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V8 Supercars - 2013 Season


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#301 eronrules

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 00:02

Red Bull domination... where have I seen this before...?


energy drinks market perhaps :smoking:

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#302 Eff One 2002

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 00:04

As a Ford fan it's pretty depressing to see the field now completely flooded with Commodores. Only 6 Falcons in the entire field with only 2 Ford teams now? That's shitful. At any rate a dominant and well deserved victory for Lowndes in the first race yesterday. Impressive run from Stoner in the Dunlop series as well with some aggressive overtaking. Nissan and Merc lacking in pace as expected first time out, particularly with the Mercs. Hopefully race 2 will be more interesting.

Edited by Eff One 2002, 03 March 2013 - 00:05.


#303 Yhamm

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 00:44

qualifications for race 2 are live right now : http://www.v8superca....au/v8live/live

edit:

and a new pole for Shane
1. van Gisbergen
2. Winterbottom
3. Whincup
4. W Davison
5. Coulthard
6. Premat
7. McLaughlin
8. Lowndes
9. Ingall
10. Courtney
11. D'Alberto
12. A Davison
...
16. R Kelly
...
25. Slade

Edited by Yhamm, 03 March 2013 - 01:01.


#304 Jimisgod

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 01:29

Why not just call Nissan and Merc 'Class B' and be done with it.

#305 Alfisti

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 01:33

Because 2 test sessions are enough to make sure of parity.

Boring race, worse than the old cars and less competition. Can't see the Nissans or Mercs catching up, they take a step forward and then Holden takes an equally big one! All that happened is 7 cars are now perpetually disadvantaged.


I have been saying it on every V8SC thread, more manufacturers is not going to help parity or costs, it just won't.

#306 Yhamm

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 01:37

Why not just call Nissan and Merc 'Class B' and be done with it.

would you stop your whining already? It is only the first event and all you do is crying on how the MB and Nissan suck

#307 Jimisgod

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 01:41

I have been saying it on every V8SC thread, more manufacturers is not going to help parity or costs, it just won't.


Yeah, but letting the new teams start with such a hp deficit was a bad move. I know some purists would have a cry if you suggested bending the regulations so the new brands weren't just circulating, but they should give them enough to actually be roughly equal on a dyno.

I can't see Mercedes ever making it up there at this point.

would you stop your whining already? It is only the first event and all you do is crying on how the MB and Nissan suck


After everyone was whining about the brands' only difference being the badge on the front? They moved to the CotF to make sure the cars were all pretty equal. That hasn't happened. Of course people aren't happy.

Edited by Jimisgod, 03 March 2013 - 01:46.


#308 Alfisti

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 01:42

Yeah, but letting the new teams start with such a hp deficit was a bad move. I know some purists would have a cry if you suggested bending the regulations so the new brands weren't just circulating, but they should give them enough to actually be roughly equal on a dyno.

I can't see Mercedes ever making it up there at this point.


So now you're back to the shit fights I mentioned earlier, THAT's the problem, you can't win, there is no solution.

#309 Kiwi

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 01:53

Damn, this isn't being aired on NZ TV!!

Oh well, no surprise really.....I guess it's live feed time again...


It's live on Sky...

#310 Eff One 2002

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 02:08

First race of the season, give teams a few more events to work the cars out.

Exactly. It's early days yet. :up:

#311 krapmeister

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 02:26

I have been saying it on every V8SC thread, more manufacturers is not going to help parity or costs, it just won't.


But having just 1 manufacturer - because Ford will not be there much longer - isn't going to help either. Not many people would be happy watching a field full of spec Commodores running around...

#312 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 03:18

I have been saying it on every V8SC thread, more manufacturers is not going to help parity or costs, it just won't.

Remember the purpose of this thread! It has made everything more expensive, it cannot do anything else. As for Larkam with his blackboard,,,,, all equal. Lets get real. Though they all equally seem to have transaxle dramas, the dramas that should have been sorted before they went racing. The darmas that have appeared from the very first test. That is not to blame Albins, but the installation and teams probably. Though those boxes have had shift problems in off road racing which is where they are from.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 03 March 2013 - 03:20.


#313 klyster

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 06:02

It's live on Sky...


Usually it's on TV3, I guess it's live feeds time again..

Edited by klyster, 03 March 2013 - 06:04.


