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2014 Power Units


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#501 KiloWatt

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 16:24

Haven't really seen or read anything on this, but will the cars look very different compared to the cars from the last couple of years due to these new turbo engines?


I'm going against the common sentiment here, but while I think they won't look extremely different to the current crop (like the difference we saw 2008 - 2009) - but I think the difference will be noticeable.

Why? Well different size engines plus a hulluva lot of extra ancilliaries. Cooling will be quite different then, which will affect the aero. Not to mention to exhaust flow will be completely different. And seeing that the exhausts are a very hot topic right now (pun not intended) and form a crucial part of the aero - it's only logical that when you take away that part the aero will look at least a little different.

Also the fuel tank size will be somewhat different, which will affect aero. IIRC, we have a different size front wing, and that will make a very big difference (ok, this is seperate from the engine - but still, it will affect how the cars look next year in a significant way I suspect).

Whoooh, what did I miss? It feels like I missed something... :confused:

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#502 Timstr11

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 17:09

Whoooh, what did I miss? It feels like I missed something... :confused:

Lack of a beam wing and the lower front bulkhead, but that's OT.

#503 SenorSjon

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 17:23

That's not correct. Read post #491.

I've read it and still don't like it. Do we get aero points as well?

There were no new suppliers knocking on the door before homologation.

Before

Ferrari
Mercedes
Renault
BMW
Honda
Toyota
Ford/Jaguar/Cosworth

Next year:
Ferrari
Renault
Mercedes IF the corruption case vs Bernie goes well.

yeah, the homologation really works. Porsche won't touch F1, because they hardly have a real world use for F1 technology. BMW rather goes DTM and is harvesting big profits.

Only Honda returns.


#504 Clatter

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 17:35

I've read it and still don't like it. Do we get aero points as well?

Before

Ferrari
Mercedes
Renault
BMW
Honda
Toyota
Ford/Jaguar/Cosworth

Next year:
Ferrari
Renault
Mercedes IF the corruption case vs Bernie goes well.

yeah, the homologation really works. Porsche won't touch F1, because they hardly have a real world use for F1 technology. BMW rather goes DTM and is harvesting big profits.

Only Honda returns.


None of those that left cited homologation as the reason for leaving. Porche have not been interested in F1 for a long time.

There are very few manufacturers that have any interest in joining F1, homologation is not the reason why.



#505 pingu666

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 19:19

theres got to be a fear of producing a poor engine and being locked into it, toyota and honda engines where rumoured to have fallen behind. and being locked into a spec does kill alot of enthusim too im sure

#506 SenorSjon

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 19:21

Why not?

The talk about who has the best engine subsided long ago. I only hear that Renault is expensive. When they were to slow, they got a free pass to up the power. What commercial value has F1 if you can't make your brand stand out?

#507 KiloWatt

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 19:54

Lack of a beam wing and the lower front bulkhead, but that's OT.


Yes, thank you! That was going to drive my crazy all night.
:up:

#508 KiloWatt

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 19:56

Why not?

The talk about who has the best engine subsided long ago. I only hear that Renault is expensive. When they were to slow, they got a free pass to up the power. What commercial value has F1 if you can't make your brand stand out?


Twice, iirc.

#509 7MGTEsup

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 20:51

One turbo, not two.


Doesn't mean you can't have side entry, after all the BMW/Megatron was only single turbo.

#510 Wuzak

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 02:48

Doesn't mean you can't have side entry, after all the BMW/Megatron was only single turbo.


I believe the current airbox shape/cover is regulated, and thus there would be no point to side entries for the turbo.

Edited by Wuzak, 04 June 2013 - 02:48.


#511 dau

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 13:55

I believe the current airbox shape/cover is regulated, and thus there would be no point to side entries for the turbo.

I don't think the airbox shape is regulated per se, but the Technical Regulations mandate that you must have 'bodywork' in this area:

3.16.1 With the exception of the opening described in Article 3.16.3, when viewed from the side, the car must have bodywork in the area bounded by four lines. One vertical 1330mm forward of the rear wheel centre line, one horizontal 550mm above the reference plane, one horizontal 925mm above the reference plane and one diagonal which intersects the 925mm horizontal at a point 1000mm forward of the rear wheel centre line and the 550mm horizontal at a point lying 50mm forward of the rear wheel centre line.
Bodywork within this area must be arranged symmetrically about the car centre line and, when measured 200mm vertically below the diagonal boundary line, must have minimum
widths of 150mm and 50mm respectively at points lying 1000mm and 50mm forward of the rear wheel centre line. This bodywork must lie on or outside the boundary defined by a linear taper between these minimum widths.



