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Marko hits out at Vettel Critics [split]


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#351 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 22:13

Vettel is much of an asshat as anyone in the heat of the moment: gesturing after an incident, giving the finger, throwing gloves, talking too much in interviews right after the action...

But Vettel won´t keep the crap comming in a sofa at 60 BPM surrounded by journos.


No, he sends his lap dog. But whatever, if we can agree that these are all young men under a lot of pressure (and seeing them cope and grow IMHO is a large part of the fascination), and neither is a saint nor a devil, then I guess I am happy.

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#352 leojagpreet

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 22:15

He got his degree in a law in 1967, in parallel to or slightly before his racing career. I don't particularly like Marko, but anyone lol'ing about him should look up his CV on Wikipedia, that's no CV to lol at.


I already respect Marko to find a talent like Vettel...


#353 Skinnyguy

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 22:20

No, he sends his lap dog.


What are you talking about? He has refused to comment anything even after poke statements from rivals. That´s all he can do. If someone in his camp can´t do the same, you can´t blame Vettel and pretend to make sense. :lol: That´s like blaming Alonso for Montezemolo being a first class idiot: nonsense.

Of course there´s no saints or devils, but openly talking about the difference in the personalities of them does not harm: Vettel is just not political, he just doesn´t care about other´s opinions and don´t try to alter them either, while Alonso does. There´s no spinning that, and none of these is a better thing, I´m just saying I like much better the shut up and drive kind of.

#354 PoleMan

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 22:47

Absolutely. It's quite obvious that he always tended to translate from his native Spanish to English (more so in the past than nowadays, but still), instead of using native English idioms, which of course distorts meaning and shown intent. I always found it obvious, and more so now after having studied Spanish myself for a while. The fact that this was always ignored when interpreting his words used to make me very angry (in fact I once canceled an Autosport subscription over this once), but I guess I've got used to it not only to the poit of not caring much, but not even noticing anymore. Thanks for pointing it out.

:up: :up:

#355 aditya-now

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 22:58

He got his degree in a law in 1967, in parallel to or slightly before his racing career. I don't particularly like Marko, but anyone lol'ing about him should look up his CV on Wikipedia, that's no CV to lol at.


Dr.Marko on losing his eye, Felipe Massa's accident and Henry Surtees' crash - OT, I hope it will be accepted - just to show another side of Dr.Helmut Marko who gets bashed a lot, sometimes deservedly so. I have been a guest in his Schloßberghotel in Graz many times and just wanted to add this to KnucklesAgain view.

Interesting how the 2013 season is already heating up between Alonso and the Red Bull team - before the season - somehow 2012 is not over yet or 2013 has already started. Amazing - cannot remember another change from one season to the other like this.

Edited by aditya-now, 17 January 2013 - 22:59.


#356 Ian G

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 23:05

Interesting how the 2013 season is already heating up between Alonso and the Red Bull team - before the season - somehow 2012 is not over yet or 2013 has already started. Amazing - cannot remember another change from one season to the other like this.


Yeah,there has been some sort of major drama between Ferrari & Red Bull,i guess we will find out what happened somewhere during the 2013 season but it looks like the competitive respect they had for each other is gone.

#357 aditya-now

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 23:54

Yeah,there has been some sort of major drama between Ferrari & Red Bull,i guess we will find out what happened somewhere during the 2013 season but it looks like the competitive respect they had for each other is gone.


Indeed - the only change from season to season close but not quite like this was in 1988 to 1989, but even then it was a longer break and no continous two season, 39 race super season.

What Dr.Helmut Marko was capable of is well documented here - if anyone cares for some "real racing" back in the day....


#358 bourbon

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:47

"But as for strongest opponent, who is strongest driver? My answer is Hamilton. It was true last year, it was true this year.

"The strongest driver? It is a personal opinion, not political, not to make people think something. Who is the strongest opponent, the strongest driver on grid? Who is the one you have to keep an eye on? It is Hamilton - and it will still be Hamilton next year."


When asked why he did not think Vettel was the strongest driver after winning a third consecutive driver's championship, Alonso said: "I am not saying he is not the strongest driver.


who is strongest driver? My answer is Hamilton


Vettel... I am not saying he is not the strongest driver


Marko chose to label him a Political mind gamer. It is certainly the least offensive of those things you might call a person who so blatantly contradicts himself.