#314 Yhamm

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 06:08

they were so aggressive after the safetycar, as if they were waiting fir some hot action ^^
great to see Shane back at the top of the podium <3

stream was good except for a 2,5sec delay on sound :( I wonder if they will stream all race, I would love it

#315 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 06:49

Interesting event. Van Gis did very well and deserved it. His old team was last!! Probably a good place to leave.
As for the rest clowns spraying oil and coolant drive around for a full lap, actually causing furher accidents. Maybe a 3 month holiday for them and their teams! Premer, Todd Kelly Tander and others. After this weekend about 2 teams would be left!!
HRT its usual biffing barging and blocking self, just a carry on from Skaife!
yound Mc Laughlin and geriaric Ingall both did very well. Russell was the best for HRT and environs!
Ford clutch defeat from victory again. Though the hub nuts sticking out so far is a classic piece of stupid engineering from Thupercars! Get a bump in the wheel and they wont come off. FIVE nut wheels!
The gearbox dramas conmtinue, seemingly for the majority.
And Todd Kelley has driven right into another accident.From about 10 cars behind! Though at least it was not a yellow at the time. I dont think he ever looks forward. Probably a couple of others deserve some attention too from that particular bingle.
The Nissans are ok mid fielders, about where they will stay though at a guess. From both driver and car talent.
AMG probably should stay home until they get the basics sorted out.
And the usual heat problems!! A half front door window and use the plenum of the car for some fresh air in the drivers face and footwell.Dont need cool suits then! Thougfh still not pleasant ofcourse. Though how on earth the pedals are burning their feet defies logic, the floor yes with the exhaust under it. It was a pleasant not hot day to day. What would have happened if it was 40 degrees as it has been before? 5 cars finish? This is just basic preperation, those so called pro teams seem to go out of their way to make problems, that has been the same for decades.
and for all the classes, use the face of the kerbs only, not driving over them. As most categories find at most race tracks. They are supposed to be there for a reason. In the GP days you were black flagged for even using the kerbs!! True, only the F1s were allowed to drive on them. Though these days I think you get a prize for hitting the fence behind them!! Dumb and poor officialdom.

#316 Wuzak

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 07:13

Premer, Todd Kelly Tander and others. After this weekend about 2 teams would be left!!


Teflon Tander could have driven around the whole race with fluids coming out of the car without officialdom coming down on him!


The gearbox dramas conmtinue, seemingly for the majority.


I don't know why they didn't stick with the Hollinger - a proven gearbox design and all the teams had them! I guess it was a cost decision.


The Nissans are ok mid fielders, about where they will stay though at a guess. From both driver and car talent.


And the level of the team itself.


Ford clutch defeat from victory again. Though the hub nuts sticking out so far is a classic piece of stupid engineering from Thupercars! Get a bump in the wheel and they wont come off. FIVE nut wheels!


They've been using a single wheel nut for a very long time. Is there something different about the new ones?








#317 0thecougar

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 08:01

I'm supprised Tony Cochrane didn't draft Lee in to replace him.
The way he explains everything, it sounds like the whole V8 SC community have no idea what they're doing-it's amazing that there's so many childish things that have been mucked up with these million dollar teams.
It's simple. All run old Terana's made by 'The Chosen One'(Lee) and we'll have the perfect series.
Surely SOOO much of the things that have been put down would have come up in the working group that Skaife was a part of? Didn't that run for months?
What series in the world have brought in such a rule change and all cars qualified within a 10th of a second of each other...as a 30 car field? Is that what people really expected? :S

On a positive note:
I havn't been watching the series much over the last few years but thought todays racing was great.
Just be happy that there is some racing back on! Much better than having to go out with the Mrs on the weekend! :up: :smoking:
Interesting to hear Rusty Ingle say it's a lot more similar to a single seater with heaps better mid corner speed. It would be interesting to know if all of these teams are in similar positions to last year?
HOW COOL WAS THE END OF RACE CELEBRATIONS? haha. F1 could learn from the Rossis and Van Gizs of the world!

Edited by 0thecougar, 03 March 2013 - 08:03.


#318 GeoffR

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:11

Though the hub nuts sticking out so far is a classic piece of stupid engineering from Thupercars! Get a bump in the wheel and they wont come off.

They've been using a single wheel nut for a very long time. Is there something different about the new ones?

From the telecast it seems that with the new 18" wheels the wheel nut does protrude beyond the edge of the rim or tyre sidewall, hence bump it against a concrete wall and it burrs the edge of the nut over so they can't get the rattle gun onto the nut. Was definitely the case with Coulthard's BJR car from what you could see. You would reckon that they could have thought that one out a bit better.

Edited by GeoffR, 03 March 2013 - 10:12.


#319 Sardukar

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:13

I thought it was a good first weekend for the new car. Sure there were some issues for a few teams, but overall it was a positive. The interesting thing will be to see if they can get all the issues sorted by the next meeting....and if they can't well then its time to complain. I think nissan did pretty well, but merc have some pretty serious issues.

