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Marko hits out at Vettel Critics [split]


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#101 smoothcrim

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 02:39

For Marko to come out and say those things publicly he must be quite upset with Mark,perhaps because he wasnt as helpful as he could have been in Brazil but also he isnt scoring enough points and making the most of his opportunities.

Webber needs a kick in the pants,2013 is his last chance.He needs to lift to another level,im sure Marko would be delighted if Webber was to make him eat his words.



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#102 Winter98

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:38

Flawless drives do not involve making mistakes, earning several penalties and crashing with backmarkers.


One of the maxims of playing ice hockey: If you never fall down, you're not trying hard enough. In other words, you have to be pushing the boundaries of your abilities to play your best.

Seems applicable to racing as well.

Edited by Winter98, 09 January 2013 - 03:39.


#103 bourbon

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 04:00

Bad form for Marko to publicly put Mark down. Don't get me wrong - it was bad form for Mark to bad mouth Red Bull chiefs, the Red Bull team and Seb also. Between Mark and Marko, they tend to often be on a PR bender over there. Although to be fair, both were somewhat more mellow this last season.

In this round, Marko is right on.

#104 karne

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 04:53

I think it's disgraceful and somewhat inaccurate to say that Webber tailed off due to mechanical issues etc in the middle of last season. It's well documented that RBR made a step change that allowed Vettel to 'do more of what he wanted' with the car. He needs HUGE rear DF to do his thing wheras Webber is from an era that did not have that. That's not a criticism, but it is interesting.


Um, what?

So, a broken driveshaft shouldn't slow you down? Having the KERS crap out on you at every given moment is nothing to worry about? Getting hit with gearbox penalties shouldn't affect your race? Alternator failure is just something you should drive around?

Get real, mate. I don't think Webber had a single weekend after Germany where the car worked properly.

#105 smoothcrim

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 05:12

If Webber isnt having reliability problems he is creating his own through bad starts and mistakes in qualy.

Webber is probably pissed because they went in a development direction that suited Vettel more this year,but why wouldnt they?Vettel delivers time after time.

I feel bad for Webber because i do believe he could grab a WDC if RBR backed him 100% but that isnt gona happen and nor should it.

He is much more of a risk than Vettel.

Edited by smoothcrim, 09 January 2013 - 07:59.


#106 BackOnTop

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 06:48

If Webber isnt having reliability problems he is creating his own through bad starts and mistakes in qualy.

Webber is probably pissed because they went in a development direction that suited Vettel more this year,but why wouldnt they?He delivers time after time.

I feel bad for Webber because i do believe he could grab a WDC if RBR backed him 100% but that isnt gona happen and nor should it.

He is much more of a risk than Vettel.

About Development Direction: what other choice a team has other than "rely" on a double World Champion. In turn, that particular world champion delivers on track to bring home both Wdc & Wcc for the 3rd year and KEEPS REPAYING the team with great rewards.

About Mark Webber: For Him to get a shot at the Championship if Vettel is not in the picture... he needs to overcome Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton & Jenson Button in the standings. Simply not good enough for a team to drive their focus on Mark Webber to deliver them the Championship if he finishes 6th in Adrian Newey cars. If he cannot beat Button who himself had a poor season overall, then RedBull are spot on to identify Vettel as their ace driver.

About Alonso: He challenged Vettel to "lets see who'll become the youngest Triple World Champion" last year during a press conference with Vettel alongside. It's safe to say Vettel has won that challenge by a margin of 6 Years.

Marko is correct about Webber & also about Alonso playing politics, bigging himself up and talking too much for a racing driver. Alonso needs a course in letting his driving do the talking. Twitter & his fanatic fans which include Andrew Benson's stupidity to proclaim Alonso is a better driver at Ferrari than Schumi is cringe worthy.



#107 smoothcrim

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:12

With a great team like RBR and number 1 status Webber might snag a WDC,he almost did in 2010.

But like i said,he is a big risk.He cant even get an F1 car of the line half the time,the war with Vettel is lost.

