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Marko hits out at Vettel Critics [split]


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#251 Winter98

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 03:03

especially having abu dhabi in mind, vettel didnt asses the risks correctly, and it was not in his hands that his car wasnt more damaged, brazil too.


Who won the WDC? Game, set, and match on that one.

top speed doesnt say, how quickly a car accelerates, or how early a car allows a driver to accelerate out of a corner.


Vettel has learned to pass, and he has gotten really good at it in a real short time.

Other drivers can see SV is special. Why else would Alonso feel the need to start a campaign demeaning another driver, one he couldn't beat on the track fair and square? Finding a mental weakness in Vettel was his only chance, and he knew it.

the words you use to describe it, shows a little lack of class, the class which you demand of alonso.


I stated the truth, nothing more. Building yourself up by demeaning another driver, one you can't beat on the track, is pathetic.

At least here in Canada. Judging by your response, maybe its normal behaviour where you come from. I don't know.

there was no media campaign, there was a little mind game between vettel and alonso, and both have contributed to it. so if alonsos mind games were pathetic (your words) then vettels were too.


That is flat wrong as has been clearly documented in the media the last months. You are either being disengenous or don't know the facts

as already pointed out, he didnt ignore it, he bounced back and in 2 out of the last three races, he showed a lot of nerves, with making crashes, accusing e.g. riciardo for his own faults, and overtaking off-track.
alonso drove in all of the last 3 races on the podium, beating massa (except in qualy, it was 2-1 for massa in, as it was 2-1 for webber against vettel) and he scored the most points of all drivers in the last 3 races, and you call it he failed to deliver :drunk: (using your words, that claim is pathetic)


Didn't I already explain this to you? Here it is again: In sports, when you are ahead with the championship on the line, the smart thing to do is to become more defensive, and run out the clock or in this case the number of laps before your opponent can catch up. Obviously Vettel did it to perfection as he won his 3rd WDC.

Of course, if you aren't good enough, or you are weak mentally and fold under pressure, this strategy can fail and a younger, better, mentally tougher driver can pass you in the last race of the year to win the championship.

he believes in samurai-stuff in a metaphorically way (i personally not), nothing bad about it.


Really? Where you come from its normal for people to go around seriously saying they are a samurai? Here in Canada that makes you a grade "A" douche.


as shown, actually, if you analyse it everything what marko said was a construed bullshit to make vettel look better, which is per se not wrong, but the way he did it, it was not correct. anyway, he has the right to say what he thinks, but we have the right to analyse it and if he was wrong, to prove him wrong.


LOL. Vettel is a three time WDC, youngest of all time, and has accomplished something only managed by two drivers, two of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport. Vettel's place amongst the legends of F1 is secure. He knows it, Marko knows it, and Alonso knows it. There is absolutely no need for Marko to pump up Vettel, nor does he.

Edited by Winter98, 12 January 2013 - 03:28.


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#252 Winter98

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 03:24

No more. Your comparisons are ludicrous.


I know you addressed the above to bourbon,

But you said:

Go and have a look just prior to the podium ceremony at Monaco this year. Alonso greets Newey with a reverence I have never seen before - it's amazing.


You should really read your own posts before saying someone else comparisons are ludicrous.

#253 Kingshark

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 03:38

Who won the WDC? Game, set, and match on that one.



Vettel has learned to pass, and he has gotten really good at it in a real short time.

Other drivers can see SV is special. Why else would Alonso feel the need to start a campaign demeaning another driver, one he couldn't beat on the track fair and square? Finding a mental weakness in Vettel was his only chance, and he knew it.

I stated the truth, nothing more. Building yourself up by demeaning another driver, one you can't beat on the track, is pathetic.

Again you are trying to belittle the obvious car advantage Vettel's had this season, along with the previous two. :rolleyes:

Red Bull had the quickest car throughout the season and considerably better reliability than Mclaren, and Vettel nearly lost it to a guy who drove the F2012. Statistics don't tell half the story, especially not in a sport which is 80% car and 20% driver.

Nelson Piquet might have won more championships, but Motorsport historians will always remember Jim Clark as a much better great. Touché J Villeneuve and Stirling Moss.