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#320 Jimisgod

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:59

http://www.commodorecup.com.au/

Clipsal turned up good racing... but only after an SC, so nothing has changed.

Not inspiring enough to watch any of the regular rounds. It would have been nice with a clean slate but it looks like perpetual catch up for the new brands. Disappointing because what everyone wanted was a paradigm change.

At least BJR and GRM did well.

#321 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:02

I'm supprised Tony Cochrane didn't draft Lee in to replace him.
The way he explains everything, it sounds like the whole V8 SC community have no idea what they're doing-it's amazing that there's so many childish things that have been mucked up with these million dollar teams.
It's simple. All run old Terana's made by 'The Chosen One'(Lee) and we'll have the perfect series.
Surely SOOO much of the things that have been put down would have come up in the working group that Skaife was a part of? Didn't that run for months?
What series in the world have brought in such a rule change and all cars qualified within a 10th of a second of each other...as a 30 car field? Is that what people really expected? :S

On a positive note:
I havn't been watching the series much over the last few years but thought todays racing was great.
Just be happy that there is some racing back on! Much better than having to go out with the Mrs on the weekend! :up: :smoking:
Interesting to hear Rusty Ingle say it's a lot more similar to a single seater with heaps better mid corner speed. It would be interesting to know if all of these teams are in similar positions to last year?
HOW COOL WAS THE END OF RACE CELEBRATIONS? haha. F1 could learn from the Rossis and Van Gizs of the world!

Again, a fan boy who has never built a racecar, or ran one. Cochrane had no idea often,just an enteprenuer, nor it seem have a lot of them. Car of the future!! They are fat Sports Sedans. Which I raced for about 20 years.
The million dollar teams are part of the problem, too much money and little commonsense. Racecars with no ventilatrion, wheel nuts that stick out and are vulnerable. In short a car built by a committee! Just wait until it rains, lexan windows will be a real problem. they always were on a Sports Sedan, and actually have been on the Tourers thelast couple of years except the glass heated screens. They are JUST ok on a Sports Sedan where weight is a factor,,, and do 10 lap races for the mosty part.
As for 1/10 apart qualifying. 2.6 seconds today and about 4 sec yesterday. look at Natsoft. in a 28 car field.
And really Skaife does not seem that technical, a decent driver when not hitting people but never had the mechanical sympathy or savvy. There is a lot of instances of that as a driver. They need someone like Larry, an engineer who could do things on a budget. I doubt he would ever have agreed with these cars. And he used to use 5 stud wheel until forced into the inferior centrelock. His words!

#322 BellisEndis

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 14:51

From the telecast it seems that with the new 18" wheels the wheel nut does protrude beyond the edge of the rim or tyre sidewall, hence bump it against a concrete wall and it burrs the edge of the nut over so they can't get the rattle gun onto the nut. Was definitely the case with Coulthard's BJR car from what you could see. You would reckon that they could have thought that one out a bit better.


Pretty sure the problem lies with the locking pin at the centre of the hub and which the wheel gun depresses to disengage it (the rounded edges on the nuts you would of seen on tv is to allow the gun to slip on easier without having to line it up perfectly). When hitting the wall the hub/pin get ground up making it hard or impossible for the wheel gun to depress it, and why we saw FPR using a punch and hammer to get the job done.. This was a problem with the last car but it seems you maybe right that it is sticking out a bit more hence more susceptible to being damaged when you clout the wall.. Easy fix is not to hit the


HOW COOL WAS THE END OF RACE CELEBRATIONS? haha. F1 could learn from the Rossis and Van Gizs of the world!

..


Unless they do away with the gearbox/engine rules I doubt it :(

Edited by BellisEndis, 03 March 2013 - 15:25.


#323 BellisEndis

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 15:12

Again, a fan boy who has never built a racecar, or ran one. Cochrane had no idea often,just an enteprenuer, nor it seem have a lot of them. Car of the future!! They are fat Sports Sedans. Which I raced for about 20 years.
The million dollar teams are part of the problem, too much money and little commonsense. Racecars with no ventilatrion, wheel nuts that stick out and are vulnerable. In short a car built by a committee! Just wait until it rains, lexan windows will be a real problem. they always were on a Sports Sedan, and actually have been on the Tourers thelast couple of years except the glass heated screens. They are JUST ok on a Sports Sedan where weight is a factor,,, and do 10 lap races for the mosty part.
As for 1/10 apart qualifying. 2.6 seconds today and about 4 sec yesterday. look at Natsoft. in a 28 car field.
And really Skaife does not seem that technical, a decent driver when not hitting people but never had the mechanical sympathy or savvy. There is a lot of instances of that as a driver. They need someone like Larry, an engineer who could do things on a budget. I doubt he would ever have agreed with these cars. And he used to use 5 stud wheel until forced into the inferior centrelock. His words!


