Jump to content


Photo
* * * * - 6 votes

Marko hits out at Vettel Critics [split]


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
642 replies to this topic

#501 azda

azda
  • New Member

  • 25 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 26 January 2013 - 06:19

Losing to anyone - whether it be rookie or a veteran - is not one of the ways to attain greatness


So Prost and Senna pushing each other to the limit and losing against each other did not contribute to their greatness?

It did greatly just as Alonso vs Hamilton did because it proved their could compete against the very best. Vettel has proven he can compete and usually beat Mark Webber. Nothing more, and even that is quite difficult often.

Advertisement

#502 azda

azda
  • New Member

  • 25 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 26 January 2013 - 06:23

This is where you should stop. Schumacher did that, yes. But it is the same that Alonso did? Alonso left Renault not for new challenge, but because Renault's future was not secure with factory backing about to be gone any time. McLaren were not nearly as bad as Ferrari used to be for 21 years without WDC. And when he did go there, it was a disaster. He then had to go back to his old team, which he bailed out without getting them back to championship level. What Alonso and Schumacher have done is nothing similar. May be Hamilton comes close to that in terms of the attempt. Will he succeed? We will have to wait and see.


What about Alonso joining Ferrari? winless and in a rebuilding stage, with no star personnel. They are at a lower point now than when Michael joined.

#503 gillesthegenius

gillesthegenius
  • Member

  • 2,534 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 26 January 2013 - 06:26

Alonso could not read the future. He went to a team that had won zero races in the previous year while he had won the title and 7 races. That does not look like much of a step forward at the time, so it was a big gamble. Once again whether he fails or not is secondary to trying. Let's see if Vettel has the confidence in his ability to leave Newey and Marko's nest. Surely as a Vettel fan you would like to see him challenged. Heck I would be happy for Redbull to finally hire a decent team mate instead of continuing to pay Webber's pension.


Your ignorance regarding the reason Fernando left Renault for Mclaren makes me wonder whether you were a fan of Fernando - I know I was - or even following f1 back in 2007. He left Renault, not because he wanted a new challenge, but because he was uncertain about Renault's ability to continue to produce good cars, while he saw Mclaren as team capable of producing championship contenders almost every year. He was not a fool back then to just make such a decision and the sense behind it became obvious the moment Renault and Mclaren ran their cars on track.

Similarly Vettel isnt, god willing, going to leave RBR untill he sees a better option elsewhere. Untill then you can keep dreaming. :D

Edited by gillesthegenius, 26 January 2013 - 06:39.


#504 gillesthegenius

gillesthegenius
  • Member

  • 2,534 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 26 January 2013 - 06:36

So Prost and Senna pushing each other to the limit and losing against each other did not contribute to their greatness?

It did greatly just as Alonso vs Hamilton did because it proved their could compete against the very best. Vettel has proven he can compete and usually beat Mark Webber. Nothing more, and even that is quite difficult often.


Prost's greatness came from winning world championships and beating every team mate he ever had untill he met Senna. He didnt become great by losing to Senna.

Senna too on the other hand became great by winning world championshps and beating all his team mates untill he met Prost. He didnt suddenly become great by losing to Prost.

Vettel is also beating all his team mates and winning world champioships. He doesnt have to, god forbid, lose to someone to prove that he is great. He just has to, god willing, keep winning to prove that he is great.

The problem with Alonso is that he lost to a rookie and he didnt have the guts to stay on and fight him again. Instead he ran away.

#505 SpaMaster

SpaMaster
  • Member

  • 5,856 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 26 January 2013 - 06:44

What about Alonso joining Ferrari? winless and in a rebuilding stage, with no star personnel.

That is not the "left their all conquering teams after double world championships .. for a new challenge" you mentioned, is it? He went to Ferrari because he had no other option.

They are at a lower point now than when Michael joined.

They were not at a lower point when Alonso joined. May be you mean they are lower now after Alonso joined?

Edited by SpaMaster, 26 January 2013 - 06:47.


#506 Kingshark

Kingshark
  • Member

  • 2,944 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 26 January 2013 - 07:15

Prost's greatness came from winning world championships and beating every team mate he ever had untill he met Senna. He didnt become great by losing to Senna.

Senna too on the other hand became great by winning world championshps and beating all his team mates untill he met Prost. He didnt suddenly become great by losing to Prost.

Vettel is also beating all his team mates and winning world champioships. He doesnt have to, god forbid, lose to someone to prove that he is great. He just has to, god willing, keep winning to prove that he is great.

The problem with Alonso is that he lost to a rookie and he didnt have the guts to stay on and fight him again. Instead he ran away.

:rotfl:

No, what has made both Alonso and Hamilton so great, is that they have taken each other on as teammates, and proved to be equals.

You honestly think that Senna and Prost's legacy grew or shrunk after they took each other on as teammates, and were equals?

So far, Vettel has proven himself to be better than... Mark Webber, Tonio Liuzzi, and Sebastien Boudrais. :stoned:

He has also proven that he can win championships and >20 races in a Newey car. Then again, so did Damon Hill. :drunk:

Until Vettel takes on a competitive teammate, Vettel fans are unwise to judge Alonso's 2007.

Edited by Kingshark, 26 January 2013 - 07:19.


#507 apoka

apoka
  • Member

  • 3,482 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 26 January 2013 - 07:31

Yet his rival is being overwhelmingly lauded as the best driver on the grid and season, by the grid, fans and pundits. I think it would be irritating Vettel actually and he might be realising that greatness is much more than mere numbers and statistics. What's the use of success if you are not given credit for it? Little.