That's the area they're talking about:
Posted Image
(Borrowed side profile pic from Scarbs, thanks, Scarbs.)

Teams could probably go for a blade structure and side inlets like the W01 and T128 had - which could have some benefits for the air flow onto the rear wing, but i'm not sure if that would be worth the cons.

#512 akshay380

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 06:16

2014 Renault power unit.

http://www.f1talks.p...chment_id=22682

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#513 mandingo

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:37

Wow Nice , very fancy

#514 FastnLoud

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 14:04

Good read on 2014 engines

http://www.worldacad...no02paper08.pdf

#515 Ali_G

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 08:00

A real pity the high airbox will remain. Was hoping some team would go with a different airbox with just a plain roll hoop behind the drivers head and a lower engine cover.

#516 Diderlo

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 19:37

According to AMuS the new engines will have up to 900 bhp in qualy and about 800bhp in race. So they would have more horses than current engines. Also torque would be around 600Nm versus current 350Nm. Numbers vary a little depending on manufacturer. So we might see powerful cars after all.

Pirelli (Hembery) said that those numbers are huge and will be a challenge for them. They also want to make wider rear tyres, but they are negotiating with teams that how wide.

Edited by Diderlo, 01 July 2013 - 19:38.


#517 onewingedangel

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 20:14

More power and less downforce for next year?

Plus Pirelli tyres?

:eek:

#518 midgrid

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 21:50

IIRC it has already been posted in this forum that Pirelli intends to produce significantly more durable tyres next season for this very reason.

#519 DrProzac

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 21:58

900 bhp in qualy - so 740 bhp without (K)ERS. That's an acceptable figure and if the (K)ERS will be available for enough laptime it may be quite good. Still it's not much more than the current engines have with KERS, but for a longer time. It would be a welcome improvement.

800 bhp in race, so 640 base and less than the current engines have with the aid KERS. It's not good enough, unless the ERS will be active almost all the time.

The torque figure at the wheels won't be that much bigger I guess, because of the rpm drop (so different gear ratios). But the curve will be different.

Anyway it wouldn't be bad, but I'm skeptical that it's true.

Edited by DrProzac, 01 July 2013 - 22:00.


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#520 Otaku

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 00:22

They also want to make wider rear tyres, but they are negotiating with teams that how wide.



Bring back 18'' wide tyres on the rear, and make the front ones narrower !!

#521 Timstr11

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 05:32

900 bhp in qualy - so 740 bhp without (K)ERS. That's an acceptable figure and if the (K)ERS will be available for enough laptime it may be quite good. Still it's not much more than the current engines have with KERS, but for a longer time. It would be a welcome improvement.

800 bhp in race, so 640 base and less than the current engines have with the aid KERS. It's not good enough, unless the ERS will be active almost all the time.

The torque figure at the wheels won't be that much bigger I guess, because of the rpm drop (so different gear ratios). But the curve will be different.

Anyway it wouldn't be bad, but I'm skeptical that it's true.

ERS deployment will no longer be via a driver pushing a button but be deployment controlled via software. So it will be like road car hybrids.
As has been reported, torque at the wheels will be much higher as well, which is why Pirelli wants wider rears to cope.

Edited by Timstr11, 02 July 2013 - 09:03.


#522 MadYarpen

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 07:21

Wider rears, more power, less downforce - I know there is this issue of balance between the power of the engine, and of the ERS, but I have to say this doesn't sound bad at all!

#523 Otaku

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 08:07

Wider rears, more power, less downforce - I know there is this issue of balance between the power of the engine, and of the ERS, but I have to say this doesn't sound bad at all!


Then you wake up and realize it's the FIA you're talking about... they always find the way to screw things that work. :drunk:

#524 David1976

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 08:58

According to AMuS the new engines will have up to 900 bhp in qualy and about 800bhp in race. So they would have more horses than current engines. Also torque would be around 600Nm versus current 350Nm. Numbers vary a little depending on manufacturer. So we might see powerful cars after all.

Pirelli (Hembery) said that those numbers are huge and will be a challenge for them. They also want to make wider rear tyres, but they are negotiating with teams that how wide.


Awesome!