You do know they never intended to build the lightest car, they built something that could take the knocks of the 7000+km of racing a year, easily repaired over night when they clout a wall at speed with bolt on front and rear chassis rails so it can make the rest of the meeting and also when hitting the outside wall at turn 8 in adelaide at over 260km/h or when getting tboned at over 200km/h across the top of the mountain hopefully we won't see any more drivers die.. How would your 750kg torrie cope with all that???

You were bitching about the 20grand diffs, have you ever seen one in real life? They are a ****ing work of art and would have to be the best solid axel setup ever developed for motorsport and would piss on your 1g torrie diff and no doubt better than a lot of irs setups out there.. They were also the key in getting the old v8supercars to work hence the big dollars spent on them.

You speak of wheel nuts, but the problem is not the nut but the locking pin in the centre which I'm pretty sure larry was the one who came up with the idea ;)

I could go on but then we would just get an even longer reply about how you know and can do everything better, I shouldn't of even replied to this one but you just exhale so much hot air..

Edited by BellisEndis, 03 March 2013 - 15:14.


#324 Yhamm

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 17:38

As for 1/10 apart qualifying. 2.6 seconds today and about 4 sec yesterday. look at Natsoft. in a 28 car field.

Let's see how is was last year at the same event hm
So for race 2 (cause no superpole where they usually go slower), Whincup had the pole in 1'20"5353, 17th is the first to be 1sec behind, last is 1.9sec behind
This year, van Gisbergen got the pole in 1'20"7148, 21st is the first to be 1sec behind, 27th is 1.6sec behind. I do not count Maro Engel on this qualifications, he had big engine problem all week end (he is 2.6s behind, 1sec slower than the guy in front of him)
that's really horrible :(
and that's only the first event... some cars never ran for so long before

#325 Ian G

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 23:08

I'm not really into Supercars but enjoyed the races over the W/end,Bathurst will be big this year, and great to see the big crowd.

I thought it would rate a bit better on TV being the first race of the season,no football, and all the "pre-match" hoopla,i guess Motor Sport is just not that family friendly these days. Interesting to see how it goes when the football seasons are in full swing,it might just be only a 2 year contract with 7.

http://www.tvtonight...march-2013.html

#326 BellisEndis

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 00:09

I'm not really into Supercars but enjoyed the races over the W/end,Bathurst will be big this year, and great to see the big crowd.

I thought it would rate a bit better on TV being the first race of the season,no football, and all the "pre-match" hoopla,i guess Motor Sport is just not that family friendly these days. Interesting to see how it goes when the football seasons are in full swing,it might just be only a 2 year contract with 7.

http://www.tvtonight...march-2013.html


There were plenty of families at clipsal over the weekend, saw more kids than bogans with mullets :drunk:



#327 black magic

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 00:32

how come courtney escaped penalty for shunting mcgloughlin

#328 KOMORI

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 01:16

Because Courtney?

#329 Wuzak

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 01:32

Because Courtney?


Because HRT....

#330 FPV GTHO

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 02:04

Some sad news for the sport

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105830

#331 Ian G

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:16

Yeah,Sad,RIP.

There were rumours that he had lung cancer when he started with the V-8's but i don't think anyone took them seriously,those old enough will remember the same was said about Howard Marsden but he lived for another 30 years.

#332 BellisEndis

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 09:48

Here is a little video on the old diff setup for those that maybe interested, no doubt lee can knock one up for a grand that would be better..

http://www.youtube.c...bed/fAfy42hFYBk

#333 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:03

You do know they never intended to build the lightest car, they built something that could take the knocks of the 7000+km of racing a year, easily repaired over night when they clout a wall at speed with bolt on front and rear chassis rails so it can make the rest of the meeting and also when hitting the outside wall at turn 8 in adelaide at over 260km/h or when getting tboned at over 200km/h across the top of the mountain hopefully we won't see any more drivers die.. How would your 750kg torrie cope with all that???

You were bitching about the 20grand diffs, have you ever seen one in real life? They are a ****ing work of art and would have to be the best solid axel setup ever developed for motorsport and would piss on your 1g torrie diff and no doubt better than a lot of irs setups out there.. They were also the key in getting the old v8supercars to work hence the big dollars spent on them.

