Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Force India close to collapse? [split]


  • Please log in to reply
148 replies to this topic

#101 skinnylizard

skinnylizard
  • Member

  • 9,636 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 06 February 2013 - 14:41

Here is the news for the other half of Sahara Force india group

The Securities and Exchange Board of India (frequently abbreviated SEBI) is the regulator for the securities market in India
SEBI free to seize properties of Sahara companies for defying court: SC
http://timesofindia....ow/18368788.cms

Also Shara Group is also under scrutiny from Provident fund
http://articles.econ...-provident-fund



Sahara has made many violations but theirs are mostly in the way they have collected money rather than defrauding anyone.. they have also bought the Plaza hotel in NY etc, without clearing the purchase with the Reserve Bank of India.. not having money is not one of their problems..

Advertisement

#102 skinnylizard

skinnylizard
  • Member

  • 9,636 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 06 February 2013 - 14:48

Kingfisher(airline) has never made a profit so they aren't really dragging down the team. Though if he has to offset huge loses by selling other bits of the group that may cause a problem.



What i understand about the way the KF airline was financed was that the airline pledge its own shares with the banks, a big chunk of that was converted to equity. They cancelled their purchases switched to leased airplanes. The banks still had outstanding loans and a chunk of these were guaranteed by United Spirits and United Breweries. The shares in these companies were pledged (not a big chunk and not a big chunk of VJM's own shares either)

VJM also put some of his personal homes on the line, the one in Goa and the one in Bombay which should be together worth close to $15-20. Bear in mind he has some 40 + properties spread across the world from Sausalito to Monaco to Cannes to Africa so he is not hurting.

If this does go South he will de link his houses and pay for them out of pocket, United Spirits will be taken over by Diageo, he can either sell them his own shares or continue to own them. He will most likely sell off his stake in Mangalore Fertilizers which is another publicly listed company owned by him.

He will i think continue his holding in United Breweries which is his crown jewel. This way the banks get paid to an extent and must write off the rest. KF can fly as a new lean operation or shutter for good. Either way VJM loses $200million of his fortune but wont be needing our help anytime soon.

#103 Mr Plug

Mr Plug
  • Member

  • 126 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 06 February 2013 - 19:10

.......Either way VJM loses $200million of his fortune but wont be needing our help anytime soon.


I'm not sure that's quite right. The Indian Express reports that Mr Mallya's UB empire has a very significant exposure to the losses at Kingfisher (see HERE). I make Rs 13,500 Crore about £1.6BILLION in our money.....and that might have a rather significant effect upon Mr Mallya's pocket - and probably Force India too.

Edited by Mr Plug, 06 February 2013 - 19:12.


#104 swerved

swerved
  • Member

  • 3,593 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 12 February 2013 - 21:19

"Lenders to grounded Kingfisher Airlines(KING.NS) have decided to take initial steps towards recovering $1.4 billion of loans in default after the company failed to come up with a viable funding plan."


http://in.reuters.co...E91B0IB20130212

#105 skinnylizard

skinnylizard
  • Member

  • 9,636 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 13 February 2013 - 05:50

an interesting piece on the Vijay Mallya/UB/Kingfisher empire as of Dec 2012.
http://businessworld...652558.0/page/0

#106 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 13 February 2013 - 06:29

Ecclestone must have been aware of (then unspecified) difficulties, when he suddenly and publicly changed his tune just not too long ago, and began advocating F1 membership related contraction. Then I thought he was merely hashing up exit by HRT, but now I am not so sure anymore that this was the only case. Can VM’partner (Sahara?) carry that team forward?

____________________

The speculators who wanted to float F1 on a stock exchange must be delirious with the news and what it does to what's already by some estimates pretty bloated asking price for a share.

#107 understeer

understeer
  • Member

  • 204 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 13 February 2013 - 14:26

1.6 Billion USD Loan Default

http://www.businessw...from-kingfisher

Edited by understeer, 13 February 2013 - 14:27.


#108 Dhillon

Dhillon
  • New Member

  • 5 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 13 February 2013 - 17:07

42.5% stake holder Sahara also in little trouble

http://www.hindustan...e1-1011241.aspx

#109 understeer

understeer
  • Member

  • 204 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 13 February 2013 - 17:26

Wonder how many companies from India would want to associate with (or sponsor) Force India anymore.

#110 packapoo

packapoo
  • Member

  • 731 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:29

Could add to that how many of the sponsors of the potential money bringers want to be associated here?

Things are looking up for Narain.
TATA could hardly turn their back.
Could they?

#111 paulogman

paulogman
  • Member

  • 1,858 posts
  • Joined: June 03

Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:39

what kills me is you see these guys who make billions and then they stop doing what made them all those billions and try to own everything...
only the guy from redbull has done what made him rich and continues to do so.

