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Marko hits out at Vettel Critics [split]


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#201 schubacca

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 14:18

So, do you think these F1 teams are wasting millions on acquiring and interpreting telemetry when they could ask someone in the stands to use the old eyeball test and tell them what is really happening on the track?



I think it would be fair to say it was one of the fastest along with Ferrari and McLaren. Without the actual team data, and a few experts in various fields to help evaluate all the factors that would go into deciding which car is "best", it would be impossible to say with any certainty.

Down the stretch Massa found speed in the Ferrari. Just because Alonso couldn't match him and let yet another WDC slip away is not sufficient reason to say the Ferrari was slow.



Are you sure you understand what is meant by "revising history", because that's what it appears you are trying to do here.



... or Alonso zealots trying to explain away their hero's loss by claiming the 2012 RBR was a super car.



In the OP's linked article we are discussing here Marko doesn't mention the Battle of Thermopylae, massive adversity, or anything remotely connected to it. Again, it appears you are the one trying to rewrite history.

I think it would be fair to suggest Marko feels SV faced the same adversity as the other three time WDC winners.


-We don't have access to telemetry, but this forum does exist for our opinions. No one is saying it is useless.... Only none of us have access to it.

-We reason is clear why FA did not win..... The car..... Again, this idea that the Ferrari was as good as the RB is fiction, created by those wanting so desperately to believe that SV triumphed against adversity.

-Marko's comments against FA are unreasonable because, guess what, HE does not have Ferrari telemetry.....;)

-My reference to battles and adversity is my assessment of the text. I do not want to belittle anyone here, but finding the meaning of text requires one to make inferences.

When Marko talks about FA's supposed lack of focus of driving, we can ask what are the motivations.

When Marko downplays the significance of Newey and the car, we can ask what are the motivations.

When Marko attacks a driver that achieved more that he will ever achieve (JS), we can ask what are his motivations.

These chap wants to make RB's achievements greater than what they already are. This is achieved by

A) Hyping the competition's car, while understating his team's machinery

B) Hyping his driver, driving criticizing the performance of the opposing team's driver.




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#202 Winter98

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 14:57

These chap wants to make RB's achievements greater than what they already are. This is achieved by

A) Hyping the competition's car, while understating his team's machinery

B) Hyping his driver, driving criticizing the performance of the opposing team's driver.


Are you sure you know which is Alonso, and which is Marko? Considering the above is exactly what Alonso did with his "I'm racing Newey" comments, you appear to be confused about this.

Edited by Winter98, 10 January 2013 - 15:01.


#203 Winter98

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 15:04

No because Alonso and Ferrari are in a different situation, already well motivated desperate to claim back the title, it will be the Red Bull camp on the back of 3 titles that will benefit the most from a boost in motivation coming from a spiced up rivalry. On the contrary more pressure on Ferrari's side would rather make them more nervous, than fix any kind of complacency. Notice that Alonso felt the need to reply to this...


If you're right, its a smart move by Marko. Alonso didn't perform well under pressure last season, so if Marko can add more pressure...

#204 schubacca

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 15:10

Are you sure you know which is Alonso, and which is Marko? Considering the above is exactly what Alonso did with his "I'm racing Newey" comments, you appear to be confused about this.


I am not a fan of FA's method of exhorting his team to greatness.... I am more of a fan of a Schumacher-style motivational technique.

However, Marko is clear in what he says when is questions why the Newey car is not finishing 1-2 every race. Interestingly enough he answers his own question when he roasts MW, something that is totally unprofessional.

Again, there is no confusion. Let's just focus on Markos words.









#205 ayali

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 15:14

James Allen suggests these comments are a way to put pressure on Mark, and the team itself, which will be tired and perhaps slightly too comfortable/complacent on the back of 3 world titles. There's obviously a long standing anti-Webber vibe from Marko so it can be viewed that way too, but this interpretation makes some sense to me, once you've won everything for a couple of years, you need to invent new ways of making people keep wanting to prove themselves. Pretty clever actually.

Sounds like a solid analysis, pretty smart by old Helmut :up:

Probably it's stuff like that why Niki Lauda praised him the other day and called him a "role-model" in F1

#206 H2H

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 19:00

Indeed (when removing your sarcasm).
Of the 29 world champions since the introduction of the WCC, 20 have won all their WDCs along with the WCC, including Senna and Clark.
Of the 54 world championships since the introduction of the WCC, 44 have been won along with the WCC, including 9 of Prost and Schumacher's combined 11.


I enjoy your stats a lot. It is always so amusing when somebody makes a statement without thinking a bit and just gets slammed by the evidence. It is just so simple in this case. If A+B = C then the bigger A the bigger C. The better a driver (think A) is doing as part of the package the more likely he will help his team to win the WCC...

In RBRs case A has done a supreme job over the last 3 years and B a good one with some great highlights. As part of the package they have achieved the WCC goal of their team.

#207 schubacca

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 19:24

Sounds like a solid analysis, pretty smart by old Helmut :up:

Probably it's stuff like that why Niki Lauda praised him the other day and called him a "role-model" in F1


How disrespecting an employee is viewed as excellent motivational technique is lost to me.

This is spoken as a person who has hired and fired, and a person who is an employee....





#208 Winter98

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 20:03

Again, there is no confusion.


That's good.

#209 Winter98

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 20:05

I am not a fan of FA's method of exhorting his team to greatness.... I am more of a fan of a Schumacher-style motivational technique.


Agreed.


#210 Ian G

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 22:04

How disrespecting an employee is viewed as excellent motivational technique is lost to me.

This is spoken as a person who has hired and fired, and a person who is an employee....



