55 replies to this topic

[Kart15]

Awesome idea of brazilian Ford Motors for the ad of the new Ford Fusion: bring back the two rold rivals for a revenge, epic:

[Tim Murray]

What did they do 16 years ago?

[Emery0323]

Piquet has really aged, if I didn't know who it was, I wouldn't have recognized him.

[john aston]

Piquet has really aged, if I didn't know who it was, I wouldn't have recognized him.

Actually he is the same age as I am. nearly to the day. Obviously I still look just the same as I did in Stowe Grandstand '87. I wish...

[Ray Bell]

Sit in the barber's chair long enough and you're sure to see grey stuff falling on the floor...

But it's true that some age more than others.

One driver here used to have a habit of 'adjusting' or 'scratching' his cods all the time. I saw him at the Tasman Revival meeting and wasn't sure who he was, but then he reached down and had a scratch. Okaayyy...

[GrumpyOldMan]

Barber's chair?? Yes, I think I remember that. For some of us, grey stuff falling to the floor is aspirational...

Nelson's Indy accident would have put a few lines on his face - I'm sure it would have added half a century to mine.

At least Noige has a chance this time, using a helicopter instead of a car

Edited by GrumpyOldMan, 15 January 2013 - 19:32.

[alansart]

At least Noige has a chance this time, using a helicopter instead of a car

Give em a couple of Williams and let them slug it out....

....my version of Mansell & Piquet heading into Stowe

[Tony Matthews]

That's nice, Alan!

[Ray Bell]

One could be very nostalgic about those days...

Even if we know they were way too close to these days.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Lovely image, Alan.

But can I be a rivet-counter and say they look like the 86 Williams, not the 87?

Perhaps "Mansell & Piquet heading into Hawthorn" instead?

Not that it matters - any excuse to show the cars from 83 - 88 is fine by me. There's a clip on Youtube of Nelson's Brands pole from 86. Made the hair on the back of my neck stand up even 27 years on in a way today's Noddy cars never could.

[Emery0323]

But can I be a rivet-counter and say they look like the 86 Williams, not the 87?

The larger, triangular-shaped front endplates were unique to the 1987 car.

[Lee Nicolle]

Piquet has really aged, if I didn't know who it was, I wouldn't have recognized him.

Nelson has aged, though still trim, Nige is fatter in the face, and I guess a bit bigger all over. Though it was 25+ years ago. Scarey isnt it how time flies.

[ellrosso]

Not exactly the same I'm afraid , but same corner, same year at least.

[Emery0323]

Not exactly the same I'm afraid , but same corner, same year at least.

I'll stand corrected - the triangular front end-plates appeared in late-season for the GPs of Mexico and Australia in '86, but then appear to have been on the Williams cars for all of 1987.

For the British GP, at least, they were only on the cars in 1987.

Edited by Emery0323, 16 January 2013 - 05:43.

[GrumpyOldMan]

I was thinking more about the air intakes on the sidepods. Until now I'd thought they were only on the 87 cars, but these pictures clearly show Mansell's car with them (although Piquet's is in more "standard" 86 configuration). But googling images of the Aussie GP in 86 show these on Piquet's car as well! Williams must have added them (along with the front wing sideplates) as a late season upgrade. I was obviously too engrossed in the race itself to notice aesthetics like that..

Still can't believe it's over 26 years since that day. Nelson's early spin, Nigel's circumspect (for once!) drive, Keke's last hoorah, Prost lurking - the first 60 laps or so were like a chess game until all hell broke loose with 20 laps left.

[Tony Matthews]

I don't know if this helps...

[Emery0323]

Still can't believe it's over 26 years since that day. Nelson's early spin, Nigel's circumspect (for once!) drive, Keke's last hoorah, Prost lurking - the first 60 laps or so were like a chess game until all hell broke loose with 20 laps left.

Yes, it occurred to me recently that the Mid/late 1980's battles of Prost/Piquet/Senna/Mansell were over a quarter-century ago - exactly 1/2 a lifetime in my case

[alansart]

I think I got pretty close

[SEdward]

I've often wondered about Adelaide '86, and just how Williams managed not to win the title with one of their drivers. They must have done it on purpose.

Didn't Piquet pit eariler than expected with shot tyres? Shouldn't the Williams crew have called in Mansell to pit and change rubber at that point? Wouldn't that have allowed Nigel to finish in a points-scoring position and win the title, even if he didn't win the race?

I still find it quite remarkable that Prost won that race and the 1986 championship, especially with a fuel gauge that showed empty for the last few laps...

