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2014 Power Units


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#1 Timstr11

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 14:43

Mercedes AMG gave journalists a seek peek at the 2014 Power Units.
James Allen reports: http://www.jamesalle...-change-in-2014

Engines will have much more torque on corner exit than currently is the case. Will sound as music to many.

David Croft ‏@CroftyF1
Talking of Energy Recovery Systems. From 80hp for 6.7secs per lap to 161hp for 33.3 secs per lap. Fuel limited to a max 140 litres per race


Edited by Timstr11, 11 January 2013 - 14:52.


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#2 senna da silva

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 14:57

Its going to be interesting to see which teams are using which engines.

I thought it said fuel limited to 100 litres per race.

#3 jrg19

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 14:58

Mind is full of wonderful information. Ears are full of how the power units will sound. Very, very excited about the future.


From Will Buxton.

#4 senna da silva

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 15:00

My bad it says 100kg, which is 140 litres based on a fuel specific gravity of 0.71.

#5 gm914

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 15:01

Will sound as music to many.

Taylor Swift also sounds like music to many... :well:

#6 Lennat

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 15:01

It's a hundred liters. These engines would be awesome with 140 liters. :(

Edited by Lennat, 11 January 2013 - 15:02.


#7 maverick69

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 15:05

It's a hundred liters. These engines would be awesome with 140 liters . :(


Maybe they've changed to 140l? Because with the 100l limit the cars would have to "totter around" at 12,000 rpm max.... And the cars would sound gash?

#8 Gintonious

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 15:08

No recording of them, pity, but I guess rival teams would get info from that as well.

#9 Owen

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 15:12

Here's the 'power unit' in question (not allowed to call it an engine):
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105081

#10 Timstr11

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 15:14

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#11 Jovanotti

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 15:16

And manufacturers are now basically building Le Mans engines...don't know if that's good or bad thing frankly :well:

Whereas today’s engines need to last for 2,000kms, the 2014 units will therefore need to last for 4,000 kms, which interestingly also makes them usable in the Le Mans 24 hours race.



#12 Victor_RO

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 15:23

And manufacturers are now basically building Le Mans engines...don't know if that's good or bad thing frankly :well:


4000 km is still not enough for Le Mans, an engine used in the 24h race (if the race ends up close to the distance record) will do approximately 6000-6500 km (race distance record is 5410 km, the rest of the distance is made up of warm-up and the 4 hours of qualifying session running on Thursday).

#13 Rikhart

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 15:27

I have to admit that article made me very curious to hear what they sound like :D

#14 Diablobb81

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 15:30

The only problem with longevity (and it won't apply just to the engine) is the 10 place grid drop.


Couldn't they find a better penalty?

#15 Owen

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 15:44

I have to admit that article made me very curious to hear what they sound like :D

Same but deeper seems to be a consensus. No complaints from the journos either.

#16 dau

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 16:12

Its going to be interesting to see which teams are using which engines.

I thought it said fuel limited to 100 litres per race.

It's actually neither. Fuel mass flow is limited to 100kg/h, but there is no restriction on fuel tank size. Well, at least that's what's in the last 2014 Technical Regulations draft from December last year.

http://www.fia.com/s...IONS-111212.pdf

Edited by dau, 11 January 2013 - 16:13.


#17 kosmos

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 16:18

Nice way to tease the fans, just upload an audio clip!.

#18 Gfhuus

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 16:29

Everything else except freezing the units already on March 1st 2014 sound good. I hoped they could develop the engines the whole first season or something.

#19 Jejking

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 16:34

It's actually neither. Fuel mass flow is limited to 100kg/h, but there is no restriction on fuel tank size. Well, at least that's what's in the last 2014 Technical Regulations draft from December last year.

http://www.fia.com/s...IONS-111212.pdf

Good post! +1

@ above, don't get your hopes up. Some of the teams are using equipment to gather data from audio. I think it will take a good while before we hear the first 1.6l v6 rev up, because everyone (Renault, Ferrari) will go for maximum obscurity. Raise your bets ladies, I call july / august 2013.

