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2014 Power Units


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#101 Mc_Silver

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 04:28

Just a quick question, are the aero rules changing in 2014 along with these power units, or is it the current rules?


AFAIK, Aero rules stay the same.. Changes are mostly mechanical.

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#102 Zava

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 06:50

AFAIK, Aero rules stay the same.. Changes are mostly mechanical.

most of the aero changes will happen:
http://somersf1.blog...on-changes.html

#103 jstrains

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 07:23

Here more HIGH-RES pics of the engine
http://www.auto-moto...fotoshow_item=1

#104 sheepgobba

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 07:38

I kinda feel F1 will slowly die from here onwards.

#105 itsademo

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 10:19

Nonsense. There would always be someone willing to supply engines. If Renault etc.walked away then Cosworth would have filled the gap and actually been able to make some money from the venture. This new generation of engines will have no road relevance, just as it has been for decades.


perhaps you should read the article then as clearly the people doing the job disagree with you.

This aligns the sport far more with what is going on in the road car world and AMG Mercedes HPP MD Andy Cowell says that he is having far more conversations with his opposite numbers in Stuttgart on the road car side, who are also covering the same ground and are looking to transfer the learnings from F1
http://www.jamesalle...change-in-2014/

.



#106 Clatter

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 10:24

perhaps you should read the article then as clearly the people doing the job disagree with you.

.


And I'll believe them when they actually show some sort of real carry over of something specifically designed for F1 to a road car. I won't hold my breath though.

#107 itsademo

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 10:32

Why should we be happy when we haven't heard them for ourselves? What has been heard so far is with an engine sitting in a workshop and the finished product out on track could sound vastly different.


So why are you gettng so hot under the collar when you havent heard them yet then?
seams to be, you think its ok to be unhappy without hearing them but not ok to be relaxed about it when people who have heard them say they sound ok.
Atleast the latter have some experience of the engines unlike the former

#108 Clatter

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 10:39

So why are you gettng so hot under the collar when you havent heard them yet then?
seams to be, you think its ok to be unhappy without hearing them but not ok to be relaxed about it when people who have heard them say they sound ok.
Atleast the latter have some experience of the engines unlike the former


I'm not getting hot under the collar, merely pointing out that hearing something on a test bed doesn't equate to the finished product on track.

#109 itsademo

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 10:40

And I'll believe them when they actually show some sort of real carry over of something specifically designed for F1 to a road car. I won't hold my breath though.

so unless they take a complete part off an F1 car and put it directly on a road going car you will keep on saying its of no relevance?

Shame you ignore things like sequential gear boxes that are used on many road going cars and the many many different ideas that have been developed on F1 cars then move on to road going cars.
Or what about Williams who have taken their Ker's system and made a company to market it to the manufactures or the fact Porsche now use that Ker's system fitted to one of their road going cars.
The cross over is clearly seen you just need to have an open mind and eyes to see more often than not its not complete parts but ideas and knowledge that is passed over.
But if you are not willing to accept someone working on the project saying their race and road car devisions are talking and sharing the same information because its relevant to their road car too it seams you will ignore any proof that does not fit in with your preconceived opinion, which is a shame

Edited by itsademo, 13 January 2013 - 10:42.


#110 Clatter

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 10:50

so unless they take a complete part off an F1 car and put it directly on a road going car you will keep on saying its of no relevance?

Shame you ignore things like sequential gear boxes that are used on many road going cars and the many many different ideas that have been developed on F1 cars then move on to road going cars.
Or what about Williams who have taken their Ker's system and made a company to market it to the manufactures or the fact Porsche now use that Ker's system fitted to one of their road going cars.
The cross over is clearly seen you just need to have an open mind and eyes to see more often than not its not complete parts but ideas and knowledge that is passed over.
But if you are not willing to accept someone working on the project saying their race and road car devisions are talking and sharing the same information because its relevant to their road car too it seams you will ignore any proof that does not fit in with your preconceived opinion, which is a shame


You seem to have fallen into the trap of thinking that F1 thinks up all this new stuff themselves. They don't, they take ideas from other areas and develop them for racing use.