Edited by paulogman, 14 February 2013 - 04:40.


#112 Jimisgod

Jimisgod
  • Member

  • 2,549 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 14 February 2013 - 06:27

what kills me is you see these guys who make billions and then they stop doing what made them all those billions and try to own everything...
only the guy from redbull has done what made him rich and continues to do so.


It's called capitalism. Better than bailing out the stupid ambitious rich people and bankrupting your country by doing so...

#113 Gintonious

Gintonious
  • Member

  • 966 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 14 February 2013 - 13:22

I wonder about the season long prospects for them now. It looks like they have a decent car as well so it would be a shame to out a taxi driver like Kart in there.

It could be good for them to get a decent driver and get points, but that might not be enough for them at this stage.

#114 Sin

Sin
  • Member

  • 1,938 posts
  • Joined: December 12

Posted 14 February 2013 - 15:32

so can it happen that Force India will be closed in the middle of 2013 or at least given away by Mallya?

#115 MirNyet

MirNyet
  • Member

  • 903 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 14 February 2013 - 16:57

so can it happen that Force India will be closed in the middle of 2013 or at least given away by Mallya?


They will sell it - so, the old Jordan cars are in for yet another lick of fresh paint :) Is this team the most sold in F1 history?

#116 green-blood

green-blood
  • Member

  • 706 posts
  • Joined: May 00

Posted 15 February 2013 - 10:18

Its got to be up there
  • Jordan
  • Midland
  • Spyker
  • FI
Then again
  • Toleman
  • Benneton
  • Renault
  • Lotus 1
  • Lotus 2
On a smaller scale
  • Stewart
  • Jaguar
  • Red Bull
  • bits of Tyrell
  • BAR
  • Honda
  • Brawm
  • Mercedes
Sauber-BMW-Sauber, not even in the same league

Edited by green-blood, 15 February 2013 - 10:20.


#117 Sin

Sin
  • Member

  • 1,938 posts
  • Joined: December 12

Posted 15 February 2013 - 11:02

if they are sold I hope they become yellow again I mean these cars were absolute sex

Posted Image

Posted Image

#118 swerved

swerved
  • Member

  • 3,593 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 15 February 2013 - 11:37

if they are sold I hope they become yellow again I mean these cars were absolute sex

Posted Image

Posted Image



Something you may be interested in, apologies for the O/T.

http://www.detailing...ighlight=jordan


#119 Sin

Sin
  • Member

  • 1,938 posts
  • Joined: December 12

Posted 15 February 2013 - 12:27

Something you may be interested in, apologies for the O/T.

http://www.detailing...ighlight=jordan


that is just awesome :) thank you ^^ :clap:

Advertisement

#120 swerved

swerved
  • Member

  • 3,593 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 15 February 2013 - 12:30

that is just awesome :) thank you ^^ :clap:


YW, Cheers :up:


#121 Ali_G

Ali_G
  • Member

  • 18,018 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 15 February 2013 - 15:25

It's a real pity we lost Jordan IMO. Their yellow livery was starting to become somewhat iconic before their demise.

Prob the first team with a party atmosphere in the Paddock ?

#122 jcbc3

jcbc3
  • Member

  • 5,055 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 15 February 2013 - 16:00

Hesketh would certainly dispute that claim!

#123 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 2,589 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 15 February 2013 - 19:55

06 was a bit weird season. F1 had lost The Partying Jordan, Coffee makers Minardi and Swiss Sauber.
We've got one of them back, I want them all :(

#124 Monstrobolaxa

Monstrobolaxa
  • Member

  • 187 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted 16 February 2013 - 15:23

Sahara assets frozen

Not sounding too well!

#125 Vickyy

Vickyy
  • Member

  • 188 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 16 February 2013 - 15:50

Sahara assets frozen

Not sounding too well!


In an interesting turn of events,today Sahara released ads in all major Indian dailies claiming about the refund they will get from SEBI (local market regulator) instead other way round:

http://www.firstpost...ebi-627779.html

#126 bspec

bspec
  • Member

  • 34 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:35

Mallya surprises Kingfisher staff with month's salary, CEO meets DGCA: Sources
http://timesofindia....ow/18573940.cms

#127 billm99uk

billm99uk
  • Member

  • 2,841 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 19 February 2013 - 14:03

Mallya surprises Kingfisher staff with month's salary


It's a bad sign when employees getting paid is a surprise :eek:

#128 understeer

understeer
  • Member

  • 204 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 19 February 2013 - 16:40

I greatly appreciate Marussia and Caterham to come out and say they are in trouble and had to go with drivers with backing.
force india on the other hand have been a farce.