Edited by bourbon, 18 January 2013 - 05:52.


#359 britishtrident

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:17

Marko an asset to Red Bull ? Not!

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#360 icewest07

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:12

Marko chose to label him a Political mind gamer. It is certainly the least offensive of those things you might call a person who so blatantly contradicts himself.


You could not have demonstrate it better.

Alonso is really laughable with his political mind games, and just shows how insecure he is :rolleyes:

#361 robefc

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:44

You could not have demonstrate it better.

Alonso is really laughable with his political mind games, and just shows how insecure he is :rolleyes:


To be honest I'm not sure I buy the political line, I'm not convinced Alonso thinks saying hamilton is stronger than vettel is going to having any effect on vettel's performances...and if he did previously then you'd think he'd have changed his mind.

It seems likely to me that alonso considers himself the best driver and knows how Lewis stacked up against him (ignore the points and whether it was a draw or Lewis won, I mean seeing how he stacked up in practice, quali, races, testing, everday etc).

Might be a bit of ego in it too (bigging up the teammate that matched him) but I associate that sort of insecurity more with Lewis tbh.

I also think Vettel's attitude of being humble, pointing out he's a member of the team and diplomatically responding when asked about alonso or lewis's comments is a lot more powerful than Marko speaking out in this fashion.

#362 icewest07

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:52

To be honest I'm not sure I buy the political line, I'm not convinced Alonso thinks saying hamilton is stronger than vettel is going to having any effect on vettel's performances...and if he did previously then you'd think he'd have changed his mind.

It seems likely to me that alonso considers himself the best driver and knows how Lewis stacked up against him (ignore the points and whether it was a draw or Lewis won, I mean seeing how he stacked up in practice, quali, races, testing, everday etc).

Might be a bit of ego in it too (bigging up the teammate that matched him) but I associate that sort of insecurity more with Lewis tbh.

I also think Vettel's attitude of being humble, pointing out he's a member of the team and diplomatically responding when asked about alonso or lewis's comments is a lot more powerful than Marko speaking out in this fashion.


You may wanna read my first comment on this matter (hint : last post, page 8)
We are saying the exact same thing here

Edited by icewest07, 18 January 2013 - 11:52.


#363 fabr68

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:59

Marko chose to label him a Political mind gamer. It is certainly the least offensive of those things you might call a person who so blatantly contradicts himself.


I think too much is being read into Alonso's comments. He is not saying that he thinks a backmarker is the strongest driver. He is naming Hamilton who many rate him the same way Alonso does.

Just because he did not say Vettel it does not put him on the wrong.

#364 robefc

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 13:15

You may wanna read my first comment on this matter (hint : last post, page 8)
We are saying the exact same thing here


The thread is only 4 pages long on my settings!

#365 mnmracer

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 13:16

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=6096841

#366 icewest07

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 13:17

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=6096841


Thanks mate :up:

#367 robefc

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 13:23

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=6096841


Thanks.

icewest - you appear to be saying a) he is political and b) he's bigging himself up by bigging lewis up.

The first point I am disagreeing with in my post and the latter is not the main thrust of my post.

#368 icewest07

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 14:30

Thanks.

icewest - you appear to be saying a) he is political and b) he's bigging himself up by bigging lewis up.

The first point I am disagreeing with in my post and the latter is not the main thrust of my post.


OK my bad, we are not saying the same "exact" thing then.

I am sticking to my point which are "a" and "b" as you stated :smoking:

#369 BillBald

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 02:43

what is this myth I see everywhere about mclaren? Hamilton had 2 race ending problems (singapore, abu dhabi), and a not race ending, but big problem (korea). same for Vettel bar the not race ending one. Button had 2 DNFs (monza, bahrain) but the bahrain one was from the last laps after a puncture (?) putting him out of the top10, maybe that was gearbox saving, Webber had 1 race ending DNF (austin) and a big problem in valencia quali (no DRS, out in q1) I fail to see the big difference here. maybe people exaggerate this point because Hamilton lost a bunch of points and the chance to compete for the WDC, but no, mech problems were not the main part of the points loss, it was about equal with bad luck (germany, valencia, brasil) and then there was incompetence from the team as well (pit stops, barcelona quali, etc) so no, reliability isn't what lost Hamilton the (chance to compete for the) WDC. the actual WDC had about as much problems, although lost a good 20 poins less from those than Hamilton.