Black and white very much? Alonso is praised for his consistency, clean and fast racing and keeping a car in the WDC challenge, which was not very competitive early in the season. Vettel is praised for extracting much from the car when it was not the very best, dominating when it was the best, his come back drives in Abu Dhabi, Brazil and Spa and finally winning the WDC from 40 points back. They both had great seasons and just because many (but not all) pundits rate Alonso as driver of the year does not mean that Vettel was not very similar in terms of performance and it certinaly does not mean that the WDC is worth "little". By the way, greatness is not achieved in only a single season and last year Vettel was overwhelmingly rated as the best driver of the season. Both Vettel and Alonso are probably top 10 all time greats already due to their performance in the last 5 and 10 years, respectively.


#508 gillesthegenius

gillesthegenius
  • Member

  • 2,534 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 26 January 2013 - 07:46

:rotfl:

No, what has made both Alonso and Hamilton so great, is that they have taken each other on as teammates, and proved to be equals.

You honestly think that Senna and Prost's legacy grew or shrunk after they took each other on as teammates, and were equals?

So far, Vettel has proven himself to be better than... Mark Webber, Tonio Liuzzi, and Sebastien Boudrais. :stoned:

He has also proven that he can win championships and >20 races in a Newey car. Then again, so did Damon Hill. :drunk:

Until Vettel takes on a competitive teammate, Vettel fans are unwise to judge Alonso's 2007.


Thats right. Damon Hill. The same guy who almost won in an Arrows and won in the wet in a Jordan. :D

Damon may not have been consisitant. But he was a mighty talent. No driver matches Alain Prost in the second half of his first full season without being a mighty talent. Its just that he couldnt fine tune that talent to deliver more consistantly, as a result of taking up single seaters so late that he was about the age others actually entered f1 when he did so.

In any case, I think we are drifting way off topic and neither of us is going to convince each other about Alonso and 2007.

So I agree to disagree and move on. Do you?;)

Edited by gillesthegenius, 26 January 2013 - 07:59.


#509 azda

azda
  • New Member

  • 25 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 26 January 2013 - 07:48

Black and white very much? Alonso is praised for his consistency, clean and fast racing and keeping a car in the WDC challenge, which was not very competitive early in the season. Vettel is praised for extracting much from the car when it was not the very best, dominating when it was the best, his come back drives in Abu Dhabi, Brazil and Spa and finally winning the WDC from 40 points back. They both had great seasons and just because many (but not all) pundits rate Alonso as driver of the year does not mean that Vettel was not very similar in terms of performance and it certinaly does not mean that the WDC is worth "little". By the way, greatness is not achieved in only a single season and last year Vettel was overwhelmingly rated as the best driver of the season. Both Vettel and Alonso are probably top 10 all time greats already due to their performance in the last 5 and 10 years, respectively.


Vettel trailed Webber until Spa, when the car was not the very best. That's nothing to be praising at all, considering Webbers calibre and consistent clutch and KERS problems. Until he achieves success without the best car, or performs strongly against Alonso or Hamilton in the same car, Vettel cannot be considered top 10 material, because he has simply not proven it. You must do extraordinary things to reach those lofty heights of history. Come back drives in the fastest car are a dime a dozen.

Edited by azda, 26 January 2013 - 07:49.


#510 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 6,031 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 26 January 2013 - 08:00

What I am suggesting is exactly what Michael Schumacher and Fernando Alonso did, when they left their all conquering teams after double world championships, and went to a new team in completely foreign waters for a new challenge. That is why they are true greats. Michael dominated in the mid 90s, and went to a weak team struggling for race wins, to rebuild it. He was not scared of losing and showed no fear. True champions want to be tested and new challenges, much more than simply racking up statistics in the best car and conditions in the mistaken belief that is a path to greatness. Like I said I doubt Vettel is interested in doing such feats which is why he will never be rated alongside the true greats no matter how many titles or championships he wins. He is happy to sit in a dominant car with Marko protecting him and removing parts from his team mates car any time they are needed.


Well Marko is not putting the cart before the horse with his comments. Perhaps you forget how old Schumy and Alonso are - how long they have been in the sport. Sebastian has only driven full time in the sport for 5.5 years. I am not sure why you have gone off on a rant comparing Seb with Michael, who just retired after 18 years in F1 and Fernando, who just completed his 11th full season. When he has driven as long as they have, then we can compare.

All Marko is saying is that Sebastian has done a remarkable job in his short 5.5 years with the equipment he has been given - which is all you an ask from a driver. That is why he scoffs at Alonso's comments and considers them trolling.

He will prove plenty. He will prove he does not rely on Newey for his success like so many drivers before him. He will prove he can win without the best car like so few have done before him. That's what separates the greats from the pretenders like Vettel and Hakkinen.


Well when someone wins against Vettel in not the best car, then I will be more open to your argument. At present, no one is doing that. It seems to me, they have the chore of proving they can win without the best car in the present day - and validating your contention. Until then, I would have to say that Dr. Marko has not been proven wrong.

Edited by bourbon, 26 January 2013 - 08:42.


#511 gillesthegenius

gillesthegenius
  • Member

  • 2,534 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 26 January 2013 - 08:10

Vettel trailed Webber until Spa, when the car was not the very best. That's nothing to be praising at all, considering Webbers calibre and consistent clutch and KERS problems. Until he achieves success without the best car, or performs strongly against Alonso or Hamilton in the same car, Vettel cannot be considered top 10 material, because he has simply not proven it. You must do extraordinary things to reach those lofty heights of history. Come back drives in the fastest car are a dime a dozen.



