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Perez says Rosberg faster than Vettel


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#101 choyothe

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 04:29

Vettel really must have every one rattled.

Im not the biggest fan but.... his record is mightlily impressive.

30odd poles dont just happen


+1. Has there been a driver before in F1 that has got the sport in this sort of panic? Amazing and hilarious at the same time.

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#102 BackOnTop

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 04:39

Who said anything about Schumacher's circumstances? I suggest you read and think a bit more before commenting, Schumacher was regarded as the fastest driver in F1 for many different reasons and for a long time not just in the height of his Ferrari days. Carry on making outward gestures whilst others concentrate on carefully thinking about the players in F1 without being sucked into a blind religious belief.

Lol, nobody claimed Schumi wasn't fast.. read again :rolleyes:

Alonso & Hamilton fans have gone crazy, and think want to religiously believe that the Youngest Triple World Champion is Slow.... And that Nico britney Rosberg is Faster than Vettel :rotfl:

So much so that they are ready to take Perez's word literally, who is currently at Vettel's foot as far as Success & Achievement ladder is concerned. Carry on, it's fun

Edited by BackOnTop, 18 January 2013 - 04:44.


#103 BackOnTop

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 04:47

:D So talented, hope he can also handle the coming counterattack...

...On the race track!

#104 bourbon

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:06

I fail to see the big deal. There is little between Rosberg, Hamilton, Vettel, or Kimi (and there may be more joining that group soon enough, including Perez) when they are zoned with their car - they blister the field.


Edited by bourbon, 18 January 2013 - 05:15.


#105 seahawk

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:37

What I find funny is that people care so much about Vettel´s speed, when he does not seem to. In all interviews Vettel does not seem to have fallen into the "I am the greatest" routine, but always says that you need a great car, perfect team and faultless drive to win in F1 and how much he depends on the team. Vettel is a type like MSC, he is a worker. He does not bet on his own talent, he will spent hours improving the car and his driving, his strategy.

With just a little distance to an event in which he was beaten, he will analyse this event and will work on improving, so that it never happens again.

Just look at MSC, many believe that by raw speed Frentzen was better, but he never was able to transfer this speed into winning. Currently I would not disagree that Lewis is faster, but Lewis is also more prone to unforced errors and especially to brake downs outside the cockpit, starting pointless trouble with the team or the press. Alonso is also to concentrated on politics.

Vettel reminds me of MSC more than any other driver in the field and MSC rates Vettel very highly.

#106 Sakae

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:04

http://www.planetf1....at-For-McLaren-
"He's probably the quickest guy I've ever raced alongside, one of the quickest Formula One has ever seen," Button said.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105160
Alonso says Hamilton is still his strongest rival in Formula 1

:wave:

/fanboyism

:p

OK, how opinions in your quote make Vettel slower than Hamilton? I think you need to open your mind and try to understand speed McLaren was capable off, and then check where Vettel usually was in comparison to McLaren drivers on the grid, instead relaying on trashy headlines. Vettel is a fully competitive animal giving to both, Alonso and Hamilton alike, run for their money, and as it appears, some drivers don’t particularly like to partner a new Schumacher on the grid, pushing theirs career into shades; no wonder they letting out a lot of hot air for media consumption.

Edited by Sakae, 18 January 2013 - 08:06.


#107 Sakae

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:14

No Sebastian is not regarded as the fastest of this generation, ask Alonso he'll tell you and the rest of the drivers for that matter.

Alonso or any driver can talk as much as he wants, but at the end a pile of pole positions and wins Vettel has to his credit suggests some other possibilities, one of them is, that while Alonso and Hamilton have their moments, in aggregate picture they are simply off the stage, regardless how many excuses anyone finds for them.

#108 Baddoer

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:29

Whatever Perez says is irrelevant

#109 Kingshark

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:33

Whatever Perez says is irrelevant

It's certainly a lot more relevant than what you write on these forums. :stoned:

Edited by Kingshark, 18 January 2013 - 08:34.


#110 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:35

These silly little mind games are just ... well silly really and ridiculous. In terms of mind games the F1 boys seems to fall a bit short.