Vettel gets around faster at most of the tracks on the calendar and is full of confidence and has a bright future,its a no brainer as to who u back when the hard decisions need to be made.

I like to think of Webber as the Monaco and Silverstone WDC,he'd give Ayrton Senna a run for his money at Monaco.






#108 Grundle

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:53

I think Marko is just vettels mouthpiece. he is happy to take the Critism because vettel stays sparkling white. He's effectively vettels spin doctor.

#109 ali_M

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:01

I think Marko is just vettels mouthpiece. he is happy to take the Critism because vettel stays sparkling white. He's effectively vettels spin doctor.


The imaginations are rich here. Though you may well have a basis for thinking this, it is pure conjecture and definitely uncalled for.

#110 Grundle

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:14

The imaginations are rich here. Though you may well have a basis for thinking this, it is pure conjecture and definitely uncalled for.

If it was untrue, the derogatory comments would have stopped by now. Marko says what vettel thinks. Don't forget he is vettels advisor, and speaks on his behalf many times.

#111 aditya-now

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:28

The imaginations are rich here. Though you may well have a basis for thinking this, it is pure conjecture and definitely uncalled for.


Quite obviously Marko is Vettel's spin doctor - there is nothing to imagine. For certain people, calling a spade a spade is always uncalled for. It changes nothing about the fact.


#112 goldenboy

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:36

If it was untrue, the derogatory comments would have stopped by now. Marko says what vettel thinks. Don't forget he is vettels advisor, and speaks on his behalf many times.

Unlikely Vettel has anything behind it.

#113 SunnyENTP

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:39

Hulkenberg should avoid Red Bull if Vettel decides to stick around. Hitting out at Mark who did his best to aid Vettel is a bad sign.



Aid Vettel? From what I saw in Brazil he did everything to help Alonso and impede Vettel. His team had to call him in to move over. Look how Massa helped Alonso fending off 3 cars when Alonso was struggling.

Webber has had his chances notably 2010 but he messed up. The only reason he has not been fired is because they know Vettel has the measure of him and he is good enough to help with the WCC. The year RB lose the WCC or Vettel is the year the sack Webber.

#114 Skinnyguy

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:44

Unlikely Vettel has anything behind it.


Yep, it´s nonsense, the guy doesn´t exactly stand out as someone that needs to air what he´s thinking (unlike Alonso and Hamilton). He doesn´t do by himself too often (he needed 3 years of being played down to respond to the rivals), and he certainly won´t use anyone as a speaker.

#115 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:45

I frankly think Webber should resign his drive. Ask to be let out of his 2013 contract. I know that if one of my bosses had so little faith in me to do the job asked of me, i'd want to be working elsewhere (or at least not working for them).

I think as much as anything, Webber should do it for his pride. I dont think i'd ever want to speak to Marko again if I was in his position. Is it worth it? Does he really need more money?

At the end of the day, Marko is speaking the truth. But did he need to say it? Is he that insensitive?

Edited by NotSoSilentBob, 09 January 2013 - 11:45.


#116 Supersleeper

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:59

Unlikely Vettel has anything behind it.

Then you should research why the nickname "princess petal" was given to him. Not by accident.

You remember the photo of young Seb with the Pirelli rep?

People forget the origins of things far too readily....

#117 Skinnyguy

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:59

I frankly think Webber should resign his drive. Ask to be let out of his 2013 contract. I know that if one of my bosses had so little faith in me to do the job asked of me, i'd want to be working elsewhere (or at least not working for them).

I think as much as anything, Webber should do it for his pride. I dont think i'd ever want to speak to Marko again if I was in his position. Is it worth it? Does he really need more money?

At the end of the day, Marko is speaking the truth. But did he need to say it? Is he that insensitive?


That´d be really weak. You have in front of you your last chance of becoming a F1 WDC or win a handful or races, and you would let it go because a guy you work for made a objective analysis of your performance. :drunk:

Be a man, stay, prove him wrong if you can, and use the chance to become a champion.

#118 wj_gibson

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:07

All of the above said, is Marko actually "one of Webber's bosses"?