Quite frankly, Alonso and Vettel is the same. If this season proved anything, it just showed how much better both Alonso and Hamilton are as drivers than Vettel. Marko is living in a fantasy world where his goldboy is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Vettel's mental strength my arse.

#254 Supersleeper

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 03:43

You should really read your own posts before saying someone else comparisons are ludicrous.

I don't get it - if I got the year right, it was defining moment of Alonsos admiration for Newey.

#255 Winter98

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:05

Again you are trying to belittle the obvious car advantage Vettel's had this season, along with the previous two. :rolleyes:

Red Bull had the quickest car throughout the season and considerably better reliability than Mclaren, and Vettel nearly lost it to a guy who drove the F2012. Statistics don't tell half the story, especially not in a sport which is 80% car and 20% driver.


IMO the Ferrari and McLaren were right there with the RBR on any given Sunday.

I'm just not buying all the politicing. I've read all the arguments on both sides, and that's my opinion, although it my differ from yours.

Nelson Piquet might have won more championships, but Motorsport historians will always remember Jim Clark as a much better great. Touché J Villeneuve and Stirling Moss.

Clark was arguably one of the greatest drivers of all time, and had a career far beyond F1, so its hardly fair to say his F1 career is supposed to define him.

Same can be said of Moss. F1 was only a small part of his driving resume, so it is unfair to use it to define him.

GV is a countryman of mine, and the driver that got me interested in F1, and maybe my all time favourite driver. But if he hadn't died, and still never won a WDC in his career, his stock would be considerably lower.

Quite frankly, Alonso and Vettel is the same. If this season proved anything, it just showed how much better both Alonso and Hamilton are as drivers than Vettel.


You can argue that point, and you may even be correct (although I dont think so obviously), but becoming the youngest 3 time WDC by a mile, and accomplishing what only two drivers, two of the greatest in the history of F1, have done guarentees Vettel a spot amongst the legends. The same can't be said for Alonso or Hamilton, unless they improve their resumes.

You can consider it unfair, but it's the way history works.

Edited by Winter98, 12 January 2013 - 04:15.


#256 Kingshark

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:15

Fair enough, if that's your opinion, then so be it.

However, I personally still believe that worldwide reputation is more important than actual accomplishments and records. Most people, whether you like it or not, do believe that Alonso is the most complete driver in F1 today.

Although, to avoid going around in circles -- Winter98, do you believe Senna would switch his global reputation, as the greatest driver of all time, for Schumacher's 7 WDC if he was given the chance to do so?

Edited by Kingshark, 12 January 2013 - 04:16.


#257 Winter98

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:22

Fair enough, if that's your opinion, then so be it.

I've read your posts, and figured you would be cool with that. Thanks. :)

However, I personally still believe that worldwide reputation is more important than actual accomplishments and records. Most people, whether you like it or not, do believe that Alonso is the most complete driver in F1 today.

Although, to avoid going around in circles -- Winter98, do you believe Senna would switch his global reputation, as the greatest driver of all time, for Schumacher's 7 WDC if he was given the chance to do so?


Again, as it was unfair to only use Clark's and Moss' F1 careers to define them, IMO Senna vs MS WDCs is another unfair comparison. Senna died early, and I think it highly likely, as do most other people, that he would have won more WDCs. Maybe a lot more. So three isn't his "real" total WDCs when he is ranked.

That's why I rate Senna higher than Vettel at this time, regardless of what Ascanelli says. (Although Vettel may prove me wrong in the future.)

Edited by Winter98, 12 January 2013 - 04:40.


#258 ojebuje

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:47

Who won the WDC? Game, set, and match on that one.

everybody knows it, who won it. and i also said it. i have no problem with it.



Vettel has learned to pass, and he has gotten really good at it in a real short time.

i cant remember that vettel was at any time bad in passing, he always passed really good. and i cant remember that there were people (or say some experts) who said it otherwise.
the thing about is, because vettel is usually good in overtaking (also thanks to his car), it was really interesting to see, how much problems he had when passing in the final three races. making crashes, overtaking off-track.



