :lol:

And finally, Dr. Marko looking like Sebastian's number 1 fanboy. Firstly, I vehemently disagree with that statement because I firmly believe that Sebastian's real fans don't seek credit for themselves. So Dr. Marko is really just Dr. Marko (and the Red Bull Young Drivers' Programme)'s number 1 fanboy. I do agree that Dr. Marko is usually rather complimentary towards Sebastian. However, in this particular interview, the good doctor didn't really come out and praise Sebastian, did he? Yes, he affirmed that Sebastian's talents include overtaking and is not only due to a Newey-car. But the main gist of the interview was more of "we'll keep Sebastian for as long as we match (because he is good) but when we part we can still get someone else to replace him". That is definitely not meant to promote Sebastian. Rather it is to say Red Bull now has a pedigree to attract and groom future champions. An understandably self-serving statement for the in-house magazine.

As for the Sebastian Vettel hatred, I completely agree with ImaCobra's view on fanboy-ism. I understand too when his driving style gets called boring or is criticized as an 'unworthy' :p champion. The only time I get fed up is whenever someone disparages on his personality (calling him fake or arrogant or anything negative without first hand meeting him). That is just inconsiderate and unnecessary. :down:

#469 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 21:09

(...) The only time I get fed up is whenever someone disparages on his personality (calling him fake or arrogant or anything negative without first hand meeting him). That is just inconsiderate and unnecessary. :down:


Can you understand when Alonso fans would like the same courtesy extended to Alonso?

#470 Kingshark

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 21:14

:rotfl: Exactly, Alonso 2006 is vintage 'Inheritor'-performance, puncture for Massa and engine for Schumi.

You left out the part where Alonso lost more points than Schumacher due misfortunes in 2006, despite driving a car no faster (if not slower), and still he won the championship by 13 points, that's a win and a 6th place. :wave:

#471 Winter98

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 21:30

Can you understand when Alonso fans would like the same courtesy extended to Alonso?


Alonso is constantly politicing in the press, and that makes him fair game in my books.

As I have said before, I have no problem with drivers saying stupid stuff in the heat of battle. It happens. But if you are going to take part in a media campaign based on demeaning another driver, one you can't beat on the track, you should expect some blow back.

Just my opinion of course.

#472 np93

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 22:13

With regards to Alonso and Vettel's personalities. I have had the very great pleasure of actually meeting Sebastian Vettel 3 times (at Silverstone in 08,09,10), and each time he was extremely pleasant, going around signing anything the crowd shoved under his nose..... Alonso, and Raikkonen for that matter, never once even stopped on their way into the paddock, Raikkonen never even got out of his Maserati. This is why I prefer Vettel as a person to Alonso; it wasn't a chore for him to speak to about 60 people on the way through, especially considering it didn't stop raining in 2008 until about half way through the race, and to me it showed true depth of character. In terms of driver ability, Alonso has been considered 'the most complete driver' since mid-08 as far as I know, and he hasn't really made any major mistakes to prove otherwise. But in my opinion, Vettel is quicker in qualifying, and better at fully exploiting a race strategy (see Monaco 2012). With regards to Alonso's political stance; he does seem to be attempting to antagonise certain members of the paddock, though as long as it doesn't deteriorate into Piquet/Mansell slander, then it's ok in my book, I don't support it, but there's not much wrong with it when reasonable discussion of his opinions can take place.

#473 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 22:21

^^ Lauda said to me he had no time in '83, and it would seem to me quite foolish to conclude a lack of character. But to each his own.

#474 np93

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 22:35

I was actually lucky enough to be in that position pre-Vettel as well, for 05,06 and 07, with no Alonso/Raikkonen showings then either. Maybe a lack of character is the wrong phrase, it was more disregard for fans who had waited hours to see their respective driver, only to be ignored; no time every Saturday/Sunday over 6 years? I know Alonso wasn't friendly with the British press, and British fans in general post 07, but still, acknowledgement of the crowd would have been polite.

#475 MarileneRiddle

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 23:12

Can you understand when Alonso fans would like the same courtesy extended to Alonso?

Totally. And I do hope I have not offended any Alonso fan with my words. After all, I was once an Alonso fan too. :wave:
If it sounded negative when I mentioned Alonso being prone to mind games, I apologize, but I really meant it as a neutral comment. I personally never had problem with mind games (after all I like Jose Mourinho  ;) ).