And as another member has already noted, it was just about one half of a lifetime ago. But the memories of that early morning in front of the TV are still vivid.

Edward

[nmansellfan]

And as another member has already noted, it was just about one half of a lifetime ago. But the memories of that early morning in front of the TV are still vivid.

Edward

Same for me, and it's the first proper memory I have of watching a GP on television (i'm told I watched them from much earlier than the age of 8, at the time of the '86 finale, but thats the first one I can properly remember the race venue and the year). Thinking back I must have watched the daytime repeat of the race though, as my memory coincides with bartering my parents - for the 300th time that year already - that I wanted the Le Mans Scalextric set for Christmas that year, the one with the gold and silver Porsche 911's and the acres of track, while watching Nige's title hopes go up in a shower of sparks and flying rubber. Funny what you remember, isn't it?

Edited by nmansellfan, 16 January 2013 - 17:58.

[GrumpyOldMan]

I think I got pretty close

Yes - closer than I thought. I've just looked back at the GP highlights from the race, and neither Williams had the air intakes for that race.

So well done!

[GrumpyOldMan]

I've often wondered about Adelaide '86, and just how Williams managed not to win the title with one of their drivers. They must have done it on purpose.

Didn't Piquet pit eariler than expected with shot tyres? Shouldn't the Williams crew have called in Mansell to pit and change rubber at that point? Wouldn't that have allowed Nigel to finish in a points-scoring position and win the title, even if he didn't win the race?

I still find it quite remarkable that Prost won that race and the 1986 championship, especially with a fuel gauge that showed empty for the last few laps...

And as another member has already noted, it was just about one half of a lifetime ago. But the memories of that early morning in front of the TV are still vivid.

Edward

From memory (so could be a load of old rubbish):

I don't think the plan was for anyone to run through without stopping. But I think Prost had an early stop for a puncture, Goodyear had a look at the tyres and thought that a non-stop run would be possible.

It looked ok until Rosberg's and then Mansell's tyre failures. Piquet was called in acouple of laps later as a precaution, and I think his tyres were found to be ok and would have lasted the race. The 2 tyre failures were just coincidence or maybe a flaw in the batch. Prost of course had already stopped so had no worries apart from his critical fuel. Luckily for him, his gauge was accurate and he judged his pace perfectly to the fuel he had left, just spluttering on the final corner. Another lap and Piquet would have had him. Mind you, if Piquet hadn't spun earlier he would have been much closer and would have been past Prost with plenty of laps to spare.

[Tim Murray]

Mind you, if Piquet hadn't spun earlier he would have been much closer and would have been past Prost with plenty of laps to spare.

... and thus become World Champion.

[Emery0323]

I think I got pretty close

Yes! But do I see a RED #6 on Piquet's car ??

[alansart]

Yes! But do I see a RED #6 on Piquet's car ??

I know. It should be white

[D-Type]

I've just realised - if Mansell had car number 5 and Piquet had number 6 does that suggest that Mansell was the team's official No. 1 driver?

[Tim Murray]

Rosberg had been #6 at Williams for several years, so when Mansell arrived he took over the vacant #5. Similarly, when Piquet arrived at the start of 1986 he took over the #6 vacated by Rosberg. I don't think Williams ever placed any significance on driver number order.

[Emery0323]

Rosberg had been #6 at Williams for several years, so when Mansell arrived he took over the vacant #5. Similarly, when Piquet arrived at the start of 1986 he took over the #6 vacated by Rosberg. I don't think Williams ever placed any significance on driver number order.

I think that's correct that the team management placed no particular significance on the numbering.

I do vaguely recall reading a story on the Mansell-Piquet rivalry published at the time (maybe in R&T? or Motorsport?) that Piquet felt he should have had the lower number,
but they'd already registered it to Mansell and then Frank Williams was laid up due to his road accident and the matter wasn't pursued.
It was supposedly one of the petty irritants that made Piquet resent Mansell.

[GrumpyOldMan]

I think that's correct that the team management placed no particular significance on the numbering.

I do vaguely recall reading a story on the Mansell-Piquet rivalry published at the time (maybe in R&T? or Motorsport?) that Piquet felt he should have had the lower number,
but they'd already registered it to Mansell and then Frank Williams was laid up due to his road accident and the matter wasn't pursued.
It was supposedly one of the petty irritants that made Piquet resent Mansell.

Although Williams' refusal to honour their contract, Mansell's sudden leap forward in competitiveness and the team's chief designer being appointed Mansell's race engineer would have rankled far more. Maybe Nelson felt it was a little disrespectful to not be allowed to choose the number, no matter how daft that might sound. He was No. 5 in 1980, 81 & 83 so maybe thought it was a lucky number for him.

[Dalton007]

Rewatched the Mansell interview on SKYF1.

 

Piquet was a pennis. One thing to dislike Mansell, but to spout crap about his family in the papers, pay journalists, team members to unsettle the driver is quite another. Nigel must have punched him, surely?

I've never read or heard Piquet's side of the story, but I doubt Nigel was making it up.

 

Will always be my favourite Brit driver, what a racer he was. 

[john aston]

Since time immemorial drivers have played mind games - do you think Moss gave his signature wave to those he had overtaken purely out of courtesy or that Lauda dismissed Reutemann as neither  team mate nor rival purely out of rudeness? Piquet may have operated at a more adolescent level but he was doing exactly the same thing - it may have been crass but it wasn't unusual . It certainly worked , And come on, if we are to talk about drivers' personalities I would shrink from  descending into fourth form level of insult, but surely you have been round long enough to have become familiar with Mansell's trademark paranoid whingeing ? Try listening to Frank Dernie on working with Mansell .... 

[Dalton007]

Since time immemorial drivers have played mind games - do you think Moss gave his signature wave to those he had overtaken purely out of courtesy or that Lauda dismissed Reutemann as neither  team mate nor rival purely out of rudeness? Piquet may have operated at a more adolescent level but he was doing exactly the same thing - it may have been crass but it wasn't unusual . It certainly worked , And come on, if we are to talk about drivers' personalities I would shrink from  descending into fourth form level of insult, but surely you have been round long enough to have become familiar with Mansell's trademark paranoid whingeing ? Try listening to Frank Dernie on working with Mansell .... 

 

Indeed, but paying team members, calling his wife ugly in the papers, that's just pathetic and crosses the line, that tells me that Mansell was a massive threat to him. It certainly worked for Piquet.

 

Mansell had no leverage when he was against WC Piquet, the same with Prost. 

 

I remember the whinging.      I have no doubt that Nigel could play mind games, but never read that he was a pennis like Piquet was.

[2F-001]

I've heard a few people who knew, or worked with, Piquet say that that particular episode of personal abuse against Mansell and Mrs seemed notably out-of-character for Nelson and surmise that some 'advisor' or other put him up to it as a way to out-psyche Nigel; not that that excuses it.

When you say 'paying team members' do mean the story of him giving Mansell's mechanics a Christmas present when he found that Nigel didn't? I thought that was rather amusing.

Mind you, I've heard other stories that seek to show Piquet in a bad light, but the trouble with such tales is that you don't know who is grinding which particular axe. I take them all with a pinch of salt - though I think it's telling that the mechanics seemed to prefer working with Piquet.

Edited by 2F-001, 27 October 2017 - 17:07.

[F1matt]

Surely Mansell would have been offended to named as the no.1 driver, it would never sit well with the man of the people and his billions of adoring fans. 😎

On his day our nige was untouchable but on the other occasions it was the teams fault, or his team mate, of the FIA.......

[F1matt]

I've heard a few people who knew, or worked with, Piquet say that that particular episode of personal abuse against Mansell and Mrs seemed notably out-of-character for Nelson and surmise that some 'advisor' or other put him up to it as a way to out-psyche Nigel; not that that excuses it.

When you say 'paying team members' do mean the story of him giving Mansell's mechanics a Christmas present when he found that Nigel didn't? I thought that was rather amusing.

Mind you, I've heard other stories that seek to show Piquet in a bad light, but the trouble with such tales is that you don't know who is grinding which particular axe. I take them all with a pinch of salt - though I think it's telling that the mechanics seemed to prefer working with Piquet.

Piquet had form, he questioned Ayrton Senna's sexuality in a magazine interview before the start of the season. That is pretty low.

[kayemod]

It's not much to go on in itself, but in a most entertaining book I Only Made the Tea, Di Spears who along with her husband did the catering and much else for a succession of F1 teams including Williams, is quite emphatic that Nelson was one of her all time favourites, a pleasure to work with, Mansell didn't get a favourable mention, but then, despite his undoubted talent, he rarely does. Nelson always got on well with Frank, I don't think there were ever any problems between those two. Essential reading for anyone with an interest in the team and personnel is Maurice Hamilton's book Williams. It's full of quotes and reminiscences from all concerned, and there's no doubt who the team liked, and who they tolerated for what he was capable of in the car. Also revealing is Peter Warr's The Pit Wall, which mostly covers his time at Lotus, and as is well known, he was about as far from being a Mansell fan as it's possible to get. It's slightly surprising that Nigel seems to have become a much more pleasant and easy going character in later years, he actually comes across as quite a nice guy, but a Lunch With in Motor Sport some time ago revealed, that massive chip is ever present on his shoulder.