Is Marko in any way involved with Webber's career? As the head of the driver development programme, I'm not sure he has anything to do with Webber whatsoever. Rather, Webber's presence is a bit of a hangover from the early days of Red Bull Racing, when they felt that they needed experienced drivers to help push the team forward (a decision that was, IIRC, Horner's).

#119 Supersleeper

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:10

As for Mark resigning his drive because of Markos comments. Marko has failed for years to produce anything on his own. All of his program's have been a failure. Say Seb? Find who found him - not Marko. Had Montoya - threw him out. Not a man having any achievements in is own right.

A multiple Grand Prix winner running for cover over the comments of a man who's only ever used other people's money and connections to achieve? No. He's made if far sterner stuff than that.

As for Red Bull. We have a saying in Australia - "don't sh*t in your own nest" - they've done that to themselves this week. The only losers in all of this have been the hundreds who work their arses off doing incredible hours away from their family and friends only to see a self important consultant drown them in a sea of pettiness, arrogance and pointlessness.

To those in the factory, in the show team and those on the paddock - true supporters salute you. As for "management", well, your an embarrassment to all of those who were truly responsible for wining both titles. What an embarrassment to the sport for a self important individual to wear the logo and forget that effort, not bile bonds a team.

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#120 Skinnyguy

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:19

To those in the factory, in the show team and those on the paddock - true supporters salute you. As for "management", well, your an embarrassment to all of those who were truly responsible for wining both titles. What an embarrassment to the sport for a self important individual to wear the logo and forget that effort, not bile bonds a team.


:lol: :lol:

Jesus, you really got butthurt about the comment. It´s not a big deal buddy.

#121 H2H

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:21

Then you should research why the nickname "princess petal" was given to him. Not by accident.

You remember the photo of young Seb with the Pirelli rep?

People forget the origins of things far too readily....


Indeed like the history of posters claiming that Mark would switch seats in 2010, 2011 and so forth, based on special sources. :rotfl:

So far the sceptics have been proved right, right and right again. It is all quite simple. Mark is in one of the best teams. Mark has been winning in that team and came close to winning a WDC. Mark hasn't been told to pull over without being out of the WDC race. Mark has been able to drive despite having done the team no good by certain public words and behaviours. Why? Because he has done on average a pretty good job at driving and working for the team and the team thinks there is no better alternative for now. Markos relative objective public description of Marks strenghts and weaknesses won't change much in this regard. He and big boss have been pragmatic enough to come to same conclusion year after year: it makes sense for both sides to lenghten the contract.

Edited by H2H, 09 January 2013 - 12:30.


#122 seahawk

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:36

I think one big part changed in the relationshiop between Webber and RBR. It is no longer certain that Vettel will stay with RBR and there are young drivers on the market who promise to be better than Mark. And Marko now clearly hinted that RBR is willing to look outside their own driver program, when it comes to filling the seat at RBR.
I dare say, that if a TR guy would have driven like Hülkenberg or Perez in 2012, Mark might be without a job now.

#123 boldhakka

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 13:04

As for Mark resigning his drive because of Markos comments. Marko has failed for years to produce anything on his own. All of his program's have been a failure. Say Seb? Find who found him - not Marko. Had Montoya - threw him out. Not a man having any achievements in is own right.

A multiple Grand Prix winner running for cover over the comments of a man who's only ever used other people's money and connections to achieve? No. He's made if far sterner stuff than that.

As for Red Bull. We have a saying in Australia - "don't sh*t in your own nest" - they've done that to themselves this week. The only losers in all of this have been the hundreds who work their arses off doing incredible hours away from their family and friends only to see a self important consultant drown them in a sea of pettiness, arrogance and pointlessness.

To those in the factory, in the show team and those on the paddock - true supporters salute you. As for "management", well, your an embarrassment to all of those who were truly responsible for wining both titles. What an embarrassment to the sport for a self important individual to wear the logo and forget that effort, not bile bonds a team.


Ahhh, you know a thread is going to be good when this guys condescends to participate in it.