Exactly,kids at school may not no this but for anyone thats spent some time in the workforce or been involved in pro.Team sport Marko's published comments are very puzzling,almost bizarre.
As far as the Alonso/Ferrari comments go there has been a major falling out between the 2 Teams,although most Journo's are treading carefully until the facts become clear it involves more than STR switching to the Renault Turbo.

Edited by Ian G, 10 January 2013 - 22:04.


#211 ayali

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 22:47

How disrespecting an employee is viewed as excellent motivational technique is lost to me.

I and many with me saw no disrespect whatsoever but just Helmut telling how it is.
Mark seems to do so at times too and the same folk who now see disrespect compliment and applaud him for that.

Mark's respect comes in a 6 figure paycheck every month and for that he has to deal with criticism of the Red Bull team.
He seems to manage quite well with that unlike some of his (over) sensitive fans

This is spoken as a person who has hired and fired, and a person who is an employee....

Don't care for your personal history dude and it surely doesn't give your post any more credence

#212 schubacca

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 00:56

I and many with me saw no disrespect whatsoever but just Helmut telling how it is.
Mark seems to do so at times too and the same folk who now see disrespect compliment and applaud him for that.

Mark's respect comes in a 6 figure paycheck every month and for that he has to deal with criticism of the Red Bull team.
He seems to manage quite well with that unlike some of his (over) sensitive fans


Don't care for your personal history dude and it surely doesn't give your post any more credence


You don't need to care about my personal history but what I am saying is that from a managerial perspective those type of comments do nothing to cultivate harmony in the workplace.

Regarding MW's 6 figure salary, money is not respect. I think we all regardless of how much we make deserve some respect. Even though I do not particularly like his celebratory leap, MW does not deserve a PUBLIC lashing.

#213 Supersleeper

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 05:43

Mark's respect comes in a 6 figure paycheck every month and for that he has to deal with criticism of the Red Bull team.

Perhaps one of the most misguided versions of a professional relationship between driver and team that has ever been posted.

In a nutshell - Marko is entirely unprofessional in his approach to the sport. The idea that this is motivation stems from a journal spinning it to get brownie points - little more. Journos always want to be friends with the popular kids.

#214 seahawk

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 06:13

Perhaps one of the most misguided versions of a professional relationship between driver and team that has ever been posted.

In a nutshell - Marko is entirely unprofessional in his approach to the sport. The idea that this is motivation stems from a journal spinning it to get brownie points - little more. Journos always want to be friends with the popular kids.


Marko is not there to motivate, he is there to make RedBull win. If Webber can not find motivation in being given one of the fastest cars and equal status for most of the season (well until he is out the WDC race), he might needs to be fired.

If the TR guys concnetrate on fighting each other but performa average compared to young drivers in other theams, they need to be reminded, that the RBR seat could easily go to a driver from outside the RBR junior program. Marko would be an indiot, if he say he would rather have Vergne than Hülkenberg in the RBR. As Marko said, an excellent driver does not need to be motivated, he just needs to be given the tools to shine.

#215 bourbon

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 06:42

You don't need to care about my personal history but what I am saying is that from a managerial perspective those type of comments do nothing to cultivate harmony in the workplace.

Regarding MW's 6 figure salary, money is not respect. I think we all regardless of how much we make deserve some respect. Even though I do not particularly like his celebratory leap, MW does not deserve a PUBLIC lashing.


I can feel for MW, but I felt for the team too. After all, he did the same thing when he implicated Horner, Marko, Newey and other decision makers on the team and the factory/crew itself, accusing them of bias, favortism, unfair dealing and sabotage. It is easy enough to say Mark is criticizing Red Bull, but he was in reality, accusing individuals. I agree they should keep that stuff internal, just saying.

Edited by bourbon, 11 January 2013 - 06:43.


#216 Szoelloe

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 06:44

Marko is not there to motivate, he is there to make RedBull win.



Its funny you even seem to actually believe this BS.

#217 seahawk

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 06:53

Its funny you even seem to actually believe this BS.

Well, it depends on how we define "make them win". But considering hos role, his relationship to Mateschitz and in which magazine the interview was published, I think it was way more than the rant of an old man. Maybe Red Bull (and I do not mean RBR) is getting fed up with Webber´s actions. Considering how good Webber is at playing the media game, I see it as logical that Red Bull also using the media to get their point ofview across.

#218 Supersleeper

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 07:09

Marko is not there to motivate, he is there to make RedBull win.

OK - you disagree with JAs suck up piece to the team and so do I, but I can't agree with you suggesting that he is there to win, because he just doesn't have that capacity.

You've mentioned Webber playing the media game - that's a little unfair. He's had some things to say when he's been pissed off and is stewing, Sitting around doing a puff piece for your own magazine that has been scripted is an entirely different matter and its grossly unfair to compare what both have said in those respective situations.

#219 Supersleeper

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 07:11

I can feel for MW, but I felt for the team too. After all, he did the same thing when he implicated Horner, Marko, Newey and other decision makers on the team and the factory/crew itself, accusing them of bias, favortism, unfair dealing and sabotage. It is easy enough to say Mark is criticizing Red Bull, but he was in reality, accusing individuals. I agree they should keep that stuff internal, just saying.

Didn't catch the article where he accuses the team of sabotaging him. Have a link to that one?

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#220 bourbon

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 07:47

Didn't catch the article where he accuses the team of sabotaging him. Have a link to that one?


Parts Sabotage:

“Whether the gap between us in qualifying was the difference between the two front wings, I don’t know,” says Mark. “But it was a far from ideal situation and it definitely made my win taste even sweeter.” - Mark Following His Silverstone Win

"Australian Webber, who won at Silverstone on Sunday, said afterwards that he would not have signed with Red Bull for 2011 if he thought he was going to be teammate Sebastian Vettel’s number two. But boss Horner said that if a similar situation arises in the future, he would once again take the decision to remove a new front wing from one car and attach it to the other. Asked if this means he would receive the best parts at Hockenheim now that he is ahead in the championship, Webber told reporters: “I should do.”
Mark Following Silvestone.