As I have said before, I have no problem with drivers saying stupid stuff in the heat of battle. It happens. But if you are going to take part in a media campaign based on demeaning another driver, one you can't beat on the track, you should expect some blow back.

I am not sure Alonso meant it as an outright media campaign to demean Sebastian. He has yet to criticize Sebastian personally in any way. But with the professional downplaying Alonso does, I do admit I was rather unhappy whenever he implied Sebastian wasn't as talented.

I have had the very great pleasure of actually meeting Sebastian Vettel 3 times (at Silverstone in 08,09,10), and each time he was extremely pleasant, going around signing anything the crowd shoved under his nose.....

Lucky you! I waved at some drivers who were walking the track (in Singapore 2011), but they mostly seemed quite friendly. I missed Webber and the McLaren drivers, but everyone else at least acknowledged my shouts of their name with a nod or a wave. Nico Rosberg was particularly enthusiastic, and Sebastian (despite the throng of reporters around him) posed for photographs. :D Alonso just waved as he rode past on his bike.

Raikkonen never even got out of his Maserati

I think Kimi just doesn't particularly like interacting with people on a whole. However, I did manage to meet him in an interview session in 2009. He was friendly to the interviewer and spoke rather freely except when the topic turned to the F1 season and Ferrari's performance. He was also okay with shaking hands but didn't pose for photos or sign any autographs.

#476 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 23:41

Totally. And I do hope I have not offended any Alonso fan with my words. After all, I was once an Alonso fan too. :wave:
If it sounded negative when I mentioned Alonso being prone to mind games, I apologize, but I really meant it as a neutral comment. I personally never had problem with mind games (after all I like Jose Mourinho ;) ).


Speaking for myself, obviously, I had not problem whatsoever with what you wrote, just wanted to ask and see if you're a part of the reasonable crowd. Glad that you are :kiss:

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 24 January 2013 - 23:42.


#477 boldhakka

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 03:07

The only time I get fed up is whenever someone disparages on his personality.


Integrity and character are a big part of sporting behavior and do show up on track. In that context it's fair to discuss a driver's personality.

I don't think drivers owe anything to the fans, so judging them on whether they shake hands, say hello, and so forth is silly, IMO.

Alonso is incredibly clean on track, it has to be said. But to argue that he isn't political shows a lack of understanding of F1 in the last decade or so. It is his prerogative to try and use all resources available to him, political or otherwise, of course.

If he wants to shake his fist at the McLaren pit wall in Indi 2007, to try and influence a team order, that's cool. But he has to be honest about what it is, and not claim later that he was cooling his engine. :lol: I forgot how embarrassing that year was for Fernando, he failed miserably on track as well as with his politics.

Edited by boldhakka, 25 January 2013 - 03:18.


#478 MarileneRiddle

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 03:30

Integrity and character are a big part of sporting behavior and do show up on track. In that context it's fair to discuss a driver's personality.

I don't think drivers owe anything to the fans, so judging them on whether they shake hands, say hello, and so forth is silly, IMO.

Alonso is incredibly clean on track, it has to be said. But to argue that he isn't political shows a lack of understanding of F1 in the last decade or so. It is his prerogative to try and use all resources available to him, political or otherwise, of course.

If he wants to shake his fist at the McLaren pit wall in Indi 2007, to try and influence a team order, that's cool. But he has to be honest about what it is, and not claim later that he was cooling his engine. :lol:


That is why I specifically used the word 'disparage' rather than 'discuss'. It is okay when we discuss whether Alonso is a political person, or if Sebastian may be a little quick to complain on his radio. But then uncalled claims like those who say they hate Sebastian's 'arrogance' when all they have seen is his accustomed finger celebration, or those who call Sebastian 'fake' and that Dr. Marko is voicing Sebastian's thoughts, well those are just not true. Then using this false image of Sebastian they build up, they say he is an unworthy champion, or a whining brat and so on. That is what I find unfair.

If you have truly experienced anything first hand, only then can you voice it. Otherwise, just spreading rumours on the driver's behaviours is just wrong. :evil:

And I think the same applies to those who think Alonso is this evil mastermind, or Hamilton a reckless driver.