I do agree with your comments. Why should Mark, who works directly with Adrian, Horner, the engineers and the team owner, give two hoots about some talent manager? The reason Marko says this to the press is because Webber won't listen to him (and why should he) when he says it directly.

Any juicy Mark-to-Ferrari rumors you can toss us?

#124 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 13:14

Actually your post is rubbish...Whatever one may say of Vettel, positive or negative, it is pretty much beyond question that nearly all those race wins have come in Adrian Newey machinery that are very much part of a unified line of cars (evolutionary designs within a relatively stable rules period.)

Stewart won races in BRMs, Marchs, Tyrrell in an very turblent era as far as design/aero development year to year...
Clark won races in all manner vehicles, and Chapman's designs often took radical design turns from previous models (comparing the Lotus 25 to the Lotus43, is quite a bit different than say,comparing the RB6 to the RB8)
Senna made waves in the Toleman, and had dominant poles and race wins with Lotus, and McLaren victories with customer Ford engines...


Are you for real?

Vettel's already accomplished more than anyone else who came before him at the age of 25 and after 5 years of Grand Prix racing.

What more do you expect of him. Also, he's up against a very tough crop of drivers in a much more controlled formula where 1 or 2 tenths in final qualifying means going from the 3rd row on the grid to, possibly, the 6th row!

His career isn't finished yet.

Already he's proven faster than Alonso and his speed has made Alonso cave in under extreeme stress in 2 title run-ins.

At the average age of 24, Vettel has crushed Alonso and Webber when it came to wrestling away 2 titles in tight struggles.

As per Hamilton?

Hamilton's got his mind bashed in by Vettel.

It was supposed to be Hamilton's era...but 2011 showed that Hamilton's mind management was piss poor. He gave up way too many points. McLaren said that Vettel had it too easy in 2011 and one big reason was Hamilton's mind being up his backside or up a pussycat doll!

McLaren had a very good package in 2011 and Hamilton wasn't on it at all.

This year it was reversed. Hamilton was mega but McLaren were useless at China, Spain, Singapore, Abu Dhabi for him.

PS

I saw Senna's entire career. He was a great. But we aren't comparing Senna to Vettel here.

But what I did say is that Senna won all his titles with the same Honda turbo engine and when McLaren had a huge advantage over Williams and Ferrari and everyone else,especially 1988 and 1990.

Senna also used to juice up the Renault and Honda engines in his Lotus to maximum boost in qualifying because he felt that starting from pole would give him some advantage and offset the Lotus' over-all weakness in the races vis-a-vis Williamses and McLarens.

Yes he was blisteringly quick...but his titles were won in relatively dominant McLaren-Hondas only.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 09 January 2013 - 13:31.


#125 Buttoneer

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 13:25

Can we get back to Marko's comments please?

#126 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 13:33

Can we get back to Marko's comments please?


I agree with everything Marko said.

:up:

He can be a bit of a dickhead from time to time...but his comments are 100% bang on.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 09 January 2013 - 13:34.


#127 Nemo1965

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 13:37

Can we get back to Marko's comments please?


Yes. While I find Marko's wording of his opinion not very classy (he sounds like a surly child, perhaps it's a language barrier thing, him being German speaking and all?), I have to say I agree with him. This year, I was a little bit afraid that Vettel and RBR would just stomp the opposition in the end, winning races from the front, poles, 1-2 finishes etcetera... But Vettel has proven with the way he ended 2012 he is just as good as Alonso. His race from the back in Dubai, his race from the back in Brazil... great stuff. And I concurr with Marko on the 'he is just in the best car' comments. If that is so, why is Webber not 2nd in every race? He can't be that bad, can he?

The idea of F1 I have at the moment is that the differences are very, very small between drivers and cars, that in 2012 weather, temperatures of the track, varying characteristics of the tires, asked a lot diversity and flexibility of drivers. Alonso and Vettel handed it the best, next to Hamilton (but he is another story). Button, Webber, Massa (and one could argue even Raikkonen) had roughly the same chances as Vettel, but didn't take them.



#128 Winter98

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 13:51

Unlikely Vettel has anything behind it.


Agreed.