Emotional Sabotage:

"It was suggested to Webber in a news conference that he did not feel the team were emotionally behind him. "I don’t think I was maybe meant to be in the hunt at all so it has been maybe quite inconvenient." [...] "It’s 'Fn' obvious isn’t it? When young charges come on to the block that’s where the emotion is." " Mark Prior to Brazil



Getting into a discussion about what was "meant" by these comments, would get a bit off topic. But the point is that Mark did speak to the press about intrateam issues, much as Marko is doing now. I don't approve of the practice myself.

Edited by bourbon, 11 January 2013 - 08:10.


#221 AndreasF1

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:12

It's interesting how the Ferrari fans rush to Webbers aid, critizising Marko's treatment of him. Enzo Ferrari himself was the worst offender when it came to publicly ridiculing his drivers and staff in the eye of the storm. Ask Lauda or Mauro Forghieri for details.


#222 seahawk

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:15

OK - you disagree with JAs suck up piece to the team and so do I, but I can't agree with you suggesting that he is there to win, because he just doesn't have that capacity.

You've mentioned Webber playing the media game - that's a little unfair. He's had some things to say when he's been pissed off and is stewing, Sitting around doing a puff piece for your own magazine that has been scripted is an entirely different matter and its grossly unfair to compare what both have said in those respective situations.


What Marko said was intentional without any doubt, the question is why it was published. For me there are 3 obvious reasons.

1. Mateschitz (Red Bull) is unhappy about Webber´s actions in Brazil and he wants to make that very clear. (kind of last season for you warning)
2. also a clear message to the TR drivers, that they are not doing good enough to be considered for a seat at RBR (Buemi and Jamie also had to go)
3. A message to Ferrari, that they must be careful with their planing. Kind of reminding them that they can not try for Vettel and consider Hulk as a secure back-up, as RBR might act first and take away both options from them.

I must say for me the interesting bits are 2+3. (only in combination, 2 alone is nothing new)
That Webber´s action had an impact on his future at RBR, was obvious directly after Brazil.

I would say he wants Vettel to sign a new contract with RBR and to achieve this, seems to be the whole motivation behind the interview.

Edited by seahawk, 11 January 2013 - 08:41.


#223 Supersleeper

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:31

Parts Sabotage:

“Whether the gap between us in qualifying was the difference between the two front wings, I don’t know,” says Mark. “But it was a far from ideal situation and it definitely made my win taste even sweeter.” - Mark Following His Silverstone Win

"Australian Webber, who won at Silverstone on Sunday, said afterwards that he would not have signed with Red Bull for 2011 if he thought he was going to be teammate Sebastian Vettel’s number two. But boss Horner said that if a similar situation arises in the future, he would once again take the decision to remove a new front wing from one car and attach it to the other. Asked if this means he would receive the best parts at Hockenheim now that he is ahead in the championship, Webber told reporters: “I should do.”
Mark Following Silvestone.

Emotional Sabotage:

"It was suggested to Webber in a news conference that he did not feel the team were emotionally behind him. "I don’t think I was maybe meant to be in the hunt at all so it has been maybe quite inconvenient." [...] "It’s 'Fn' obvious isn’t it? When young charges come on to the block that’s where the emotion is." " Mark Prior to Brazil

You'd do far better to say that sabotage was a bit over the top, than trot out those articles as support.

#224 Supersleeper

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:46

What Marko said was intentional without any doubt, the question is why it was published. For me there are 3 obvious reasons.

1. Mateschitz (Red Bull) is unhappy about Webber´s actions in Brazil and he wants to make that very clear. (kind of last season for you warning)
2. also a clear message to the TR drivers, that they are not doing good enough to be considered for a seat at RBR (Buemi and Jamie also had to go)
3. A message to Ferrari, that they must be careful with their planing. Kind of reminding them that they can not try for Vettel and consider Hulk as a secure back-up, as RBR might act first and take away both options from them.

I must say for me the interesting bits are 2+3. (only in combination, 2 alone is nothing new)
That Webber´s action had an impact on his future at RBR, was obvious directly after Brazil.

I would say he wants Vettel to sign a new contract with RBR and to achieve this seems to be the whole motivation behind the interview.

Well I'd disagree about 1 - because Webbers driving in Brazil has been blown entirely out of proportion. There are some people who would have you believe that a car can disappear into thin air on the inside of turn 1 - or that overshooting turn 1 wasn't because you moved your car too far to the right to avoid your teammate, but casually forgot the very easy move Seb made past Mark. Marko blew up - but that's just because he's a little bit emotionally retarded.

Disagree with your second point, because Helmut would just wander on into the garage and lay down some of this kind of caring, sharing humanly responsible motivation.

As for 3 Ferrari couldn't care less what Marko thinks - most people in his own team don't.

Sorry mate, that was a little bit terse, but I don't believe in giving people credit for having cunning and guile, when then just have a big mouth and love shooting it off at the first opportunity.

edit: atrocious grammar.

Edited by Supersleeper, 11 January 2013 - 08:47.