Other drivers can see SV is special. Why else would Alonso feel the need to start a campaign demeaning another driver, one he couldn't beat on the track fair and square? Finding a mental weakness in Vettel was his only chance, and he knew it.

no one would deny that vettel is special, but so are at least 5-6 other drivers in this field. again, there was no solely alonso metal-games-campaign, both (alo and vet) have contributed to it.

i am starting to ask me the question how old you are? because you said, alonso couldnt beat vettel on track. he did that this year several time in a slower car and also in the past, and he will do it again in the future.
i also start to wonder, if you do realise, how much we can be thankful for alonso being that good in a mediocre car (or vettel not that good in a superior car) and so having us have a title battle till the end, and not having it being decided three-four races before.



I stated the truth, nothing more. Building yourself up by demeaning another driver, one you can't beat on the track, is pathetic.

cant see who that should be, because of the top drivers, everybody has already beaten the other. and if you talk about alo and vet both have demeaned (using your words) each other.



That is flat wrong as has been clearly documented in the media the last months. You are either being disengenous or don't know the facts

thats why it is true, because it was documented that both have contributed to the mind games.

Didn't I already explain this to you? Here it is again: In sports, when you are ahead with the championship on the line, the smart thing to do is to become more defensive, and run out the clock or in this case the number of laps before your opponent can catch up. Obviously Vettel did it to perfection as he won his 3rd WDC.

winning a title is not a proof for perfection as becoming 2nd is not equatable to losing.
e.g. vettel won despite making crashes and off-track overtaking, accusing others for his own mistakes (ricciardo in abu dhabi) etc. in the final races
alonso lost despite making the most podium finishes of the year, in a car that was not meant to fight for that title.

Really? Where you come from its normal for people to go around seriously saying they are a samurai? Here in Canada that makes you a grade "A" douche.

why should it be per se negative. generalisations are even in canada not something that adult persons use to badmouth a person.


LOL. Vettel is a three time WDC, youngest of all time, and has accomplished something only managed by two drivers, two of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport. Vettel's place amongst the legends of F1 is secure. He knows it, Marko knows it, and Alonso knows it. There is absolutely no need for Marko to pump up Vettel, nor does he.

sure he has a place amongst legends, as alonso, raikkonen, hamilton etc. also have.
but helmut marko is not a person who wants for vettel a place amongst legends, he wants him (at least as long he is driving for rb) to be seen as the greatest.
this season, although he won, hasnt contributed to that. what he did was legendary, but not above all the other legends.
something a lot of experst actually think about alonsos season (that it was something special in the history of this sport)
thats why marko had to do this, and through a small analysis was proven wrong.

Edited by ojebuje, 12 January 2013 - 12:50.


#259 Group B

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:53

SHIFT key is your friend :up:

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#260 Zava

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 13:03

which is a nonsense. webber was in at least 2 out of those 3 finale races at least ad fast as vettel, if not even faster (see qualy), despite driving a car, which RB admitted was made to fit vettel better. and massa matched alonso. again what is your point. And you said massa beated alonsos overall performances? well this is an interesting fairy tale, explain further :drunk:

uhm, maybe I don't remember well*, so please enlighten me: in which races were Webber as fast/faster than Vettel? in abu dhabi, where Vettel closed up on him after starting from the pits and having an unplanned stop, in austin where he was faster than Webber by 0.5 s/lap until Webber stopped, or in brazil where he was driving a car from the back of the field with big damage, and only finished behind Webber because he had a totally unnecessary pit stop for slicks, about 2 laps before everyone (including him) took the inters, (and one of these stops was real messy, they didn't even have the tyres out for him)?
so which (at least) 2 of these 3 races?


*I'm just kidding, of course I remember well

Edited by Zava, 12 January 2013 - 13:09.


#261 garoidb

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 13:06

Again, as it was unfair to only use Clark's and Moss' F1 careers to define them, IMO Senna vs MS WDCs is another unfair comparison. Senna died early, and I think it highly likely, as do most other people, that he would have won more WDCs. Maybe a lot more. So three isn't his "real" total WDCs when he is ranked.

That's why I rate Senna higher than Vettel at this time, regardless of what Ascanelli says. (Although Vettel may prove me wrong in the future.)


Like Senna, Clark and Moss also had premature ends to their careers, and so could potentially have achieved more. Vettel is young, though, and he will probably achieve more too.

#262 Winter98

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 18:48

i am starting to ask me the question how old you are? because you said, alonso couldnt beat vettel on track.