#111 Kingshark

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:36

They aren't mindgames. They are opinions. You guys take everything that comes out of an F1 drivers mouth and turn it into a conspiracy. Ridiculous and stupid.

#112 H2H

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:48

They aren't mindgames. They are opinions. You guys take everything that comes out of an F1 drivers mouth and turn it into a conspiracy. Ridiculous and stupid.


It depends which driver says what in which context.

I fully agree with Alonso on certain topics but this doesn't mean that I give any merit to his talk about direct competitors. Perez might be less of an old Latin hand in this regard, but we will see.


Edited by H2H, 18 January 2013 - 08:51.


#113 jjcale

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:00

OK, how opinions in your quote make Vettel slower than Hamilton? I think you need to open your mind and try to understand speed McLaren was capable off, and then check where Vettel usually was in comparison to McLaren drivers on the grid, instead relaying on trashy headlines. Vettel is a fully competitive animal giving to both, Alonso and Hamilton alike, run for their money, and as it appears, some drivers don’t particularly like to partner a new Schumacher on the grid, pushing theirs career into shades; no wonder they letting out a lot of hot air for media consumption.


When is the last time you went to a circuit .... have you seen in the flesh the difference between SV's machinery and FA and LH's over the last few years .... its not a footrace ... its mostly dependent on machinery. Even last year's Macca, whilst (apparently) just as fast, was not as planted as the Redbull.

My personal opinion is that the "fastest" drivers over a lap are LH, PM, NR, HK and SV ... in what order is not really clear..... but I am not an F1 driver and I would never presume to contradict a current F1 driver on this point given my limited information.... if you are comfortable with doing so then carry on.

BTW ... MS was the undisputed best driver from Senna's death to about 2003 when it clear that was being elipsed in terms of talent by JPM, FA and KR and given equal cars they would probably beat him. MS' dominance in this period his was reflected in the other drivers' respect for him, other team bosses respect for him, his pay versus anyone else's etc... on none of these measures is SV considered the best driver. FA is generally considered the "most complete", LH the "fastest" and, most tellingly, within his own team Newey gets paid more than he does.

You can make an argument that SV is the "new MS" but you would have to mean MS from 2003/4-2006 where he was the most successful driver but very few (other than his hardcore fans) were convinced that he was the out and out best. Titles are not the measure of who is best/fastest driver. Its pretty superficial to suggest this given that they are all dependent on the machinery that they are given.... like I said before, its not a footrace.

.... Finally MS at his best in the late 90s was not winning any titles - he was being beat by lesser drivers in Newey mobiles. So be careful how you invoke MS' career as a comparison.

#114 jjcale

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:14

What I find funny is that people care so much about Vettel´s speed, when he does not seem to. In all interviews Vettel does not seem to have fallen into the "I am the greatest" routine, but always says that you need a great car, perfect team and faultless drive to win in F1 and how much he depends on the team. Vettel is a type like MSC, he is a worker. He does not bet on his own talent, he will spent hours improving the car and his driving, his strategy.

With just a little distance to an event in which he was beaten, he will analyse this event and will work on improving, so that it never happens again.

Just look at MSC, many believe that by raw speed Frentzen was better, but he never was able to transfer this speed into winning. Currently I would not disagree that Lewis is faster, but Lewis is also more prone to unforced errors and especially to brake downs outside the cockpit, starting pointless trouble with the team or the press. Alonso is also to concentrated on politics.

Vettel reminds me of MSC more than any other driver in the field and MSC rates Vettel very highly.


On this I am in agreement .... except that MS was probably also clearly the most talented driver between Senna's death and the rise of KR, FA and JPM - ally this talent to his dedication, work rate and intelligence and you get one of the true greats of F1. The good cars and good team were not a matter of luck. His services were in high demand ever since he shocked the world in his first quali session. His great team actually moved with him from one champion team to build another even greater team.