#111 KiloWatt

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 10:51

And I'll believe them when they actually show some sort of real carry over of something specifically designed for F1 to a road car. I won't hold my breath though.


Exhibit A
Posted Image

This aligns the sport far more with what is going on in the road car world and AMG Mercedes HPP MD Andy Cowell says that he is having far more conversations with his opposite numbers in Stuttgart on the road car side, who are also covering the same ground and are looking to transfer the learnings from F1.

http://www.jamesalle...change-in-2014/

When Mercedes bosses came up with the idea of a high performance electrical car, they asked for concepts from external and internal sources. The winning concept came from the F1 boys. Using the amassed knowledge of working on KERS in F1, the boys at Brixworth have created a car which is set to become the new benchmark in terms of energy density.

http://willthef1jour...-it-is-awesome/

Now breathe.

#112 olliek88

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 10:55

At first i was a massive sceptic about these new "power units" with the same concern that 99% of you guys/gals on here have, sound, will they kill off the great sound you associate with an F1 car.

Now i'm a little more open minded and hopeful, a lot of the journos who attended that Mercedes gig had nothing but good things to say & this was only from a fairly early iteration engine that was blowing into a muffler on a dyno, i think once a full exhaust has been bolted to it and its being driven in anger it will sound better and louder than what the folks heard at Mercedes. I think they'll sound good, different, but still good.

In a ideal world F1 would have 3L V12's revving to 25,000 or something insane but its not an ideal world. For F1 to even exist let alone continue to operate at the expense and size that it currently does you have to garner interest from investors and manufacturers, the only way to do this is to make it relevant to their needs and products so they can then a) learn from it and b) sell it to someone.

Those who seriously still expect F1 to be like it was 10/15 years ago are out of touch and need to move on, just like F1 is now.

#113 itsademo

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 11:13

Exhibit A
Posted Image


http://www.jamesalle...change-in-2014/


http://willthef1jour...-it-is-awesome/

Now breathe.

side note
do you realise not only is that the fastest electric car in the world but also the fastest ever AMG?
petrol may be the fuel of now but one thing is certain it will not be the fuel of the future.
We can all moan and groan but the fact is the world moves on and so must F1 otherwise it will be consigned to the history books just like everything else that refused to evolve

#114 DrProzac

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 11:17

perhaps you should read the article then as clearly the people doing the job disagree with you.

Sure they do, "F1 is road car relevant" is the official line. Maybe if you buy a hybrid super car it will somewhat be. :)

@Up: yeah, I wonder how much it weights, how long distance can it cover when driven properly and what's the top speed.

Edited by DrProzac, 13 January 2013 - 11:20.


#115 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:25

And I'll believe them when they actually show some sort of real carry over of something specifically designed for F1 to a road car. I won't hold my breath though.


I don't think that tangible products appearing are the only proof of relevance. The interchange between road car guys and F1 guys could, e.g., happen in the areas of the science, measurement methods, or similar, and might show up in road cars in unrecognizable ways.

#116 Clatter

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:29

I don't think that tangible products appearing are the only proof of relevance. The interchange between road car guys and F1 guys could, e.g., happen in the areas of the science, measurement methods, or similar, and might show up in road cars in unrecognizable ways.


That would just be the result of refining existing technologies, not something designed with only F1 in mind.


#117 Lennat

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:57

In words, presented like that, "everything is fine".

To the Potential New Fan, it doesn't mean anything.

The potential new fan of 2005 learned "19,000 rpm? Half a billion in development? Nearly 900 hp? 10 cylinders? Mystery surrounding more open engine/chassis/aero development? Cool! ",
then, the Potential New Fan goes to his first race in person - and hears 19,000 rpm and more torque revving from *a mile away*.

He's set, F1 has made a new fan.

Now - 15,000 rpm? "Well, that's kinda like a street bike. Don't ALMS cars rev that high?"... "650 hp without batteries? Johnny over south side has a Supra with a turbo that does that... My dad had a Vega with a blown 350 that did that".... "They can't make the engines better during the season...? Kinda like NASCAR? They all have to use the same geometry and basic design? The chassis has to be the same dimensions? They can't develop the aero except here and there? Don't LMP cars have a more open situation?"...