Vettel did his talking on the track. His performances said it all.

Edited by Winter98, 09 January 2013 - 13:52.


#129 mnmracer

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 15:03

I've done some calculations to check the merrit of Marko's claim, though one that most of us have opted at some point: Webber can be the fastest driver on the day, but he is very much geared towards his favorite tracks.

Since Mark Webber joined Red Bull in 2008, he has raced 93 Grand Prix' on 24 different tracks (21 tracks more than once).
He has scored 904 points ('08-'09 points system adjusted).
As this comparison does not benefit from the semi-exponential points system, for the purpose of comparison I have calculated using a '1=10pt,2=9pt...10=1pt' system. In this system, Mark Webber would have scored 475 points.

He has scored 95 of those 475 points, or 20%, on just his 3 favorite tracks: Monaco, Silverstone and Sao Paolo.
He has scored 224 of those 475 points, or 47%, on just his 6 favorite tracks: Monaco, Silverstone, Sao Paolo, Barcelona, Istanbul Park and Hungaroring.

So, in an average 24 race season, he would need almost 18 races to score as many points as in his 6 best races.
This is not too unsimilair to 2012, where he scored 44 (adjusted) points in his best 5 races (46%, 9- points per race), and 52 points in the other 13 races he finished (4 points per finished race).

To compare:
In 2012, Sebastian Vettel scored 50 (adjusted) points in his best 5 races (38%, 10 points per race), and 81 points in the other 13 races he finished (6.2 points per finished race, 1.55x Mark).
In 2012, Fernando Alonso scored 47 (adjusted) points in his best 5 races (36%, 9+ points per race), and 83 points in the other 13 races he finished (6.4 points per finished race, 1.6x Mark).

#130 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 15:11

Vettel did his talking on the track. His performances said it all.


:up:

Edited by Buttoneer, 09 January 2013 - 15:12.
Please stop trolling.


#131 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 15:12

^ good stat hunting.

As we all know, Mark needs to lift his game (in a big way) at his non-preferred tracks. He could start in Australia, please.

#132 boldhakka

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 15:12

Very interesting. Scoring half of his points from just 6 tracks is very illuminating. Thanks for doing the numbers.

#133 PassWind

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 15:15

Marko comes across as a complete idiot.

And I concur with Stewart in that Vettel needs to prove his worth in a non-Newey car before he is considered a great - or even at the same ultimate performance level of Alonso and Hamilton.


What Utter Rubbish, and to talk about ultimate performance, Christ on a bike neither Alonso or Hamilton have won a WDC in another team, Senna didn't either, MS did but a bunch of rabids always want to devalue his even though he managed 7 between 2 teams.

In all myopic and illogical opinion from a specific demographic repeated mantra style for 15 years is well cultivating the "Tall Poppy Syndrome" communication style.


#134 mnmracer

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 15:32

And I concur with Stewart in that Vettel needs to prove his worth in a non-Newey car before he is considered a great - or even at the same ultimate performance level of Alonso and Hamilton.

So if Vettel had won the 2009 championship with Brawn, and then took a tripple at Red bull, he would have more proven his worth?

Besides, if what you say is true, then why have only 8 of BBC's top 20 won championships in multiple teams? And why are 4 of those in the last 5 spots?
#19 Graham Hill (1x BRM, 1x Lotus)
#18 Jack Brabham (1x Cooper, 2x Brabham)
#17 Emmerson Fittipaldi (2x Lotus, 1x McLaren)
#16 Nelson Piquet (2x Brabham, 1x Williams)
#9 Niki Lauda (2x Ferrari, 1x McLaren)
#5 Alain Prost (3x McLaren, 1x Williams)
#4 Michael Schumacher (2x Benetton, 5x Ferrari)
#2 Juan Manuel Fangio (1x Alfa Romeo, 2x Mercedes, 1x Ferrari, 1x Masserati)

#135 Rinehart

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 15:58

So if Vettel had won the 2009 championship with Brawn, and then took a tripple at Red bull, he would have more proven his worth?