SV is similar in approach to MS (and this should be no surprise as they have similar backgrounds and he has been mentored by MS - in fact Berger even claims that it was MS who first discovered SV and there are pictures of a tiny looking SV with MS so it may be true) but he does not have a similarly high level of talent IMO - which is not to say he is not highly talented but rather that MS was a very special driver. But this is compensated for by the fact that he drives Newey's cars. Newey's cars were beating MS when MS was at his peak. It took a lot of work (and Newey being stymied by Martin Whitmarsh) for MS to get his hands on machinery to achieve the dominance for which he is now famous. SV does not have this problem ... and if he stays with Newey he may actually eclipse MS in terms of stats - and in the minds of those who are not too discerning.

#115 Rinehart

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:55

http://www.planetf1....at-For-McLaren-
"He's probably the quickest guy I've ever raced alongside, one of the quickest Formula One has ever seen," Button said.


Alonso thinks Hamilton is the quickest. Perez thinks Rosberg quicker than Vettel.

Personally I don't think there is much between ANY of the top drivers given the right circumstances. Sometimes Webber was faster than Vettel, Button faster than Hamilton, Massa faster than Alonso.

I think they are all basically capable of getting the maximum out of the car if the circumstances are right, there might be like 0.1-0.2 seconds in it it but at the end of the day they are operating a machine that does have a limit and basically, either they can get there or not.

I think its their ability to RACE that makes the real difference between them.

#116 aditya-now

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:59

.... Finally MS at his best in the late 90s was not winning any titles - he was being beat by lesser drivers in Newey mobiles. So be careful how you invoke MS' career as a comparison.


Although OT, very good analysis. Likewise, FA is driving his best years now while not winning the WDC.

Concerning Perez: I am amazed how big his mouth has become now that he has joined McLaren. 2013 seems to become a very colorful season, with word battles already now heating up on several fronts. Meanwhile, Seb lets Dr.Marko do the talking and Adrian Newey do the designing....


#117 Rinehart

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:59

I fail to see the big deal. There is little between Rosberg, Hamilton, Vettel, or Kimi (and there may be more joining that group soon enough, including Perez) when they are zoned with their car - they blister the field.


Or Button or Massa or Webber or Maldonado, if your not being selective.

I'm not a fan of Vettel, but if I was I wouldn't spend anytime defending his speed. Its utterly irrelevant. Race Wins and Championships is what its all about! Hands up which drivers would rather have Rosbergs speed AND Rosbergs car???!!!!

#118 seahawk

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:21

But this is compensated for by the fact that he drives Newey's cars. Newey's cars were beating MS when MS was at his peak. It took a lot of work (and Newey being stymied by Martin Whitmarsh) for MS to get his hands on machinery to achieve the dominance for which he is now famous. SV does not have this problem ... and if he stays with Newey he may actually eclipse MS in terms of stats - and in the minds of those who are not too discerning.


But then MSC won in Byrne cars and Byrne had a similar status as a designer as Newey. F1 is a team sport, it is impossible to take the driver and the car apart when judging the success. Vettel seems to be rated quite highly be the engineers in F1 though. He got praise from Ascanelli, Newey seems to be a fan of him, Ferrari has indicated that Vettel would be their choice to follow Alonso as team leader. Usually I rate the opinions of the engineers higher than those of other drivers, as it tells you more about work ethic, technical understanding, cleverness, consistency and speed than the usual driver ego talk. Going by this I rate Vettel in the top group of current F1 drivers.

#119 jjcale

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:55

But then MSC won in Byrne cars and Byrne had a similar status as a designer as Newey. F1 is a team sport, it is impossible to take the driver and the car apart when judging the success. Vettel seems to be rated quite highly be the engineers in F1 though. He got praise from Ascanelli, Newey seems to be a fan of him, Ferrari has indicated that Vettel would be their choice to follow Alonso as team leader. Usually I rate the opinions of the engineers higher than those of other drivers, as it tells you more about work ethic, technical understanding, cleverness, consistency and speed than the usual driver ego talk. Going by this I rate Vettel in the top group of current F1 drivers.


Can hardly be any doubt that SV is a top F1 driver ... there hasnt been any doubt about his talent since Monza 08.

Thing is... Byrne barely won any races aside from when MS drove - before the Ferrari dominance started but Newey has won championships with several different drivers and a few different teams. Seeing how long it took the Benetton crew to turn round Ferrari, this really is a staggering achievment in itself. Newey also has wins in other highly competitive series.