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#20 darkkis

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 16:35

"One important aspect of change will be to see the power unit as a whole entity, so that each driver will have 5 power units for the season (currently he has 8 engines). So if he has a failure of ERS, turbo, an exhaust, battery or control electronics failure you will have to use a sixth power unit and incur a 10 place penalty. Today it’s only the engine itself which attracts a penalty."

Oh dear lord.... This can't be good. :rotfl:

#21 Owen

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 16:39

Nice way to tease the fans, just upload an audio clip!.

They cannot do this. Too much information can be gleaned by competitors.

#22 Gintonious

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 16:41

"One important aspect of change will be to see the power unit as a whole entity, so that each driver will have 5 power units for the season (currently he has 8 engines). So if he has a failure of ERS, turbo, an exhaust, battery or control electronics failure you will have to use a sixth power unit and incur a 10 place penalty. Today it’s only the engine itself which attracts a penalty."

Oh dear lord.... This can't be good. :rotfl:


I really hope they change that rule!

#23 H2H

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 17:35

Unsurprisingly it has pretty much the same outline as the Renault power unit, with the single turbo downstream. Of course it all still quite early and the motoristi will try to get as much publicity as possible with revealing as little as needed. The comment about the ERS is interesting.

"We are putting the motor back in motorsport, but to what extent we will only know in 2014," he said. "It will definitely have more of an influence."

The new power units will produce the same 750hp figure of the current engines but a larger percentage of that will come from Energy Recovery Systems.

The current KERS currently produces 80hp for 6.7 seconds per lap, while the new ERS will deliver 161 hp for 33.3 seconds per lap.

Cowell said: "Today it is difficult to be quick without KERS - for 2014 it will be impossible to go racing without ERS."


I'm sure that many smart heads are smoking about how to best manage and map the harvested energy. I guess we will have a couple of maps for the drivers to chose from and a push-to-pass button for max performance. In theory a faster car with more downforce meaning more full throttle and RPM could safe plenty of the electric energy for making an overtake stick by using the more powerful ERS for a considerably longer time then the KERS.

Depending on the exact rules on the position of the exhaust pipe we might also see aero concerns troubling our dear motoristi. With the rules having been tight exhaust blowing was just too important of a performance differential to ignore, despite having sometimes a considerable negative effect on the engine output (think Kimi in Korea). Now the engine seems to become an arguably bigger element in relative performance and with three different engine suppliers among the current top teams there are plenty of incentives to invest there the limited ressources. So I would rule out exhaust blowing in 2014 unless the rules make it too attractive for the top teams to invest in it.

Edited by H2H, 11 January 2013 - 17:43.


#24 Victor_RO

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 17:54

Everything else except freezing the units already on March 1st 2014 sound good. I hoped they could develop the engines the whole first season or something.


Which is another reason why these engines are not really likely to be used at Le Mans, LMP1 engines undergo constant development. Particularly with the 2014 rules that promote energy efficiency.

#25 KiloWatt

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 18:19

Which is another reason why these engines are not really likely to be used at Le Mans, LMP1 engines undergo constant development. Particularly with the 2014 rules that promote energy efficiency.


Well, I don't think there is any rule against engine development (read on). You're just not allowed to race the developed engine in F1. I.e., the engine you race with is the homologated engine. I don't think there is any rule prohibiting you from developing the engine for use outside of F1.

Edited by KiloWatt, 11 January 2013 - 18:19.


#26 Tombstone

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 19:17

I'm so glad to be rid of those stupid screaming 18K+ engines, I really am.

Low pitch is so much more agreeable than high.


Anyhoo, I think a better solution to grid penalties for engine changes is a 'fine' in terms of constructor championship points.

#27 MaxisOne

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 19:31

Im glad to see that there is an engine .. but I wonder if more could be done to develop the product further. Im certain this isn't the final design but one hopes that they have not become a bit complacent since the initial design is now out the door.