I'm not sure why it makes a difference whether the McLaren car was less reliable than the Red Bull, or the McLaren team operation was less competent. Either way, they gave Vettel an easier run than they should have done.

And it's not just about McLaren being incompetent, they were also uninspired.

A good comparison would be Spain vs Abu Dhabi. In both cases a car was sent to the back of the grid, but Red Bull were able to come up with a strategy to minimise the loss of points, one that McLaren would never have imagined.

Or take Vettel's quali problems in Monaco. Normally that would be a pretty dire situation, resulting in scoring very few points, but again Red Bull had the strategy he needed.

And even when Red Bull couldn't think of a strategy, as in Hungary, it seems they only needed to wait for McLaren to mess up.




#370 boldhakka

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 03:04

To be honest I'm not sure I buy the political line.


You have to ask why Alonso keeps bringing this up, or answers in this specific manner when asked the question. I don't think any other driver in the last decade has done such driver comparisons as directly as Alonso has, even when asked. :D

I also think that he has realized that for his legacy to last, it is better if it is remembered in the context of a fierce rivalry.

#371 Fontainebleau

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 09:11

This comment by Alonso is a reply to a direct question from the journalists.

I continuously hear people asking F1 drivers to be less of a PR robot and more open and direct, yet when one of them decides to give his opinion on a certain subject he is endlessly criticised... go figure.

I think that it is perfectly possible that Alonso thinks Hamilton is his strongest rival; I think that a number of F1 pundits and followers agree with him, so his opinion is far from outrageous. Other people will have a different opinion (I wonder if these are equally criticised for playing mind games), and they are entitled to it too.

And finally, I think that some people are too keen on finding a hidden agenda in everything - I can only hope they don't do the same in their everyday life, it would be too stressful! ;)

Edited by Fontainebleau, 20 January 2013 - 09:13.


#372 boldhakka

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 09:25

Other people will have a different opinion (I wonder if these are equally criticised for playing mind games), and they are entitled to it too.


By "other people", do you mean drivers? I'd love to see some examples of drivers other than Fernando who have spoken like this in the last decade - I.e making direct allusions to his "strongest" opponent by name or, of course, using the appropriate synonyms for "strongest". More than once.

Journalists ask him that question because lately he's been going on about it and he's the only driver who is keen to do so, obviously.

And there is nothing wrong with playing mind games, you're the one imagining that anyone talking about It always means it in a critical sense.

Edited by boldhakka, 20 January 2013 - 09:29.


#373 Skinnyguy

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 12:23

By "other people", do you mean drivers? I'd love to see some examples of drivers other than Fernando who have spoken like this in the last decade - I.e making direct allusions to his "strongest" opponent by name or, of course, using the appropriate synonyms for "strongest". More than once.


And constantly change his mind about it too, and always to downplay his closest rival.

#374 fabr68

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 12:43

You have to ask why Alonso keeps bringing this up, or answers in this specific manner when asked the question. I don't think any other driver in the last decade has done such driver comparisons as directly as Alonso has, even when asked. :D

I also think that he has realized that for his legacy to last, it is better if it is remembered in the context of a fierce rivalry.


Drivers get asked about their opponents all the time.

The problem is Alonso did not say Raikkonen or Vettel. Therefore he is labeled as political.

#375 Winter98

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 13:50

Drivers get asked about their opponents all the time.

The problem is Alonso did not say Raikkonen or Vettel. Therefore he is labeled as political.


No, Alonso bigged himself up, and demeaned Vettel, by saying he was racing Newey. That's why I label his comments as political.

Edited by Winter98, 20 January 2013 - 14:01.


#376 aditya-now

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 13:51

And constantly change his mind about it too, and always to downplay his closest rival.


I think that Fernando has been quite consistent in saying that Lewis is the strongest driver. He even goes to the length of saying that he did not say, Vettel was not the strongest (also of course he regards Lewis to be the strongest, and he has some first hand experience of that) - thus he makes it clear that with that he did not want to criticise Vettel.