I'm guessing English is your second language? You clearly didn't understand what I said.

What I said was Alonso started the "I'm racing Newey" campaign because he knew he couldn't beat him for the WDC on the track. As it turned out, Alonso was correct and now lost the last three WDCs to Vettel.


becoming 2nd is not equatable to losing.


Um, finishing 2nd means you lost. The person who finished first won.

sure he has a place amongst legends, as alonso, raikkonen, hamilton etc. also have.


Alonso is well aware his historical status is currently a tier below Vettels. That's why he started the "I'm racing Newey" campaign.

but helmut marko is not a person who wants for vettel a place amongst legends, he wants him (at least as long he is driving for rb) to be seen as the greatest.


By becoming the youngest 3 time WDC, and getting WDCs on the trot, Vettel's place in F1 history is secure. Maybe you can't understand that, but Marko certainly does. If Vettel can win another 6 or 7 WDCs, then he may be regarded as the greatest of all time, otherwise he will be in the mix like a number of other drivers.


this season, although he won, hasnt contributed to that. what he did was legendary, but not above all the other legends.


When has Marko or Vettel ever said that Vettel is above all other legendary drivers? They haven't.

Again, you are being disingenous or you have no idea what you are talking about.

Let's make an agreement: If you can find an quote from Marko or Vettel where they say Vettel is better than any driver in the history of F1, I will make a sig honouring Alonso, and say he is the best driver on the grid. If you can't, you make a sig honouring Vettel, and say he is the best driver on the grid. Deal?


Edited by Winter98, 12 January 2013 - 18:56.


#263 Galko877

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 07:29

Although, to avoid going around in circles -- Winter98, do you believe Senna would switch his global reputation, as the greatest driver of all time, for Schumacher's 7 WDC if he was given the chance to do so?


Obviously none of us know what Senna would do, but if I was given the choice between Senna's and Schumacher's career, I'd take the latter.

#264 garoidb

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 10:14

Alonso is well aware his historical status is currently a tier below Vettels. That's why he started the "I'm racing Newey" campaign.

By becoming the youngest 3 time WDC, and getting WDCs on the trot, Vettel's place in F1 history is secure. Maybe you can't understand that, but Marko certainly does. If Vettel can win another 6 or 7 WDCs, then he may be regarded as the greatest of all time, otherwise he will be in the mix like a number of other drivers.


This could end up being the case, given that Vettel has so many future seasons in which to add more lustre to his career. I'm not convinced that he is there yet. Alonso and Vettel have duked it out for the 2010 and 2012 WDCs, with Vettel winning both at the last race. One or both of those could just as easily have swung the other way (and I know that doesn't count for anything statistically). I think they will probably be the principal contenders for another couple of WDCs before Alonso retires, so there is a chance for the pendulum to swing the other way.

As of right now, Vettel has won one more WDC but Alonso has driven a season for the ages this year, in a Ferrari, and such things are long remembered. The quality of Alosno's 2012 season, by the way, has been widely acknowledged by credible people and groups, so it is not refutable by internet posters.

#265 sanjiro

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 15:13

Marko has said worse about MW over the years and made his low opinion of MWs abilities known since winter 2008.
So... no surprise there.
BTW putting someone down publicly is NOT ever a good way to motivate them and anyone who claims it is...should not be in management.
HM is just laying the ground work for a mid year sacking.

To date he has treated DC worse than any other drive at RBR so he has a way to go before MW can take the mantle of "most disrespected by Marko"

As for the rest... who cares what management of one team says about drivers in another.
Defending SV...Marko CH DM and the rest should do it when ever they need to, I would expect nothing less.

Edited by sanjiro, 13 January 2013 - 15:13.


#266 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 22:40

The quality of Alosno's 2012 season, by the way, has been widely acknowledged by credible people and groups, so it is not refutable by internet posters.


Like all things, it might just get revisited. And, possibly, not for the better.

Some pundits felt Alonso waned at a time when the Ferrari was proving to be much faster than he (Alonso) was giving credit.

Brundle felt he looked tired on the podium at Abu Dhabi. A day later Pat Fry questioned his qualifying ability. Then Massa underlined/confirmed Alonso's lack-lustre qually form at the final two races.

