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the oldest teams alive


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#51 oetzi

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:19

Peugeot is it

Not if you're going by the 'same legal entity' criterion.

Leaving that to one side. have they been racing continuously since they started racing? (we'll allow them the war years off, I think). I don't know, and finding out might be a lot of work.



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#52 404KF2

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:03

Whether their competition history has been continuous or not, it is impressive and worthy of some celebration. Peugeot may not be around much longer....

#53 oetzi

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 08:46

They'll probably limp on. It would be disastrous politically for the French government to let them fail, and seeing as it's just taxpayers' money, and it's the taxpayers who would be unhappy if it closed, why wouldn't they keep feeding it in?

Of course, that makes some sense, so it may well not happen.


#54 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 15:37

Thinking about this a little more, most likely demanding same legal entity is not fair or correct. Though I am not sure what to suggest apart from that, I am adamant that McLaren is still McLaren, and that Ferrari is still Ferrari, I am not certain that I agree with regard to Sauber as for me it was a question of Sauber selling and then re-buying, however can see that side of the argument as to the BMW still being the same team.

Have Peugeot really been racing every season since early 1900s? And I will allow the war years not to count there.

:cool:

#55 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 15:49

Peugeot or Peugeot Sport(or whatever it was called over history)?



#56 HaydenFan

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 15:52

Have Peugeot really been racing every season since early 1900s? And I will allow the war years not to count there.


As a factory backed team? No. Peugeot Sport (Peugeot Talbot Sport) was founded in '81. They withdrew from racing as a team to build the F1 engines for Prost, McLaren, and Jordan until the team reformed to go back to rally.

When Peugeot pulled out of WRC after '05 with Citroen, they were out of racing until '07 when they introduced the 908. Also, the addition of using Kronos Racing to run in the IRC 207 S2000 in '07 marked their one year absence from motorsport as a team. And they are again out of motorsport.


#57 oetzi

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 19:30

Thinking about this a little more, most likely demanding same legal entity is not fair or correct. Though I am not sure what to suggest apart from that, I am adamant that McLaren is still McLaren, and that Ferrari is still Ferrari, I am not certain that I agree with regard to Sauber as for me it was a question of Sauber selling and then re-buying, however can see that side of the argument as to the BMW still being the same team.

Have Peugeot really been racing every season since early 1900s? And I will allow the war years not to count there.

:cool:

Ferrari is Ferrari. Sauber was just a case of 'change the name, change the boss' for a couple of years. McLaren was a hostile takeover.

Re the Peugeot stuff, did they race every year up to 81? WOuld be interesting to know, but I doubt they did. Not at a level where you could argue for continuity of a 'team', anyway. Interested to find out if anyone knows, though.


#58 Vitesse2

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 23:15

Ferrari is Ferrari. Sauber was just a case of 'change the name, change the boss' for a couple of years. McLaren was a hostile takeover.

Re the Peugeot stuff, did they race every year up to 81? WOuld be interesting to know, but I doubt they did. Not at a level where you could argue for continuity of a 'team', anyway. Interested to find out if anyone knows, though.

Sporadically until 1932. Some rallying after that, but until they started building sports cars in the 80s the last pure racer they had built was the 174S:

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#59 Lemnpiper

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:27



I know the focus has been on 4 wheels , but what about the factory bikes of Harley Davidson in AMA flat track?


Or even in in motorcycles that compete in Grand Prix around the globe?




Paul



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#60 oetzi

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 10:36

Sporadically until 1932. Some rallying after that, but until they started building sports cars in the 80s the last pure racer they had built was the 174S:

Cheers. Had a feeling there was a sizeable gap there. Although you'd have to include the 205 T16 as a pure racer, surely?

#61 Group B

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 11:12

Cheers. Had a feeling there was a sizeable gap there. Although you'd have to include the 205 T16 as a pure racer, surely?

No question; it was designed and built to win rallies, with 200 road going versions issued in order to meet homologation. It had feck all in common with the standard issue 205.

#62 oetzi

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 11:22

I haven't really bothered with rallying since they killed Group B. I loved those cars, which is unsurprising seeing as they came out when I was 10-15 years old, were mildly insane bits of machinery, and you would occasionally see one of the roadgoing versions growling round London to keep you dreaming. I guess you were pretty keen on them too.

The cars before Group B were pretty cool too, but the ones since have all been a bit too sane for my liking. Impressive, but essentially sane.

Anyway, better stop running off topic.

How long have the Skoda rally team been going? Must be one of the oldest in rallying, at least.





#63 Group B

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 11:38

[Slightly OT]

Yep, never been as good since. You can argue that modern cars are quicker over a given stage, with uber traction control and suspension, but that's missing the point; those cars were so fantastically raw, with engines right on the limit of what could be done per cc and more enphasis on mechanical engineering. WRC cars are very clever in their way, but when you can buy a 230bhp hot hatch a 300bhp WRC car isn't going to stun you in the same way a 500bhp Quattro S1 did compared to a 110bhp XR3i.

Like you I was 13, 14 at the time and loved every minute.

[/Slightly OT]

Edited by Group B, 11 January 2013 - 11:38.


#64 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:58

Not that it should sound as if I am after Sauber, they are my second favorite team. But the results under the BMW regime was assigned to BMW not to Sauber. BMW won a race, Sauber never won one, so they can not be the same team.

So rather that looking at racing licenses and legal entities, who is credited with their results? That still leaves the Lotos and Lotus adding to Lotus as being soooo wrong, and I personally disregard Lotus and Lotus results as being Lotus.

:cool:

#65 HaydenFan

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 14:33

I know the focus has been on 4 wheels , but what about the factory bikes of Harley Davidson in AMA flat track?


