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Can you date this photo?


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#1 David Beard

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 20:50

This is a street scene from Stranraer. A post card I would think. The key feature is the posh car below the clock tower. What is it?

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#2 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 21:02

Perhaps about 1937 given the cars and dress of the population. With the cars it could have been post war but I would suggest the more formal style of dress makes it pre war.

#3 Vitesse2

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 21:55

Looks like an Armstrong Siddeley Atalanta. Which would fit with 1937 or thereabouts. :)

#4 D-Type

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 22:04

I think the 'posh car' is a SS Jaguar - the model from immediately prewar that was also marketed postwar as Jaguar so that doesn't help.

#5 arttidesco

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 22:23

The size of the head lights and the disc like wheels / hubcaps dissuade me from Armstrong or Jaguar in favour of 1937 ish Bentley Saloon.

#6 nicanary

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:03

Alvis IMHO - possibly Charlesworth. Too big to be a SS Jaguar, too low to be a Bentley.

#7 pete53

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 13:33

This is the best picture, from the correct angle, that I can find of the Siddeley. They look somewhat similar.

http://www.armstrong...dels/20-25.html



#8 D-Type

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 15:32

Since several manufacturers restarted production postwar with the car they had been making prior to the 'little unpleasantness' dating is made more difficult.
Does the Austin(?) on the right give any clues?
On the original are the number plates decipherable? If they are Scottish they will be in the form *S* nnn, or nnn *S*, where '*' is a letter and 'n' a number

#9 mgtd

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 16:05

Alvis IMHO - possibly Charlesworth. Too big to be a SS Jaguar, too low to be a Bentley.



Agreed Mr Canary; Alvis Speed 25,1936/7. Looks Charlesworth like.


Owner probably in the Western Hotel (?) or having a swift cup of tea in Lyons Corner House served by a smartly uniformed "Nippy"...not the sporting bodied Austin type obviously.

Stephen

#10 nicanary

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 16:22

The Austin on the right is, I believe, a Vauxhall. It could well be post-war as has been suggested. Most manufacturers re-commenced production with warmed-up pre-war models, and the non-availability of new cars meant the public were driving older cars well into the 60s.

(I loved 'em as a kid - the aroma of REAL leather seats and petrol on a warm day- bliss)

#11 Alan Cox

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 17:08

Can't add anything further on the car, but it is George Street, Stranraer and the hotel is the George Hotel.

#12 D-Type

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 19:04

Does any forum member live in Dumfries & Galloway or within striking distance of the area and could make enquiries at e.g. the reference library, the local paper, the local historical society etc.

Edited by D-Type, 10 January 2013 - 19:05.


#13 GMACKIE

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 21:37

That front bumper looks like the Alvis 'Harmonic damper' type, to me.

#14 gkennedy

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 21:54

Like Greg, I'm in Australia, so I'm not much help - although I have walked along that street. I stayed in Stranraer some years ago and as a Kennedy, I visited Castle Kennedy and gardens nearby. It looks like we've got the cars nailed though. The big one is an Armstrong Siddeley Atlanta - or a Bentley, or an SS Jaguar (either pre-war, or post war), or an Alvis Speed 25. The little Austin is either an Austin - or a Vauxhall. How about the truck three doors down? Maybe that'll help.

#15 GMACKIE

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 23:17

Could the big saloon be a Railton, perhaps?

#16 Kingsleyrob

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 23:28

Could the big saloon be a Railton, perhaps?

That's an interesting suggestion Greg. I did a spot of Googling last night and dismissed a few suggestions on account of the size and position of the headlights. The Alvis headlamps and position looked closest but I still wasn't convinced.

What do we think of this match, a 1937 Railton Cobham?

https://www.google.c...mp;bih=416#i=26

Rob

#17 275 GTB-4

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 23:35

Agreed Mr Canary; Alvis Speed 25,1936/7. Looks Charlesworth like.

Stephen


Certainly does...the hard part is the curve below the top of the radiator cowling...probably just shadows though...

Its 1455 on the day...

Would the style of the RAC sign be any help? Looks to be a lot of white vice blue....the white around the periphery could also be an illusion though

#18 eldougo

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 06:04

When you put them up like this they look a Railton to me

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#19 RCH

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:35

This is a street scene from Stranraer. A post card I would think. The key feature is the posh car below the clock tower. What is it?


My immediate reaction was Railton although such a thing would have been rare I would have thought. It is fitted with large Lucas P100esque headlamps which probably wouldn't have been standard. The car opposite is a Vauxhall, what is the car behind the alleged Railton? I keep thinking Ford 8 but it's too big for that. The van further down the street makes me think this is pre rather than post war. It may still have been in use by the '40's but somehow looks rather incongruous in that setting.