So no... Byrne has never really been (or been seen to be) on Newey's level as a designer.

But I digress as this is a thread about Rosberg :p



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#120 03011969

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:01

No, Lewis is.

By some fans certainly. If you think that is consensus you'd be wrong.

#121 LiJu914

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:18

Vettel reminds me of MSC more than any other driver in the field and MSC rates Vettel very highly.


Ok, OT but i´ll make it short:

SV doesn´t remind me of MSC at all. He is a different type of driver (more like a Hakkinen) and as a character more relaxed (off-track) and smarter.

The one, who reminds of MSC by far the most, is Lewis Hamilton...in terms of impact from the get go, "raw abilities", driving style, aggressiveness....and brain fades.  ;)

#122 Sakae

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:31

When is the last time you went to a circuit .... have you seen in the flesh the difference between SV's machinery and FA and LH's over the last few years .... its not a footrace ... its mostly dependent on machinery. Even last year's Macca, whilst (apparently) just as fast, was not as planted as the Redbull.

My personal opinion is that the "fastest" drivers over a lap are LH, PM, NR, HK and SV ... in what order is not really clear..... but I am not an F1 driver and I would never presume to contradict a current F1 driver on this point given my limited information.... if you are comfortable with doing so then carry on.

BTW ... MS was the undisputed best driver from Senna's death to about 2003 when it clear that was being elipsed in terms of talent by JPM, FA and KR and given equal cars they would probably beat him. MS' dominance in this period his was reflected in the other drivers' respect for him, other team bosses respect for him, his pay versus anyone else's etc... on none of these measures is SV considered the best driver. FA is generally considered the "most complete", LH the "fastest" and, most tellingly, within his own team Newey gets paid more than he does.

You can make an argument that SV is the "new MS" but you would have to mean MS from 2003/4-2006 where he was the most successful driver but very few (other than his hardcore fans) were convinced that he was the out and out best. Titles are not the measure of who is best/fastest driver. Its pretty superficial to suggest this given that they are all dependent on the machinery that they are given.... like I said before, its not a footrace.

.... Finally MS at his best in the late 90s was not winning any titles - he was being beat by lesser drivers in Newey mobiles. So be careful how you invoke MS' career as a comparison.

I went enough to various race tracks over the years to understand that wish for "cars to have" are changing in every season, even during a season. I understand that team Hamilton has not converted their advantage to any titles last year, and a driver is an essential factor in that consideration. For all what I know, he should have been more in the front, but he wasn't.
I also understand, after seeing the red car next to RB on the track, that a team Ferrari is not as slow as Alonso and his deciples are leading us to believe, despite paddock politics with voting best driver.
Finally I also understand that Perez as a driver has an opinion, but that's where it ends. He has no credible facts to lean on since situation of Vettel/Rosberg cannot be very well compared to make any such claims which would be more worth to listening to than anyones else's on this BB.

Edited by Sakae, 19 January 2013 - 15:56.


#123 Kingshark

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:34

Read it this way;

Journalist thinks: I have a boring story and I need to make it into an interesting one.

#124 Alcibiades

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 13:06

Read it this way;

Journalist thinks: I have a boring story and I need to make it into an interesting one.


The hardest thing for most people to do is admit they don't know. Nobody knows who is the fastest driver in F1. Most think its between Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso but we trully don't know. The machinary and team play such a big part that invoking Vettels three titles doesn't prove anything. Vettel has proved he's fast and can deliver when he has the machinary to do so. He deserves a lot of credit. It doesn't prove he's the best though he may be.

In a way the only way to prove it is to put Vettel and Alonso for instance in the same car and see how they stack up over a season. Then Hamilton and Vettel. Otherwise we are all making educated guesses.

It's fun debating it though. I just wish people would be less absolute with their opinions and more respectful of others.

Edited by Alcibiades, 18 January 2013 - 13:07.


#125 tkulla

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 13:18

In a way the only way to prove it is to put Vettel and Alonso for instance in the same car and see how they stack up over a season. Then Hamilton and Vettel. Otherwise we are all making educated guesses.