He took up the challenge, and came within a hair of winning 3 world titles in two different teams. An exceptional feat only matched by a few drivers in history, and in the process solidified his status as one of the best ever. Even if he fails to win another title at least he dared to try, unlike Vettel so far who refuses to leave home sweet home.


Unless extraordinary and exceptional feats / things are very different, who do you think those few drivers you talk about are? :D

And how conveniently do you forget about the 25 points that Sebastian lost in Valencia while you talk about Webber being in front till Spa?

#512 Kingshark

Kingshark
  • Member

  • 2,944 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:15

So I agree to disagree and move on. Do you?;)

Yes, in fact, reading some of the few earlier pages, I've come to a conclusion that this thread will continue to run in circles until god-knows-when. I'm struggling to understand on how it even reached 13 pages to begin with. The same crap has been repeated time and time again. :yawnface:

So in short, yes, I move on. :cat:

#513 choyothe

choyothe
  • Member

  • 2,312 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:38

:rotfl:

No, what has made both Alonso and Hamilton so great, is that they have taken each other on as teammates, and proved to be equals.


Ridiculous. So you're saying they would be as great had Alonso joined Mclaren with no titles and had Hamilton not won the following year?

The only thing those two facing each other with the best car, and neither winning the title, proved that both are flawed drivers in their own way.

#514 azda

azda
  • New Member

  • 25 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:41

Ridiculous. So you're saying they would be as great had Alonso joined Mclaren with no titles and had Hamilton not won the following year?


No, he is saying they would not be considered AS great if they had not faced each other in equal cars regardless of their titles. Just and Senna and Prost added to their greatness with their rivalry as team mates.

#515 choyothe

choyothe
  • Member

  • 2,312 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:43

No, he is saying they would not be considered AS great if they had not faced each other in equal cars regardless of their titles. Just and Senna and Prost added to their greatness with their rivalry as team mates.


Actually they would be considered mediocre. The 2 titles of Alonso made 100% of Hamilton's greatness (at the end of 2007) and if anything, 2007 lowered Alonso's greatness.

Edited by choyothe, 26 January 2013 - 09:45.


#516 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 6,872 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:49

No, he is saying they would not be considered AS great if they had not faced each other in equal cars regardless of their titles. Just and Senna and Prost added to their greatness with their rivalry as team mates.


Vettel is missing out on that front definitely. He always had the benefit of the team working for him, the car being developed to suit his style (as has been acknowledged by Horner and Vettel - Valencia and then Singapore having been the important updates to suit Vettel's style) and of course Mark gets taken away his front wing if Seb needs it.

Contrast that with Senna/Prost or Alonso/Hamilton which is the stuff of legends.

You always need a measure against whom to prove yourself. Vettel has not had a real measure so far. Alonso and Hamilton had and whatever Marko says to protect his boy remains irrelevant - even if he is not wrong in most things he states.

Lewis has taken another step by going to Mercedes - if he wins with then that will add to his legend. Like Alonso's Ferrari years did not do anything to diminish him. Vettel yet has to go to a team without Newey and make them winners.


#517 Juggles

Juggles
  • Member

  • 896 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:11

Prost's greatness came from winning world championships and beating every team mate he ever had untill he met Senna. He didnt become great by losing to Senna.

Senna too on the other hand became great by winning world championshps and beating all his team mates untill he met Prost. He didnt suddenly become great by losing to Prost.

Vettel is also beating all his team mates and winning world champioships. He doesnt have to, god forbid, lose to someone to prove that he is great.He just has to, god willing, keep winning to prove that he is great.

The problem with Alonso is that he lost to a rookie and he didnt have the guts to stay on and fight him again. Instead he ran away.


No. But perhaps he has to beat someone. His statistics for his age are unparalleled in F1 history, yet I think there are plenty of people who just aren't really sure how good he is, myself included. He could be the best driver F1 has seen or he could be a good driver with a great team and regulations that suit him down to the ground; it's just so hard to get a read on him. I agree with bourbon (rare) that it's unfair to judge him against drivers like Alonso who have had so much more time to fill out their CV. He will be judged by how he reacts to the different challenges he faces throughout his career, hopefully one of which will be a more competitive teammate (let's be honest, people really want to see him against Hamilton or Alonso). That doesn't mean he needs to go looking for those challenges; if he stays in a top team he will probably face them sooner or later.

I suspect that is why there is such a backlash when people compare Vettel to Senna just because he's already a three time world champion. Assertions like "Vettel is at the same level as Senna" aren't ridiculous; it may well be true. It's just, for the time being, those assertions are unfounded (perhaps they always will be) and made by people too eager to make the comparison.

@Sakae further up the page, you have no idea what has motivated Hamilton to leave McLaren. All you know is he has left a very competitive team for a less competitive one. Obviously as a Vettel fan it's in your best interests to find a less admirable motive than wanting a new challenge.

#518 apoka

apoka
  • Member

  • 3,482 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:15

Vettel trailed Webber until Spa, when the car was not the very best.

He did not trail Webber all the time (even led the WDC after 4 races), but rather a lot of points relative to Webber with the Karthikeyan incident and the alternator failure in Valencia. If you do not finish races and lose 35(+) points, it takes some time to make up for it.

That's nothing to be praising at all, considering Webbers calibre and consistent clutch and KERS problems.

First, Webber had more of those problems in the second half of the season. Second, Webber is no slouch. Third, Vettel beat Webber convincingly overall, so arguing that Webber is a very bad driver and then picking races in which he scored higher than Vettel is not really a sensible argument.

Until he achieves success without the best car, or performs strongly against Alonso or Hamilton in the same car, Vettel cannot be considered top 10 material, because he has simply not proven it.