#225 Sakae

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 10:16

This thread has become really hard to take, and the external raids OT defending Webber on several count absolutely sordid in attempts to deflect attention from reality. Instead, Dr. Marko's name is dragged through the gutter, yet I wonder how many local heroes would have really audacity to stand up, and say that garbage into his face. To claim that no one listens to him in his team implies either intimate inside knowledge, or just spreading rumors based on flippant talk in the beer pub of an (perhaps former) employee having one drink too many. People privy to his counsel can present credible views on his input, but are they talking?
Would be useful to realize, that a man in Marko’s position is not there to interfere with day-to-day operations, but to observe, occasionally perhaps change small issues that have no merit to visit Horner's office, but main thrust of the team's direction is discussed with Horner and his management team behind closed door, and those guys usually do not talk in the pub; at least I hope not. In conclusion, any claims about Marko's work, be it beneficial or otherwise, is conjecture in its nature, lacking any substance based on credible knowledge, since most posters aren't qualified to make any such statements, and until Horner comes up with damning of him, then all what we have is a team that transit from a midfielder in an enviable contender. That's the only fact that counts.
Anyone with executive management experience would know that personnel in these positions are merely responsible for providing environment in which business (and sporting) goals could flourish, they are responsible for vision and direction team will take, and as far as I am concern, Dr. Marko is part of the team, which has succeeded. Kudos to him for that just as to others, which includes Vettel, BTW. My defense of Marko does not precludes possibility, that he is hard to take in fast pacing environment, or easy to get along, but that does not makes him wrong, or evil.

Edited by Sakae, 11 January 2013 - 10:19.


#226 H2H

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 11:31

This thread has become really hard to take, and the external raids OT defending Webber on several count absolutely sordid in attempts to deflect attention from reality. Instead, Dr. Marko's name is dragged through the gutter, yet I wonder how many local heroes would have really audacity to stand up, and say that garbage into his face. To claim that no one listens to him in his team implies either intimate inside knowledge, or just spreading rumors based on flippant talk in the beer pub of an (perhaps former) employee having one drink too many. People privy to his counsel can present credible views on his input, but are they talking?

Would be useful to realize, that a man in Marko’s position is not there to interfere with day-to-day operations, but to observe, occasionally perhaps change small issues that have no merit to visit Horner's office, but main thrust of the team's direction is discussed with Horner and his management team behind closed door, and those guys usually do not talk in the pub; at least I hope not. In conclusion, any claims about Marko's work, be it beneficial or otherwise, is conjecture in its nature, lacking any substance based on credible knowledge, since most posters aren't qualified to make any such statements, and until Horner comes up with damning of him, then all what we have is a team that transit from a midfielder in an enviable contender. That's the only fact that counts.

Anyone with executive management experience would know that personnel in these positions are merely responsible for providing environment in which business (and sporting) goals could flourish, they are responsible for vision and direction team will take, and as far as I am concern, Dr. Marko is part of the team, which has succeeded. Kudos to him for that just as to others, which includes Vettel, BTW. My defense of Marko does not precludes possibility, that he is hard to take in fast pacing environment, or easy to get along, but that does not makes him wrong, or evil.


I think you summed it up pretty well. I just have to laugh if people claim some magic insider knowledge, especially after having their magic didn't work a couple of times. Marko can obviously pretty much say what he wants without getting, without much official interference from the team and the boss. He is the guy which to listen to before a race to get the best idea from the team about the strenght of the car as he likes to be frank and it worked out pretty well for me. I guess he is just a bit too direct for this PR and PC world which hurts some precious feelings. Mark is ironically somewhat similar in this regard, guess this is why they get along so well.;)

It is always amusing if people use contrasting benchmarks to judge similar comments and situations....

Edited by H2H, 11 January 2013 - 11:33.


#227 goldenboy

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:35

This thread has become really hard to take, and the external raids OT defending Webber on several count absolutely sordid in attempts to deflect attention from reality. Instead, Dr. Marko's name is dragged through the gutter, yet I wonder how many local heroes would have really audacity to stand up, and say that garbage in his face

I would say that to his face if I had the chance, if that answers your question.

You can call it garbage if you want, but it's quite obvious to anyone he loves talking trash about webber, and we could just as easily say what you write is garbage. Don't worry sakae, I've seen the smiley faces you post when webber has a bad race. Makes me realise you are hardly diplomatic yourself in what you write.

God only knows what he is like behind closed doors. There is an interview with Newey where he downright scoffs at markos comment that webber will probably be retiring. Makes me wonder how much they just tolerate from him.

#228 Owen

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:41

Interesting take from James Allen, despite what you may think of him, he's been around and knows when someone may have crossed the line. Bascially saying there may be 'fallout' to all this in the first part of the season.

http://www.jamesalle...ut-mark-webber/

#229 ayali

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 13:08

In a nutshell - Marko is entirely unprofessional in his approach to the sport.

Marko's approach to the sport is the Red Bull approach to the sport hence his views out in the open in the official Red Bull magazine.

They own the team(s) they decide how the game is played.
Mark doesn't seem to have a problem with that and wisely keeps quiet, his fans not so much :lol:

#230 ayali

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 13:12

What Marko said was intentional without any doubt, the question is why it was published. For me there are 3 obvious reasons.

1. Mateschitz (Red Bull) is unhappy about Webber´s actions in Brazil and he wants to make that very clear. (kind of last season for you warning)
2. also a clear message to the TR drivers, that they are not doing good enough to be considered for a seat at RBR (Buemi and Jamie also had to go)
3. A message to Ferrari, that they must be careful with their planing. Kind of reminding them that they can not try for Vettel and consider Hulk as a secure back-up, as RBR might act first and take away both options from them.

I must say for me the interesting bits are 2+3. (only in combination, 2 alone is nothing new)
That Webber´s action had an impact on his future at RBR, was obvious directly after Brazil.

I would say he wants Vettel to sign a new contract with RBR and to achieve this, seems to be the whole motivation behind the interview.

1 & 2 sure that's nothing new

3 is merely your imagination running away with you imo but who knows, stranger things have happened and I agree Dr Marko never does anything without purpose.

#231 seahawk

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 13:31

1 & 2 sure that's nothing new

3 is merely your imagination running away with you imo but who knows, stranger things have happened and I agree Dr Marko never does anything without purpose.


I would agree with you on 3, if it would be a normal TV interview. But this is a fully edited interview in the Red Bull magazine and Marko is a doctor of law, so I believe that not one word is there without a reason. And the questions asked, are asked for a reason as well.