#479 bourbon

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:45

Vettel will be the target of hatred as long as he stays as the new big thing. When Hamilton came in the sport Alonso and Kimi fans disliked him from the get go because he was a huge threat, a guy who was looking likely to win a championship on his maiden season, undermining their statuses as the best drivers in F1. Lucky for Hamilton, soon after him came Vettel and Kimi dropped out of the radar. Now this new threat unified Alonso and Hamilton fans. Suddenly it was an easy compromise that they can share the glory as long as this new guy gets none of it. X = Y > Z is far more appealing than Z > X≠Y.

When the new hotshot arrives and starts impressing people, Vettel will slowly integrate to the Hamilton-Alonso group. It will be "these three are the undisputed best drivers in F1 and this new guy is nothing" instead of just the two. Something new and unknown shaking the foundations is far scarier than an already established threat.

Fan behavior is at the same time interesting and ridiculous.


Well that doesn't describe me in the least bit at all. I have to assume there are others it does not describe as well. We know it does not apply to Marko, lol. I don't think one can generalize that way. Now if you are referring to the loudest bunch on this BB - well then you may have a point. :D But you will never see me lump those drivers together at a level - comparatively or otherwise.

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#480 azda

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:23

SV has only won in a supercar? Alonso has won in something other than a supercar?

Can you please provide the full telemetry, for the entire year, from their cars and the other cars on the grid at the time?

If you can't, then these claims as to which cars were supercars, and which ones weren't, is purely conjecture on your part


There is no need for full telemetry when we already have something much better which is lap times, the ultimate measure of speed, and the lap times prove the Redbull was significantly faster than the Ferrari.

I think it would be fair to say it was one of the fastest along with Ferrari and McLaren. Without the actual team data, and a few experts in various fields to help evaluate all the factors that would go into deciding which car is "best", it would be impossible to say with any certainty.

Down the stretch Massa found speed in the Ferrari. Just because Alonso couldn't match him and let yet another WDC slip away is not sufficient reason to say the Ferrari was slow.


The Redbull was significantly faster than the Ferrari in about 15 out of 20 races last season, so I am not sure how you determined they were evenly matched. Could you provide a explanation to your reasoning? Massa found slightly more speed than Alonso in a few races at the end but importantly, not enough to make a difference to the final results. Alonso still maximised and out scored Vettel is a clearly slower car which was as usual an amazing feat.

or Alonso zealots trying to explain away their hero's loss by claiming the 2012 RBR was a super car


It was though, according to the pitlane and vast majority of fans, and the lap times.

He finished second when he had a car, as proven by Massa, that was quick enough to win it all


Simply not true at all. Massa was still miles behind front running pace.

Vettel did exactly what he had to do to win the WDC. He obviously correctly assessed the risk/reward of what he did, because if he hadn't Alonso would be WDC


That's a creative interpretation of Vettel being outscored by Alonso in the final crucial races. I thought you said champions deliver when it matters? Vettels spinning and crashing his way to 6th in the final race and almost losing the title was hardly an example of that. Lucky for him he was saved by the Ferrari's inherent lack of pace.

Obviously Vettel got the better of the mental game by almost completely ignoring Alonso


Vettel got the better of it by having the fastest car when it mattered, while Alonso had to fight and scrape to qualify in 7th position.

#481 azda

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:24

Apparently you don't understand how the scoring in F1 works. The ultimate goal is to win the WCC and WDC. In order to do that you have to have more points at the end of the year. This is the same in virtually every sport on the planet: You need the best record as per the rules to win the championship.

Because the idea is to end up with the best record, down the stretch the team that is ahead will often be more defensive, and run the opposition out of time or in this case laps. Virtually every professional team or athlete does this. Watch Soccer, Hockey, Basketball, Curling, Football, or any other sport. Of course this strategy doesn't guarentee a championshihp. If you're not good enough, or are prone to falter under pressure, you can still lose the championship, as Alonso demonstrated in 2010.

Hope that helps.



So Vettel deliberately spun and crashed his way to 6th in the final race, almost losing the title. Ok thanks I get it now. Pure driving genius.

#482 azda

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:28

IMO the Ferrari and McLaren were right there with the RBR on any given Sunday.

I'm just not buying all the politicing. I've read all the arguments on both sides, and that's my opinion, although it my differ from yours.


No need to look into arguments. Just look at the lap times, they are your friend.