Neither have Hamilton and Alonso aginst Vettel if that is your benchmark.

You must do extraordinary things to reach those lofty heights of history. Come back drives in the fastest car are a dime a dozen.

You contradict yourself here: You argue that Vettel was trailing Webber in points after mid season and claim he does not reach the level of Hamilton who himself is trailing Button in points after 3 years. If you chose to ignore why Vettel was trailing Webber, you could do the same for Hamilton as well.

That's really the new Vettel thread: A new user registers and spends hours to play down the skills/achievements of Vettel and all discussion is basically cyclic, because sensible arguments do not matter. We had the same pattern once or twice each year in the Vettel thread.


#519 Juggles

Juggles
  • Member

  • 896 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:16

Actually they would be considered mediocre. The 2 titles of Alonso made 100% of Hamilton's greatness(at the end of 2007) and if anything, 2007 lowered Alonso's greatness.


Actually, Alonso's status as the best driver on the grid made 100% of Hamilton's greatness in 2007. There is a difference, though the reason you won't want to admit that won't be lost on anyone.

Advertisement

#520 apoka

apoka
  • Member

  • 3,482 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:37

Vettel is missing out on that front definitely. He always had the benefit of the team working for him, the car being developed to suit his style (as has been acknowledged by Horner and Vettel - Valencia and then Singapore having been the important updates to suit Vettel's style) and of course Mark gets taken away his front wing if Seb needs it.

They also said that the car suited Webber's style better in the first part of the season (e.g. Vettel was going back to an older spec), but Vettel was still faster on average. Of course, they will support Vettel, but first of all they try to make the car as fast as possible.

You always need a measure against whom to prove yourself. Vettel has not had a real measure so far. Alonso and Hamilton had and whatever Marko says to protect his boy remains irrelevant - even if he is not wrong in most things he states.

Lewis has taken another step by going to Mercedes - if he wins with then that will add to his legend. Like Alonso's Ferrari years did not do anything to diminish him. Vettel yet has to go to a team without Newey and make them winners.

Those battles are really nice, but not the only way to measure or achieve greatness. In addition, F1 is getting closer to a spec series with smaller differences between cars.


#521 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,219 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:58

Good to see someone make an account and go straight to a Vettel thread to slaughter him! :wave:
Times are tough

Not sure how Vettel can be questionned about not winning away from a non-Newey car and against some lesser teammates when he's had 1 race out of 101 in a non-Newey car and he doesn't dictate who his teammates are...





#522 choyothe

choyothe
  • Member

  • 2,312 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 26 January 2013 - 13:02

Actually, Alonso's status as the best driver on the grid made 100% of Hamilton's greatness in 2007. There is a difference, though the reason you won't want to admit that won't be lost on anyone.


And what earned Alonso the status of the best (or very close) driver on the grid?

Edited by choyothe, 26 January 2013 - 13:03.


#523 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,219 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 26 January 2013 - 13:14

And what earned Alonso the status of the best (or very close) driver on the grid?

Not sure. Alonso's stock plummeted after 2007 but it is higher than ever now. Myself, I think losing 2 tight championships in 3 years to Vettel has made him the man. It's only really back end of 2010 onwards where more people have seen Alonso as the driver, and lots took until 2011/12 to really appreciate him for competing with drivers in faster cars

#524 choyothe

choyothe
  • Member

  • 2,312 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 26 January 2013 - 14:23

Not sure. Alonso's stock plummeted after 2007 but it is higher than ever now. Myself, I think losing 2 tight championships in 3 years to Vettel has made him the man. It's only really back end of 2010 onwards where more people have seen Alonso as the driver, and lots took until 2011/12 to really appreciate him for competing with drivers in faster cars


Well the discussion was about Alonso's status in 2007, and that it was the 2 titles in a row that made people think he was the best ( or close :cat: ) on the grid.

Had Alonso lost comfortably in 2005 to Kimi and 2006 to Schumi Hamilton definitely wouldn't have been seen at the same light at the end of 2007.

#525 Winter98

Winter98
  • Member

  • 638 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 26 January 2013 - 14:58

No need to look into arguments. Just look at the lap times, they are your friend.


Do you think lap times account for a cars reliability, or its abilities at the start? Or the fact that the better driver is going to get better lap times?

They certainly don't account for a myriad of secondary skills required of the modern F1 driver, such as team building, mental toughness, fitness, etc.

Hope that helps.



#526 Winter98

Winter98
  • Member

  • 638 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 26 January 2013 - 15:02

Not sure how Vettel can be questionned about not winning away from a non-Newey car and against some lesser teammates when he's had 1 race out of 101 in a non-Newey car and he doesn't dictate who his teammates are...


Apparently the trick is to pull an Alonso, and prove for six consecutive years you can't win the championship in anything but the fastest car. Then politic like crazy.

#527 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 6,872 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 26 January 2013 - 15:30

Apparently the trick is to pull an Alonso, and prove for six consecutive years you can't win the championship in anything but the fastest car. Then politic like crazy.


We have heard that one from you before - it adds nothing to the facts. Statistical success and real greatness and profundity as a driver do not always correlate. With Seb the jury is still out if he will be another Schumacher or a driver in the line of Fangio, Senna, Alonso.

#528 Skinnyguy

Skinnyguy
  • Member

  • 4,109 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 26 January 2013 - 15:51

Apparently the trick is to pull an Alonso, and prove for six consecutive years you can't win the championship in anything but the fastest car. Then politic like crazy.