Regarding the small part about Hülkenberg, Marko would not mention Red Bull´s former contacts with Hülkenberg, if he would not intend to say something with it.

#232 ayali

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 13:45

I would agree with you on 3, if it would be a normal TV interview. But this is a fully edited interview in the Red Bull magazine and Marko is a doctor of law, so I believe that not one word is there without a reason. And the questions asked, are asked for a reason as well.

Regarding the small part about Hülkenberg, Marko would not mention Red Bull´s former contacts with Hülkenberg, if he would not intend to say something with it.

Hmm you might have a point there :up:
Maybe it's best to agree to disagree on the significance and interpretation we give to Marko's words about Hulkenberg.

Anyway it would be helpful if somebody gets his hands on the original Sport Bild interview.

Edited by ayali, 11 January 2013 - 13:46.


#233 Clatter

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 14:11

What Marko said was intentional without any doubt, the question is why it was published. For me there are 3 obvious reasons.

1. Mateschitz (Red Bull) is unhappy about Webber´s actions in Brazil and he wants to make that very clear. (kind of last season for you warning)
2. also a clear message to the TR drivers, that they are not doing good enough to be considered for a seat at RBR (Buemi and Jamie also had to go)
3. A message to Ferrari, that they must be careful with their planing. Kind of reminding them that they can not try for Vettel and consider Hulk as a secure back-up, as RBR might act first and take away both options from them.

I must say for me the interesting bits are 2+3. (only in combination, 2 alone is nothing new)
That Webber´s action had an impact on his future at RBR, was obvious directly after Brazil.

I would say he wants Vettel to sign a new contract with RBR and to achieve this, seems to be the whole motivation behind the interview.


Why on earth would they send out a message to help Ferrari in future planning?

#234 seahawk

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 14:23

Why on earth would they send out a message to help Ferrari in future planning?


Well, if Ferrari signs Hülkenberg for 2 years, they can hardly sign Vettel too. I do not think Marko wants to hire Hülkenberg, he wants to push Ferrari into signing him.

#235 ojebuje

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 14:23

-We don't have access to telemetry, but this forum does exist for our opinions. No one is saying it is useless.... Only none of us have access to it.

-We reason is clear why FA did not win..... The car..... Again, this idea that the Ferrari was as good as the RB is fiction, created by those wanting so desperately to believe that SV triumphed against adversity.

-Marko's comments against FA are unreasonable because, guess what, HE does not have Ferrari telemetry.....;)

-My reference to battles and adversity is my assessment of the text. I do not want to belittle anyone here, but finding the meaning of text requires one to make inferences.

When Marko talks about FA's supposed lack of focus of driving, we can ask what are the motivations.

When Marko downplays the significance of Newey and the car, we can ask what are the motivations.

When Marko attacks a driver that achieved more that he will ever achieve (JS), we can ask what are his motivations.

These chap wants to make RB's achievements greater than what they already are. This is achieved by

A) Hyping the competition's car, while understating his team's machinery

B) Hyping his driver, driving criticizing the performance of the opposing team's driver.

very well explained.
I also cant understand how anyone could say that it is hard to disagree with Marko.
A) He said Vettel drove flawlessly in the second part: in the last three races, he produced 2 crashes, he damaged his car on several occasions, he overtook off-the track, and lost to hamilton in austin, despite having the faster car (some would argue that).

B) about Vettel and overtaking. most of his overtaking were not overtaking in the sense of a battle, he was in most cases let passed, and in those where he had to battle, he made several mistakes, still this doesnt mean that he cant overtake, but in the best car, it is easier to overtake than in a car that is not the best.

C) Alonso is too political: Vettel was at least at the same level using his voice for a mental battle with alonso, and from my point of view. i like it when drivers use to a certain amount also mental games. i dont like it, when it is used too much, but when it is used to a certain amount, it can spice up the battle for the viewers

D) Vettel ignored Alonsos mental games: see point C, he did talk back, and i think it was in both cases not over the top, it was good, and it spiced up the game.

E) Alonso was under stress: Sure he was, but the admiring think is that he delievered flawlessly (in contrast to Vettel) under this stress and pressure

F) Alonso competing against Newey: Whether Marko likes it or not, this was this years battle. an almost flawlessy driving alonso against a car developer, who had to make the car that much faster than alonsos vehicle, to allow vettel to compete and to win.

I think that those people who have said that it is hard to disagree with Marko, were just showing their personal prefernces/animosities, without analysing Markos saying.

Edited by ojebuje, 11 January 2013 - 14:24.


#236 Skinnyguy

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 15:04

A) He said Vettel drove flawlessly in the second part: in the last three races, he produced 2 crashes, he damaged his car on several occasions, he overtook off-the track, and lost to hamilton in austin, despite having the faster car (some would argue that).

B) about Vettel and overtaking. most of his overtaking were not overtaking in the sense of a battle, he was in most cases let passed, and in those where he had to battle, he made several mistakes, still this doesnt mean that he cant overtake, but in the best car, it is easier to overtake than in a car that is not the best.

C) Alonso is too political: Vettel was at least at the same level using his voice for a mental battle with alonso, and from my point of view. i like it when drivers use to a certain amount also mental games. i dont like it, when it is used too much, but when it is used to a certain amount, it can spice up the battle for the viewers

D) Vettel ignored Alonsos mental games: see point C, he did talk back, and i think it was in both cases not over the top, it was good, and it spiced up the game.

E) Alonso was under stress: Sure he was, but the admiring think is that he delievered flawlessly (in contrast to Vettel) under this stress and pressure

F) Alonso competing against Newey: Whether Marko likes it or not, this was this years battle. an almost flawlessy driving alonso against a car developer, who had to make the car that much faster than alonsos vehicle, to allow vettel to compete and to win.