Clark was arguably one of the greatest drivers of all time, and had a career far beyond F1, so its hardly fair to say his F1 career is supposed to define him.

Same can be said of Moss. F1 was only a small part of his driving resume, so it is unfair to use it to define him.


F1 drivers careers are defined by their F1 careers and nothing more, and always has been.


You can argue that point, and you may even be correct (although I dont think so obviously), but becoming the youngest 3 time WDC by a mile, and accomplishing what only two drivers, two of the greatest in the history of F1, have done guarentees Vettel a spot amongst the legends. The same can't be said for Alonso or Hamilton, unless they improve their resumes.

You can consider it unfair, but it's the way history works.


According to you. The vast majority of fans and pundits who rate Alonso the best driver on the grid obviously disagree with your opinion.

#483 azda

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:42

As for Alonso's comments. They might not have been politically correct or polite but they were 100% true, which is why they hit a nerve with Redbull and their fans, and why pretty much everyone agrees with his comments, including Jackie Stewart who said last year Vettels success was down to the Newey factor. It's just stating the bleeding obvious. If anyone knows anything about politicing its Marko whos entire job consists of it, ensuring his driver Vettel is looked after, and his enemy Mark Webber is undermined internally and publically as much as possible.

Hopefully one day Vettel will grow his own wings and leave Redbull and win a race and have success without Newey and prove everyone wrong that he relies on him for everything, and prove he really is great, and not just a driver who profited from the perfect storm, unlike any other in history. Best car for an extended period developed to suit his personal needs, his own personal corner man , Marko, undermining his team mate, and an ordinary number 2 team mate who can't go more than a race without KERS or clutch issues.

Edited by azda, 26 January 2013 - 01:58.


#484 azda

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:44

I'm sure he is.

You've just won the championship three years in a row, and the second place finisher is acting like a spoiled five year old trying to demean your accomplishments, making himself look like a complete **** in the process. How could you not chuckle to yourself?



Yet his rival is being overwhelmingly lauded as the best driver on the grid and season, by the grid, fans and pundits. I think it would be irritating Vettel actually and he might be realising that greatness is much more than mere numbers and statistics. What's the use of success if you are not given credit for it? Little.

#485 Juggles

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:46

Totally. And I do hope I have not offended any Alonso fan with my words. After all, I was once an Alonso fan too. :wave:
If it sounded negative when I mentioned Alonso being prone to mind games, I apologize, but I really meant it as a neutral comment. I personally never had problem with mind games (after all I like Jose Mourinho ;) ).


I'd be interested to know why you moved from being an Alonso fan to a Vettel one, purely because it's quite an unusual support transfer. I know quite a lot of Raikkonen fans switched to Vettel when the former left the sport in 09 (and now support them both) but until this point I hadn't heard of either an Alonso or a Hamilton fan switching their allegiance to Vettel.

#486 bourbon

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 04:24

As for Alonso's comments. They might not have been politically correct or polite but they were 100% true, which is why they hit a nerve with Redbull and their fans, and why pretty much everyone agrees with his comments, including Jackie Stewart who said last year Vettels success was down to the Newey factor. It's just stating the bleeding obvious.


Why would it hit a nerve with Red Bull? They employ Newey to do exactly what he is doing and they won 6 cups while he was doing it. You may have some annoyed fans, but believe me, Red Bull is overjoyed because everytime Newey is complimented, it is confirmation of what a brilliant job they did in getting him to leave Macca and join the team.

Hopefully one day Vettel will grow his own wings and leave Redbull and win a race and have success without Newey and prove everyone wrong that he relies on him for everything, and prove he really is great, and not just a driver who profited from the perfect storm, unlike any other in history.


But what madness is this? What kind of fool would walk away from success in the manner you suggest? Only a very weak minded egoist would leave in the midst of so much success to try to please "everyone" - which is, by the way, absolutely impossible, lol. Your suggestion that he prove his greatness in a weaker car, with a weaker engineer, in a weaker team with a WDC teammate is nothing more than a recipe for disaster. What you are actually demanding is that he lose. He will prove nothing in a situation like that except that his ego is so big, he can be manipulated into losing by an overly loud small crowd of detractors. Luckily, his ego is not so big.

When Marko suggested that all the notions regarding the supremacy of the car being paramount are ignorable, he was right. It's always the car + driver.