[Dalton007]

Ordered the Williams book by Maurice Hamilton.  

 

Looking forward to delving into the history of my favourite team of yesteryear.

[chunder27]

I grew up with Mansell as a sort of anti hero really. And it is almost a shame late in life to realise he was a complete and utter bell end and most disliked by just about everyone he ever worked with.

 

A fabulous driver, but a complete tool, and for people in tv shows that know the footage is going to be seen by millions aswell as the man concerned, the amount it is said is really rather alarming.

 

Then again, with the knowledge accrued through years of reading and even notes in places like this, when you see him talking today,m he still over dramatises, over exaggerates and plays up everything he did or his cars did back then.

 

It is actually rather wearisome and depressing to think a man with so much, who achieved so much cannot simply be happy with his lot.

 

My lasting memories of him are his post F1 career, his pathetic moaning in BTCC races and ruining his lads LE Mans chances of a result by being a total penis on the first lap.  They sadly override most things he did post F1 even winning CART.

[Dalton007]

I was too young to understand the machinations behind the scenes, but loved his on track battles and fighting spirit. To a certain extent they are all difficult to deal with, so it's no surprise that Nigel was a bellend sometimes.

 

At the time, Senna was the best, but I didn't think he was a deity like he is considered today. There's the notion of romanticising the past and levitating a person you're a fan of, in this case, a very fast racing driver into God-like status. 

 

It's a shame he was only ONE x F1 wdc - should have been THREE.

[ensign14]

 Piquet may have operated at a more adolescent level but he was doing exactly the same thing - it may have been crass but it wasn't unusual . It certainly worked ,

 

It didn't really work.  Mansell obliterated Piquet in 1987.  Only lost out on the title because of reliability.  That wretched Hungarian wheel-nut was a 12 point swing in itself.  And Piquet only won the title by 12.

 

Piquet won three races in 1987.  He inherited two after Mansell retired from a safe lead.  And the third was Honda playing their usual favouritism games at a power circuit. 

 

I can't think of a less-deserved title.  Made a mockery of the thing.

[ensign14]

It's slightly surprising that Nigel seems to have become a much more pleasant and easy going character in later years, he actually comes across as quite a nice guy, but a Lunch With in Motor Sport some time ago revealed, that massive chip is ever present on his shoulder.

 

I always got the impression that Mansell was one of the media's good guys in the early part of his career, and his egotism took off when he started winning.  But possibly as a result of people like Warr - who seemed pissed off that Mansell was Chapman's choice and then JPS' - dissing him.  So that when he did make it, he wanted to emphasize that it was him making it.  Rather than the equipment.
 

[chunder27]

Mansell was all about him certainly, he did have PR people and managers back then, and they no doubt blew pots of smoke up his behind as he was a big thing, the first real Brit F1 hero since James Hunt so they were just trying to exploit that. Maybe it went to his head a little.

 

He had Piquet's number most of the time at Williams no doubt, but Nelson was a dab hand, knew how to get the team on his side and managed it perfectly, he did what he did to rattle Mansell and it worked sometimes. But on track Nige had his number a lot of the time.

 

But the fact is, he won it once, Alain won it once, you can call it bad luck, but what is more bad luck, having an engine that is 200hp down all year or a few unreliability issues, don't they balance out over a year?

[Charlieman]

Then again, with the knowledge accrued through years of reading and even notes in places like this, when you see him talking today,m he still over dramatises, over exaggerates and plays up everything he did or his cars did back then.

Whenever I hear sports people whining, I flip the switch in my head that filters out the gripes and moans. In the case of Mansell, once I listen to my internal moderated sound track, I hear about a bloke from a modest background who fought bloody hard for his world championship. Similarly, regarding contemporary F1 drivers and outbursts on car radio, I usually hear frustration rather than disrespect for other drivers or the team.

 

I have always found criticism of Mansell's accent to be distasteful. He has a west midlands (of England) twang and his interview voice is flat in tone. Cal Crutchlow has never been slagged off in that way.

[chunder27]

I am from Birmingham but mercoifully was only born there so no accent. I don't think that helped him.

 

But I recall a SKJY thing a few years back he was on and some of the facts he came out with were simply wrong, either his memory was faded or he made things up to make him sound better.

 

I cant remember specifics, but even the Steve Ryder thing years back you cold also see him cringing.