Or even in in motorcycles that compete in Grand Prix around the globe?




Paul


That is a good question. I'm a bit on the young side and the 1000cc era was my first introduction to the sport, so I might not know the full details, but in the late 80's, early 90's, you had Kenny Roberts running his team with Yamaha's in a factory effort. Was he just the head of the Yamaha team, or was his team that folded in '07 a different program? You have teams in World Superbike that for a long time ran factory teams (Paul Bird Motorsport running the Kawasaki's and Ten Kate being the factory Honda effort as a examples). Does that mean it's a continuation of the factory effort or a new team? What about Ducati? Does their MotoGP team become a something new/different due to the companies sale to Lamborghini through Audi?

Harley Davidson has been running in the Grand Nationals in the U.S. since the early 1900's, starting on the board tracks and dirt circuit. Even the Isle of Mann in it's early years against Indian.

#66 oetzi

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 20:15

Not that it should sound as if I am after Sauber, they are my second favorite team. But the results under the BMW regime was assigned to BMW not to Sauber. BMW won a race, Sauber never won one, so they can not be the same team.

So rather that looking at racing licenses and legal entities, who is credited with their results? That still leaves the Lotos and Lotus adding to Lotus as being soooo wrong, and I personally disregard Lotus and Lotus results as being Lotus.

:cool:

BMW Sauber was the team that won that race. Seeing as the constructor and engine maker tend to get credited in the team name, and BMW made the engines, you can draw you own conclusions.

If you can't make up your mind, the team never moved from Hinwil. If that helps.

I think the Wiki page puts it very politely - look at the results in the summary bar on the right hand side, under Sauber-Ferrari.

#67 oetzi

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 20:29

[Slightly OT]

Yep, never been as good since. You can argue that modern cars are quicker over a given stage, with uber traction control and suspension, but that's missing the point; those cars were so fantastically raw, with engines right on the limit of what could be done per cc and more enphasis on mechanical engineering. WRC cars are very clever in their way, but when you can buy a 230bhp hot hatch a 300bhp WRC car isn't going to stun you in the same way a 500bhp Quattro S1 did compared to a 110bhp XR3i.

Like you I was 13, 14 at the time and loved every minute.

[/Slightly OT]

[OT]

Spot on. I'll try to reduce the idea to a simple line. Not that it includes a Group B car. And runs backwards in time. But apart from that, it makes sense to me.

R5 GT Turbo: great, fast, fun - R5 GT Turbo Cup: really great, slicks, chipped engine, really, really quick - R5 Turbo :eek: :clap: :kiss:

[/OT]

#68 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 21:01

BMW Sauber was the team that won that race. Seeing as the constructor and engine maker tend to get credited in the team name, and BMW made the engines, you can draw you own conclusions.

If you can't make up your mind, the team never moved from Hinwil. If that helps.

I think the Wiki page puts it very politely - look at the results in the summary bar on the right hand side, under Sauber-Ferrari.



Wikipedia is not where I look for verification of facts. I have made my mind up, I agree that Sauber and Sauber BMW can be argued and discussed, but I do not agree that it is clear cut I am in the wrong NOT seeing them as being in continuous competition, I am equally certain that BMW GmbH look upon themselves as a former F1 constructor of Race winning cars.

Here are links to sites agreeing with me:

http://www.statsf1.com/en/sauber.aspx

http://www.statsf1.c...bmw-sauber.aspx

:cool:


#69 oetzi

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 21:28

Not saying you're wrong that BMW are a race winning constructor, just saying that the Sauber team was in place (and named) at the time that happened.

The expertise and money of BMW improved the facilities and the results, no question. But the team remained, with extra help and different management. And when the help and management went, the team kept the new kit and carried on.

Not arguing with you, just saying what I see :)

Edited by oetzi, 11 January 2013 - 21:29.


#70 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 21:33

Not saying you're wrong that BMW are a race winning constructor, just saying that the Sauber team was in place (and named) at the time that happened.

The expertise and money of BMW improved the facilities and the results, no question. But the team remained, with extra help and different management. And when the help and management went, the team kept the new kit and carried on.

Not arguing with you, just saying what I see :)


I which case I agree to disagree.

:cool:

#71 oetzi

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 21:43

Which is fair :)


#72 oetzi

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 21:47

Wikipedia is not where I look for verification of facts.

ps forgot to mention, completely agree on Wiki for facts, just thought the results were very politely presented: currently Sauber-Ferrari, results for Sauber-??? (results as BMW-Sauber)

It's not facts that you get from that, it's a sense of team and relationship.

#73 Myrvold

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 22:00

And lovely to see a F1 debate, where people disagree, and are friends. :D

#74 oetzi

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 22:32

[Slightly OT]

Yep, never been as good since. You can argue that modern cars are quicker over a given stage, with uber traction control and suspension, but that's missing the point; those cars were so fantastically raw, with engines right on the limit of what could be done per cc and more enphasis on mechanical engineering. WRC cars are very clever in their way, but when you can buy a 230bhp hot hatch a 300bhp WRC car isn't going to stun you in the same way a 500bhp Quattro S1 did compared to a 110bhp XR3i.

Like you I was 13, 14 at the time and loved every minute.

[/Slightly OT]

[OT again, but not for long]

They were exotic like this. Out of place and time.

Posted Image

Not enough exotic stuff any more.

[/OT, honest]

Edited by oetzi, 11 January 2013 - 22:32.


#75 oetzi

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 22:34

And lovely to see a F1 debate, where people disagree, and are friends. :D

Aww, shucks :blush:

#76 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:37

Aww, shucks :blush:


Maybe I should go edit that wikipedia entry now...  ;) :rotfl: :rotfl:

:cool: