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Vettel/Schumi against Alonso/Vettel


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#1 leojagpreet

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 18:54

Dear All,

Just thought of new discussion topic & will like to have your views.

I can be wrong in what I will say now, so please correct me if required.

We have two great German Legends Schumi/Vettel (I think Vettel is already a Legend if he walks out of F1 at this moment) & than we have Alonso/Hamilton.

Lets take couple of scenarios.

Scenario one - Car is not quickest on grid & its in midfield.

I think Alonso, Hamilton, Schumi can still bring that car to podium & probably win - we cannot say same about Vettel, I have absolutely nothing against Vettel but as he is not in a car apart from torro rosso in his earlier carrier where car is not one of the quickest - so probably in future we will find out if Vettel can drag a midfield car to win or not.

Anyway we know Alonson, Hamilton, Schumi has done that in past & they can drag midfield car to win (if we ignore schumi second carrier)

Scenario two - Car is one of the quickest on grid

I think Vettel & Schumi (From his 1st carrier) will be far more effective than Alonso & Hamilton. I mean Vettel/Schumi will get more points out of car which is quickest than Alonso/Hamilton. May be because they cut down errors when they are up front or they enjoy driving in that way or probably they gets better with the challenge of driving from pole position. I know Alonso/Hamilton have done drives where they were untouchables from front, but I still Vettel/Schumi has better record n proven winners from up front.

Will be interesting to know everyones views.







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#2 P123

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 19:07

Vettel did win in a Toro Rosso.

Neither Alonso or Hamilton have enjoyed a similar car pace advantage over the competition as either Schumacher or Vettel have at various times, so that may help explain your perception of what they do 'up front'.

#3 LiJu914

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 19:15

Neither Alonso or Hamilton have enjoyed a similar car pace advantage over the competition as either Schumacher or Vettel have at various times, so that may help explain your perception of what they do 'up front'.


I think Alonso had that in the first half of 2006....and showed that he can capitalize from that in the same dominant fashion as all the other great drivers.




#4 tomjol

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 19:21

These are difficult scenarios to really consider, because they rely on pretty much pure speculation. Vettel has never consistently done great things with a slower car (though he did of course win in the Monza downpour), while Hamilton and Alonso have never had significant car advantages.

It seems likely to me that Vettel has all the potential to drag a poor car up the grid and equally that Hamilton and Alonso in a RB7 or F2002 would walk away with the title with plenty of races to go.

I think Alonso had that in the first half of 2006....and showed that he can capitalize from that in the same dominant fashion as all the other great drivers.


He didn't have the kind of advantage that Vettel had in 2011, or Schumacher had in say 2002 and 2004, as I recall.

Edited by tomjol, 17 January 2013 - 19:26.


#5 leojagpreet

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 19:22

Vettel did win in a Toro Rosso.

Neither Alonso or Hamilton have enjoyed a similar car pace advantage over the competition as either Schumacher or Vettel have at various times, so that may help explain your perception of what they do 'up front'.


Hamilton had car early this year with pace advantage, Hamiltons car in 2007/2008 was not bad as well....so i guess he had his fair share of fast cars...

#6 P123

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 19:32

I think Alonso had that in the first half of 2006....and showed that he can capitalize from that in the same dominant fashion as all the other great drivers.


2006 was more or less a season long battle with Schumacher, with a few swings in performance between the Renault and Ferrari.


Hamilton had car early this year with pace advantage, Hamiltons car in 2007/2008 was not bad as well....so i guess he had his fair share of fast cars...


Yeah, they've all had fast cars. But those 2007 and 2008 cars whilst being fast were also involved in a season long battle against the equally fast Ferrari's. There's a little less scope to look serene running at the front in those situations.

#7 leojagpreet

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 19:34

2006 was more or less a season long battle with Schumacher, with a few swings in performance between the Renault and Ferrari.