You speak of wheel nuts, but the problem is not the nut but the locking pin in the centre which I'm pretty sure larry was the one who came up with the idea ;)

I could go on but then we would just get an even longer reply about how you know and can do everything better, I shouldn't of even replied to this one but you just exhale so much hot air..

The object of the 9" was strong and cheap. Not a work of art that bends when it gets a wack. Yes I have seen all the versions, very nice but not EVER cheap racing, the original intention. Supercars could use a thousand dollar diff too. With the usual maintenance they are very strong. look at Nascar! Or a 3k one with an alloy centre and a fancy spool. Look at the AFCO catalogue.
Wheel nuts, Larry never wanted them but if forced to use them possibly came up with a fairly simple device. Fine provided it is not the first thing hit. Never happened with the old cars. Bent the housing yes, often though sometimes they managed to continue for a few points.
The new set up it seems bends the chassis, the three cars that hit the wall evidently are all bent to some degree. Evidently a lot of people expected that. And ofcourse if the French fool had STOPPED it would not have happened. He actually had a place to stop before turn 8.With firies! Courtesy, commonsense not to oil down the track. There was others too ofcourse
As for weight they could be a lot lighter. Carting all that weight around makes no real sense. And still have a strong rollcage, and functioning doors etc! Yet when they roll over all the panels fall off. Coulthards Bathurst crash 2 years ago proved that.
As for knocks with 7k of racing,, the cars are rebuilt after every meeting. The engines do a few shows ofcourse as does sometimes the gearbox. Not at the moment though! If they stopped crashing so often that would save some money. Crashing breaks transmissions, suspensions, etc. As well as tweaking the chassis

#334 Nutella76

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 16:00

Hello

I'm V8 Supercars fan in Europe


where can i watch V8 races in Europe?I know that Motors TV has mostly highlights,but they are 7 days after the race :confused:


some other TV or even stream maybe?



thx :up: :wave:

#335 MikeKellner

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 18:52

Like the guy above me, I have no idea where to watch V8 Supercars.

What channel are they on in the US?

I have seen coverage in racing news and find them interesting. The only NASCAR I like is their road racing. I love high end road racing that is not with aero cars. The tons of downforce ruins the racing. In the end racing is about overtaking, and the aero assist reduces that to nearly zero. I am hoping I can get some races. I have Speed and NBC Sports on my cable package.

I read through this thread. I am new here, just got approved today. It seems V8 is in a new era. One that is now using what in the US are called Spec Cars. I saw that happen in both IndyCar and NASCAR. It ruined both series. At least it seems like the motor rules are somewhat open and they still tack stock bodywork onto the cars, which is promising, and Spec seems to affect road racing less than ovals, which it really ruins.

My other observation on Spec is, it does not lead to parity. Instead the richest teams rule. The small areas where they can modify the car are still affected by how much money you can throw at them, and if those are the only places where you can make a difference, the rich teams hone and polish them to find every .001 sec and the milliseconds add up. If the rules are more open, a small team can find stuff no one thought of and get a leg up. If all you can do is play with is stuff like where the mirrors are mounted for maximum aero effect, then money for time in the tunnel is what rules.



#336 Alfisti

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 19:23

V8SC are offering their own stream this year, i assume it will cost though. I'm on expat and the sport here bores me to tears so i may sign up if it allows me to view on demand.

V8SC has been a spec series for the best part of 10 years at least.

Edited by Alfisti, 05 March 2013 - 19:23.


#337 Doughnut King

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 00:43

V8SC are offering their own stream this year, i assume it will cost though. I'm on expat and the sport here bores me to tears so i may sign up if it allows me to view on demand.

V8SC has been a spec series for the best part of 10 years at least.


It's entirely free, so far.

http://www.v8superca...v8live/schedule

Edited by Doughnut King, 06 March 2013 - 00:44.


#338 Rob G

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 03:16

Like the guy above me, I have no idea where to watch V8 Supercars.

What channel are they on in the US?

Last year Speed showed them on a one-week delay. I just checked their schedule, and their showing the Adelaide event on March 31.

#339 Brother Fox

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 03:19

Drug dealer tactics - get you hooked and then up the price :)

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#340 BellisEndis

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 11:52

It's entirely free, so far.

http://www.v8superca...v8live/schedule


It will become a paid service come Tassie I believe...

The cost that I saw being mentioned in the survey they had after Adelaide was $59.95 for a season pass and $2.95 for a single days viewing. For a decent stream of all sessions that is add free I would be more than happy to pay that..