That´s unfair. Alonso has been doing well these 6 seasons. Yes, he didn´t win a title, even if one of these seasons he DID have the best car... but winning a WDC is a very difficult challenge, that depends on a lot of things. All you can do is keep driving well and it might happen, and Alonso has been doing just that, so there´s nothing bad to say about him (let´s better say his driving).

I don´t think he holds that "head and shoulders above", he´s just one of the extremelly tight group of the world class drivers. But there´s no reason to launch these cheap shots at him just because you argue with his more annoying diehard fans (what top driver doesn´t have these?), that´s a pretty stupid thing to do, and sadly a very common one around here.

#529 Winter98

Winter98
  • Member

  • 638 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:01

That´s unfair. Alonso has been doing well these 6 seasons. Yes, he didn´t win a title, even if one of these seasons he DID have the best car... but winning a WDC is a very difficult challenge, that depends on a lot of things. All you can do is keep driving well and it might happen, and Alonso has been doing just that, so there´s nothing bad to say about him (let´s better say his driving).

We have heard that one from you before

I agree with both of you.

But I do think it's a valid argument to use with those who say Vettel needs to move to a slower car to prove his abilities.

Edited by Winter98, 26 January 2013 - 16:09.


#530 Skinnyguy

Skinnyguy
  • Member

  • 4,109 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:09

I agree with both of you.
But I do think it's the best argument to use with those who say Vettel needs to move to a slower car to prove his abilities.


Nah, no ammount of stupidity thrown by others should make you get silly too, mate. ;)

When I argue about car´s potential with someone biased that is trying to downplay/overrate cars performances to match their agenda about drivers, I just keep making sense and calling things what they really are instead of playing the same trick as them to reply.

#531 Winter98

Winter98
  • Member

  • 638 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:10

Nah, no ammount of stupidity thrown by others should make you get silly too, mate.;)

When I argue about car´s potential with someone biased that is trying to downplay/overrate cars performances to match their agenda about drivers, I just keep making sense and calling things what they really are instead of playing the same trick as them to reply.


LOL. Good point. :)

#532 boldhakka

boldhakka
  • Member

  • 2,688 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:16

Nah, no ammount of stupidity thrown by others should make you get silly too, mate.;)

When I argue about car´s potential with someone biased that is trying to downplay/overrate cars performances to match their agenda about drivers, I just keep making sense and calling things what they really are instead of playing the same trick as them to reply.


Boooooring. Let him be, I find him funny and entertaining.

On topic:
The only goal for an F1 driver is to win races, podiums, and championships. Everything else is bolted on by other people who have no business adding expectations on top of those.

Edited by boldhakka, 26 January 2013 - 16:16.


#533 robefc

robefc
  • Member

  • 7,983 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:39

I agree with both of you.

But I do think it's a valid argument to use with those who say Vettel needs to move to a slower car to prove his abilities.


Personally I couldn't give a stuff about vettel driving a slower car, he had his time in a toro rosso and didn't exactly do badly.

What I think would silence any doubters would be if he was head to head with alonso or lewis in the same team. A close second would be for him to have a similar car to them, that's always going to be controversial as one can never really tell how close the cars are but it's a pity mclaren's issues last year robbed us off more Austin type fights, 2010 was close but only because of red bull reliability.

Now the aim of the game is to win WDCs so I see no reason why Vettel should try and bring about a situation where he has a stronger teammate but I do think that is the only way to prove he is as good or better than lewis and alonso.

For my money alonso has proven more than both of them over his career so far.

Boooooring. Let him be, I find him funny and entertaining.

On topic:
The only goal for an F1 driver is to win races, podiums, and championships. Everything else is bolted on by other people who have no business adding expectations on top of those.


Agreed, it's the nature of the sport that we don't often get 'fair' fights between drivers and I actually think that only lewis out of the perceived top 3 would actively seek out the challenge to prove he's the best. I'm not saying that as a compliment or an insult.

Edited by robefc, 26 January 2013 - 16:41.


#534 mnmracer

mnmracer
  • Member

  • 1,972 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:40

We have heard that one from you before - it adds nothing to the facts. Statistical success and real greatness and profundity as a driver do not always correlate. With Seb the jury is still out if he will be another Schumacher or a driver in the line of Fangio, Senna, Alonso.

I'm not sure what your history books you have been reading, but is some very odd categorizing there.

Another Schumacher, I assume means that Schumacher won all he has in the best car with no team-mate of mention and team-orders.
You do know that Fangio has won every single thing he has, in the best car, right? That he has never scored a podium without starting on the front?
And how does Alonso fit in a different category than Schumacher? He faced Hamilton once, and has had no team-mates of mention besides that (+ team-orders).
How did you come up with lining them up?

#535 Juggles

Juggles
  • Member

  • 896 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:42

Well the discussion was about Alonso's status in 2007, and that it was the 2 titles in a row that made people think he was the best ( or close :cat: ) on the grid.

Had Alonso lost comfortably in 2005 to Kimi and 2006 to Schumi Hamilton definitely wouldn't have been seen at the same light at the end of 2007.


I'm not sure about that. If Alonso had narrowly lost to Raikkonen in 2005 and Schumacher in 2006 he still would have been rated as one of the best on the grid. As joshb said it can be as much about being in the championship battle as winning it. Either way, Hamilton's 2007 would have been viewed with amazement. More amazement, I might add, than 2008 when he won the title but was far scrappier.

My general point is that while championships are the ultimate goal for all of these drivers, those championships are only valuable to the extent they build the reputation of the driver. The WDC is supposed to be one way of showing who the best driver of the year was, but when the vast majority of F1 insiders and outsiders put Alonso's performance ahead of Vettel's in 2012 but Vettel won the championship you have to accept the importance of context.