It is the huge increase in torque that excites me. That should sort the men out from the boys!

#525 akshay380

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 09:29

Awesome!

It is the huge increase in torque that excites me. That should sort the men out from the boys!

Can you please explain this in short how that will work out? Is it because of torque at corner exit? Thanks in advance!

Edited by akshay380, 02 July 2013 - 09:30.


#526 OO7

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 09:32

ERS deployment will no longer be via a driver pushing a button but be deployment controlled via software. So it will be like road car hybrids.
As has been reported, torque at the wheels will be much higher as well, which is why Pirelli wants wider rears to cope.

I wonder if there'll be additional code that'll enable a driver to use the ERS tactically (for overtaking) where necessary.

#527 MadYarpen

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:48

Then you wake up and realize it's the FIA you're talking about... they always find the way to screw things that work. :drunk:

True. But one can hope...

#528 Jamiednm

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:52

Can you please explain this in short how that will work out? Is it because of torque at corner exit? Thanks in advance!


Anytime they have to put the power down, there will be a lot more 'push' from the car if this increase to 600 is actually going to happen.

#529 DrProzac

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 16:42

ERS deployment will no longer be via a driver pushing a button but be deployment controlled via software. So it will be like road car hybrids.
As has been reported, torque at the wheels will be much higher as well, which is why Pirelli wants wider rears to cope.

I know that, but the amount of energy stored and recovered from braking is still limited by the rules. The amount of energy recovered thought the MGUH won't be limited, though. The question is will it be enough.

The torque will be higher, but not in the same proportion as from the engine. A car with a redline of 18k rpm will have different gearing than a car with a redline at 15k rpm (and probably lower in practice, due to the fuel flow limit).

Edited by DrProzac, 02 July 2013 - 16:43.


#530 SR388

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 18:31

I went back and listened to some races from 1987. Did people complain about the sound the turbo cars made back then? They sound awfully similar to what these new ones are supposed to sound like.

#531 Henri Greuter

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 19:02

I went back and listened to some races from 1987. Did people complain about the sound the turbo cars made back then? They sound awfully similar to what these new ones are supposed to sound like.




There was of course no internet at that time so if there was resistance about the engine noise there was less of a platform to vent that disgust.
But as far as I can remember, among the people I saw and who were into racing there has never been that much complaints about the sounds of the turbocharged engines, though the Ferrari Flat 12 and the Matra V12 were rated more attractive.
But then you got he introduction of the V10 configuration and the ever increasing rpm levels of the engines which resulted into the screaming we know nowadays and ever increasing loudness.
And the younger generation of fans that never have been exposed to slower revving engines and thus can't appreciate that kind of sound use the Internet to bellow all their anger about the loss of those screaming contraptions they grew up with.

Speaking for myself, I liked those turbocharged V6's quite a bit, the more while it was possible to separate the sound of the different brands since all of them sounded different. With the recent V8's that was impossible for me to do since I had to protect my ears with earplugs and headphone to prevent a headblowing headache.
Those early V6s had a much less extreme bore to stroke ratio, and coudn't revv as fast, later on, when pneumatic operated valves were introduced the ratio became more oversquare and the engines revving faster.
But those early engines in particular had massive torque, also thanks to the longer stroke and they had a larger usable RPM range what made the engines more musical, at least for my ears.

Henri

#532 toofast

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:07

No way the engine will produce 900hp next year. 800 is very likely but realistically it will be around 750.

#533 bonjon1979a

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:32

The impression I got from that is that Honda is farther along than one would have thought. Rather ingenious way of working around the medieval test regs in F1 too!

Mulsanne Mike hadn't heard this rumor but I'm sure if anyone can get details on a "test" he can.


what are they going to test with? Can't use a mclaren as they're a competitor. Personally, I think teams/engine suppliers running throughout 2014 will accumulate far more data than honda will. Remember that Merc for example with be running 8 cars at every GP along with pre-season testing, young drivers tests and all the 'tyre tests' that'll start cropping up now. Believe me. It's much more of an advantage to be running for a year than not.

#534 Clatter

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 14:35

what are they going to test with? Can't use a mclaren as they're a competitor. Personally, I think teams/engine suppliers running throughout 2014 will accumulate far more data than honda will. Remember that Merc for example with be running 8 cars at every GP along with pre-season testing, young drivers tests and all the 'tyre tests' that'll start cropping up now. Believe me. It's much more of an advantage to be running for a year than not.