Edited by bourbon, 26 January 2013 - 04:26.


#487 azda

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 04:47

But what madness is this? What kind of fool would walk away from success in the manner you suggest? Only a very weak minded egoist would leave in the midst of so much success to try to please "everyone" - which is, by the way, absolutely impossible, lol. Your suggestion that he prove his greatness in a weaker car, with a weaker engineer, in a weaker team with a WDC teammate is nothing more than a recipe for disaster. What you are actually demanding is that he lose. He will prove nothing in a situation like that except that his ego is so big, he can be manipulated into losing by an overly loud small crowd of detractors. Luckily, his ego is not so big.


What I am suggesting is exactly what Michael Schumacher and Fernando Alonso did, when they left their all conquering teams after double world championships, and went to a new team in completely foreign waters for a new challenge. That is why they are true greats. Michael dominated in the mid 90s, and went to a weak team struggling for race wins, to rebuild it. He was not scared of losing and showed no fear. True champions want to be tested and new challenges, much more than simply racking up statistics in the best car and conditions in the mistaken belief that is a path to greatness. Like I said I doubt Vettel is interested in doing such feats which is why he will never be rated alongside the true greats no matter how many titles or championships he wins. He is happy to sit in a dominant car with Marko protecting him and removing parts from his team mates car any time they are needed.


He will prove plenty. He will prove he does not rely on Newey for his success like so many drivers before him. He will prove he can win without the best car like so few have done before him. That's what separates the greats from the pretenders like Vettel and Hakkinen.

Edited by azda, 26 January 2013 - 04:50.


#488 gillesthegenius

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 05:20

What I am suggesting is exactly what Michael Schumacher and Fernando Alonso did, when they left their all conquering teams after double world championships, and went to a new team in completely foreign waters for a new challenge. That is why they are true greats. Michael dominated in the mid 90s, and went to a weak team struggling for race wins, to rebuild it. He was not scared of losing and showed no fear. True champions want to be tested and new challenges, much more than simply racking up statistics in the best car and conditions in the mistaken belief that is a path to greatness. Like I said I doubt Vettel is interested in doing such feats which is why he will never be rated alongside the true greats no matter how many titles or championships he wins. He is happy to sit in a dominant car with Marko protecting him and removing parts from his team mates car any time they are needed.


He will prove plenty. He will prove he does not rely on Newey for his success like so many drivers before him. He will prove he can win without the best car like so few have done before him. That's what separates the greats from the pretenders like Vettel and Hakkinen.


Yes Schumacher rose above all and prevailed brilliantly in that challenge that he took up. But what did Alonso actually do? I mean seirously what did he do?

He lost to a rookie and came back running to daddy (the same all conquering team that he left looking for a new challenge). On finding out that they were not as good as they were when he left, he didnt have enough guts to use his supposedly - falsy imo - very good developemental skills to help them back to glory. And guess what, he didnt even have the guts to join an up and coming team called Red Bull. He only wanted the security of the resourceful Ferrari and arrived in Maranello, only to find out that pulling off a Raikonnen - winning the WDC in the first go - wasnt a certainity like he thought. Instead he saw this young upstart, called Sebastian Vettel, conquering him again and again and decided to credit his success to the same Newey, whom he thought wasnt good enough when he was presented with an opportunity to work with.

And somehow, you think he took up a new challenge like Schumi did and proved that he was a great. Really? You kidding me?

Edited by gillesthegenius, 26 January 2013 - 05:26.


#489 azda

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 05:26

Yes Schumacher rose above all and prevailed brilliantly in that challenge that he took up. But what did Alonso actually do? I mean seirously what did he do?



He took up the challenge, and came within a hair of winning 3 world titles in two different teams. An exceptional feat only matched by a few drivers in history, and in the process solidified his status as one of the best ever. Even if he fails to win another title at least he dared to try, unlike Vettel so far who refuses to leave home sweet home.

#490 Kingshark

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 05:33

He lost to a rookie and came back running to daddy (the same all conquering team that he left looking for a new challenge).

Vettel has never had a teammate as good as Hamilton. Your point is invalid.

On finding out that they were not as good as they were when he left, he didnt have enough guts to use his supposedly - falsy imo - very good developemental skills to help them back to glory.

So if you're going to blame Alonso for Renault's noncompetitive cars in 2008-09, then you have to give him all the credit for what he did with Renault in 2005 and 2006. That doesn't work one way, it's a two way street.