#341 TC3000

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 15:05

Just wait until it rains, lexan windows will be a real problem. they always were on a Sports Sedan, and actually have been on the Tourers the last couple of years except the glass heated screens.
They are JUST ok on a Sports Sedan where weight is a factor,,, and do 10 lap races for the most part.


So why would that be?
Just because you and your buddies can't make something work in their sheds, means it has to be "a real problem" for everyone all over the world too?

Heated Polycarbonate screens/windows have been around since at least 15 years in the racing industry now, and work just fine, even in LeMans. And it does rain there from time to time.

as an example from the mid late 90's

http://supertouring....ear-windscreen/

Looks like you are a bit "out of touch" with whats going on - things move on you know.

Edited by TC3000, 06 March 2013 - 15:06.


#342 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 11:40

So why would that be?
Just because you and your buddies can't make something work in their sheds, means it has to be "a real problem" for everyone all over the world too?

Heated Polycarbonate screens/windows have been around since at least 15 years in the racing industry now, and work just fine, even in LeMans. And it does rain there from time to time.

as an example from the mid late 90's

http://supertouring....ear-windscreen/

Looks like you are a bit "out of touch" with whats going on - things move on you know.

And no doubt very expensive too.The so called objective is too make things cheaper. Though with the cut and shut bodys now the standard screen may not fit anymore, at least on some cars.
Plastic of any type fogs far worse than glass. That is fact. It scratches worse than glass. Fact. It is less optically pure than glass. Fact. So racing a mobile sauna with poor ventilation and plastic windows will be a real drama.Fact. And yes I have mopped literally a bucket of water out of those things between starts. how so much gets in really amazes me.
As for heated polycarbonate how? Do they laminate it? that will make it less optically pure. Heat polycarbonate and it becomes flexible, like most plastics. Not a good thing at 180mph. Do they stick on an accesory shop demister? Same problem as above. For an endurance race glass, with the heating elements is far superior. Fact. And for any wet race.

And a Nissan Primera Super tourer seldom did more than about an 1/2 hour race. They broke down, crashed and only did short races anyway.

#343 BellisEndis

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 12:53

Posted Image

#344 TC3000

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 18:16

Plastic of any type fogs far worse than glass.
That is fact. It scratches worse than glass. Fact.
It is less optically pure than glass. Fact.
So racing a mobile sauna with poor ventilation and plastic windows will be a real drama.Fact.
And yes I have mopped literally a bucket of water out of those things between starts. how so much gets in really amazes me.
As for heated polycarbonate how? Do they laminate it? that will make it less optically pure.
Heat polycarbonate and it becomes flexible, like most plastics.
Not a good thing at 180mph. Do they stick on an accesory shop demister?
Same problem as above. For an endurance race glass, with the heating elements is far superior. Fact. And for any wet race.


Can you provide any numbers to back up your FACTS? You seem to have a lot of them.
Or are they only based on hearsay and experience from people, who went down to the local hardware store, buying a 1/4" Polycarbonate/Makrolon sheet off the shelve,
and tried to make some race car windows out of it?
Just to find out that not everything that's called Makrolon is equal, and then keep bitching about it's ~30% lesser scratch resistance compared to glass for the rest of there life.

While you could get the scratch resistance to within 0.3% of glass, if you would have thought about it for a bit and bought the right stuff.

What's your definition for "optical purity" ? Do you mean VLT? (Visible Light Transmittance), if so, then provide some numbers and let's see what you come up with.
Just keep in mind that nobody anywhere in the world will let you race with car windows made out of "pure glass".
Laminated Windows contain at least one layer of PVB (Polyvinylbutyral) which will effect the VLT value.
If this ( the VLT value) is such a big deal, how come that almost any helmet visor for use on motorcycles is made of Polycarbonate? (as well as safety goggles, some sun glasses and contact lenses)
Just to provide some perspective, the legal limit for VLT for windscreens on road legal cars in most countries is 75% (some have 70%).

You also convincingly (for you) forget to mention, that Polycarbonate has an impact resistance which is ~200-250% higher then "glass", which for racing at 180 mph may is not such a bad thing.
Unless you want to stop during a race and change your windscreen after a bird/debris or in Australia perhaps Kangaroo strike. (Lowndes striking this stray tyre in Bathurst comes to mind)
That may put into perspective your last FACT, about the benefits of laminated & heated glass windscreens for Endurance racing.
It's lighter too, which is/was one of the main reason it gets used.

As for how are they heat a Makrolon screen, there are different methods, so it will depend on what you use, and how much money you want to spent for it.
Some of the ones we have used had small resistive wires, the same as you find in some heated laminated glass screens.
Another method is to apply an ITO (Indium Tin Oxide) coating with bus bars around the perimeter of the window, where the coating will heat.