Seems like Vettel's blistering pace in the first four end-of-season fly-aways rattled him psycologically and he resorted to "I'm fighting Newey..."

Perhaps Alonso didn't do all the Ferrari was capable of when Kimi beat him at Abu Dhabi?

Perhaps Massa could have beaten Button at Interlagos had the Brazilian been allowed to go Flat Out?

Perhaps if Alonso had been more carefull into T1 at Suzuka, he - and not Massa - would have been 2nd at the Japanese GP?

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 13 January 2013 - 22:43.


#267 Watkins74

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 22:52

^

Perhaps the world is flat. Perhaps.

#268 bourbon

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 01:24

As of right now, Vettel has won one more WDC but Alonso has driven a season for the ages this year, in a Ferrari, and such things are long remembered.


Nah. Alonso drove very well - very consistently over the season. But there was nothing of note - nothing at all memorable. What most people will long remember is that this is the season when a new youngest ever triple world champion was named.



#269 seahawk

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 06:57

Nah. Alonso drove very well - very consistently over the season. But there was nothing of note - nothing at all memorable. What most people will long remember is that this is the season when a new youngest ever triple world champion was named.


For your victories to be remembered you need to beat a worthy oppenent.

#270 Sakae

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 08:12

...As for the rest... who cares what management of one team says about drivers in another.
Defending SV...Marko CH DM and the rest should do it when ever they need to, I would expect nothing less.


Horner hasn't really engaged extensively in this discussion, thus someone on the management side ought to, IMO. After all, Whitmarsh has a microphone in his hands if not every week, than more than most of them, and LdM as well is not shy of dropping his comments in favor of his driver, thus no one should raise an eyebrow when RBR engages in the same paddock politics. Just imagine a hypothetical situation how respective team leaders would react had their "boy" just now won three WDC in a row, and someone has engaged in derisive language about it. Luckily this is now in the past, and soon a new testing commences, and with it, a new season, thus giving us chance to switch subjects.

#271 garoidb

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 08:28

Nah. Alonso drove very well - very consistently over the season. But there was nothing of note - nothing at all memorable. What most people will long remember is that this is the season when a new youngest ever triple world champion was named.


That too, but every credible commentator, who has a reputation to consider, has credited Alonso with a great season. The opinions of posters here is of no relevance to that.

#272 bourbon

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 09:00

For your victories to be remembered you need to beat a worthy oppenent.


Well there are lots of those. That is why these drivers are lucky to be in F1 - they always face a group of strong drivers in strong cars.

That too, but every credible commentator, who has a reputation to consider, has credited Alonso with a great season. The opinions of posters here is of no relevance to that.


Alonso and Raikkonen both had great seasons - few errors, podiums, some good make up drives and they bagged a lot of points.

However, what will be memorable from this season in the long run, is that Vettel, at 25 years old, became the youngest ever triple world champion - because that is, quite frankly, remarkable.

Marko is quite right from that perspective in terms of Vettel's achievements. Seb doesn't have to change teams, eschew Newey, seek an HRT drive, get his teammate fired or stand on his head while driving Spa in order to prove anything. He has already proven that he is a tremendous talent in his own right - cutting his own path in F1, just as other great talents before him did. Marko is spot on about that.

Edited by bourbon, 14 January 2013 - 09:34.


#273 seahawk

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 09:11

Well there are lots of those. That is why these drivers are lucky to be in F1 - they always face a group of strong drivers in strong cars.

Sure but imagine Vettel would won all his titles in 2011 style, I think they would be worth much less. Or Schumacher winning all his titles like in 2004, it would be different.

#274 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 09:45

IMO the Ferrari and McLaren were right there with the RBR on any given Sunday.

I'm just not buying all the politicing. I've read all the arguments on both sides, and that's my opinion, although it my differ from yours.


I'm not going to try to change your mind, but it should be said that it differs not only from the poster's you replied to, but also from the opinion of every single F1 journalist and team staff who voiced an opinion.

#275 Buttoneer

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 10:33

Please remember that this thread is to discuss Marko's comments, and is not an Alonso v Vettel battleground.