I think that those people who have said that it is hard to disagree with Marko, were just showing their personal prefernces/animosities, without analysing Markos saying.


A) He drove awesome races, contact or not. He didn´t show lack of pace relative to his teammate unlike others in these final rounds.

B) It´s not neccesarily easier to pass with the fastest package if it´s slow on the critical places (straights). Check Lotus VS Mercedes around Spa. Lotus had good pace advantage but it was a much worse car to be racing others closely. Red Bull is a very fast package, but not exactly a racy one. Being unable to pull alongside a Virgin in a loooong uphill straight despite KERS and a perfect slipstream isn´t exactly ideal for passing.

C) :lol: :lol: One guy stands as the driver-pundit airing his opinion on car´s strenghts, drivers´ performances, fighting engineers... the other refuses to respond,
says he just ignores these comments, shuts up and drive. BUT they are on the same political level. COol StoRy Bro. :smoking:

D) Not really. He said he ignored these comments. Didn´t get into a stupid confrontation talking RB down and Ferrari up at all.

E) Not really, when stress arised, Vettel was better. He was fast as hell and Alonso was a bit off-colour. Alonso was slightly better overall if you ask me, but saying he was better when pressure rised is BS.

F) You can buy whatever stories fit you. But don´t try to make them facts.

#237 ojebuje

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 15:18

A) He drove awesome races, contact or not. He didn´t show lack of pace relative to his teammate unlike others in these final rounds.

B) It´s not neccesarily easier to pass with the fastest package if it´s slow on the critical places (straights). Check Lotus VS Mercedes around Spa. Lotus had good pace advantage but it was a much worse car to be racing others closely. Red Bull is a very fast package, but not exactly a racy one. Being unable to pull alongside a Virgin in a loooong uphill straight despite KERS and a perfect slipstream isn´t exactly ideal for passing.

C) :lol: :lol: One guy stands as the driver-pundit airing his opinion on car´s strenghts, drivers´ performances, fighting engineers... the other refuses to respond,
says he just ignores these comments, shuts up and drive. BUT they are on the same political level. COol StoRy Bro. :smoking:

D) Not really. He said he ignored these comments. Didn´t get into a stupid confrontation talking RB down and Ferrari up at all.

E) Not really, when stress arised, Vettel was better. He was fast as hell and Alonso was a bit off-colour. Alonso was slightly better overall if you ask me, but saying he was better when pressure rised is BS.

F) You can buy whatever stories fit you. But don´t try to make them facts.

A) in the last 3 races Webber qualified 2 times Vettel (and even though vettel was underfuelled in abu dhabi) and that although as RB has admitted the car was made to fit Vettel better, as Massa did with alonso. so what is your point?
not to forget that alonso has outscored vettel in the last 3 races, despite being in a far less competitive car. again what is your point?
And as a matter of fact: Alonso has scored the most points in the last 3 races.

B) fairy tale. sure it is in general easier to overtake with a faster car. + vettel was let passed and not overtook most of the competitors. with the others he has his problems, and even crashed into them or overtook them off-track-

C+D) dont know what media you were following, but Vettel played also a lot of mind games, and as i said, it was good from both, coz it spiced up the game, but to say that vettel didnt do it, is a lie.

E) see also A) Alonso outscored Vettel in the final phase of the championship (FINAL THREE RACES) despite being in a slower car.

F) you can do it too, but it is a fact that vettel needed a car that is far better than the of his opponents to beat them, we saw the contrast in the first part of the season, although even there RB was fast as hell.

Edited by ojebuje, 11 January 2013 - 15:21.


#238 Skinnyguy

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 15:43

A) in the last 3 races Webber qualified 2 times Vettel (and even though vettel was underfuelled in abu dhabi) and that although as RB has admitted the car was made to fit Vettel better, as Massa did with alonso. so what is your point?


My point is that Vettel slaughtered Webber overall in these 3 races. On the other hand Massa matched and beated Alonso´s performances overall in the same period.

not to forget that alonso has outscored vettel in the last 3 races, despite being in a far less competitive car. again what is your point?
And as a matter of fact: Alonso has scored the most points in the last 3 races.


Yeah, very cool. Button scored more than anyone in the last 6 races of 2006. But I think he didn´t do a better job than Alonso or Schumacher in those, do you?

B) fairy tale.


No. Racing´s A-B-C. Slow in a straight line = hard to pass.

C+D) dont know what media you were following, but Vettel played also a lot of mind games, and as i said, it was good from both, coz it spiced up the game, but to say that vettel didnt do it, is a lie.


These where the only thing we heard from him was "these comments don´t bother me, I ignore them".


E) see also A) Alonso outscored Vettel in the final phase of the championship (FINAL THREE RACES) despite being in a slower car.


Yeah, very cool. Button scored more than anyone in the last 6 races of 2006. But I think he didn´t do a better job than Alonso or Schumacher in those, do you?

F) you can do it too, but it is a fact that vettel needed a car that is far better than the of his opponents to beat them, we saw the contrast in the first part of the season, although even there RB was fast as hell.


What´s a fact is that F1 is a fight between a engineers+driver combos. When someone takes any of these parts out of the equation to look good, he´s just talking rubbish. If you buy it, your problem.

#239 ojebuje

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 15:58

My point is that Vettel slaughtered Webber overall in these 3 races. On the other hand Massa matched and beated Alonso´s performances overall in the same period.

which is a nonsense. webber was in at least 2 out of those 3 finale races at least ad fast as vettel, if not even faster (see qualy), despite driving a car, which RB admitted was made to fit vettel better. and massa matched alonso. again what is your point. And you said massa beated alonsos overall performances? well this is an interesting fairy tale, explain further :drunk:

Yeah, very cool. Button scored more than anyone in the last 6 races of 2006. But I think he didn´t do a better job than Alonso or Schumacher in those, do you?

in those cases schu and alo had their dnfs, which but didnt, but nevertheless it was very impressive work by button doing it.
nevertheless, alonso scored more points than vettel, in the final three races, because he didnt made a mistake, and not because he had a better car.