Is there any particular reason for wanting to date it David?


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#20 alansart

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:21

Would the style of the RAC sign be any help? Looks to be a lot of white vice blue....the white around the periphery could also be an illusion though


I can't help with the cars but part of the RAC sign is still there.

By the 1960's it was moved up and an AA sign added underneath it.

The George Hotel (now looking closed) but with the remains of the RAC sign still visible.


#21 Kingsleyrob

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 10:02

Curiouser and curiouser.

Railton or Alvis?

We nostalgists often bemoan the fact that "all modern cars look the same". Perhaps it was ever so, to some extent.

Here's a lovely 1939 MG WA 2.6:

http://www.mgcars.or.../mountford6.jpg

Rob


#22 Catalina Park

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 10:05

From this angle it looks like a Cortina....

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And from this angle it looks like a BMW...

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This one is supposed to be 1952...

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#23 David Beard

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:38

My immediate reaction was Railton although such a thing would have been rare I would have thought. It is fitted with large Lucas P100esque headlamps which probably wouldn't have been standard. The car opposite is a Vauxhall, what is the car behind the alleged Railton? I keep thinking Ford 8 but it's too big for that. The van further down the street makes me think this is pre rather than post war. It may still have been in use by the '40's but somehow looks rather incongruous in that setting.

Is there any particular reason for wanting to date it David?


It's part of an excellent stream of old photos from Dumfries and Galloway appearing on a Facebook.
http://www.facebook....?ref=ts&fref=ts

I've been able to help with dating a view based on the cars seen in the shot, but this had me beat. I must admit that I think so far the Railton looks the closest match, but it would be remarkable to see such a rarity in these quiet parts?

Edited by David Beard, 11 January 2013 - 12:42.


#24 Kingsleyrob

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:53

I've been in touch with a good friend of mine who has a couple of 1920s Austins, and whose brother has two 1920s Alvises, one of them a cracking 12/50 Sports.

Malcolm's observation is as follows:

"Rob, I can't identify the car! Not a Jag or an Armstrong. The difficulty is
that many quality pre-war cars used a handful of coach builders to
produce the bodywork, resulting in similar exterior profiles apart
from the radiator grille, which is indistinct in the photograph."

Good point!

Rob :wave:


#25 D-Type

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 13:02

David,
Stranraer - Larne was (and I think still is) one of the main ferry crossings to Northern Ireland so the likelihood of rarities being seen there (while travelling through) is higher than you would expect.

#26 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 14:58

My feeling is that it is pre war based on the more formal dress of the the people in the photos. Post way things were a little more relaxed and ties and hats were not always the order of the day!

#27 RCH

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 19:47

From this angle it looks like a Cortina....

Posted Image


Nice to see a prime example of the Scottish Motor Industry parked there.


#28 h4887

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 20:28

Parked or broken down?

#29 Vitesse2

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 20:42

Parked or broken down?

No, left there after the driver got confused when he opened the bonnet and couldn't find the engine ... :stoned:

#30 David Beard

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 20:59

No, left there after the driver got confused when he opened the bonnet and couldn't find the engine ... :stoned:


But with a strong Ferrari connection, of course...

#31 Kingsleyrob

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 21:37

Parked or broken down?



#32 Odseybod

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 21:48

But with a strong Ferrari connection, of course...


Parkes or parked?

#33 arttidesco

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 22:02

Posted Image

Don't know if these will help or hinder, the length of the coats suggests prewar to me.

Posted Image

I can see the resemblance to the Railton Cobham saloon but the wheels are looking more Bentley than moon disc hubcap Railton IMHO.

Edited by arttidesco, 11 January 2013 - 22:04.


#34 ChrisJson

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 23:05

We nostalgists often bemoan the fact that "all modern cars look the same". Perhaps it was ever so, to some extent.

Rob


Exactly my thoughts!

Do you remember that Simca/Fiat/Alfa Romeo/MG/Singer/Kaiser
from a thread just before christmas?


Christer


#35 Kingsleyrob

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 08:32

Exactly my thoughts!

Do you remember that Simca/Fiat/Alfa Romeo/MG/Singer/Kaiser
from a thread just before christmas?


Christer

I missed that thread Christer I'll take a look.

My research tells me that the Alvises of the period tend to carry their spare wheel higher than other marques, as does our mystery car.

What do we think of this match, a 1938 Alvis?

http://i.i.com.com/c...938_610x368.jpg

Rob

Edited by Kingsleyrob, 12 January 2013 - 08:37.


#36 Geoff E

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 11:01

The Vauxhall 10-4 was introduced in Oct 1937 http://en.wikipedia....i/Vauxhall_10-4

Can the registration numbers be discerned on the original?