And guess what, he didnt even have the guts to join an up and coming team called Red Bull. He only wanted the security of the resourceful Ferrari and arrived in Maranello, only to find out that pulling off a Raikonnen - winning the WDC in the first go - wasnt a certainity like he thought. Instead he saw this young upstart, called Sebastian Vettel, conquering him again and again and decided to credit his success to the same Newey, whom he thought wasnt good enough when he was presented with an opportunity to work with.

When Alonso went to Ferrari, they were in trouble, unable to adapt to the new regulations. What the teams were like pre-2008 is irrelevant as the rules changed drastically in 2009. Red Bull have been a much quicker team ever since.

And you really think that writing in bold is going to make your points any more relevant?

#491 gillesthegenius

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 05:35

He took up the challenge, and came within a hair of winning 3 world titles in two different teams. An exceptional feat only matched by a few drivers in history, and in the process solidified his status as one of the best ever. Even if he fails to win another title at least he dared to try, unlike Vettel so far who refuses to leave home sweet home.


For you to call joining Mclaren (a team in which a rookie almost did something no one has ever done) you do seriously think that Alonso would have done better had he stayed at Renault for 2007, right? :lol:

As I, a Fernando fan back then, saw it, he went to his dream team; the team that he always wanted to race for; the team he thought had more resources than Renault to aid him in his quest to win championships. He didnt go there looking for a challenge, like Schumi did. He went there for the same reason he rejectedthen nobodies Red Bull, for Ferrari in 2010.

#492 azda

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 05:39

For you to call joining Mclaren (a team in which a rookie almost did something no one has ever done) you do seriously think that Alonso would have done better had he stayed at Renault for 2007, right? :lol:

As I, a Fernando fan back then, saw it, he went to his dream team; the team that he always wanted to race for; the team he thought had more resources than Renault to aid him in his quest to win championships. He didnt go there looking for a challenge, like Schumi did. He went there for the same reason he rejectedthen nobodies Red Bull, for Ferrari in 2010.



Alonso could not read the future. He went to a team that had won zero races in the previous year while he had won the title and 7 races. That does not look like much of a step forward at the time, so it was a big gamble. Once again whether he fails or not is secondary to trying. Let's see if Vettel has the confidence in his ability to leave Newey and Marko's nest. Surely as a Vettel fan you would like to see him challenged. Heck I would be happy for Redbull to finally hire a decent team mate instead of continuing to pay Webber's pension.

Edited by azda, 26 January 2013 - 05:41.


#493 Kingshark

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 05:45

For you to call joining Mclaren (a team in which a rookie almost did something no one has ever done) you do seriously think that Alonso would have done better had he stayed at Renault for 2007, right? :lol:

As I, a Fernando fan back then, saw it, he went to his dream team; the team that he always wanted to race for; the team he thought had more resources than Renault to aid him in his quest to win championships. He didnt go there looking for a challenge, like Schumi did. He went there for the same reason he rejectedthen nobodies Red Bull, for Ferrari in 2010.


2006
Renault won 8 races.
McLaren won 0.
Alonso choose McLaren over Renault.

2009
Red Bull won 6 races.
Ferrari won 1.
Alonso choose Ferrari over Red Bull.

Please stop your stupidity.

Lastly, history means nothing. Vettel can go to Williams for as far as I'm concerned, but I guess that would be a "step up" in your books, as historically Williams have won way more than Red Bull.

Edited by Kingshark, 26 January 2013 - 05:46.


#494 gillesthegenius

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 05:46

Vettel has never had a teammate as good as Hamilton. Your point is invalid.

So if you're going to blame Alonso for Renault's noncompetitive cars in 2008-09, then you have to give him all the credit for what he did with Renault in 2005 and 2006. That doesn't work one way, it's a two way street.

When Alonso went to Ferrari, they were in trouble, unable to adapt to the new regulations. What the teams were like pre-2008 is irrelevant as the rules changed drastically in 2009. Red Bull have been a much quicker team ever since.

And you really think that writing in bold is going to make your points any more relevant?