Err, but the point is he lost that title to Button in the Brawn! He also won an incredibly easy title in 2011. And in 2012 he won another, but the majority of TP's still think that Alonso was the better driver and voted him so. He still has an average reputation in the wet and in pack racing and has had the luxury of Newey cars throughout.

In other words its not the statistics that builds a legacy, its HOW you accrute them.

This is why Senna is regularly at the top of the standings. Everyone who knows anything about motor-racing had to be impressed about many of his drivers under the circumstances.

That all said, Marko is right, Vettel has clearly shown Mark a pair of exhausts at RBR. But I still think there is no motivational value in telling the world that one of your star drivers hasn't got the x factor. Its wasn't a motivational "prove me wrong, Mark" it was a "Seb has my support, Mark, doesn't".

I'm hoping Mark responds, would be entertaining.

#136 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 16:00

Marko:

"There is a lot of nonsense being said," he said. "'Vettel can't overtake.' Ridiculous; just look at Abu Dhabi and Brazil. 'He is only able to win because he's sitting in a Newey car.' We have two Newey cars, so why aren't we clinching one-two at every race?

:up:

What I've been saying last two years.


I don't see anything wrong with any of what Marko said. In fact, I find its honesty very refreshing. Wish there was more of it in F1. Additionally, I essentially agree with everything he wrote. As far as the people feeling pity for Webber, I simply think that is the relationship Webber has with his team -- when he feels he is being treated as a second driver, he doesn't hide it from the press -- when the team feels he isn't their top driver, they don't hide it from the press. Surely Webber doesn't desire being babied just as he doesn't baby his team, and at least everyone's being honest.


Good post. Webber isn't an idiot and has had the better of Vettel on a fair few occasions but Vettel is way more consistently at his own limit. Deserves all his success.

#137 mnmracer

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 16:12

Err, but the point is he lost that title to Button in the Brawn! He also won an incredibly easy title in 2011. And in 2012 he won another, but the majority of TP's still think that Alonso was the better driver and voted him so. He still has an average reputation in the wet and in pack racing and has had the luxury of Newey cars throughout.

You are missing the point.
To David, 'winning in multiple teams' in itself is apparently oh so important.
I coined, that if Vettel had won in the dominant Brawn and then went on to win in the dominant ('11) Red Bull, David would be satisfied, but it would actually tell us less then his 3peat at Red Bull, as both would have been in dominant cars.

In other words its not the statistics that builds a legacy, its HOW you accrute them.

This is why Senna is regularly at the top of the standings. Everyone who knows anything about motor-racing had to be impressed about many of his drivers under the circumstances.

That all said, Marko is right, Vettel has clearly shown Mark a pair of exhausts at RBR. But I still think there is no motivational value in telling the world that one of your star drivers hasn't got the x factor. Its wasn't a motivational "prove me wrong, Mark" it was a "Seb has my support, Mark, doesn't".

I'm hoping Mark responds, would be entertaining.

Not perse.
A lot of things are double standards, with people expecting Vettel to do things "like Senna" that Senna never actually did.
Look at Jim Clark for instance; no one complains that he won everything in a Chapman car, in a time where a good car was worth a whole lot more (good car gave you seconds advantage back then vs. tenths now).

#138 H2H

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 16:14

I've done some calculations to check the merrit of Marko's claim, though one that most of us have opted at some point: Webber can be the fastest driver on the day, but he is very much geared towards his favorite tracks.

Since Mark Webber joined Red Bull in 2008, he has raced 93 Grand Prix' on 24 different tracks (21 tracks more than once).
He has scored 904 points ('08-'09 points system adjusted).
As this comparison does not benefit from the semi-exponential points system, for the purpose of comparison I have calculated using a '1=10pt,2=9pt...10=1pt' system. In this system, Mark Webber would have scored 475 points.

He has scored 95 of those 475 points, or 20%, on just his 3 favorite tracks: Monaco, Silverstone and Sao Paolo.
He has scored 224 of those 475 points, or 47%, on just his 6 favorite tracks: Monaco, Silverstone, Sao Paolo, Barcelona, Istanbul Park and Hungaroring.