#37 Paul Parker

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:50

Posted Image

Don't know if these will help or hinder, the length of the coats suggests prewar to me.

Posted Image

I can see the resemblance to the Railton Cobham saloon but the wheels are looking more Bentley than moon disc hubcap Railton IMHO.


I'm not that au fait with pre-war road cars but my first impression on seeing the photo was that the car was an Alvis, based upon the motor that my old French teacher used as his every day transport.

#38 RCH

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 14:01

The blown up photo shows up what could be a flag on the side of the car behind the Railton/Alvis/Bentley/Armstrong (I still favour Railton), I had been puzzled as to why it was parked so close but could they be on their way to a political rally or some such? Was there perhaps a local MP/bigwig who owned an interesting car?

I will of course treat the aspersions cast toward the superb design of Messrs. Parkes and Fry with the comtempt they deserve...

#39 David McKinney

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 14:17

Definitely not a Railton

My first thought (back after Post 1) was Alvis or AC but I wasn't confident enough to say so. I'd still go with Alvis

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#40 nicanary

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 14:46

The blown up photo shows up what could be a flag on the side of the car behind the Railton/Alvis/Bentley/Armstrong (I still favour Railton), I had been puzzled as to why it was parked so close but could they be on their way to a political rally or some such? Was there perhaps a local MP/bigwig who owned an interesting car?

I will of course treat the aspersions cast toward the superb design of Messrs. Parkes and Fry with the comtempt they deserve...


The political angle is a good one - there appears to be a poster on the side of the second car, the one with the flag. This could help date the photo - it comes down to a national or by-election, probably just pre-war. The "fancy" car probably belongs to a candidate or local big-wig. Any Stranraer residents with access to local records?


#41 Vitesse2

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 15:56

The political angle is a good one - there appears to be a poster on the side of the second car, the one with the flag. This could help date the photo - it comes down to a national or by-election, probably just pre-war. The "fancy" car probably belongs to a candidate or local big-wig. Any Stranraer residents with access to local records?

Stranraer was in the Wigtown constituency, for which John Mackie was MP from 1931 until his death in 1958. There were no parliamentary elections in the constituency between 1931 and 1945 - Mackie was returned unopposed in 1935.

http://en.wikipedia......e_politician)

#42 mgtd

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 16:57

Still plump for the Alvis option, but it may be a 4.3 Saloon, not checked any visual differences, but car in this pic looks darn similar?

http://www.timwalker...-reference.html


Stephen

#43 D-Type

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 11:00

Stranraer was in the Wigtown constituency, for which John Mackie was MP from 1931 until his death in 1958. There were no parliamentary elections in the constituency between 1931 and 1945 - Mackie was returned unopposed in 1935.

http://en.wikipedia......e_politician)


It might be a local council election but I doubt they would have had flags ets.
Maybe the cars and people were en route to Northern Ireland. How 'volatile' was the province at that time? Would a candidate have felt it prudent to stay in Stranraer and travel across on the ferry for the hustings?
Could the cars and flags be for a march or parade - VE Day? Remembrance Day? royal visit? agricultural show? orangemen?

#44 nicanary

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 11:28

It might be a local council election but I doubt they would have had flags ets.
Maybe the cars and people were en route to Northern Ireland. How 'volatile' was the province at that time? Would a candidate have felt it prudent to stay in Stranraer and travel across on the ferry for the hustings?
Could the cars and flags be for a march or parade - VE Day? Remembrance Day? royal visit? agricultural show? orangemen?


Most Orange parades in Scotland are confined to the Glasgow area. If this is just pre-war, as we are supposing, then flying a Union Flag would not have been a problem in the Province - at that time in its history it was still very much Protestant controlled.

This thread has gone on longer than I anticipated considering the subject-matter. It's rather like a social-history question on Autopuzzles.


#45 Kingsleyrob

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:50

A friend has been in touch with the following: My Alvis friend says it is definitely a Charlesworth Speed 25 and if it is possible to read any part of the reg from the original post card, he could give you more info on that car!!

Rob :wave:

#46 275 GTB-4

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:02

A friend has been in touch with the following: if it is possible to read any part of the reg from the original post card, he could give you more info on that car!!

Rob :wave:


I could probably provide the same service - but I won't, on privacy grounds :) [the Alvis Registrars various may prick their ears up as well]

#47 arttidesco

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:48

A friend has been in touch with the following: My Alvis friend says it is definitely a Charlesworth Speed 25 and if it is possible to read any part of the reg from the original post card, he could give you more info on that car!!

Rob :wave:


I had a go at blowing up image to read the number plate looked to me like the letter was J possibly followed by a 5 but I'd need to a better scan to be sure ;)

Edited by arttidesco, 07 February 2013 - 11:49.