That's why I think if Alonso had been in slightly worse cars in 2005 and 2006 and lost out on both championships it wouldn't have made Hamilton's achievement in 2007 any less impressive. Perhaps less obviously impressive because he wouldn't have beaten the reigning double world champion, but that would just be a lack of understanding on our part.

#536 Skinnyguy

Skinnyguy
  • Member

  • 4,109 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:54

I'm not sure about that. If Alonso had narrowly lost to Raikkonen in 2005 and Schumacher in 2006 he still would have been rated as one of the best on the grid. As joshb said it can be as much about being in the championship battle as winning it. Either way, Hamilton's 2007 would have been viewed with amazement. More amazement, I might add, than 2008 when he won the title but was far scrappier.

My general point is that while championships are the ultimate goal for all of these drivers, those championships are only valuable to the extent they build the reputation of the driver. The WDC is supposed to be one way of showing who the best driver of the year was, but when the vast majority of F1 insiders and outsiders put Alonso's performance ahead of Vettel's in 2012 but Vettel won the championship you have to accept the importance of context.

That's why I think if Alonso had been in slightly worse cars in 2005 and 2006 and lost out on both championships it wouldn't have made Hamilton's achievement in 2007 any less impressive. Perhaps less obviously impressive because he wouldn't have beaten the reigning double world champion, but that would just be a lack of understanding on our part.


:up: :up:

Alonso drove great seasons in both 2005 and 2006. More than enough to be considered a top, with or without the WDCs happening. Beating a top guy (and let´s not forget, sustaining yourself a WDC challenge) straight away doesn´t stop being impressive because that guy has better/worse stats.

In the end it´s not that beating a 2x WDC was an extra for Lewis over beating a world class driver without titles... it´s just that what Hamilton did was impressive by itself, and having a top driver alongside was an extra.

#537 Winter98

Winter98
  • Member

  • 638 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:54

Personally I couldn't give a stuff about vettel driving a slower car, he had his time in a toro rosso and didn't exactly do badly.

What I think would silence any doubters would be if he was head to head with alonso or lewis in the same team.


But that is highly unlikely. Doesn't Alonso demand to be the number 1 driver? So is Vettel supposed to move to Ferrari and accept a position as the number 2 driver, have his gearbox seal broken, be forced to slow down so Alonso can pass him, etc.?

Please name one three time WDC that would have accepted this.

Vettel is the one with the most WDCs. Why shouldn't Hamilton and Alonso try for Webber's seat at RBR to prove themselves?

Edited by Winter98, 26 January 2013 - 17:05.


#538 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 6,872 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 26 January 2013 - 17:33

I'm not sure what your history books you have been reading, but is some very odd categorizing there.

Another Schumacher, I assume means that Schumacher won all he has in the best car with no team-mate of mention and team-orders.
You do know that Fangio has won every single thing he has, in the best car, right? That he has never scored a podium without starting on the front?
And how does Alonso fit in a different category than Schumacher? He faced Hamilton once, and has had no team-mates of mention besides that (+ team-orders).
How did you come up with lining them up?


It is something about the way they race, their passion, their intensity and aura. Surely you might disagree, but even Montoya had something of that special feeling - and of course he has not won much at all.

Michael and Sebastian are more methodical in their approach, less Latin. Very successful, less charismatic.

So take it as a purely subjective perspective of mine.

#539 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 6,031 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 26 January 2013 - 17:48

No. But perhaps he has to beat someone. His statistics for his age are unparalleled in F1 history, yet I think there are plenty of people who just aren't really sure how good he is, myself included. He could be the best driver F1 has seen or he could be a good driver with a great team and regulations that suit him down to the ground; it's just so hard to get a read on him.


I'm trying to figure out why this matters. Do you think it is necessary for all race fans to agree about how good a certain driver is? If you (and the unnamed persons you allegedly speak for) need a few more years to figure things out, I don't see any problem with that. Take your time.

I'm not sure about that. If Alonso had narrowly lost to Raikkonen in 2005 and Schumacher in 2006 he still would have been rated as one of the best on the grid. As joshb said it can be as much about being in the championship battle as winning it. Either way, Hamilton's 2007 would have been viewed with amazement. More amazement, I might add, than 2008 when he won the title but was far scrappier.

That's why I think if Alonso had been in slightly worse cars in 2005 and 2006 and lost out on both championships it wouldn't have made Hamilton's achievement in 2007 any less impressive. Perhaps less obviously impressive because he wouldn't have beaten the reigning double world champion, but that would just be a lack of understanding on our part


Not that it matters, but in light of how it was so easy for you to figure out that Alonso was one of the best on the grid great after 2005 and 2006, without a tough teammate - and even if he had lost you would have still rated him as such "because "it is as much about "being in" the championship battle as winning it" - why is it you are having such a difficult time figuring Seb?

Back on point...I find I similarly question Alonso's comments. I think that is Marko's point.

So yeah, I agree with Marko, these comments are "funny". And not just the comparisons Alonso was making with himself and Hamilton v. Vettel. But also those regarding Newey because there was no answer to his frustrated whining. Newey isn't going to pack up and leave because Alonso's engineers are not as good. The RBR drivers are not going to go on strike until RBR stops attempting to out perform the rest of the teams. Alonso is making nonsensical declarations - "funny comments" - that are entirely pointless, create a bad feeling for his own team, and fail to impact the RBR drivers

Edited by bourbon, 26 January 2013 - 18:50.


Advertisement

#540 robefc

robefc
  • Member

  • 7,983 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 26 January 2013 - 18:00

But that is highly unlikely. Doesn't Alonso demand to be the number 1 driver? So is Vettel supposed to move to Ferrari and accept a position as the number 2 driver, have his gearbox seal broken, be forced to slow down so Alonso can pass him, etc.?

Please name one three time WDC that would have accepted this.

Vettel is the one with the most WDCs. Why shouldn't Hamilton and Alonso try for Webber's seat at RBR to prove themselves?


I'm not sure you've read my post too closely, or perhaps it was worded badly. I thought I was fairly clear in stating I didn't see why Vettel should do anything to bring about a situation where he is in the same team as Fred or Lewis. The issue isn't how the situation would come about but simply that situation is the only way the doubters are likely to be silenced (ahem or proven right of course).

I doubt Vettel gives a stuff about the doubters, as I also pointed out in my post.

As an aside, pretty sure Lewis did try for that seat.

As a further aside, I think you're on shaky ground speaking about alonso's demands at ferrari where vettel is concerned.

#541 robefc

robefc
  • Member

  • 7,983 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 26 January 2013 - 18:03

My general point is that while championships are the ultimate goal for all of these drivers, those championships are only valuable to the extent they build the reputation of the driver. The WDC is supposed to be one way of showing who the best driver of the year was, but when the vast majority of F1 insiders and outsiders put Alonso's performance ahead of Vettel's in 2012 but Vettel won the championship you have to accept the importance of context.


I disagree, Vettel won the WDC, Alonso didn't, I'm 100% sure Alonso would rather have won it and have a load of people he couldn't give a stuff about thinking Vettel drove better than him rather than vice versa.

#542 MarileneRiddle

MarileneRiddle
  • Member

  • 399 posts
  • Joined: December 12

Posted 26 January 2013 - 18:24

I'd be interested to know why you moved from being an Alonso fan to a Vettel one, purely because it's quite an unusual support transfer. I know quite a lot of Raikkonen fans switched to Vettel when the former left the sport in 09 (and now support them both) but until this point I hadn't heard of either an Alonso or a Hamilton fan switching their allegiance to Vettel.

I moved from a Kimi/Alonso fan to a pure Kimi fan especially after the spy debacle to a pure Sebastian fan after 2010. Now that Kimi is back, I naturally still support him (but not as much as Sebastian). However, having once been his fan, I cannot bring myself to ever dislike Alonso. Hamilton is on my dislike list, though.

I'm trying to figure out why this matters. Do you think it is necessary for all race fans to agree about how good a certain driver is? If you (and the unnamed persons you allegedly speak for) need a few more years to figure things out, I don't see any problem with that. Take your time.

I am completely with bourbon on this point. Everyone has their own favourite drivers, why is there a need to have everyone agree that this or that driver is the best? I am perfectly okay with people rating Alonso or Hamilton highly. What I dislike is people putting down Sebastian's achievements. There is no need to say "I think so and so is better" and tag on "because Sebastian is a lousy driver", especially when the latter is just not true.

So yeah, I agree with Marko, these comments are "funny". And not just the comparisons Alonso was making with himself and Hamilton v. Vettel. But also those regarding Newey because there was no answer to his frustrated whining. Newey isn't going to pack up and leave because Alonso's engineers are not as good. The RBR drivers are not going to go on strike until RBR stops attempting to out perform the rest of the teams. Alonso is making nonsensical declarations - "funny comments" - that are entirely pointless, create a bad feeling for his own team, and fail to impact the RBR drivers.

This is one of the main reasons I am no longer an Alonso fan. I started out in 2005 feeling that he, together with Renault really challenged the 'natural order'. But then towards the end of 2006, Alonso started turning on Renault, claiming they no longer fuller supported him, wavering my support for him in turn. Then, after moving to McLaren, he totally betrayed their confidences during the spy scandal. I understand he might have felt cornered by Ron Dennis and his 'pet' Hamilton, but it just made me feel rather bad for the many engineers and mechanics lower down in the pecking order. And this is coming from someone who has never supported McLaren (and probably won't even in the future). Maybe this is because my first sport is football, and teamwork has always meant a lot to me (mia san familie), so I felt extra disappointed whenever Alonso said bad things about Ferrari (who happens to be a team I support). That is also why Sebastian's praise for his team always gains extra points in my book.

It is something about the way they race, their passion, their intensity and aura. Surely you might disagree, but even Montoya had something of that special feeling - and of course he has not won much at all.

Or maybe because these drivers are all a little hot headed? I understand it is solely your opinion, but I have always felt that Sebastian and Hamilton and Massa are more passionate with regards to racing as compared to Webber and Button and Alonso. Sure at their favoured races (i.e. Webber at Monaco or Alonso in Spain) they shine, but otherwise they make F1 feel more like a job. It is Sebastian's ridiculously joyful team radios, or Hamilton's almost agitated body language, or Massa's tears that make me feel like F1 is a sport - that there is passion behind the helmet. That said, I can understand if not everyone sees it.

Why shouldn't Hamilton and Alonso try for Webber's seat at RBR to prove themselves?

I am pretty sure they are trying for the Red Bull number 2 seat. Unsuccessfully.

As for rivalries, it will definitely spice things up and make both drivers more memorable. However, just winning again and again will make a driver equally famous. I don't think Sebastian should go looking for one (and I doubt he will), but as it is a rivalry is already shaping up. After all, if Alonso continues to challenge and Sebastian continues winning, why shouldn't the Alonso-Vettel pair be a rivalry for our generation? If Sebastian solely dominates however, then it will become more like 2001-2004 where we remember Schumacher, with Hakkinen gradually fading into the background.