It's fun debating it though. I just wish people would be less absolute with their opinions and more respectful of others.


I would bet that the car would play a big part in any such head to head matchup. Vettel versus Alonso in a Red Bull could be very different from the same matchup in a Ferrari or a McLaren (or a Caterham for that matter). And even within one team the game changes every year so the car changes as well. The turbo era could play to some driver's advantage too, but we won't know until we get there and even then we won't really know. But that's part of the fun, I suppose.

Still, I'd love to see F1 drivers take after NASCAR drivers and compete is lower series from time to time for fun. How cool would it be too see one of the WDCs race a WSR or GP2 race sometime?

#126 Alcibiades

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 13:30

I would bet that the car would play a big part in any such head to head matchup. Vettel versus Alonso in a Red Bull could be very different from the same matchup in a Ferrari or a McLaren (or a Caterham for that matter). And even within one team the game changes every year so the car changes as well. The turbo era could play to some driver's advantage too, but we won't know until we get there and even then we won't really know. But that's part of the fun, I suppose.

Still, I'd love to see F1 drivers take after NASCAR drivers and compete is lower series from time to time for fun. How cool would it be too see one of the WDCs race a WSR or GP2 race sometime?


It would make a difference but at least that would show that some sort of straight comparison, rather than what we've got at the moment. that's why Hamiton/Alonso 2007 is talked about because its the only real head to head on recent years. thats why for all his titles and very deserving praise their is still some talk about how good Schumacher was because he never beat a top teammate in his prime. I would have loved to see Mika and Schumi in the same car, going head to head but we fans were denied it. Sad really. Before I get taken apart, Schumacher was obviously very good but there is some sort of question mark. Vettel can maybe be questioned on the same point.




#127 tkulla

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 16:50

It would make a difference but at least that would show that some sort of straight comparison, rather than what we've got at the moment. that's why Hamiton/Alonso 2007 is talked about because its the only real head to head on recent years. thats why for all his titles and very deserving praise their is still some talk about how good Schumacher was because he never beat a top teammate in his prime. I would have loved to see Mika and Schumi in the same car, going head to head but we fans were denied it. Sad really. Before I get taken apart, Schumacher was obviously very good but there is some sort of question mark. Vettel can maybe be questioned on the same point.


Agreed. At least we get snapshots of how they compare. This year is exciting because we get to see how good Rosberg and Perez really are since they're lined up against proven entities. Next up on my wish list is seeing Vettel alongside another top guy (any of the WDCs) and Hulkenberg against a tier 1 or tier 2 (WDCs plus Webber, Massa, Rosberg).

#128 Juan Kerr

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 17:01

By some fans certainly. If you think that is consensus you'd be wrong.

I think in this sport the consensus is generally wrong, there is a small element outside the sport who can judge things properly and a small element inside the sport who can too but most people judge drivers ability and performance wrong.

#129 BenettonB192

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 18:24

It doesn't really matter who of F1's top drivers is the absolutely fastest in terms natural talent imo. Where Vettel trumps upon his competition are his nerves of steel when it comes to the crucial parts of the season, his ability to learn from mistakes and not repeating them and his Schumacheresque work ethic. Year after year he steps up his game in the second half of the season while others start fading and get exhausted by the long season. It's a pattern that has emerged which can't be explained with pure luck and coincidence.

#130 Lone

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 06:51

It doesn't really matter who of F1's top drivers is the absolutely fastest in terms natural talent imo. Where Vettel trumps upon his competition are his nerves of steel when it comes to the crucial parts of the season, his ability to learn from mistakes and not repeating them and his Schumacheresque work ethic. Year after year he steps up his game in the second half of the season while others start fading and get exhausted by the long season. It's a pattern that has emerged which can't be explained with pure luck and coincidence.


I think Vettel showed a lot of nerves in Brazil. He was so overcautious that it was painful to watch. Just because the outcome was lucky nobody seems to bother to notice how nervous he was. I'd say he was very lucky to finish that race at all. But I agree with you that he's good at learning from his mistakes.