No. Racing´s A-B-C. Slow in a straight line = hard to pass.

thr rb is best car in acceleration, which is same important as straight line speed, and so he had a car which made him the life easy when overtaking, although he didnt have to overtake that much, he was let passed.

These where the only thing we heard from him was "these comments don´t bother me, I ignore them".

there were a lot more, like i dont have to use weapons, i am not that militaralistic. or like samurai quotes (he understood them literally, not metaphporically) are something archaic and not up to date, or i dont have a number 2 driver etc.



Yeah, very cool. Button scored more than anyone in the last 6 races of 2006. But I think he didn´t do a better job than Alonso or Schumacher in those, do you?

see above

What´s a fact is that F1 is a fight between a engineers+driver combos. When someone takes any of these parts out of the equation to look good, he´s just talking rubbish. If you buy it, your problem.

thats why Marko is talking bullshit, because he wont admit that alonsos material was not that good, and just because of alonsos excellence (or vettels lack of it), we fans had a battle till the last race.

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#240 bourbon

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 16:17

You'd do far better to say that sabotage was a bit over the top, than trot out those articles as support.


Well that is your opinion. My position has not changed.

The bottom line is that I personally do not think it is necessary or good for the team that either man speak on intrateam matters in the press.

#241 Bean

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 16:20

E) see also A) Alonso outscored Vettel in the final phase of the championship (FINAL THREE RACES) despite being in a slower car.


Heh, opinions are one thing, but a comment like this makes it hard to take the rest of what you write seriously.

In Abu Dhabi Vettel started last through no fault of his own and finished one place behind Alonso.
Vettel finished better than Alonso in Austin.
Vettel didn't NEED to outscore Alonso in Brazil.

Continuing to bring up 'points scored' as an exclusive indication of performance is a weak argument that doesn't take into account... well... much of anything.


#242 ojebuje

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 16:24

Heh, opinions are one thing, but a comment like this makes it hard to take the rest of what you write seriously.

In Abu Dhabi Vettel started last through no fault of his own and finished one place behind Alonso.
Vettel finished better than Alonso in Austin.
Vettel didn't NEED to outscore Alonso in Brazil.

Continuing to bring up 'points scored' as an exclusive indication of performance is a weak argument that doesn't take into account... well... much of anything.

it is not weak, it just shows that alonso didnt drove bad in the last three races, or worse than vettel, as some tried to point out.
thats it.
alonso delivered three podiums in the last three races (2 times secod, 1 time third), and some try to argue alonso didnt deliver, or he delivered less than vettel.
he was there, and achieved the maximum in that ferrari, which vettel didnt in his rb.

Edited by ojebuje, 11 January 2013 - 16:25.


#243 Winter98

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 17:10

very well explained.
I also cant understand how anyone could say that it is hard to disagree with Marko.


Because most of what he said is factual.

A) He said Vettel drove flawlessly in the second part: in the last three races, he produced 2 crashes, he damaged his car on several occasions, he overtook off-the track, and lost to hamilton in austin, despite having the faster car (some would argue that).


Vettel did exactly what he had to do to win the WDC. He obviously correctly assessed the risk/reward of what he did, because if he hadn't Alonso would be WDC.

B) about Vettel and overtaking. most of his overtaking were not overtaking in the sense of a battle, he was in most cases let passed, and in those where he had to battle, he made several mistakes, still this doesnt mean that he cant overtake, but in the best car, it is easier to overtake than in a car that is not the best.


Yet Vettel did it in a car with slower top end speed. Three WDCs on the trot, Abu Dhabi and Brazil, and people are still trying to say he can't pass?

C) Alonso is too political: Vettel was at least at the same level using his voice for a mental battle with alonso, and from my point of view. i like it when drivers use to a certain amount also mental games. i dont like it, when it is used too much, but when it is used to a certain amount, it can spice up the battle for the viewers


What Alonso did was pathetic. A whole media campaign building himself up by demeaning another driver, and worse, a driver he can't beat on the track. Like I said: pathetic.

D) Vettel ignored Alonsos mental games: see point C, he did talk back, and i think it was in both cases not over the top, it was good, and it spiced up the game.


Obviously Vettel got the better of the mental game by almost completely ignoring Alonso. It was Alonso who had a fast enough car down the stretch, as proved by Massa, and failed to deliver. Alonso proved his mental weakness when he started the "I'm racing Newey" nonsense. And when he called himself a samurai he confirmed it.

E) Alonso was under stress: Sure he was, but the admiring think is that he delievered flawlessly (in contrast to Vettel) under this stress and pressure


He finished second when he had a car, as proven by Massa, that was quick enough to win it all. That is not "delivering flawlessly", unless you buy the hype instead of watching the races.

F) Alonso competing against Newey: Whether Marko likes it or not, this was this years battle. an almost flawlessy driving alonso against a car developer, who had to make the car that much faster than alonsos vehicle, to allow vettel to compete and to win.


Alonso loses down the stretch in a car Massa proves is quick enough, and then Alonso blames his lack of finishing on the car, and starts a campaign demeaning another driver. I guess Alonso's fans are running out of excuses after their favourite driver has been beaten three consecutive years by someone with far less experience.

I think that those people who have said that it is hard to disagree with Marko, were just showing their personal prefernces/animosities, without analysing Markos saying.


Unfortunately, you have it backwards. Most of what Marko said is factual, whether you like it or not.

Edited by Winter98, 11 January 2013 - 17:11.