Then, at the first race - provided the Potential New Fan has made it that far, and is willing to pay the extortion fee - "yeah, the cars sound cool when they go by. Kinda like an IRL car".

"Whoopee".

The cars should be pushing 1,000 hp, V10's/12s, they should be louder than anything outside of a TF car and a military jet, out accelerate the most exotic street car, and should be allowed to be developed during the season.

IMO. YMMV (unless you're in F1 2014....).


/ aside: a journalist, listening to a *recording* of an engine *on a dyno*, without the *final exhaust*, in a *confined space* - is not exactly a way of convincing me "hey, these things sound JUST AS LOUD AND IMPRESSIVE AS THE OLD V10's! Rolling Stone thought Led Zeppelin sucked, you know.


Well said. F1 cars should CRUSH everything else. Of course an F1 car will be much faster than a spiced up Supra even if it doesn't have any more power, but it should CRUSH IT IN EVERY WAY!

Ten years ago an F1 car had about twice the power of a very fast (like M5 or so) road car, and something like 50 percent more power than a proper super car (like an Enzo or top of the line Lambo). The next Ferrari Enzo will have about 920 horsepower (800 from the V12, 120 from KERS), so it will have more power from the petrol engine alone than the F1 cars will have IN TOTAL FOR A LIMITED TIME every lap. This is stupid. I might not watch F1 next year, and I'm dead serious.

#118 Tombstone

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 13:25

Well said. F1 cars should CRUSH everything else. Of course an F1 car will be much faster than a spiced up Supra even if it doesn't have any more power, but it should CRUSH IT IN EVERY WAY!

Ten years ago an F1 car had about twice the power of a very fast (like M5 or so) road car, and something like 50 percent more power than a proper super car (like an Enzo or top of the line Lambo). The next Ferrari Enzo will have about 920 horsepower (800 from the V12, 120 from KERS), so it will have more power from the petrol engine alone than the F1 cars will have IN TOTAL FOR A LIMITED TIME every lap. This is stupid. I might not watch F1 next year, and I'm dead serious.


Bye then.

F1's been around for over 60 years and hasn't always utilised engines more powerful by the percentages you've mentioned. In fact at times they've been less powerful - albeit mainly during the 1.5 na era.

Indeed F1 cars haven't always been the quickest around certain circuits compared to other racing formulae.

Edited by Tombstone, 13 January 2013 - 13:34.


#119 itsademo

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 13:38

Sure they do, "F1 is road car relevant" is the official line. Maybe if you buy a hybrid super car it will somewhat be. :)

@Up: yeah, I wonder how much it weights, how long distance can it cover when driven properly and what's the top speed.

top speed is in excess of 200MPH and as i stated it is the fastest road car AMG have ever been involved with
Sorry i cant confirm distance but it is in the hundreds of miles therefore useable in every day situations


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#120 dau

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 14:07

Well said. F1 cars should CRUSH everything else. Of course an F1 car will be much faster than a spiced up Supra even if it doesn't have any more power, but it should CRUSH IT IN EVERY WAY!

Ten years ago an F1 car had about twice the power of a very fast (like M5 or so) road car, and something like 50 percent more power than a proper super car (like an Enzo or top of the line Lambo). The next Ferrari Enzo will have about 920 horsepower (800 from the V12, 120 from KERS), so it will have more power from the petrol engine alone than the F1 cars will have IN TOTAL FOR A LIMITED TIME every lap. This is stupid. I might not watch F1 next year, and I'm dead serious.

Not sure about 10 years ago, but 8 years ago an F1 car had about ten percent less power than a certain proper supercar. A further 10 years in the past, there even was a van with more power than an F1 car.

#121 DrProzac

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 14:22

You can always make a road car that will have more power than a F1 car. Which doesn't mean that a F1 car shouldn't have a proper power figure (which should be noticeably bigger than most super cars, at least).

top speed is in excess of 200MPH and as i stated it is the fastest road car AMG have ever been involved with
Sorry i cant confirm distance but it is in the hundreds of miles therefore useable in every day situations

The distance is 250 km or miles, but I bet it's when driven slowly. I genuinely wonder how it would compare driven fast to a AMG with a powerful petrol engine. If the top speed is true, than it's nice - the power is big enough, though electric cars always struggled on this field.
But I don't believe the weight is anywhere comparable to a petrol engine car. So the car is probably "the fastest AMG" but when accelerating on a straight thanks to big torque and other good characteristics of it's electric engine(s).

I also wonder how big really was the impact of their involvement in KERS on that car's technology.

Edited by DrProzac, 13 January 2013 - 14:25.


#122 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 14:57

That would just be the result of refining existing technologies, not something designed with only F1 in mind.


So? It's still "relevance".

#123 Scotracer

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 15:35

They obviously brought in the fuel-flow limit so the manufacturers would go after thermal efficiency increases over volumetric efficiency...but I get the sneaking suspicion that flow limit will be decreased as the years go on.

Hopefully at least the ERS power output is suitably increased to more than compensate. I want a combined 800BHP for the entirety of a lap. That's good F1 power. Oh and no more weight increases.



#124 Lennat

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 15:48

They obviously brought in the fuel-flow limit so the manufacturers would go after thermal efficiency increases over volumetric efficiency...but I get the sneaking suspicion that flow limit will be decreased as the years go on.

Hopefully at least the ERS power output is suitably increased to more than compensate. I want a combined 800BHP for the entirety of a lap. That's good F1 power. Oh and no more weight increases.


+1

My earlier post may have given the impression that I only care about power, and that is not the case. But to only have 600 bhp for the majority of a lap isn't good for F1. Especially since the cars are so sophisticated in every other way. They may be able to LAP A TRACK very fast, but it doesn't make them as exiting and brutal as older cars.

#125 Lennat

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 15:55

They obviously brought in the fuel-flow limit so the manufacturers would go after thermal efficiency increases over volumetric efficiency...but I get the sneaking suspicion that flow limit will be decreased as the years go on.

Hopefully at least the ERS power output is suitably increased to more than compensate. I want a combined 800BHP for the entirety of a lap. That's good F1 power. Oh and no more weight increases.


I actually LIKE the idea of a fuel flow limit, but it is obvious that it is set too low. Just increase it with something like 20 percent and everything would be fine. We would have just as much power as before and still better fuel efficiency. To have to GIVE UP POWER in order to save fuel isn't impressive at all, and only gives the impression that they are castrating the cars.

#126 Clatter

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 17:46

They obviously brought in the fuel-flow limit so the manufacturers would go after thermal efficiency increases over volumetric efficiency...but I get the sneaking suspicion that flow limit will be decreased as the years go on.

Hopefully at least the ERS power output is suitably increased to more than compensate. I want a combined 800BHP for the entirety of a lap. That's good F1 power. Oh and no more weight increases.


I'm sure the intent is to decrease both the fuel flow and the load, but that can only happen if they are allowed to upgrade the engines.

#127 r4mses

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 18:52

I kinda feel F1 will slowly die from here onwards.


that's been said since years decades.

#128 Scotracer

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 21:15

I'm sure the intent is to decrease both the fuel flow and the load, but that can only happen if they are allowed to upgrade the engines.


Their intent could be to limit ERS research costs by time restricting power increases. If every 3 years for instance they increase by 50kW the ERS and at the same time reduce the fuel flow by a corresponding amount.

#129 ANF

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 03:08

Now - 15,000 rpm? "Well, that's kinda like a street bike. Don't ALMS cars rev that high?"

Or it's kinda like the 14,300 rpm Renault RS6 behind Ayrton Senna.

http://youtu.be/smRQ2YnAfv0?t=3m5s

#130 rodlamas

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 10:19

The 161bhp at 33.3 secs per lap is a regulation limit such as the 82bhp at 6.67 secs per lap of 2009-2013?

#131 dau

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 14:35

The 161bhp at 33.3 secs per lap is a regulation limit such as the 82bhp at 6.67 secs per lap of 2009-2013?