#543 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 6,031 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 26 January 2013 - 18:24

I disagree, Vettel won the WDC, Alonso didn't, I'm 100% sure Alonso would rather have won it and have a load of people he couldn't give a stuff about thinking Vettel drove better than him rather than vice versa.


Yup.

I'm not sure you've read my post too closely, or perhaps it was worded badly. I thought I was fairly clear in stating I didn't see why Vettel should do anything to bring about a situation where he is in the same team as Fred or Lewis. The issue isn't how the situation would come about but simply that situation is the only way the doubters are likely to be silenced (ahem or proven right of course).


Whether they are proven right or wrong, the "doubters" will never be silenced, imo. They will always find a new "massively important" criteria that Seb has not met. Marko recognizes this - hence his statement about "funny comments"

I doubt Vettel gives a stuff about the doubters, as I also pointed out in my post.


I think he is very pragmatic about it.


#544 Mandzipop

Mandzipop
  • RC Forum Host

  • 4,128 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 26 January 2013 - 18:46

While Dr. Marko is at it, he gave another full-mouthed serving in the new Red Bulletin:

Marko extolling Vettel to the skies and slamming Stewart, Alonso and Webber


I'm quoting the original post to ensure this thread gets back on topic. It is moving into different tangents. Please stay on topic.

#545 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 6,872 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 26 January 2013 - 18:52

I think he is very pragmatic about it.


Seb is very pragmatic and very smart - he does not say much on these issues. He lets Dr. Marko do the "dirty" work.

#546 Winter98

Winter98
  • Member

  • 638 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 26 January 2013 - 19:28

Seb is very pragmatic and very smart - he does not say much on these issues. He lets Dr. Marko do the "dirty" work.


Or he isn't particularly interested in politicking.

I do agree that whatever the case, not getting involved in a war of words with Alonso, a war Vettel would lose handily in my opinion, is being very smart. Far better to leave it to Dr. Marko.



#547 prda

prda
  • Member

  • 35 posts
  • Joined: November 12

Posted 27 January 2013 - 00:53

But that is highly unlikely. Doesn't Alonso demand to be the number 1 driver? So is Vettel supposed to move to Ferrari and accept a position as the number 2 driver, have his gearbox seal broken, be forced to slow down so Alonso can pass him, etc.?

Please name one three time WDC that would have accepted this.



Alonso does not demand anything he earns, it, and at least his team mates are not forced to be number 2 until they are out of wdc contention, unlike Vettel's team mates who get their new front wings taken off and given to Vettel, despite being early in the season and almost even on points. That kind of stuff never happens with Alonso or Ferrari.

Do you think lap times account for a cars reliability, or its abilities at the start? Or the fact that the better driver is going to get better lap times?

They certainly don't account for a myriad of secondary skills required of the modern F1 driver, such as team building, mental toughness, fitness, etc.

Hope that helps.


Yes they do account for all that, and surely you don't suggest vettel and Webber are both significantly faster than Alonso? We have surely not reach that level of absurdity here?

We are talking about the cars, not team building, mental toughness and fitness, all of which Alonso has been universally praised for anyway.

#548 mnmracer

mnmracer
  • Member

  • 1,972 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 27 January 2013 - 01:50

Alonso does not demand anything he earns, it, and at least his team mates are not forced to be number 2 until they are out of wdc contention, unlike Vettel's team mates who get their new front wings taken off and given to Vettel, despite being early in the season and almost even on points. That kind of stuff never happens with Alonso or Ferrari.

Wow, so much lying in one post.

So much lying and acting like Alonso was trumping Trulli when he wasn't.
So much lying and acting like Alonso was trumping Hamilton before demanding nr 1 status at McLaren.
So much over-reacting over 1 thing that happened with Vettel/Webber, the latter who actually never had to give up a race win.
So much lying that the British GP was early in the season.

#549 MarileneRiddle

MarileneRiddle
  • Member

  • 399 posts
  • Joined: December 12

Posted 27 January 2013 - 01:56

Alonso does not demand anything he earns, it, and at least his team mates are not forced to be number 2 until they are out of wdc contention, unlike Vettel's team mates who get their new front wings taken off and given to Vettel, despite being early in the season and almost even on points. That kind of stuff never happens with Alonso or Ferrari.


:rotfl: Really? Really? I have no words.

Yes they do account for all that, and surely you don't suggest vettel and Webber are both significantly faster than Alonso? We have surely not reach that level of absurdity here?

On 1 lap pace, I truly believe they are. You caught me on my break from the absurdist theatre. :rolleyes:

We are talking about the cars, not team building, mental toughness and fitness, all of which Alonso has been universally praised for anyway.

I am sure that the engineers and mechanics at Maranello feel empowered whenever they read about how Alonso criticizes their car. As compared to Sebastian's actions.

Wow, so much lying in one post.

:up:

#550 boldhakka

boldhakka
  • Member

  • 2,688 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 27 January 2013 - 02:06

My general point is that while championships are the ultimate goal for all of these drivers, those championships are only valuable to the extent they build the reputation of the driver. The WDC is supposed to be one way of showing who the best driver of the year was, but when the vast majority of F1 insiders and outsiders put Alonso's performance ahead of Vettel's in 2012 but Vettel won the championship you have to accept the importance of context.


Yikes. Just no. People don't climb K2 to build a reputation. Many WDCs (not all, I agree) would be equally happy with their achievements had they been done in a vacuum without any fans or media. When you were a kid and won a race, did you feel happy only because it raised your reputation, or because you won a race?