#131 bourbon

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 09:32

I think Vettel showed a lot of nerves in Brazil. He was so overcautious that it was painful to watch. Just because the outcome was lucky nobody seems to bother to notice how nervous he was. I'd say he was very lucky to finish that race at all. But I agree with you that he's good at learning from his mistakes.


I think you have forgotten the condition of the car; the entire team was a mess of nerves, realizing it would be miracle for the car to reach the checkered flag. Do you really believe that that despite Seb's car having an exhaust with a huge dent in it, and the floor excessively damaged, the electrical out, the slowest speed on the straight, and parts flying off during the race, he should have driven all balls out, aggressively blocking and fighting for position with drivers that had nothing to lose?

You are right, he was very lucky to finish that race, but the only reason he did was because he was cautious when necessary. But you are wrong that he was cautious througout; his passes on Nico, Massa, and Kobayashi (x3) were quite aggressive.

I would agree that being "fast" is not important all of the time. Vettel has shown incredible speed throughout his 5.5 so far, but he's also shown intelligence, which is a hell of a lot more important. Perez will learn that - he too is fast and smart - he will learn that the head must rule instead of the foot at times.

#132 Lone

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 09:43

^^
I was talking about the start of the race, that's where you could see how nervous/cautious he was. After he spun the pressure was of since he had no choice but to be aggressive.

Edited by Lone, 19 January 2013 - 09:44.


#133 BackOnTop

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 10:04

^^
I was talking about the start of the race, that's where you could see how nervous/cautious he was. After he spun the pressure was of since he had no choice but to be aggressive.

Just because a boxer falls down doesn't mean it's a judgement point of his entire career.

What matters is that knockout blow in the end... And Vettel has pretty much had a knockout blow reserved when it matters most. His systematic blows laid upon Webber after Turkey 2010 & continuation of domination upon the entire grid in 2011 was scarily simple.

His decimation of Alonso & his 42 points lead with 4 consecutive wins had Alonso in a state of despair. Brazil 12 simply stamped Vettel authority that had him seeing stars.

One mistake doesn't make a season, and it definitely doesn't define Vettel's career. If anything, that first lap incident actually added to Vettel's brilliance. Coming back from a mistake only adds more to Vettel's historical achievements. Being nervous shows he's human... & it really is a good thing for historians & F1 Fans. It makes him more relateable instead of being labelled a Robot.

Edited by BackOnTop, 19 January 2013 - 10:06.


#134 as65p

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 10:20

I think Vettel showed a lot of nerves in Brazil. He was so overcautious that it was painful to watch. Just because the outcome was lucky nobody seems to bother to notice how nervous he was. I'd say he was very lucky to finish that race at all. But I agree with you that he's good at learning from his mistakes.


Well, it has always been like that, in peoples memories mistakes aren't judged objectively, but heavily influenced by their consequences. Obviously the tiniest misjudgement can sometimes lead to retirement, whereas in other circumstances drivers might be able to recover from much bigger mistakes to a good finishing position or even a win.

Imagine if Vettels car would have retired in Brazil with a failure related to the first lap mess, the ghost of "losing nerves in a championship battle" would hunt him for years to come, without him doing anything different than he did on the day.

#135 toroRosso

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 10:44

No Perez, you can't jump on the Alonso and Hamilton bandwagon. There's no room for you. Quite frankly I hope he fills my low expectations and gets fired sooner than later.

#136 gillesthegenius

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 10:51

I think Vettel showed a lot of nerves in Brazil. He was so overcautious that it was painful to watch. Just because the outcome was lucky nobody seems to bother to notice how nervous he was. I'd say he was very lucky to finish that race at all. But I agree with you that he's good at learning from his mistakes.


Well. He was fortunate to continue after that collision with Senna. But it was a consequence of being squeezed into the first corner by his team mate who seemed more than happy to leave enough space for both the Ferraris to drive by even if they had been driving trucks. In any case, everything else in that drive than that start was nothing but nervous imo. The way he caught up with Alonso from being dead last (how annoying it must have been for Alonso to find his arch rival in his mirrors for the second time in three races) and how he was lapping a second quicker than the rest of the field in that broken car of his - which clearly lost a lot of its downforce as evidence by its performance in the dry - would probably be universally hailed as miraculous, had it been Ayrton Senna at the wheel of that RB8 that day.