So, yes, there are downsides for upsides, just like with about everything else in life, if you have some light it will create some shadows.
The question is, how much of a real world problem are some of the downsides? - Like a app. 5% lower VLT, which is still ~10% higher then the legal limit for road use.
I guess most drivers still use tinted visors while racing in sunny Australia don't they?
Therefore VLT may not be one of the main concerns/considerations for a choice of windscreen material.

Yes, they (heated Makrolon) windscreens tend to cost a bit more, then heated glass ones, such is life - you get what you pay for.
But the price difference will greatly depend on the fact, if a headed laminated glass windscreen is available as a standard option for the road car, and if this screen will fit your race car.
If you have to get them (heated laminated glass windscreens) custom made as well, then the price difference maybe becomes less significant.

To make a cost assessment over a season, you will also need to consider, how often you will need to replace a broken glass windscreen during a season, compared to a Makrolon one.
While the upfront cost may being higher, it can be actually a cheaper option over the course of a season or two, just as with carbon brakes & clutches vs. steel/sinter metallic ones.
If this is the case or not, depends on the individual cases, difficult to say/predict, with just some hand waving/preoccupations.

As a side note, last years (the old) cars were "cut and shut", as you like to call it, too but AFAIK they still used the standard windscreens.
So why I can't say for sure, that this is still the case with the CoF, it would really surprise me, if they where not.
The change in height/frontal area is normally achieved by trimming the lower part of the doors/fenders, side panels etc.
(meaning a race car door will not fit a road car opening, being smaller having a gap at the bottom, or the other way round a road car door will be too large to fit the race car)

Lee, I know that you don't like them - V8SC's, and think that they all are just a bunch of w..... who have no f....... idea what they are doing.
That's just fine with me, no problem whatsoever, but that doesn't mean that you have to "invent" some stuff and make up some issues all the time, just to prove your point/support your opinion.

There are many race cars around the world (DTM, LeMans etc.) which race with polycarbonate windows just fine, and do so in the rain too. As there are helicopters and aircraft who do the same.
Just need to think about what you try to do for a bit, and then get what you need and not just drive down to Bunnings and get the cheapest stuff you can find off the shelve, expecting it to do the job.

Enjoy the rest of the season & your SuperSedans







#345 Yhamm

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 23:23

Does anyone know if there will be a stream for Melbourne's races?
it is still the schedule from Adelaide and there is no info on future events

#346 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 05:01

Can you provide any numbers to back up your FACTS? You seem to have a lot of them.
Or are they only based on hearsay and experience from people, who went down to the local hardware store, buying a 1/4" Polycarbonate/Makrolon sheet off the shelve,
and tried to make some race car windows out of it?
Just to find out that not everything that's called Makrolon is equal, and then keep bitching about it's ~30% lesser scratch resistance compared to glass for the rest of there life.

While you could get the scratch resistance to within 0.3% of glass, if you would have thought about it for a bit and bought the right stuff.

What's your definition for "optical purity" ? Do you mean VLT? (Visible Light Transmittance), if so, then provide some numbers and let's see what you come up with.
Just keep in mind that nobody anywhere in the world will let you race with car windows made out of "pure glass".
Laminated Windows contain at least one layer of PVB (Polyvinylbutyral) which will effect the VLT value.
If this ( the VLT value) is such a big deal, how come that almost any helmet visor for use on motorcycles is made of Polycarbonate? (as well as safety goggles, some sun glasses and contact lenses)
Just to provide some perspective, the legal limit for VLT for windscreens on road legal cars in most countries is 75% (some have 70%).

You also convincingly (for you) forget to mention, that Polycarbonate has an impact resistance which is ~200-250% higher then "glass", which for racing at 180 mph may is not such a bad thing.
Unless you want to stop during a race and change your windscreen after a bird/debris or in Australia perhaps Kangaroo strike. (Lowndes striking this stray tyre in Bathurst comes to mind)
That may put into perspective your last FACT, about the benefits of laminated & heated glass windscreens for Endurance racing.
It's lighter too, which is/was one of the main reason it gets used.

As for how are they heat a Makrolon screen, there are different methods, so it will depend on what you use, and how much money you want to spent for it.
Some of the ones we have used had small resistive wires, the same as you find in some heated laminated glass screens.
Another method is to apply an ITO (Indium Tin Oxide) coating with bus bars around the perimeter of the window, where the coating will heat.