So it's up to Helmut Marko to make politics towards Alonso, being published in the house magazine of Red Bull. I got the January issue of the Red Bulletin now in print form, it is quite a nice interview but of course you have some vintage "Markoisms" in there....

Among other topics he clarifies in this interview how the "Dr." in his name got stuck with him:"While I was still active in racing I finished my study of law. That was rather unusual, and I think the media liked it to mention a "Dr.Marko" on the starting grid. There haven't been that many doctors among the Le Mans and Formula 1 drivers in that day. After that, the Dr. remained as a token or replacement of my first name. Everyone around knows the "doctor" and knows that he is not a physician."


#377 Winter98

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 13:56

And finally, I think that some people are too keen on finding a hidden agenda in everything...


Well, when a driver who can't win on the track goes around bigging himself up, and demeaning another driver, by saying he is racing an engineer it is perfectly fair to look for hidden agendas in what he says.

#378 aditya-now

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 13:59

Well, when a driver who can't win on the track goes around bigging himself up, and demeaning another driver, by saying he is racing an engineer it is perfectly fair to look for hidden agendas in what he says.


....although it might be a fact that the engineer is doing a big part for the success of a driver?


#379 Winter98

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 14:05

....although it might be a fact that the engineer is doing a big part for the success of a driver?


Isn't that the case for virtually every driver since the inception of F1?

Edited by Winter98, 20 January 2013 - 14:06.


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#380 boldhakka

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 15:31

....although it might be a fact that the engineer is doing a big part for the success of a driver?


Alonso has also revised reality in his own head to fit his perspective. This is what he claims (speaking about Vettel)

"In 2011, there was a fantastic performance from him. It is true the car was much in front of everybody, they [Red Bull] were first and second consistently, and when the car is good you tend to relax in some races.


He should go back and count the number of one-twos that the RBR had in 2011. Why did he find the need to massage the truth?

#381 fabr68

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 17:55

No, Alonso bigged himself up, and demeaned Vettel, by saying he was racing Newey. That's why I label his comments as political.


He never said that as explained here

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=6096928

The real problem is some Vettel followers who cannot stand anyone who does not name Vettel as the best driver of the grid.

#382 Kingshark

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 18:06

No, Alonso bigged himself up, and demeaned Vettel, by saying he was racing Newey. That's why I label his comments as political.

He said We (Ferrari) are fighting Newey when Vettel cruzed to three easy wins in a row in Japan, Korea and India. In the sense that Ferrari need to catch up to Red Bull in the development race, for him to stand a legitimate chance.

He's absolutely right too. How is he suppose to fight a driver that was driving a car so much faster than him throughout those 3 races, along with the vast majority of the season?

Alonso just stated the truth, along with what the vast majority of the people on these forums agree with. He should be free to speak his mind and not suck up to the fans and make generic PR comments.

Edited by Kingshark, 20 January 2013 - 18:10.


#383 BoschKurve

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 20:12

He said We (Ferrari) are fighting Newey when Vettel cruzed to three easy wins in a row in Japan, Korea and India. In the sense that Ferrari need to catch up to Red Bull in the development race, for him to stand a legitimate chance.

He's absolutely right too. How is he suppose to fight a driver that was driving a car so much faster than him throughout those 3 races, along with the vast majority of the season?

Alonso just stated the truth, along with what the vast majority of the people on these forums agree with. He should be free to speak his mind and not suck up to the fans and make generic PR comments.


My sentiments exactly.

Truth is Alonso and Ferrari are fighting against Newey because Newey has been able to develop a car that caters to Vettel's strengths. It's not a bash on Vettel, it's a reality that is lost on most of the people who want to think the only thing capable of creating success for the Red Bull-Renault is Vettel himself. He's a factor obviously, but if the package wasn't as good as it is, he doesn't have 3 WDC's in a row.

#384 mnmracer

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 20:51

My sentiments exactly.

Truth is Alonso and Ferrari are fighting against Newey because Newey has been able to develop a car that caters to Vettel's strengths. It's not a bash on Vettel, it's a reality that is lost on most of the people who want to think the only thing capable of creating success for the Red Bull-Renault is Vettel himself. He's a factor obviously, but if the package wasn't as good as it is, he doesn't have 3 WDC's in a row.