#244 Winter98

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 17:23

E) see also A) Alonso outscored Vettel in the final phase of the championship (FINAL THREE RACES) despite being in a slower car.


Apparently you don't understand how the scoring in F1 works. The ultimate goal is to win the WCC and WDC. In order to do that you have to have more points at the end of the year. This is the same in virtually every sport on the planet: You need the best record as per the rules to win the championship.

Because the idea is to end up with the best record, down the stretch the team that is ahead will often be more defensive, and run the opposition out of time or in this case laps. Virtually every professional team or athlete does this. Watch Soccer, Hockey, Basketball, Curling, Football, or any other sport. Of course this strategy doesn't guarentee a championshihp. If you're not good enough, or are prone to falter under pressure, you can still lose the championship, as Alonso demonstrated in 2010.

Hope that helps.

Edited by Winter98, 11 January 2013 - 17:43.


#245 ojebuje

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 20:58

Because most of what he said is factual.

as already pointed out it wasnt. but here you have it again:



Vettel did exactly what he had to do to win the WDC. He obviously correctly assessed the risk/reward of what he did, because if he hadn't Alonso would be WDC.

especially having abu dhabi in mind, vettel didnt asses the risks correctly, and it was not in his hands that his car wasnt more damaged, brazil too.


Yet Vettel did it in a car with slower top end speed. Three WDCs on the trot, Abu Dhabi and Brazil, and people are still trying to say he can't pass?

top speed doesnt say, how quickly a car accelerates, or how early a car allows a driver to accelerate out of a corner.


What Alonso did was pathetic. A whole media campaign building himself up by demeaning another driver, and worse, a driver he can't beat on the track. Like I said: pathetic.

the words you use to describe it, shows a little lack of class, the class which you demand of alonso.
there was no media campaign, there was a little mind game between vettel and alonso, and both have contributed to it. so if alonsos mind games were pathetic (your words) then vettels were too.


Obviously Vettel got the better of the mental game by almost completely ignoring Alonso.

as already pointed out, he didnt ignore it, he bounced back and in 2 out of the last three races, he showed a lot of nerves, with making crashes, accusing e.g. riciardo for his own faults, and overtaking off-track.

It was Alonso who had a fast enough car down the stretch, as proved by Massa, and failed to deliver.

alonso drove in all of the last 3 races on the podium, beating massa (except in qualy, it was 2-1 for massa in, as it was 2-1 for webber against vettel) and he scored the most points of all drivers in the last 3 races, and you call it he failed to deliver :drunk: (using your words, that claim is pathetic)

Alonso proved his mental weakness when he started the "I'm racing Newey" nonsense. And when he called himself a samurai he confirmed it.

this is no weakness, this is part of the f1-mental game + the newey-fact is true.
he believes in samurai-stuff in a metaphorically way (i personally not), nothing bad about it.


He finished second when he had a car, as proven by Massa, that was quick enough to win it all. That is not "delivering flawlessly", unless you buy the hype instead of watching the races.

cant remember that massa won any race, or was even near it, so what is your point.



Alonso loses down the stretch in a car Massa proves is quick enough, and then Alonso blames his lack of finishing on the car, and starts a campaign demeaning another driver. I guess Alonso's fans are running out of excuses after their favourite driver has been beaten three consecutive years by someone with far less experience.

again, what is your point, he scored the most points of all driverts (including massa) and you claim he was beaten by massa.
and when did alonso demanded another driver?
there are no excuses, vettel won (in the best car), alonso became 2nd (in the 3rd best car), all in all a great championship.


Unfortunately, you have it backwards. Most of what Marko said is factual, whether you like it or not.

as shown, actually, if you analyse it everything what marko said was a construed bullshit to make vettel look better, which is per se not wrong, but the way he did it, it was not correct. anyway, he has the right to say what he thinks, but we have the right to analyse it and if he was wrong, to prove him wrong.

Edited by ojebuje, 11 January 2013 - 21:00.


#246 Supersleeper

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 00:50

The bottom line is that I personally do not think it is necessary or good for the team that either man speak on intrateam matters in the press.

Comparing the vile comments made in an orchestrated interview with a senior team figure that probably took weeks to plan with a journo stuffing a microphone under a drivers nose 10 minutes after he had his front wing stolen, or 30 seconds after he crossed the line feeling like the only people he can trust in the team are inside the garage on his side of it, is ridiculous.

No more. Your comparisons are ludicrous.

#247 Supersleeper

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:09

Mark doesn't seem to have a problem with that .....

No mate - instead of sitting around with the Red Bull PR machine figuring out ways to make a world championship winning team look like the Clampets - he's out there as an individual doing great things for lost friends and charities close to people's hearts.

http://www.thesun.co...ute-to-Dan.html

Amazing that in the same week a corporate giant dedicated itself to being so small minded, whilst they guy they're gutting proves what he's like away from the track. A true comparison of the 2.

I'd be embarrassed to be a Red Bull employee this week. Being forced to watch the depths to which Red Bull management will stoop.

Edited by Supersleeper, 12 January 2013 - 01:19.


#248 goldenboy

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 02:07

Wonder how much those helmets will go for. Serious question.

#249 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 02:37

I'd be embarrassed to be a Red Bull employee this week. Being forced to watch the depths to which Red Bull management will stoop.

I imagine most Red Bull employees will just roll their eyes at Marko :rolleyes: .

Wonder how much those helmets will go for. Serious question.

Currently, Webber's Japanese Grand Prix helmer is at £4311. Wouldn't be surprised if it doubled that.

#250 goldenboy

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 03:01

Currently, Webber's Japanese Grand Prix helmer is at £4311. Wouldn't be surprised if it doubled that.

Hmmm have a child, make a nursery and start a family, or buy an F1 drivers helmet and start an F1 viewing room man cave...