If they want to get track mileage then that's easy. There are any number of chassis that could be adapted, and they can test with Mac as long as it's a 2 year old car.

#535 bonjon1979a

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 14:48

If they want to get track mileage then that's easy. There are any number of chassis that could be adapted, and they can test with Mac as long as it's a 2 year old car.

So could any other team. Mercedes could us their 2012 car and pound around a track with their engine to their hearts content. I don't see what advantage Honda have here. In fact, I see that it's a disadvantage that they don't have a year running their engine in a competitive environment.

#536 Clatter

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 16:13

So could any other team. Mercedes could us their 2012 car and pound around a track with their engine to their hearts content. I don't see what advantage Honda have here. In fact, I see that it's a disadvantage that they don't have a year running their engine in a competitive environment.


I agree, but I don't think it will be a huge one.


#537 handel

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 15:23

When 2014 'power units' were announced a while back they were going to have 8 forward gears available. Is that still actually happening?

Edit: 99% sure that's still happening. Gonna be weird!

Edited by handel, 04 July 2013 - 15:24.


#538 ATM_Andy

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 15:39

When 2014 'power units' were announced a while back they were going to have 8 forward gears available. Is that still actually happening?

Edit: 99% sure that's still happening. Gonna be weird!


yup

#539 ATM_Andy

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 15:40

No way the engine will produce 900hp next year. 800 is very likely but realistically it will be around 750.



I wouldn't get too hung up on peak power,

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#540 Atic Atac

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 17:05

I wouldn't get too hung up on peak power,


Andy, over the last years i have had the feeling that cars are "underpowered" in relation to the availaible grip and downforce. Do you think things will change next year or remain more or less the same?

#541 Scotracer

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 17:50

Is the 100kg/hr enforced in qualifying?

#542 E.B.

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 17:58

Anytime they have to put the power down, there will be a lot more 'push' from the car if this increase to 600 is actually going to happen.


A lot more? Surely horsepower is the figure that matters - peak engine torque in isolation tells you nothing, my bog standard saloon car has more engine torque than an F1 car. Doesn't rev quite so high though!









#543 quaint

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 20:26

Is the 100kg/hr enforced in qualifying?


I think so. IIRC the fuel flow limit is the thing that sets the upper bound on engine power (as we all know, you can extract significantly more than that from a 1.6L turbocharged engine).

#544 F1ultimate

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 20:54

Is there a way to make fuel lighter but supercooling it?

#545 EMorris

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 21:59

Is there a way to make fuel lighter but supercooling it?


No, temperature would affect the density of the fuel and therefore the volume it would occupy but not its mass. Besides I believe there is a regulation limiting the temperature of fuel onboard the car

#546 midgrid

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 22:49

Teams used to routinely supercool their fuel during the fuel-limited turbo era in the 1980s, but this was indeed carried out to reduce its volume.

#547 BillBald

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 00:10

When 2014 'power units' were announced a while back they were going to have 8 forward gears available. Is that still actually happening?

Edit: 99% sure that's still happening. Gonna be weird!


The way I understood it, they won't have 8 gears available in the races. In some races they will use the bottom 7 gears, in others they will use the top 7.

Or I might have got it completely wrong...



#548 Scotracer

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 08:37

Teams used to routinely supercool their fuel during the fuel-limited turbo era in the 1980s, but this was indeed carried out to reduce its volume.


As far as I remember, they used to run Toulene in a gelled state that was then heated before entering the fuel pumps?

#549 dau

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 08:46

The way I understood it, they won't have 8 gears available in the races. In some races they will use the bottom 7 gears, in others they will use the top 7.

Or I might have got it completely wrong...

They'll have 8 forward gears plus one reverse, but the ratios are fixed. They have to nominate the ratios at the first event and run the whole season with those. Only in 2014 they are allowed to re-nominate the ratios once.

#550 handel

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 08:58

They'll have 8 forward gears plus one reverse, but the ratios are fixed. They have to nominate the ratios at the first event and run the whole season with those. Only in 2014 they are allowed to re-nominate the ratios once.


They get a number of different sets of ratios at the moment so although they are fixed they can elect to run set A in Monaco and set C in Monza. Does anyone know how many 'sets' they get in 2014?

If it's 1 as you seem to imply this will be very interesting! Will aid overtaking no doubt as nobody at the slower tracks is going to redline in 8th there if that gear is set for 220mph.