You'll find more people shouting from the rooftops that it's all Alonso, than those saying it's all Vettel.
Alonso is just as much part of the complete package as Vettel, but if we are to believe a very vocal group here, it is just Alonso vs Newey.
Create a better world, start with yourself.

#385 BoschKurve

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 20:55

You'll find more people shouting from the rooftops that it's all Alonso, than those saying it's all Vettel.
Alonso is just as much part of the complete package as Vettel, but if we are to believe a very vocal group here, it is just Alonso vs Newey.
Create a better world, start with yourself.


If you don't think Newey plays a huge role in this, there's not really much that can be said to change your mind.

Fact is, Newey matters significantly in developing a car package that caters to Vettel's strengths and there is nothing wrong with that. It's also very difficult to do it, so Newey does factor in quite a bit. No other team has been able to develop a car the way Newey has.

#386 mnmracer

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 21:05

If you don't think Newey plays a huge role in this, there's not really much that can be said to change your mind.

Fact is, Newey matters significantly in developing a car package that caters to Vettel's strengths and there is nothing wrong with that. It's also very difficult to do it, so Newey does factor in quite a bit. No other team has been able to develop a car the way Newey has.

Thank you for proving my point.
It's Newey who helps Vettel, and Alonso who does it all by himself.

#387 PoleMan

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 21:40

Thank you for proving my point.
It's Newey who helps Vettel, and Alonso who does it all by himself.

That seems to be what most observers think over the past 3 years, and the WCC's seem to support it. Not that Vettel isn't an amazing driver (HE CLEARLY IS!)...just that, THANKS TO NEWEY, he has had --by and large -- the best/fastest car over the past 3 years. No one believes that's been the case for Alonso, who has battled for 2nd place deep into the season in all 3 of those years in cars that finished 3rd, 3rd and *2nd* in the WCC. (The asterisk is for the fact that McLaren would/should have been second in 2012 if Hulk hadn't taken out Lewis in Brazil).

Newey may be the best designer who's EVER worked in F1. Certainly the most successful, having hoisted so many championship trophies for so many different constructors. Not sure why you seem to sell him short in trying to defend Vettel's abilities. If Alonso belittled Newey's talent, you'd probably be the first person to start a thread about it! :lol:

Edited by PoleMan, 20 January 2013 - 21:43.


#388 BoschKurve

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 21:55

Thank you for proving my point.
It's Newey who helps Vettel, and Alonso who does it all by himself.


Don't insult me by putting words in my mouth that I never said.

Point to where I even stated that Alonso "does it all by himself". You'll be looking for awhile as I never said such a thing.

#389 mnmracer

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 22:30

Don't insult me by putting words in my mouth that I never said.

Point to where I even stated that Alonso "does it all by himself". You'll be looking for awhile as I never said such a thing.

I am making the point that both don't do it on their own, and your only reply is "look at what Newey does for Vettel".
You don't even bother with a little line like 'compare that to what Ferrari does to Alonso', no, your only focus is Newey.
How much more obvious can you be?

Edited by mnmracer, 20 January 2013 - 22:31.


#390 BoschKurve

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 22:36

I am making the point that both don't do it on their own, and your only reply is "look at what Newey does for Vettel".
You don't even bother with a little line like 'compare that to what Ferrari does to Alonso', no, your only focus is Newey.
How much more obvious can you be?


I was discussing the validity of Alonso's claim that they are fighting against Vettel. Sadly, this has flown over your head as you are trying to turn this into something else that I never brought up.

Had I said something like, "Alonso does everything on his own." then you would actually have a point to be made. But, as seeing I never said such a thing, you're grasping for straws. If you want to bring up other people making those claims, have at it, but don't try and put words in my mouth to further your agenda of defending Vettel.

#391 mnmracer

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 22:37

That seems to be what most observers think over the past 3 years, and the WCC's seem to support it. Not that Vettel isn't an amazing driver (HE CLEARLY IS!)...just that, THANKS TO NEWEY, he has had --by and large -- the best/fastest car over the past 3 years. No one believes that's been the case for Alonso, who has battled for 2nd place deep into the season in all 3 of those years in cars that finished 3rd, 3rd and *2nd* in the WCC. (The asterisk is for the fact that McLaren would/should have been second in 2012 if Hulk hadn't taken out Lewis in Brazil).