Champions are judged by how they respond to adversity, not by the odd mistake or two, for no one - not even the greatest ever - is flawless.

Edited by gillesthegenius, 19 January 2013 - 11:00.


#137 gillesthegenius

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 11:09

Well, it has always been like that, in peoples memories mistakes aren't judged objectively, but heavily influenced by their consequences. Obviously the tiniest misjudgement can sometimes lead to retirement, whereas in other circumstances drivers might be able to recover from much bigger mistakes to a good finishing position or even a win.

Imagine if Vettels car would have retired in Brazil with a failure related to the first lap mess, the ghost of "losing nerves in a championship battle" would hunt him for years to come, without him doing anything different than he did on the day.


Thats true. Imagine what people would have been saying if Alonso hadnt been able to rejoin after going off at turn one - was it once or twice? - in that same very race. Instead we have claims of how 'flawless' he was, not only in that race, but all season.

That is the nature of 'opinions'. So fickle they are that today one can be a hero, but tomorrow he might wake up as a zero.

#138 gillesthegenius

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 11:15

Ok, OT but i´ll make it short:

SV doesn´t remind me of MSC at all. He is a different type of driver (more like a Hakkinen) and as a character more relaxed (off-track) and smarter.

The one, who reminds of MSC by far the most, is Lewis Hamilton...in terms of impact from the get go, "raw abilities", driving style, aggressiveness....and brain fades. ;)


I think he is an amalgamation of both Mika and Schumi. But if there has to be a direct comparison, then the driver that Seb is most similar to - from their sizzlingly fast, but smooth driving style to their laid back persona - is Jim Clark imho.

#139 choyothe

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 11:18

Hmm, interesting POV there that Vettel wasn't under pressure after being able to continue from the collision with Senna.
























:rotfl:

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#140 gillesthegenius

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 11:22

^^
I was talking about the start of the race, that's where you could see how nervous/cautious he was. After he spun the pressure was of since he had no choice but to be aggressive.


Excuse me! How could the pressure be off when he knew he had to somehow - and I mean somehow - get back up the grid in a car that AN was very worried about? A lesser person may have just thrown the towel in that day. But Seb showed us that he was made of sterner stuff. Stuff that legends are made of. (MA)

#141 as65p

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 11:29

Thats true. Imagine what people would have been saying if Alonso hadnt been able to rejoin after going off at turn one - was it once or twice? - in that same very race. Instead we have claims of how 'flawless' he was, not only in that race, but all season.


:D Nice try.

Yet not quite the same thing. Alonso got off track on his own and recovered on his own, his destiny in his own hands all the time. Whereas once Vettel had manouvered himself into a position from which he, as a driver, could NOT recover on his own, but had to rely on the good fortune of his car not being terminally damaged. Newey and the team have been pretty outspoken about how close a call that was.

If you must bring Alonso in, a much better comparison with Vettel@Brazil is the starting incident with Raikönnen in Japan. A tiny misjudgement off the line inflicting race ending damage (puncture) and costing big points, as so easily could have happened with Vettel in Brazil too.

#142 Topsu

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 12:26

I dislike Perez more by the day.

Edited by Topsu, 19 January 2013 - 12:26.


#143 gillesthegenius

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 12:37

:D Nice try.

Yet not quite the same thing. Alonso got off track on his own and recovered on his own, his destiny in his own hands all the time. Whereas once Vettel had manouvered himself into a position from which he, as a driver, could NOT recover on his own, but had to rely on the good fortune of his car not being terminally damaged. Newey and the team have been pretty outspoken about how close a call that was.

If you must bring Alonso in, a much better comparison with Vettel@Brazil is the starting incident with Raikönnen in Japan. A tiny misjudgement off the line inflicting race ending damage (puncture) and costing big points, as so easily could have happened with Vettel in Brazil too.


Of course that incident at Spa is probably the best comparison, like I have mentioned before in this very forum while comparing the seasons of both title protagonists of this year. But here I am not comparing, because my response was to a post of yours that discussed how 'the tiniest of mistakes' can go either way and hence influence the mindset of F1 fans.;)

Edited by gillesthegenius, 19 January 2013 - 12:58.