I would have rather it be introduced plainly stating this is a working concept than .. bam .. here's Mercedes 2014 power unit.

Edited by MaxisOne, 11 January 2013 - 19:31.


#28 shonguiz

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 19:34

Just to calrify: Will the engine developement still be frozen or will they have, let's say a year or two to def sort out the reliability and then seal the engines for good ?

Edited by shonguiz, 11 January 2013 - 19:34.


#29 peroa

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 19:40

Homologation deadline is March 1st 2014.
http://www.jamesalle...change-in-2014/

#30 Timstr11

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 22:04

Will Buxton's opinion:
http://willthef1jour...-it-is-awesome/

#31 senna da silva

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 23:25

It's actually neither. Fuel mass flow is limited to 100kg/h, but there is no restriction on fuel tank size. Well, at least that's what's in the last 2014 Technical Regulations draft from December last year.

http://www.fia.com/s...IONS-111212.pdf


The article is wrong then. Cheers. :up:

#32 Seanspeed

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 23:45

Just to calrify: Will the engine developement still be frozen or will they have, let's say a year or two to def sort out the reliability and then seal the engines for good ?

They'll be frozen, but I'm sure allowances will be made if a manufacturer shows a distinct competitive disadvantage or problems with reliability.

#33 Fastcake

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 00:09

They'll be frozen, but I'm sure allowances will be made if a manufacturer shows a distinct competitive disadvantage or problems with reliability.


I also believe that rule, together with the number of power units currently limited at five, will be quickly scrapped. It's not unfeasible that the engines are going to be too unreliable to last the season, five over 20(+?) races seems rather optimistic.

#34 Tombstone

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 00:22

I also believe that rule, together with the number of power units currently limited at five, will be quickly scrapped. It's not unfeasible that the engines are going to be too unreliable to last the season, five over 20(+?) races seems rather optimistic.


Hope you're right.

MMmmm, toastie...

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#35 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 00:55

You can't tell how loud something will be from a recording.

You also can't tell what it's going to sound like if it's going to be a 6>1 collector, and you're not hearing the end design.

If the 125,000 rpm (the only thing that IS an F1 figure here...) turbo is heard over the engine - they're doing something wrong.

Bottom line: you can't have less hp going through the engine and it be as loud as before.

You also can't have 1 exhaust sound like 2, or 10.

..and technically, a minor third - 3 notes - lower than 18,000 rpms is a Big Deal. One note alone is a Big Deal. If one doesn't think the difference in pitch of going up another 3 notes isn't a "Big Deal" you probably don't understand why all the other humans seem to enjoy that "music" thing so much.


I'm sure it will sound neat, but it *can't* be as loud - likewise, as impressive from afar.

The sad thing is this quote: "Using the amassed knowledge of working on KERS in F1, the boys at Brixworth have created a car which is set to become the new benchmark in terms of energy density. Featuring 12 battery modules and 864 individual cells, the SLS AMG Electric Drive is a purely electric car with a 250km range, 1000Nm of torque and 740hp… that’s just 10hp less than an F1 car. "


To *me*, an F1 car has 1,000 hp. A nice, nearly un-driveable on the street figure. I don't want to know there is some rich joker somewhere saying things like "yeah, yeah, my car here, it's got the power of an F1 car!". WTF?

#36 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:05

Another thing: the engines are going to be frozen in March before the season starts???

Seriously?

500 bar fuel injection, a 1/3rd less fuel, a completely new energy recovery system, a *turbo running at 125,000 rpm*, etc. etc...?

Only 5 engines per season??????

I suppose we'll have grid penalties....?

No more 18,000+ rpm scream, AND the engines are not going to be as loud?

THAT IS GOING TO SUCK.


*I don't care if an F1 car has any relevance to my road car. In fact, I DON'T REALLY WANT IT TO.* Unless I can buy and drive it, WHAT IS THE POINT? Do I like Star Wars because it featured battles between balsa wood gliders and Nerf light sabers that didn't make any sound? NO. WTF? Ahrghrh...