 

Just no need for it, he was a hero to most of us, did a lot for British F1 and popularity, did an amazing back to back thing that will never likely be matched.  But it is obviously just his personality.

[kayemod]

I always got the impression that Mansell was one of the media's good guys in the early part of his career, and his egotism took off when he started winning.  But possibly as a result of people like Warr - who seemed pissed off that Mansell was Chapman's choice and then JPS' - dissing him.  So that when he did make it, he wanted to emphasize that it was him making it.  Rather than the equipment.
 

 

To put the Lotus bit into context, Mansell never won anything during his time at with the team, and in most peoples' opinions, never really looked like doing so, I can't see how Peter Warr's attitude is relevant. It's true that Colin Chapman saw his potential and had some faith in him, but he had major reservations about Mansell the man. It was after I left Lotus, but I was still in contact with one or two at Team. One told me about a test session when ACBC was present. Nigel came into the pits and was moaning about things on the car, and Colin said loudly to all in the vicinity, "What's that strange whining noise coming the cockpit?" It wasn't just Peter Warr, Mansell wasn't much liked by anyone at Lotus, but his main failing was that success when it eventually came, went to his head, making him a grade A paranoid tosser, and he's never let the facts get in the way of his hard done by stories. An example is his constant Hungary/Piquet/differential lies, disputed by everyone else at Williams, it was all imagined and reinforced by his paranoia. It's really a shame that he's demeaned himself like this, I don't think anyone disputed his in car talents, and when he had the bit between his teeth, he was one hell of a driver.

[john aston]

I'd really rather we didn't resort to crudities to describe drivers we don't care for - the point can be made just as well in other ways. I am no prude when it comes to swearing but what I have always  admired about this forum is its civilised behaviour - a huge contrast  to some of the adolescent guff elsewhere which serves only to stifle debate. Anyway ....I think history will probably show that Piquet was not only the more complete driver (his juvenile insults aside ) but also that hjs Imola shunt in 87(coinciding with my only visit ) had a lasting affect that season . I doubt that we still would have hard the last of it had Nigel had the same shunt at Tamburello ...    

[jrv_t644e]

Hearing somewhat positive things about Piquet its possible i may have done him a disservice these many years.

 

For a very long time i have considered him a low-life, even beyond the rabid rantings about and threats to Jones, the petulant reaction to Salazar, and the adolescent insults regarding sexuality or family... when it was reported that following the tragic accident to Giovanni Amadeo, two worthless individuals, a team lead driver and principal, considered it appropriate to mock the situation, cowering and cringing in front of Reutemann's car when he returned to the track.

 

It has been my understanding that this was Piquet and Ecclestone and has informed my extremely low opinion of both ever since.

 

Can anybody confirm who it was? And therefore if indeed i have misjudged them?

Edited by jrv_t644e, 03 November 2017 - 12:22.

[ensign14]

I don't think it was Ecclestone.  Heard it was Caldwell.

[jrv_t644e]

Sadly, that's believable

[piket]

I am from Birmingham but mercoifully was only born there so no accent. I don't think that helped him.

 

But I recall a SKJY thing a few years back he was on and some of the facts he came out with were simply wrong, either his memory was faded or he made things up to make him sound better.

 

I cant remember specifics, but even the Steve Ryder thing years back you cold also see him cringing.

 

Just no need for it, he was a hero to most of us, did a lot for British F1 and popularity, did an amazing back to back thing that will never likely be matched.  But it is obviously just his personality.

 

Perhaps, "Tales from the vault-teammates".

 

He mentioned that Piquet went for a pitstop before him in Adelaide 1986 (probably means Prost) and that based on that tyre inspection Head wanted him to continue on. He says he wanted a pitstop now, I dont recall him ever saying that before.

 

I  heard contradictive stories about Adelaide 1986,

 

Was he on his way to a pitstop and, if yes, who called  for it?

 

 

But a little history distorting happens later when he mentions that he signed as a nr. 2 driver for Ferrari in 1990. Simply wrong and misleading.

Mostly sour attitude and lack of working discipline demoted him in the eyes of Ferrari team and eventually led to his first retirement announcement.

 

Note, that I dont deny he got the "rough end of the stick" in terms of reliability in that Ferrari.

 

He also in one interview implied that Piquet was a dirty driver and that he was only going to get one chance of overtaking him because : "thats the way he drives". He was talking about 1987 Silverstone if I am not mistaken.

 

That is simply wrong,

 

Piquet was always a fair driver on track and I dont recall any incidents where he was considered even rough in terms racing etiquette.