1) Losing to a rookie is no way to prove one's greatness, like our friend was trying to paint.
2) Who said I dont give credit to Alonso for his titles with Renault. Those are - with Damon Hill's title in 96 and Vettel's three on the go - titles that I wholeheartedly cheered for. Its just that I didnt buy the BS that our friend was sprouting out about how Alonso left Renault looking for a challenge.
3) As a then - upto 2008 - fan of Fernando, I know how much I wanted him to go to Ferrari and I know why I wanted him to go there. Its not because I wanted him to take up a new challenge. Its because I wanted him to win championships in the car, that I then thought was going to always keep my favourite driver in the hunt for championships.

Edited by gillesthegenius, 26 January 2013 - 07:01.


#495 Kingshark

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 05:51

He finished equal in points to a rookie, but no ordinary rookie. He tied Lewis Hamilton. Vettel has had a career full of sub-par to average teammates. You don't know how Vettel would react, if he suddenly had a teammate who was every bit as fast, if not faster than him. Therefore, to use 2007 against Alonso is stupid if you're a Vettel fan, or a fan of any driver who has never had a true competitive teammate.

#496 azda

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 05:55

Oh and you can add Hamilton to the list of drivers who have the guts to step out of their comfort zone and leave a great top team with the one of the fastest cars to join a failing team. Very impressive. Also my criticisms of Vettel have nothing to do with disliking him. I used to dislike Hamilton but had no problem acknowledging he was very special.

Edited by azda, 26 January 2013 - 05:57.


#497 Sakae

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 06:04

Oh and you can add Hamilton to the list of drivers who have the guts to step out of their comfort zone and leave a great top team with the one of the fastest cars to join a failing team. Very impressive. Also my criticisms of Vettel have nothing to do with disliking him. I used to dislike Hamilton but had no problem acknowledging he was very special.

Money grabbing of course have nothing to do with his "heroic" choice.

#498 gillesthegenius

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 06:06

2006
Renault won 8 races.
McLaren won 0.
Alonso choose McLaren over Renault.

2009
Red Bull won 6 races.
Ferrari won 1.
Alonso choose Ferrari over Red Bull.

Please stop your stupidity.

Lastly, history means nothing. Vettel can go to Williams for as far as I'm concerned, but I guess that would be a "step up" in your books, as historically Williams have won way more than Red Bull.


Dude. You are bringing facts that are out of context. The main reason he left Renault was because he knew they didnt have the funds to keep their level of success for long, as 2007 proved. In Mclaren, though they were not consistant, he saw a team that can almost always be there in the fight for world titles. Besides, it was his dream team. The only better option he had at that time was Ferrari. But Raikonnen had closed the door for any move towards Maranello.

And your RBR-Ferrari comparisons are way out of context. RBR approached him even before they had won even a single race, let alone 6 in a season. Even if he wanted to join RBR after the said year that you compare both teams, he probably wouldnt have been welcome as Vettel had established himself as their lead driver by then.

Edited by gillesthegenius, 26 January 2013 - 06:08.


#499 SpaMaster

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 06:08

What I am suggesting is exactly what Michael Schumacher and Fernando Alonso did, when they left their all conquering teams after double world championships, and went to a new team in completely foreign waters for a new challenge. That is why they are true greats. ..

This is where you should stop. Schumacher did that, yes. But it is the same that Alonso did? Alonso left Renault not for new challenge, but because Renault's future was not secure with factory backing about to be gone any time. McLaren were not nearly as bad as Ferrari used to be for 21 years without WDC. And when he did go there, it was a disaster. He then had to go back to his old team, which he bailed out without getting them back to championship level. What Alonso and Schumacher have done is nothing similar. May be Hamilton comes close to that in terms of the attempt. Will he succeed? We will have to wait and see.

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#500 gillesthegenius

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 06:15

He finished equal in points to a rookie, but no ordinary rookie. He tied Lewis Hamilton. Vettel has had a career full of sub-par to average teammates. You don't know how Vettel would react, if he suddenly had a teammate who was every bit as fast, if not faster than him. Therefore, to use 2007 against Alonso is stupid if you're a Vettel fan, or a fan of any driver who has never had a true competitive teammate.


Of course we dont know how Vettel would react. And of course Hamilton is better than all of Vettel's team mates. But your missing my point here. The point I was trying to make to the poster I was replying to.

That point being, if it helps to make it clear if its in bold (:D)...

Losing to anyone - whether it be rookie or a veteran - is not one of the ways to attain greatness