#37 Timstr11

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:09

and 740hp… that’s just 10hp less than an F1 car. "
[/i]

To *me*, an F1 car has 1,000 hp. A nice, nearly un-driveable on the street figure. I don't want to know there is some rich joker somewhere saying things like "yeah, yeah, my car here, it's got the power of an F1 car!". WTF?

The 740 hp figure itself is meaningless and can easily become useless if the chassis is not up to it.
Did you consider the weight, downforce, drag and mechanical grip figures of an SLS vs that of an F1 car?

#38 Timstr11

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:17

*I don't care if an F1 car has any relevance to my road car. In fact, I DON'T REALLY WANT IT TO.* Unless I can buy and drive it, WHAT IS THE POINT? Do I like Star Wars because it featured battles between balsa wood gliders and Nerf light sabers that didn't make any sound? NO. WTF? Ahrghrh...

You don't care, but the shareholders of Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault want their respective companies to spend money wisely which means that the millions of euros spent on F1 engine research will be money well spent as these technologies will find their way to road cars and it will help them with raising the sport's and their brand's profile at the same time.

#39 Meanbeakin

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 02:31

I predict people will either praise them or harshly criticise them initially, people will get used to them (ie. the ugly 2009 cars and the 2012 step noses) and then life will go on.

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#40 SPBHM

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 03:06

"The engines will also deliver much more torque - especially on the exit of the corners. Cars with more power than grip coming out of the corners - that is something that we all enjoy.


Sounds good to me!

#41 Dan333SP

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 03:25

Another thing: the engines are going to be frozen in March before the season starts???

Seriously?

500 bar fuel injection, a 1/3rd less fuel, a completely new energy recovery system, a *turbo running at 125,000 rpm*, etc. etc...?

Only 5 engines per season??????

I suppose we'll have grid penalties....?

No more 18,000+ rpm scream, AND the engines are not going to be as loud?

THAT IS GOING TO SUCK.


*I don't care if an F1 car has any relevance to my road car. In fact, I DON'T REALLY WANT IT TO.* Unless I can buy and drive it, WHAT IS THE POINT? Do I like Star Wars because it featured battles between balsa wood gliders and Nerf light sabers that didn't make any sound? NO. WTF? Ahrghrh...


Serious question... When did you start actively following F1? I only ask because I enjoy the V8s, but after having heard the V10 and V12 engines in anger from earlier eras, I know that we've already fallen a long way in terms of impressiveness and I'm actually looking forward to a change. I hope that the different engine brands have distinct notes... I still remember being able to tell each car apart in the late 90s based on sound alone.


#42 FPV GTHO

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:05

To *me*, an F1 car has 1,000 hp.

How many have though? The unrestricted V10's and the turbos in their final years (excluding qualifying spec)?

#43 flyinglow

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 06:53

It's actually neither. Fuel mass flow is limited to 100kg/h, but there is no restriction on fuel tank size. Well, at least that's what's in the last 2014 Technical Regulations draft from December last year.

http://www.fia.com/s...IONS-111212.pdf


I think you'll find the 100 kg limit is part of the Sporting Regulations, which haven't been published yet, not a Technical Regulation.

Edited by flyinglow, 12 January 2013 - 06:58.


#44 flyinglow

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 06:57

I also believe that rule, together with the number of power units currently limited at five, will be quickly scrapped. It's not unfeasible that the engines are going to be too unreliable to last the season, five over 20(+?) races seems rather optimistic.


The base performance spec is homologated today but manufacturers are still allowed to make reliability changes, so it's reasonable to think that would stay the same. The five power units isn't something new - the FIA announced it back in 2010, at that time for 2013 before the rules got delayed... http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/88647

#45 DrProzac

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 10:29

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105080

The new power units will produce the same 750hp figure of the current engines but a larger percentage of that will come from Energy Recovery Systems.

The current KERS currently produces 80hp for 6.7 seconds per lap, while the new ERS will deliver 161 hp for 33.3 seconds per lap.