Newey may be the best designer who's EVER worked in F1. Certainly the most successful, having hoisted so many championship trophies for so many different constructors. Not sure why you seem to sell him short in trying to defend Vettel's abilities. If Alonso belittled Newey's talent, you'd probably be the first person to start a thread about it! :lol:

So every thing Newey touches turns gold? He's never produced a non-championship winning car? 1994, 1995, 2000-2009 never happened?
By the same virtue, how bad is Alonso that he can not win the championship with the most successful team in history?
How simple can someone be...

#392 bourbon

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 22:41

That seems to be what most observers think over the past 3 years, and the WCC's seem to support it. Not that Vettel isn't an amazing driver (HE CLEARLY IS!)...just that, THANKS TO NEWEY, he has had --by and large -- the best/fastest car over the past 3 years. No one believes that's been the case for Alonso, who has battled for 2nd place deep into the season in all 3 of those years in cars that finished 3rd, 3rd and *2nd* in the WCC. (The asterisk is for the fact that McLaren would/should have been second in 2012 if Hulk hadn't taken out Lewis in Brazil).


Due to Massa's results; if he had merely produced an average drive, they would have challenged for 1st in each of those years.

Most observers do not think what you propose at all. I do not know why you feel you can speak for most observers. There are millions of fans and tons more in the paddock, the several vocal fans here are not representative.

Newey may be the best designer who's EVER worked in F1. Certainly the most successful, having hoisted so many championship trophies for so many different constructors. Not sure why you seem to sell him short in trying to defend Vettel's abilities. If Alonso belittled Newey's talent, you'd probably be the first person to start a thread about it! :lol:


Well Newey was among the greatest, but you are discounting a lot of great men with that statement.

To the extent Alonso was attempting to demean Vettel (and/or Mark) with his many statements regarding Newey and the success of the RBR, he would be playing mind games, imo. Like Marko, I tend to beleive he was. But since Vettel ignored them, the only fall out appeared to be some upset people at Marenello.

#393 mnmracer

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 22:43

I was discussing the validity of Alonso's claim that they are fighting against Vettel. Sadly, this has flown over your head as you are trying to turn this into something else that I never brought up.

Had I said something like, "Alonso does everything on his own." then you would actually have a point to be made. But, as seeing I never said such a thing, you're grasping for straws. If you want to bring up other people making those claims, have at it, but don't try and put words in my mouth to further your agenda of defending Vettel.

You said and I quote:
"He's a factor obviously, but if the package wasn't as good as it is, he doesn't have 3 WDC's in a row."

You choose to only say that about Vettel. In your whole rant, where you're burning people for god forbit, putting Vettel in the same league as Alonso, you choose to say if the package wasn't as good as it is, Vettel wouldn't be 3xWDC. Unless you're really bad at context, you are saying that Vettel's 3xWDC is thanks to the package, while Alonso's results are not thanks to the package.

You are argueing against me, who said both would not fight for the title with a bad package.
Why would you argue against me, if you don't disagree?
Why would you argue against me if you don't think that Alonso does it all on his own?

Edited by mnmracer, 20 January 2013 - 22:45.


#394 BoschKurve

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 22:54

You said and I quote:
"He's a factor obviously, but if the package wasn't as good as it is, he doesn't have 3 WDC's in a row."

You choose to only say that about Vettel. In your whole rant, where you're burning people for god forbit, putting Vettel in the same league as Alonso, you choose to say if the package wasn't as good as it is, Vettel wouldn't be 3xWDC. Unless you're really bad at context, you are saying that Vettel's 3xWDC is thanks to the package, while Alonso's results are not thanks to the package.

You are argueing against me, who said both would not fight for the title with a bad package.
Why would you argue against me, if you don't disagree?
Why would you argue against me if you don't think that Alonso does it all on his own?


Again, you are simply making things up that I never said. Keep going with your straw man arguments.

#395 mnmracer

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 23:01

Again, you are simply making things up that I never said. Keep going with your straw man arguments.

Did I make this up?

It's a very simple question:
Why would you argue against me if you don't think that Alonso does it all on his own?

Edited by mnmracer, 20 January 2013 - 23:02.