#144 as65p

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 13:09

Of course that incident at Spa is probably the best comparison,


Err... no. I was talking Suzuka.

like I have mentioned before in this very forum while comparing the seasons of both title protagonists of this year. But here I am not comparing,


Good to hear. :up:




#145 BenettonB192

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 15:04

I think Vettel showed a lot of nerves in Brazil. He was so overcautious that it was painful to watch. Just because the outcome was lucky nobody seems to bother to notice how nervous he was. I'd say he was very lucky to finish that race at all. But I agree with you that he's good at learning from his mistakes.


Maybe nerves of steel was the wrong phrase. He admitted himself that he was nervous and his face looked a bit pale the whole weekend. Perhaps what i meant is that he always maintains his ability to act and react in situations where many other people would simply freeze and at best start praying for their luck. He's like a tumbler doll, never gives up, pushes till the end trying to make his own luck. And i'm talking not just about the Brazil race but all the races from Spa onwards. Likewise the way he bounced back in 2010 and wasnt far away from turning it around in 2009, or how he turned 2008 into a succesful season after a horrible start with many retirements. I don't see a similar quality in any of the other current top drivers in that regard. So people can discuss as much as they want wether Vettel is the fastest or someone else. Speed is only one aspect of what makes a driver great.

#146 as65p

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 15:55

Maybe nerves of steel was the wrong phrase. He admitted himself that he was nervous and his face looked a bit pale the whole weekend. Perhaps what i meant is that he always maintains his ability to act and react in situations where many other people would simply freeze and at best start praying for their luck. He's like a tumbler doll, never gives up, pushes till the end trying to make his own luck. And i'm talking not just about the Brazil race but all the races from Spa onwards. Likewise the way he bounced back in 2010 and wasnt far away from turning it around in 2009, or how he turned 2008 into a succesful season after a horrible start with many retirements. I don't see a similar quality in any of the other current top drivers in that regard. So people can discuss as much as they want wether Vettel is the fastest or someone else. Speed is only one aspect of what makes a driver great.


I agree about Vettels qualities, yet I find the bolded a strange statement.

#147 flatlander48

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 16:15

It doesn't really matter who of F1's top drivers is the absolutely fastest in terms natural talent imo. Where Vettel trumps upon his competition are his nerves of steel when it comes to the crucial parts of the season, his ability to learn from mistakes and not repeating them and his Schumacheresque work ethic. Year after year he steps up his game in the second half of the season while others start fading and get exhausted by the long season. It's a pattern that has emerged which can't be explained with pure luck and coincidence.



Dr. Marko! I didn't know you posted here. But why the Benetton nom de plume or would it be a nom de guerre?

#148 karlth

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 22:37

He's[Vettel] like a tumbler doll, never gives up, pushes till the end trying to make his own luck.


Who of the top drivers isn't?

And i'm talking not just about the Brazil race but all the races from Spa onwards. Likewise the way he bounced back in 2010 and wasnt far away from turning it around in 2009 ...


How much of that has to do with improvements in the car? Or you could turn it around and ask why he fails to deliver in the first half of the season?



#149 Skinnyguy

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 22:50

Vettel naysayers mindset in a nutshell:

1) If Vettel wins, it must be the car.

How much of that second half has to do with improvements in the car?



2) If Vettel does not win, it can´t possibly be that the car isn´t up to the job. He must be failing.

Or you could turn it around and ask why he fails to deliver in the first half of the season?


Oh, and let´s not forget :3) Keep repeating 1 and 2 no matter what happens in the actual races or how butthurt and pissed it makes you look.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 19 January 2013 - 22:51.


#150 Kingshark

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 23:05

Don't be ridiculous. Red Bull was as quick as Mclaren throughout the season, and had far less reliability glitches. It was easily the best car for the entire championship year. If anything, Vettel nearly lost the title due his inconsistency throughout the season -- eg. making more mistakes than Hamilton and Alonso combined. His multiple crashes in the most critical parts of the season, Abu Dhabi and Brazil, showed that his nerves are far from being made out of steel.