There's no time limitation if that's what you mean. There's an energy limitation of 4MJ and a power limitation of 120kW=161bhp - so if you'd use the full 120kW, you could do so for 33s. If you use just 60kW=80hp, you could do this for 66s and so on. Well, theoretically at least.

Edited by dau, 14 January 2013 - 14:36.


#132 Tombstone

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 16:07

I kinda feel F1 will slowly die from here onwards.


Yes, because F1 has only been around for ~20 years.

#133 7MGTEsup

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 16:25

All the people moaning about the noise, go and watch a top fuel dragster. A formula 1 car from any era sounds like a strimmer in comparison. Seems to me like most of you will never be happy no matter what they do.

And 1.6l turbo V6's are far more real world relevant than 2.4l V8's.

Any of you noticed that even BMW have put a turbo charged unit in what has always been a normally aspirated car (M3).

Turbo's are very relevant to todays production cars. Look at how many cars are shunning larger capacity normally aspirated units in favour of about a 30% reduction in capacity but about a 20% increase in torque.

Look at the new BMW 1 series it produces 320lbs/ft of torque from 1250rpm!!!! show me a normally aspirated engine this side of 7 liters that does that?

#134 peroa

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 17:21

All the people moaning about the noise, go and watch a top fuel dragster. A formula 1 car from any era sounds like a strimmer in comparison. Seems to me like most of you will never be happy no matter what they do.

And 1.6l turbo V6's are far more real world relevant than 2.4l V8's.

Any of you noticed that even BMW have put a turbo charged unit in what has always been a normally aspirated car (M3).

Turbo's are very relevant to todays production cars. Look at how many cars are shunning larger capacity normally aspirated units in favour of about a 30% reduction in capacity but about a 20% increase in torque.

Look at the new BMW 1 series it produces 320lbs/ft of torque from 1250rpm!!!! show me a normally aspirated engine this side of 7 liters that does that?

Yeah, and they fake the sound of most if not all new engines through their stereo, because without it they sound like a lawnmower.
Hey, and idea for FOM production...

Edited by peroa, 14 January 2013 - 17:21.


#135 DrProzac

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 17:21

There's no time limitation if that's what you mean. There's an energy limitation of 4MJ and a power limitation of 120kW=161bhp - so if you'd use the full 120kW, you could do so for 33s. If you use just 60kW=80hp, you could do this for 66s and so on. Well, theoretically at least.

In essence, it's exactly the same as before, but the limits are higher. And most probably KERS will be throttle operated.

When KERS fails, it will probably end the race for the driver. People who miss unreliable engines may be happy, though people who miss spectacular engine blow-ups won't.

Edited by DrProzac, 14 January 2013 - 17:23.


#136 Gfhuus

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 22:00

I'm kinda wishing they'd went the I4 route instead of the V6. Then there might actually be a reason to whine.

#137 olliek88

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 22:55

In essence, it's exactly the same as before, but the limits are higher. And most probably KERS will be throttle operated.

When KERS fails, it will probably end the race for the driver. People who miss unreliable engines may be happy, though people who miss spectacular engine blow-ups won't.


I think i'm right in saying the ERS, the actual "engine" and all the associated ancillaries are counted as the "power unit" as a whole, so if ERS fails then thats it for the whole unit, it can't be used at all if one component of the power unit fails, i think its an attempt to increase the life of some of the smaller parts/ancillaries and thus save costs, with only 5 power units a season your in trouble if there's a fundamental reliability issue thats for sure! (IndyCar 2012 & endless penalties anyone?)

I'm not 100% on this so feel free to correct me if necessary.

#138 DrProzac

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 23:24

That may be true, I forgot about the reliability constraints in the rules. Interesting issue, is the (K)ERS a part of the engine according to them now? Anyway I think they're pushing it to unreasonable levels and I'm afraid that drivers will have to nurse their engines way too much. But we will see.

I think the rules allow some minor repairs, but when something fails it's usually not enough.

Gfhuus, 80s turbos used to be also I4. I don't think the layout is a real problem (though I'd wish they make it free), lack of power is imho. Though we can hope that V6s will sound better than I4s would.

Edited by DrProzac, 14 January 2013 - 23:26.