So, in an average 24 race season, he would need almost 18 races to score as many points as in his 6 best races.
This is not too unsimilair to 2012, where he scored 44 (adjusted) points in his best 5 races (46%, 9- points per race), and 52 points in the other 13 races he finished (4 points per finished race).

To compare:
In 2012, Sebastian Vettel scored 50 (adjusted) points in his best 5 races (38%, 10 points per race), and 81 points in the other 13 races he finished (6.2 points per finished race, 1.55x Mark).
In 2012, Fernando Alonso scored 47 (adjusted) points in his best 5 races (36%, 9+ points per race), and 83 points in the other 13 races he finished (6.4 points per finished race, 1.6x Mark).


Top post. Didn't think about putting it that way. Considering the adjustments it fits pretty much a perception of many in the Mark Webber thread and supports frank Dr. Marko. Could you dig also back to 2008 for Vettel and Alonso to get a larger sample for both? :up:


Edited by H2H, 09 January 2013 - 16:17.


#139 Winter98

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 16:18

What Utter Rubbish, and to talk about ultimate performance, Christ on a bike neither Alonso or Hamilton have won a WDC in another team, Senna didn't either, MS did but a bunch of rabids always want to devalue his even though he managed 7 between 2 teams.


Agreed.

Apparently Vettel has to pull an Alonso and prove for six consecutive years he can't win in anything but the fastest car. It makes no sense.

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#140 schubacca

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 16:34

Very Eddie Irvinesque....

Let us conveniently forget that RB has the largest budget, the best car designer, and an elite driver, and heap praise after praise to only the driver.

Let us also forget that FA simply outdrove SV in 2012, and focus on his comments.


#141 goldenboy

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 16:36

I don't think there's many, if any that deny what Marko says has merit. The point was how much he seems to enjoy stating it publicly whenever he has a chance. Along with things that are sometimes without merit.

#142 mnmracer

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 16:36

Top post. Didn't think about putting it that way. Considering the adjustments it fits pretty much a perception of many in the Mark Webber thread and supports frank Dr. Marko. Could you dig also back to 2008 for Vettel and Alonso to get a larger sample for both? :up:

Yeah, I still want to work those out, and Lewis as well.
I still have some things to figure out though, as difference in car performance can skew results. It's doable, but I'll have to set some perimeters within which a fair comparison can be made.
That's also the reason I didn't include Lewis this season, as his misfortune skews the results immensely.
So I'm gonna try and figure that out before putting more drivers to it.

#143 mnmracer

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 16:38

...and heap praise after praise to only the driver.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
That must be why on forums you can't go two weeks without someone opening a thread to explain why Vettel's not all that.
That must be why Alonso and Hamilton campaign together to tell us how good Newey is (and Vettel not so much).

#144 schubacca

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 16:44

"There is a lot of nonsense being said," he said. "'Vettel can't overtake.' Ridiculous; just look at Abu Dhabi and Brazil. 'He is only able to win because he's sitting in a Newey car.' We have two Newey cars, so why aren't we clinching one-two at every race?

1) Vettel spun out and it was only in having a Newey car did he catch the rest of the field.

2) Marko answers his own 1-2 finish question in his assessment of MW.


"Then the comment of the great Jackie Stewart that Vettel must go to another team to prove himself. This is said by someone who scored all his greatest successes in just one team, Tyrrell."

1) SV won all his WDCs in supercars. Nothing wrong with that. The fact that he has not won a race starting lower than 3 cannot be glossed over.

"I can't take it seriously. We at Red Bull Racing are not just a bunch of civil servants. As long as we provide Sebastian with a car and an environment in which he can become World Champion, he will probably stay with us.

"If both do not fit, then we have to come up with something fresh. But we have a very good junior programme, and maybe some day someone else will become champion in our car."

Fair points. But RB also have the largest budget in F1, which sort of undercuts all of the praise that you heap on SV vis-à-vis FA.

Alonso is constantly involved in politics. I believe we saw the stress he was under towards the end of the season. Saying things like, 'I'm competing against Hamilton, not Vettel,' and 'I'm up against Newey,' these psychological skirmishes. We said, 'Just ignore him.'"