#396 mattferg

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 23:46

We really should be sticking to the topic about Marko's interview, but let's get a few things straight here first:

1. It's generally accepted Massa underperformed in the first few races, he's since said so himself. This overemphasized Alonso's driving feats in the first few races. Without a reliable benchmark, we don't know how bad the car truly was.
2. Pat Fry has said after Barcelona the car wasn't that bad. Not amazing, but not bad.
3. No one said Newey was an engineering genius when his cars were blowing up for Raikkonen and Rory Byrne was running the show. Not to mention that after 1999, the only championship McLaren won was in 2008, AFTER Newey left.
4. Why does everyone act like Alonso doesn't have a well-paid team, with stable finances, designing his cars and giving it their all? Pat Fry is a competent engineer, and if Alonso's in a team that can't deliver car-wise, he should sort that out and move, not criticise other drivers who have chosen their teams well.
5. Over the course of the season the Ferrari wasn't anywhere near as bad as Alonso makes out, Pat Fry said so himself. RBR had a lot of problems early on and McLaren were dominating the show (see: three wins in a row).

and finally

6. No one in 2005 and 2006 came out saying Briatore's team was amazing and Alonso was only winning because of Renault - ESPECIALLY not Schumacher, who was driving for Ferrari at the time. If Alonso can't win championships with Ferrari he needs to sort this out, not criticise the competition for building a better car than his team. I don't remember Raikkonen complaining he was fighting against Paddy Lowe this year.

Edited by mattferg, 20 January 2013 - 23:51.


#397 aditya-now

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 00:35

My sentiments exactly.

Truth is Alonso and Ferrari are fighting against Newey because Newey has been able to develop a car that caters to Vettel's strengths. It's not a bash on Vettel, it's a reality that is lost on most of the people who want to think the only thing capable of creating success for the Red Bull-Renault is Vettel himself. He's a factor obviously, but if the package wasn't as good as it is, he doesn't have 3 WDC's in a row.


Exactly, as evidenced by Christian Horner himself, who was stating that the latest updates on the Red Bull did not suit Mark. The race wins that Vettel took with these latest updates geared to suit Seb enabled him (narrowly) to gain the WDC.

Alonso was only stating the obvious, so what was the need of Dr.Helmut Marko to hit out at him? Probably just to protect his child Seb - and obviously their agreement goes so far that Dr.Marko washes the dirty linen for him....


#398 aditya-now

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 00:40

I am making the point that both don't do it on their own, and your only reply is "look at what Newey does for Vettel".
You don't even bother with a little line like 'compare that to what Ferrari does to Alonso', no, your only focus is Newey.
How much more obvious can you be?


Interesting that you bring up "compare that do what Ferrari does to Alonso" - one could have thought that the last updates at the Scuderia have rather suited Felipe's driving style than Fernando's, while at Red Bull it was just the opposite.

Also I see a big difference in philosophy in Alonso declaring that he would drive for Massa where the cards reversed. I am still waiting for such a statement from Vettel (that he would drive for Webber were the cards reversed), but we can be sure that Dr. Marko will see to that, that the cards will never be reversed. In fact he stated already so in his Red Bulletin interview.

#399 BoschKurve

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 00:49

Did I make this up?

It's a very simple question:
Why would you argue against me if you don't think that Alonso does it all on his own?


You're the one who started arguing against me by trying to make it appear I claimed Alonso does everything on his own, in an effort to support some half-baked idea of yours.

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#400 BoschKurve

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 00:57

Exactly, as evidenced by Christian Horner himself, who was stating that the latest updates on the Red Bull did not suit Mark. The race wins that Vettel took with these latest updates geared to suit Seb enabled him (narrowly) to gain the WDC.

Alonso was only stating the obvious, so what was the need of Dr.Helmut Marko to hit out at him? Probably just to protect his child Seb - and obviously their agreement goes so far that Dr.Marko washes the dirty linen for him....


That's been my thought about the entire thing. Marko obviously feels protective of Vettel and probably realizes there is quite a bit of truth in what Alonso says. But, it's F1 and car design still matters. You can't win championships without a good package, and Vettel has been fortunate to have Newey developing cars that are challenging consistently each season for the title. This is the best run he has had since the Williams-Renault designs.