#139 Crossmax

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 23:39

There's no time limitation if that's what you mean. There's an energy limitation of 4MJ and a power limitation of 120kW=161bhp - so if you'd use the full 120kW, you could do so for 33s. If you use just 60kW=80hp, you could do this for 66s and so on. Well, theoretically at least.

33 seconds, that is probably more time than a driver spends on the throttle around Monaco. Probably not far from the time spent on full throttle around Interlagos either. (K)ERS will go from being a boost, to being something that will be deployed up to seventh gear out of every corner, and with it, the tactical aspect of the system. I must say, this part of the 2014 regs seems contra-productive if the aim is to provide a better show. The way KERS is used today is pretty spot on in my opinion, a shame that they are altering the regs.

Edited by Crossmax, 14 January 2013 - 23:39.


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#140 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 02:46

Chariot racing was quite popular but it still died out.

Forms of chariot racing still exist. :confused: It tends to be held at places where they have greyhound racing, and it is a bit dangerous I guess (like all horse racing).

I am not sure it is quite as prestigious as the great horse races and I don't think you will find the Queen of England there...

#141 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 02:49

The next Ferrari Enzo will have about 920 horsepower (800 from the V12, 120 from KERS), so it will have more power from the petrol engine alone than the F1 cars will have IN TOTAL FOR A LIMITED TIME every lap. This is stupid. I might not watch F1 next year, and I'm dead serious.

Hmmm good point.

Mercedes A class

Renault Clio

Fiat Panda

There's your problem. :well:

If F1 was populated by pure supercar manufacturers, then your ideas might have a chance.

#142 sheepgobba

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 03:28

Hmmm good point.

Mercedes A class

Renault Clio

Fiat Panda

There's your problem. :well:

If F1 was populated by pure supercar manufacturers, then your ideas might have a chance.


See the thing is Ferrari and Mclaren make high-performance vehicles, even Mercedes does to an extent as well. This whole argument of F1 being more car-orientated/related to road cars is somewhat odd to me. Ironically, McLaren and Ferrari from their F1 experience makes high-performance vehicles, which can only be afforded by a specific. Majority of the cars made by these manufacturers with their technology is not transferred to low-end models

#143 KiloWatt

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 04:58

Majority of the cars made by these manufacturers with their technology is not transferred to low-end models


Yet. Eventually it will as it become less expensive. And with the current emission legislation being what it is (and getting stricter), I think we'll see more and more technology transfer.

I must admit, as an engineer (and technology enthusiast) I love the new regulations. It's the 21st century. These power units (or whatever they're called) are massively more advanced than the old V8s that we currently have. I'm just pissed the ERS regs are still too prohibitive.

Ofcourse I love the sound of a massive powerfull engine (to the point that when I'm driving and I see something powerfull coming on, I insist on everyone opening their windows) and I love the sound of the V10s.

But you can get nostalgic about the sound of a Spitfire, thought that doesn't make it better than a Eurofighter. Times are changing, adapt or you'll end up a grumpy old fart unable to work a iPod. And we all know at least one of those.

Edited by KiloWatt, 15 January 2013 - 05:00.


#144 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 07:35

Or it's kinda like the 14,300 rpm Renault RS6 behind Ayrton Senna.


... that was 3.5l, V10 and put out 850 hp - and didn't stop at 14,300 because a RULE said so, but because *that was the engineering limit at the time*.


Edited by Rubens Hakkamacher, 15 January 2013 - 07:36.


#145 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 07:39

And 1.6l turbo V6's are far more real world relevant than 2.4l V8's.


No it's not, a souped up Prius is about the only thing relevant to the real world. The future for most street cars is electric, not a V6 turbo.



#146 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 07:51

The problem is that the essence of F1 has gone from pushing engineering limits to make the car go faster, in the most clever way possible, to being "quasi-road car "relevant"".

If they really, *really* wanted to do something for the Good of Auto Driving Humankind, they'd leave the electric rules wide open. Therefore we'd get the benefit of the tons of $$$$$$$$ F1 spends on developing better batteries, motors. Say they can't top out faster than 210 mph for safety reasons, and otherwise let them go for it.