#276 Juan Kerr

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 10:57

I think it's not a case of anyone particularly saying that Vettel is rubbish it is a case of how drivers so often get called the mesiah when their car is working great. Let's take this back to Australia, Malaysia and China let's say we've just witnessed those three races, it's far more likely Vettel would be talked about as an average champion. It shouldn't make any difference, a driver is a driver and if Lewis hadn't broken down so much or those safety cars come out in those two races that helped him so much Vettel wouldn't be talked about in such a way then either. He is either one thing or another the discussions shouldn't change based on circumstances.

#277 seahawk

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 11:06

I think it's not a case of anyone particularly saying that Vettel is rubbish it is a case of how drivers so often get called the mesiah when their car is working great. Let's take this back to Australia, Malaysia and China let's say we've just witnessed those three races, it's far more likely Vettel would be talked about as an average champion. It shouldn't make any difference, a driver is a driver and if Lewis hadn't broken down so much or those safety cars come out in those two races that helped him so much Vettel wouldn't be talked about in such a way then either. He is either one thing or another the discussions shouldn't change based on circumstances.

And if Vettel´s alternator would have held together, or if Crashjean would not have taken out Alonso in Spa, or if the Mercedes would have been fast Schumacher might have...

#278 Juan Kerr

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 11:09

And if Vettel´s alternator would have held together, or if Crashjean would not have taken out Alonso in Spa, or if the Mercedes would have been fast Schumacher might have...

Precisely so if the circumstances played out to Vettel's favor then hopefully finally people will realise that they only have this kind of praise for drivers when things go their way. Whoever won this year was always going to be treated like a god to those 'believers'

#279 mnmracer

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 11:13

Precisely so if the circumstances played out to Vettel's favor then hopefully finally people will realise that they only have this kind of praise for drivers when things go their way. Whoever won this year was always going to be treated like a god to those 'believers'

You obviously didn't get his comment.
Things played out way by far the most for Räikkönen and Alonso, and the least for Vettel, Webber and Hamilton (by a land slide).

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#280 bub

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 11:44

Precisely so if the circumstances played out to Vettel's favor then hopefully finally people will realise that they only have this kind of praise for drivers when things go their way. Whoever won this year was always going to be treated like a god to those 'believers'


Good point. Vettel deserved his title last year but I don't think he drove better than everyone else like some are suggesting. I think he was on par with guys like Alonso and Hamilton. Vettel had the best overall combination of driving, team, car performance and circumstances as you always need to win. Sometimes one guy is the clear, stand-out best driver but that wasn't the case in 2012 imo and that isn't to take anything away from the top 3, it's because they're all great and they all really performed last year.

#281 Winter98

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 13:50

I'm not going to try to change your mind, but it should be said that it differs not only from the poster's you replied to, but also from the opinion of every single F1 journalist and team staff who voiced an opinion.


Personally I have little doubt that if Vettel was British, the journos, especially the British journos, would be singing an entirely different tune.

And I have little doubt that if it was Ferrari or Williams who had just won 3 WDCs and WCCs on the trot, instead of the new kids on the block, and a fizzy drink company at that, we would be hearing an entirely different tune from the team bosses.

Just my opinion.

Edited by Winter98, 14 January 2013 - 13:51.


#282 Winter98

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 13:57

Precisely so if the circumstances played out to Vettel's favor then hopefully finally people will realise that they only have this kind of praise for drivers when things go their way. Whoever won this year was always going to be treated like a god to those 'believers'


Circumstances have played out for all the greats. Otherwise they would have zero WDCs, and not be considered great. (Excepting those who died on the track, and get the benefit of "What If").

Edited by Winter98, 14 January 2013 - 13:58.


#283 Juan Kerr

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 14:06

Good point. Vettel deserved his title last year but I don't think he drove better than everyone else like some are suggesting. I think he was on par with guys like Alonso and Hamilton. Vettel had the best overall combination of driving, team, car performance and circumstances as you always need to win. Sometimes one guy is the clear, stand-out best driver but that wasn't the case in 2012 imo and that isn't to take anything away from the top 3, it's because they're all great and they all really performed last year.


Exactly. Very rarely do I support British drivers but the fastest guy on the grid is Hamilton, Alonso is very psychologically strong and extremely determined with good speed and good experience, Vettel is a fast driver like Raikkonen, Button, Massa, just not the best that's all.

#284 seahawk

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 14:12

Exactly. Very rarely do I support British drivers but the fastest guy on the grid is Hamilton, Alonso is very psychologically strong and extremely determined with good speed and good experience, Vettel is a fast driver like Raikkonen, Button, Massa, just not the best that's all.


Seriously? If you really believe this, than I must say that both Alonso andHamilton are the greatest losers in F1 history.

#285 Winter98

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 14:51

Exactly. Very rarely do I support British drivers but the fastest guy on the grid is Hamilton, Alonso is very psychologically strong and extremely determined with good speed and good experience, Vettel is a fast driver like Raikkonen, Button, Massa, just not the best that's all.


So, we can see why RBR thought it important to tell their side of the story.

#286 Sakae

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 16:11

Exactly. Very rarely do I support British drivers but the fastest guy on the grid is Hamilton...

I doubt that. He is creating impression of a fastest driver on the grid, but we cannot ignore that fact that McLaren was a fastest car on the grid by a significant margin, and that's not only in top straight line speed. Until I see Vettel in the same car, I have difficulties to accept any such claims about Hamilton. We haven't seen Marko addressing this in his criticism, but I think AN had, at least on one occassion, if my memory serves me well.

Edited by Sakae, 14 January 2013 - 16:15.


#287 Kingshark

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 19:25

You obviously didn't get his comment.
Things played out way by far the most for Räikkönen and Alonso, and the least for Vettel, Webber and Hamilton (by a land slide).

According to you, it's all lucky to have a car which is clearly slower than the front two runners, and not developing at any impressive rate. :drunk:

From the top 6 runners, Raikkonen and Alonso were by far the two least fortunate of the 2012 championship, only beaten by Hamilton. That is of course, if you have a rational understanding of what fortune actually means.

#288 Winter98

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 19:35

That is of course, if you have a rational understanding of what fortune actually means.


Pffft. Obviously.

Bad fortune is when anything goes wrong for my favourite driver.

Good fortune is when anything goes right for others.

(Joking Kingshark, and not accusing you of doing this. Just couldn't resist. Have a good one. :) )

Edited by Winter98, 14 January 2013 - 19:36.


#289 Kingshark

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 19:48

I blame Vettel for the fact that he didn't build a better alternator in Valencia. :p

Regarding Marko's hit out on Vettel criticism, I'm not surprised that.

Well, for one it must be annoying to constantly hear about how your favorite driver is average despite having won as many championships as Senna, Lauda and Stewart did.

Secondly;

Image

There's lot's of :love: and :kiss: between the two.

Edited by Kingshark, 14 January 2013 - 19:52.


#290 Crossmax

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 19:52

Exactly. Very rarely do I support British drivers but the fastest guy on the grid is Hamilton, Alonso is very psychologically strong and extremely determined with good speed and good experience, Vettel is a fast driver like Raikkonen, Button, Massa, just not the best that's all.

Unlike Vettel, who does his talking on the track, Alonso seems to be playing mind games as soon as there is a microphone/recorder around. If by psychologically strong you mean good at mind games, then I agree with you. If you mean strong mentality, I would rate Vettel above Alonso.

#291 Juan Kerr

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 21:55

Unlike Vettel, who does his talking on the track, Alonso seems to be playing mind games as soon as there is a microphone/recorder around. If by psychologically strong you mean good at mind games, then I agree with you. If you mean strong mentality, I would rate Vettel above Alonso.

Absolutely not look at the mess Vettel got himself in at the last race, a rookie mistake that, he did everything to mess up his championship and by pure good fortune his car held intact and the safety cars allowed him to pick up so much track distance. He turned right over the top of Senna, there was bound to be someone there he carried way to much speed into that corner as he tightened up. How anyone can say Vettel is mentally stronger than Alonso is just trigger happy and brainless. I can't stand Alonso but I know someone's qualities when I see them. Hamilton made some errors in his rookie year at the end but to be fair it was only a bad decision about tyres and a car failure it wasn't just slammin across the track right in the middle of the pack at normal racing speed.

#292 Juan Kerr

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 21:57

Vettel will never win in a car that is not the fastest, Alonso and Hamilton can, Schumacher could and Raikkonen can.

#293 Skinnyguy

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 22:02

Unlike Vettel, who does his talking on the track, Alonso seems to be playing mind games as soon as there is a microphone/recorder around. If by psychologically strong you mean good at mind games, then I agree with you. If you mean strong mentality, I would rate Vettel above Alonso.


Absolutely. Add that Vettel doesn´t seem to need or appreciate praise/hype at all, while Alonso/Hamilton actively look for it and enjoy it. Mentally strong people don´t care about that stuff.

#294 Crossmax

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 22:06

I can't stand Alonso but I know someone's qualities when I see them.

Clearly you can stand Vettel even less. How do you explain Alonso being out-performed by Massa since Korea more or less? Vettel has kept it together during two championships that went down to the wire. I would much rather have his mental strength than Alonso's.

Edited by Crossmax, 14 January 2013 - 22:08.


#295 mattferg

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 22:16

Vettel will never win in a car that is not the fastest, Alonso and Hamilton can, Schumacher could and Raikkonen can.


I'm sorry, what do you mean by "win in a car that is not the fastest" as the RB8 wasn't the fastest car this year. It was best, but not fastest. But even if you mean best, you're still wrong. Do you mean win a race in not the best car? As Vettel's done that, Monza 2008.

Do you mean win a WDC? The only person this century who can claim to do that is Kimi, but that's more because Alonso and Hamilton clearly had the best car and both managed to lose the WDC. Renault 2005 and 2006 and McLaren 2008 were the best cars, as shown by the double for Renault, and the fact Hamilton still won after so many mistakes, the only reason they lost the WCC were his mistakes and Kovalienen underperforming.

#296 aditya-now

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 23:15

No mate - instead of sitting around with the Red Bull PR machine figuring out ways to make a world championship winning team look like the Clampets - he's out there as an individual doing great things for lost friends and charities close to people's hearts.

http://www.thesun.co...ute-to-Dan.html

Amazing that in the same week a corporate giant dedicated itself to being so small minded, whilst they guy they're gutting proves what he's like away from the track. A true comparison of the 2.

I'd be embarrassed to be a Red Bull employee this week. Being forced to watch the depths to which Red Bull management will stoop.


Top post.

Indeed Mark shows who he is, and Red Bull have shown who they are.


#297 fabr68

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 04:54

I wonder if Vettel will ever address other driver's "political" comments on his own. It seems that Marko always has to come out to speak for him.

You have to give credit to drivers like Alonso and Hamilton for that. They may not always say the right thing, but at least they do their own trash-talking.

#298 BackOnTop

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 14:51

I wonder if Vettel will ever address other driver's "political" comments on his own. It seems that Marko always has to come out to speak for him.

You have to give credit to drivers like Alonso and Hamilton for that. They may not always say the right thing, but at least they do their own trash-talking.

Maybe Vettel prefers to create history, win races, win Championships & reward his employers with Constructors Championship instead of Thrash-Talking!!

Vettel seems to be smart enough to let jokers make a fool of themselves. Thats a great start for the youngest triple world champion right there. Maybe Vettel doesn't like to get involved with Girlie-Dramas & Gossip Making.

#299 Winter98

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 15:06

+1 :up: This is what Marko meant by politics and funny comments instead of focusing on the job at hand.


Agreed.

If Alonso had spent more time focusing on driving and race strategy, and less time on strategies to demean an opponent, perhaps he would have found those four points he so desperately needed.



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#300 apoka

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 17:08

What I find amusing about the Vettel & Alonso 2012 comparisons, is that both drivers offered very little to criticise if you look at the season as a whole. There are probably 20 drivers on the grid for whom it is easier to spot weaknesses (if that is the purpose of this exercise).

On topic: Ignoring the Webber part, I think Marko has a point by saying that some of the criticism towards Vettel is nonsense or part of psychological games, including some of the things Hamilton (can miss 4 apexes, luckiest driver) and Alonso (100% sure to win the title, Vettel can only win in the best car, fighting Newey) said. That has a negative effect on Vettel's reputation, but whether this effect will remain in the long term is a different matter. It could be that Vettel's approach to focus only on racing and not really joining the verbal fight is best in the long run (or may already have been better in 2010-2012). What Marko says is essentially just some counterbalance of what we hear from McLaren/Ferrari throughout the season.