Yeah, they've all had fast cars. But those 2007 and 2008 cars whilst being fast were also involved in a season long battle against the equally fast Ferrari's. There's a little less scope to look serene running at the front in those situations.


Fair comments & agree with you mate :up: :up: :up: :up:


#8 Winter98

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 19:38

If I had to bet, I would go with the team with the most WDCs.

From the front, Team Schumi has proven they win hands down. Middle of the pack it's a toss up, but I still give the edge to Team Schumi.

EDIT: It would be like betting on a battle between Coach Ditka vs. a Hurricane, you gotta go with Coach Ditka.

Fanboyism at its absolute best (RIP Chris Farley): Super Fans

(Coach Ditka was the coach of the Chicago Bears, an American Football team.)

Edited by Winter98, 17 January 2013 - 19:54.


#9 LiJu914

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 19:54

He didn't have the kind of advantage that Vettel had in 2011, or Schumacher had in say 2002 and 2004, as I recall.


Well if you see it that way, then it would prove my point even more.


#10 fabr68

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 20:07

I think it will take some time for Vettel success to soak into reputation and respect. It happens to all champions.

#11 tomjol

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 20:07

Well if you see it that way, then it would prove my point even more.


Well, that's probably true, and I agree with your point :)

But it's not comparable in the same way to Vettel or Schumacher's car-dominant years. I suppose you could compare it to 2009 in terms of capitalising on an early lead, but again the car advantage is nowhere near the same level.

#12 garoidb

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 21:14

Dear All,

Just thought of new discussion topic & will like to have your views.

I can be wrong in what I will say now, so please correct me if required.

We have two great German Legends Schumi/Vettel (I think Vettel is already a Legend if he walks out of F1 at this moment) & than we have Alonso/Hamilton.


I think the same is true of Alonso, by the way, and others will say the same of Hamilton.

No doubt, future generations will debate whether Schumacher was greater than Vettel or the other way around. When it is all over and done with, and they are all retired, it is interesting to note that Alonso will have been a notable rival of both of the German legends. At different times, he has been the main to rival to both Germans in no holds barred world championship campaigns. In that sense, he will be a link between them and probably part of the argument.

#13 leojagpreet

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 22:12

I think the same is true of Alonso, by the way, and others will say the same of Hamilton.

No doubt, future generations will debate whether Schumacher was greater than Vettel or the other way around. When it is all over and done with, and they are all retired, it is interesting to note that Alonso will have been a notable rival of both of the German legends. At different times, he has been the main to rival to both Germans in no holds barred world championship campaigns. In that sense, he will be a link between them and probably part of the argument.


Agreed, I think Hamilton/Kimi will be Legends by the time they will retire as well, but not sure they will come in same class as Schumi/Vettel/Alonso....


#14 Winter98

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 00:02

I think the same is true of Alonso, by the way, and others will say the same of Hamilton.


The difference is Vettel is the youngest 3 time WDCs, and did it on the trot, something accomplished by only two of the all time greats. Alonso and Hamilton need to improve their resumes to move up to Vettels level historically.

That's why I would bet on Schumi/Vettel.

Edited by Winter98, 18 January 2013 - 00:54.


#15 George Costanza

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 00:11

I would pick Fernando Alonso and Vettel because they are in their primes.


A better debate: 2000 Michael Schumacher/2000 Mika Hakkinen vs 2012 Alonso/Vettel...

For me it's a no brainer.... Schu and Mika will beat them.

I don't think Alonso or Vettel could hanlde that Michael Schumacher of 2000.

Alonso had an awesome 2012, one of the finest seasons I have seen of driving, on par with vintage Schumacher.

Edited by George Costanza, 18 January 2013 - 00:16.


#16 bourbon

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 04:52

The comparisons are a little whack. How can you compare when:

1. Alonso and Schumi have 10 + years of experience and Vettel only 5.5. Vettel hasn't had the opportunity to do as much as they have.

2. The drivers had different career trajectories - even Vettel has so far. They've had different magnificent achievements and opportunities offered to them so far.

3. We've seen them all drag cars to the front from the back/mid grid. We've seen them all win from the front. Depending on the regulations and a fan's likes/dislikes, that journey might appear more or less "exciting".

4. The two "scenarios" chosen seem arbitrary and rather pointless. Why not something more interesting like:

a) A scenario where the drivers are #2 drivers at Ferrari with teammates that subjugate them with the team's help. Seems to me we haven't seen any of them in that role.
b) A scenario where they are in cars performing at the level of HRTs, who would fair best then? Seems to me we haven't seen any of them do that either.

That would be a purer form of speculation. We've seen them in the two scenarios asked - and they drive like champions, win and/or get close to the front. Nothing to really discuss, imo. Now a & b above - those are the real speculative questions. What happens when you put a champion in a bad, bad situation....

#17 MarileneRiddle

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 22:02

Personally, I have only seen Schumacher race from 06 onwards so I cannot really rate him adequately since most say his peak earlier in his career. So I'll compare Sebastian, Hamilton and Alonso instead.

Scenario #1 barring accidents (caused by others) or mechanical problems
I believe Sebastian and Hamilton will qualify the car in the top 10, possibly even top 5. Alonso will put the car exactly where it deserves to be.

Off the start line, Alonso would get the car into the top 10. Sebastian and Hamilton should maintain positions.

If tyre wear is critical Hamilton may fall back due to extra pit stops.
If it is a full wet race, Sebastian should shine.
If it is mixed conditions, Hamilton would do well, and Sebastian might struggle.
Alonso should maintain position regardless.

Alonso and Sebastian would claim consistent points, although Sebastian may nick a few more placings due to questionable overtakes, and Alonso will regain some ground through greater reliability.
Hamilton would have higher placings but also more DNFs. All 3 might balance out to roughly the same points haul, though.

Scenario #2 barring accidents (caused by others) or mechanical problems
Sebastian and Hamilton will be competing for the front row. Alonso will be in the top 5, with the occasional higher/lower placing.

Off the start line, Alonso will overtake and may even shoot into first. Sebastian and Hamilton should maintain positions (+/- 1).

Most in race incidents as Scenario #1, plus:
Alonso would be the least likely to overtake on track. Hamilton will be the most likely one.
Sebastian would be the most likely to go for a longer tyre stint.

Alonso and Sebastian would claim consistent podiums, with the occasional wins on their favoured tracks. Hamilton will be dominant on certain weekends, but may fall to minor points on others. Due to the current points system, I would say Alonso and Sebastian would have more points that Hamilton if only because of their consistency.

What I really like to consider is three further scenarios:

Scenario #3 Car is from midfield to best, but experiences mechanical and set-up problems. (McLaren 2012)

Scenario #4 Car is the absolute best on Saturday, but falls back in pace on Sunday. (Red Bull 2011)

Scenario #5 Car is midfield, but easy on tyres and remarkably reliable. (Ferrari 2010-2012)

I think in scenario #3 Alonso will have the definite advantage followed by Hamilton. Both drivers seem to be able to cope with slight handling problems and still achieve consistent points. However, as seen from early 2008 and early 2012, Sebastian hates it whenever the car is not to his liking (regardless of outright speed).

In scenario #4, Sebastian has shown he is supreme. Hamilton should do quite well as well, although I have some question marks over his defensive skills (nothing major, just not as tested as Sebastian). Alonso will be in trouble whenever he has an off qualifying day, and I just cannot see him weekly qualifying on pole.

And in scenario #5, both Alonso and Sebastian have proven to be fully capable of hauling major points (with Ferrari and Toro Rosso respectively). But I suspect Hamilton may do the most damage, since a reliable car may allow his do-or-die overtaking style to work more consistently and he may perform the best of all 3.

Edited by MarileneRiddle, 24 January 2013 - 22:03.