*That* would be a "modern F1 formula with road car relevance". A crazy turbo on a teeny V6? Turbines make more mechanical efficiency sense.

F1 is an anachronism, like the gladiatorial nature of American football and the primitive, simplistic hitting of a leather ball with a wooden baseball bat, or kicking a balloon of dead cow flesh around. I want it to stick around until I'm an old codger, but it's not the way it's going.

Because, quite simply, the new formula DOES NOT capture the imagination, nor does it excite the senses, AND in the 21st century F1 has to compete with a LOT of entertaining distractions. It's really a formula for fading away, and that ticks me off.

#147 KiloWatt

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:11

The problem is that the essence of F1 has gone from pushing engineering limits to make the car go faster, in the most clever way possible, to being "quasi-road car "relevant"".

If they really, *really* wanted to do something for the Good of Auto Driving Humankind, they'd leave the electric rules wide open. Therefore we'd get the benefit of the tons of $$$$$$$$ F1 spends on developing better batteries, motors. Say they can't top out faster than 210 mph for safety reasons, and otherwise let them go for it.

*That* would be a "modern F1 formula with road car relevance". A crazy turbo on a teeny V6? Turbines make more mechanical efficiency sense.

F1 is an anachronism, like the gladiatorial nature of American football and the primitive, simplistic hitting of a leather ball with a wooden baseball bat, or kicking a balloon of dead cow flesh around. I want it to stick around until I'm an old codger, but it's not the way it's going.

Because, quite simply, the new formula DOES NOT capture the imagination, nor does it excite the senses, AND in the 21st century F1 has to compete with a LOT of entertaining distractions. It's really a formula for fading away, and that ticks me off.


Sure, they can open the budget limits if you enjoy watching 10 cars driving around the circuit. The reality is only a few teams would surive if that's the case. It's just not feasible in the current economic climate. Now sure, this is only opinion, but I think the research that went on with KERS has already contibuted massively to motoring companies involved.

With all due respect, I'm afraid the new formula does capture your imagination. But it does capture the imagine of a lot of other people and I'm sure it will the technologically inclined new generation, such as myself.

As I stated before, I massively enjoy the sound a high performance engine and I agree with you, the newer ones probably won't be as load (due to the physical reasons you mentioned before). But I'm willing to take a leap of faith and actually believe the people that has heard it and trust they will still sound amazing.

You mentioned you're a musician. You, most of everyone, should be able to appreciate that an instrument played softer and with more finesse will sound so much better than a rookie clumsily blowing the shit out of a trumpet. Sure, the rookie engages your senses, but the pro engages your emotion.

Edited by KiloWatt, 15 January 2013 - 09:13.


#148 Rinehart

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:22

Because, quite simply, the new formula DOES NOT capture the imagination, nor does it excite the senses, AND in the 21st century F1 has to compete with a LOT of entertaining distractions. It's really a formula for fading away, and that ticks me off.


How many races per season do you actually attend, because none of this is going to matter a dot on TV?
As long as the cars can lap at about the pace they do now, are loud, have plenty of power, can overtake with difficulty, can get a bit sideways and look amazingly quick through places like Becketts, it should be fine.
I think you are over-reacting, and like most traditionalist arguments about "change", there will be no moaning after a couple of races.
F1 has to go with the times. It would look a bit stupid if they still did 130mph, had no seatbelts and wore leather helmets.

#149 7MGTEsup

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 16:19

No it's not, a souped up Prius is about the only thing relevant to the real world. The future for most street cars is electric, not a V6 turbo.


Unless they make a huge and I mean huge leap in battery technology the electric car will be nothing more than a side show to small capacity GDI forced induction engines.

Electric cars for all the hype are massively in efficent and there is no such thing as Zero emissions. Power has to come from somewhere.

#150 Clatter

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 16:42

Unless they make a huge and I mean huge leap in battery technology the electric car will be nothing more than a side show to small capacity GDI forced induction engines.

Electric cars for all the hype are massively in efficent and there is no such thing as Zero emissions. Power has to come from somewhere.


Tend to agree. Personally I see hydrogen as the fuel of the future.