Well, that's not true. We currently have ~750 bhp + 80 KERS. So around 750 continuous power plus 80 boost for 6.7 seconds. No we will have around 600 continuous power and 160 boost for a much longer period, but still not continuous. Whatever perspective you look from at this, that's less power.

"The engines will also deliver much more torque - especially on the exit of the corners. Cars with more power than grip coming out of the corners - that is something that we all enjoy.

That's good. I wonder what will the exact figures be, especially considering KERS. But we have to remember that what matters is the torque figures on the wheels, and they are greatly affected by gear ratios. Engine revs will be lower, so the gearbox won't increase torque as much as it used to. The effect may not be as huge as some think.

How many have though? The unrestricted V10's and the turbos in their final years (excluding qualifying spec)?

In race trim I don't think that neither V10s nor Turbos had 1000 bhp, though they were close.
Anyway I also wish that F1 was back to V10 era peak power levels.

#46 dau

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 11:04

I think you'll find the 100 kg limit is part of the Sporting Regulations, which haven't been published yet, not a Technical Regulation.

That's entirely possible of course, but it would be a bit odd - how are they gonna enforce something like that if not via fuel tank size? Also, Allen's article talks about "a maximum one 100 kilos of fuel [...] rather than 150kg today" and there's nothing regarding a 150kg limit in either Technical or Sporting Regulations. It also seems unnecessary to have both a capacity and mass flow limitation.

Guess we can only wait until they publish the final regulations.

#47 r4mses

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 11:07

Concerning track tests: since there're probably just three pre-seaon tests in 2014 for the new engines, is there any rule which denies Mercedes - or Ferrari, Renault... - to put that power unit in whatever car they have available and give it a try? A SLS or FF or whatever.

#48 handel

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 11:10

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, but I do agree with many that it would have been nicer for the cars to not be any slower round the lap. We need to be dropping laptime via aero changes, not power unit ones.

Apologies if already mentioned but does anybody actually know how the ERS deployment will be triggered? Will we have drivers pressing a button for half a lap? How does using a pedal like some teams do actually work? Is there scope for an 'active' system where it's automatically deployed for a driver or is that covered under a rule clause to say it must be 'driver operated'?

Edit: One last thing. This will surely also play into the hands of anyone who sticks it on pole as having a 30s windows where drivers can use ERS tactically to overtake each other is going to result in a lot of squabbling in the opening laps meaning anyone in clear air can just dump their 30s worth as quickly as possible each lap (taking efficiency into account) and drive off into the distance.

So many questions - I just hope this doesn't dilute what should be the pinnacle of motorsport.

On the plus side - engines will blow up :)

Edited by handel, 12 January 2013 - 11:14.


#49 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 11:11

"One important aspect of change will be to see the power unit as a whole entity, so that each driver will have 5 power units for the season (currently he has 8 engines). So if he has a failure of ERS, turbo, an exhaust, battery or control electronics failure you will have to use a sixth power unit and incur a 10 place penalty. Today it’s only the engine itself which attracts a penalty."

Oh dear lord.... This can't be good. :rotfl:

That's theoretically a disadvantage to Red Bull's* notoriously unreliable KERS and advantage to Ferrari and Mercedes.. .tend to think Bernie would want that rule to stay then!

*(though they will switch to Renault KERS right ??? - well it be a lot more complicated than KERS - and probably be a "customer" - or rather lead works - team with priority one Renaults better than the other Lotus customer team...)


I wonder if these engines will really do 15000 rpm, or instead run at ~12500 ish with the fuel etc restrictions ?

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 12 January 2013 - 11:15.


#50 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 11:18

That's entirely possible of course, but it would be a bit odd - how are they gonna enforce something like that if not via fuel tank size?


Weigh every car before and after the race? It's not that hard. Take the wheels off though for the measurement though, too easy to cheat.


So it will be even less fuel then 100 kh if other lost fluids etc are taken into account. Make it tough on these F1 chaps. :D