So, yes, there are downsides for upsides, just like with about everything else in life, if you have some light it will create some shadows.
The question is, how much of a real world problem are some of the downsides? - Like a app. 5% lower VLT, which is still ~10% higher then the legal limit for road use.
I guess most drivers still use tinted visors while racing in sunny Australia don't they?
Therefore VLT may not be one of the main concerns/considerations for a choice of windscreen material.

Yes, they (heated Makrolon) windscreens tend to cost a bit more, then heated glass ones, such is life - you get what you pay for.
But the price difference will greatly depend on the fact, if a headed laminated glass windscreen is available as a standard option for the road car, and if this screen will fit your race car.
If you have to get them (heated laminated glass windscreens) custom made as well, then the price difference maybe becomes less significant.

To make a cost assessment over a season, you will also need to consider, how often you will need to replace a broken glass windscreen during a season, compared to a Makrolon one.
While the upfront cost may being higher, it can be actually a cheaper option over the course of a season or two, just as with carbon brakes & clutches vs. steel/sinter metallic ones.
If this is the case or not, depends on the individual cases, difficult to say/predict, with just some hand waving/preoccupations.

As a side note, last years (the old) cars were "cut and shut", as you like to call it, too but AFAIK they still used the standard windscreens.
So why I can't say for sure, that this is still the case with the CoF, it would really surprise me, if they where not.
The change in height/frontal area is normally achieved by trimming the lower part of the doors/fenders, side panels etc.
(meaning a race car door will not fit a road car opening, being smaller having a gap at the bottom, or the other way round a road car door will be too large to fit the race car)

Lee, I know that you don't like them - V8SC's, and think that they all are just a bunch of w..... who have no f....... idea what they are doing.
That's just fine with me, no problem whatsoever, but that doesn't mean that you have to "invent" some stuff and make up some issues all the time, just to prove your point/support your opinion.

There are many race cars around the world (DTM, LeMans etc.) which race with polycarbonate windows just fine, and do so in the rain too. As there are helicopters and aircraft who do the same.
Just need to think about what you try to do for a bit, and then get what you need and not just drive down to Bunnings and get the cheapest stuff you can find off the shelve, expecting it to do the job.

Enjoy the rest of the season & your SuperSedans

AsI said the object is too cut costs, hi priced fancy lexan does not cut costs. These days a sheet of 6mm Lexan costs more than a glass screen and really is not much lighter on a modern car. Glass does scratch a lot less. Supertough lexan is a LOT dearer. I would be surprised though if the lexan is not far better than than the glass to keep foreign objects out, though heat it and it may well not be.
But come the first wet race and they will all be fogged up, look at last years efforts, screen fine, side windows opaque.
Remember I have had experience with these materials in race cars, as a lot of other doubters have. I have sat up front in a smaller twin engined plane and looked through the flat windows with severe wiper scratches and look sideways and it is quite magnified. Those screens are probably 10mm. A great headache if you had to look through it all day,,, autopilot helps a lot. .Though in a plane you do not have 20 other cars around you

#347 arrysen

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 15:13

So wet race today and no apparent dramas - didn't appear to be any fogging and of course the wipers are wiping over the tear off material, which is exactly the same as the glass screens had, so no change at all from the point of view of potential scratching from wipers.

#348 Sardukar

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 17:50

AsI said the object is too cut costs, hi priced fancy lexan does not cut costs. These days a sheet of 6mm Lexan costs more than a glass screen and really is not much lighter on a modern car. Glass does scratch a lot less. Supertough lexan is a LOT dearer. I would be surprised though if the lexan is not far better than than the glass to keep foreign objects out, though heat it and it may well not be.
But come the first wet race and they will all be fogged up, look at last years efforts, screen fine, side windows opaque.
Remember I have had experience with these materials in race cars, as a lot of other doubters have. I have sat up front in a smaller twin engined plane and looked through the flat windows with severe wiper scratches and look sideways and it is quite magnified. Those screens are probably 10mm. A great headache if you had to look through it all day,,, autopilot helps a lot. .Though in a plane you do not have 20 other cars around you


it's painful how wrong you are.

#349 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 20:53

So wet race today and no apparent dramas

It was a cracking race. :up: :up:

Maybe SVG could go to NASCAR one day, he knows how to put on a show!

Adelaide
and yesterday that was a very "conversvative" entry to the finish straight!

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 16 March 2013 - 20:54.


#350 krapmeister

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:31

Lol eventful night for the V8's at Albert Park - 6 cars excluded from the results of yesterdays race due to having 'illegal ignition timing' including 888, Tekno and a couple of Nissans, and apparently Moffat and Pye came to blows in the paddock afterwards as well with Moffat fined $5000...