If FA supposedly split concentration is enough to almost defeat the superior talent or SV and Newey and financial might of RB combined..... Then, I would be massively afraid of a fully focused (supposedly) FA!

All that crap spewed on MW, answers why RB do not finish 1-2 every race ;)




#145 mnmracer

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 16:50

1) SV won all his WDCs in supercars. Nothing wrong with that. The fact that he has not won a race starting lower than 3 cannot be glossed over.

Then surely you have not glossed over, and discreditted accordingly, the 'win from starting positions' for -apparently overcreditted- drivers like Fangio, Senna and Hamilton.

#146 H2H

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 17:51

Yeah, I still want to work those out, and Lewis as well.
I still have some things to figure out though, as difference in car performance can skew results. It's doable, but I'll have to set some perimeters within which a fair comparison can be made.
That's also the reason I didn't include Lewis this season, as his misfortune skews the results immensely.
So I'm gonna try and figure that out before putting more drivers to it.


I think points collected is a good start and has the big advantage to be the 'official' gauge of performance. The impact of the car will always be there, however a bit less so if you use your linear point system I guess you finish your work with your approach and see what comes. Looking at the results of teammates should also help to get a sense of the impact of track-car relationship. Five seasons should do nicely at greatly reducing the impact of misfortunes like seen with Vettel in 2010 and Hamilton in 2012.

#147 Rinehart

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 17:52

You are missing the point.
To David, 'winning in multiple teams' in itself is apparently oh so important.
I coined, that if Vettel had won in the dominant Brawn and then went on to win in the dominant ('11) Red Bull, David would be satisfied, but it would actually tell us less then his 3peat at Red Bull, as both would have been in dominant cars.


Not perse.
A lot of things are double standards, with people expecting Vettel to do things "like Senna" that Senna never actually did.
Look at Jim Clark for instance; no one complains that he won everything in a Chapman car, in a time where a good car was worth a whole lot more (good car gave you seconds advantage back then vs. tenths now).


I think your missing my point. I agree with you totally that how many different teams cars you win in is utterly irrelevant as is whose cars. Its how you win that is important. For legacy value, winning a tough title is worth more than an easy one in my book and apparently most other people seem to be thinking that as well.

On that basis it seems to me, really simply that Vettel has a pretty impressive title (2010), pretty impressive title (2012) and a not particularly special title (2011). Its not that he needs to join another team. He basically needs another team to build a better car than him which he can go out and beat and thus have a very frikkin impressive title on his CV. That is what is missing imo. Other people are saying he needs to go to another team to win this "frikkin impressive title". But I agree with you. If the car was a rocket, so what.

#148 fer312t

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 19:20

Look at Jim Clark for instance; no one complains that he won everything in a Chapman car, in a time where a good car was worth a whole lot more (good car gave you seconds advantage back then vs. tenths now).



No one 'complains' about Clark because it was quite apparent that he was dominantly quick in whatever car he stepped in - whether it be a Grand Prix car, Sports car, Indycar, Touring car etc - regardless of the designer. Colin Chapman was much more the conceptual engineer anyways. Also Clark never enjoyed 'seconds advantage' in Grand Prix machinery, except maybe with the 49 - which was of course as fragile as it was fast.

#149 schubacca

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 19:22

Then surely you have not glossed over, and discreditted accordingly, the 'win from starting positions' for -apparently overcreditted- drivers like Fangio, Senna and Hamilton.


Who is talking about the great Fangio or Senna?

I rate SV highly. He is an elite driver. But Marko's lame attempt at discrediting the comments of Stewart at utterly pathetic. I think that JS is right. SV needs to win races in a car other than a supercar in normal conditions.

FA has done it, as have all the greats. I am not so sure about SV though.

#150 joshb

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 19:28

Who else has the so-called freakin' impressive titles to their name though? Of the current crop, they are either easy titles or merely impressive titles.

And if Vettel supposedly has all these flaws yet has won 3 titles, how much will he win when he becomes half decent?