#129 mechadaniel

mechadaniel
  • Member

  • 729 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 20 February 2013 - 13:14

Ouch!

http://economictimes...ow/18591201.cms

#130 Vickyy

Vickyy
  • Member

  • 188 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 20 February 2013 - 13:16

I greatly appreciate Marussia and Caterham to come out and say they are in trouble and had to go with drivers with backing.
force india on the other hand have been a farce.


Nice, now we have farce (not accepting) within a farce (pay driver).
I think they deserve some credit for appreciating meritocracy over pay driver phenomenon over past 3-4 years compare to likes of Sauber and Williams.
Yes, delaying second driver decision indeed displaying murkiness in background and yes it is annoying but whats wrong in prioritizing to bring the house in order first rather than caring more about fan's impatience.

#131 understeer

understeer
  • Member

  • 204 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 20 February 2013 - 16:10

Yes, delaying second driver decision indeed displaying murkiness in background

This is why it is a farce

#132 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 20 February 2013 - 16:12

I saw a news on World Stock market feed that AirAsia and TATA is working on a airline business, just this afternoon. What should this mean?

#133 matthewf1

matthewf1
  • Member

  • 76 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 20 February 2013 - 16:13

I greatly appreciate Marussia and Caterham to come out and say they are in trouble and had to go with drivers with backing.
force india on the other hand have been a farce.


Farce India?

#134 understeer

understeer
  • Member

  • 204 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 20 February 2013 - 16:25

I saw a news on World Stock market feed that AirAsia and TATA is working on a airline business, just this afternoon. What should this mean?


It could mean that Narain karthikeyan will drive for Caterham
or
Narain karthikeyan could drive for Force India if AirAsia-India rescues Kingfisher.



#135 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 56,839 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 20 February 2013 - 16:42

I wouldn't say there's any link at all.

#136 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:17

It could mean that Narain karthikeyan will drive for Caterham
or
Narain karthikeyan could drive for Force India if AirAsia-India rescues Kingfisher.


It is more like AirAsia destroys King Fisher faster than it may... Naturally this will cause good amount of political tension a=on the gird. I can hardly imagine that Narain will drive for Force India because Air Asia starting to attack Indian Market, more likely that Narain will drive Caterham's Le Man car, perhaps?
For Force India, it is something yet unknown,... but how fast would this bad situation for Kingfisher unfolds in India? THIs isn't a good news at all...

#137 understeer

understeer
  • Member

  • 204 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 20 February 2013 - 17:22

Coming back to Force India , in the past Vijay and the team have categorically rejected Narain whenever his name popped up but not this time.
Does that mean he was really an option at some point ?

#138 skinnylizard

skinnylizard
  • Member

  • 9,636 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 21 February 2013 - 05:46

I wouldn't say there's any link at all.



id have to agree here too. entering the Indian aviation business is testy and that too with a partner like Tata is going to make things choppy, a race seat for Narain will be the last thing on their minds.. besides talking about entering, getting permissions and then launching are a whole lot different.

#139 Mr Plug

Mr Plug
  • Member

  • 126 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 21 February 2013 - 13:30

Ooops! Never rains but it pours for Vijay...........

Advertisement

#140 bspec

bspec
  • Member

  • 34 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 21 February 2013 - 13:39

Ooops! Never rains but it pours for Vijay...........


in any other country he would have been behind bars by now but won't happen in India. There are no comments from aviation authority or government

#141 understeer

understeer
  • Member

  • 204 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 21 February 2013 - 13:49

The guy is a member of Indian Parliament too. The law maker/breaker.

#142 Paco

Paco
  • Member

  • 1,148 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 21 February 2013 - 14:12

Bye bye Force India.

A crore is approx. 300,000 dollars I believe. So 100+ crore unpaid to the government is some serious cash and coupled with a grounded fleet, serious operating loses several times that of unremitted collected taxes, striked staff at airline.

There's no way for FI to continue. No matter how lean he runs the division. Too bad as they seemed to be the only midfield squad with a chance at cracking the top of the grid several times a season.

#143 bspec

bspec
  • Member

  • 34 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 21 February 2013 - 15:11

Bye bye Force India.

A crore is approx. 300,000 dollars I believe. So 100+ crore unpaid to the government is some serious cash and coupled with a grounded fleet, serious operating loses several times that of unremitted collected taxes, striked staff at airline.

There's no way for FI to continue. No matter how lean he runs the division. Too bad as they seemed to be the only midfield squad with a chance at cracking the top of the grid several times a season.


1 Core = 10 Million
100 Core = 1 Billion
1 USD approx 55 INR
so 100 Core = 18.18 Billion US dollar

Edited by bspec, 21 February 2013 - 15:12.


#144 understeer

understeer
  • Member

  • 204 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 21 February 2013 - 16:01

1 Core = 10 Million
100 Core = 1 Billion
1 USD approx 55 INR
so 100 Core = 18.18 Billion US dollar


math correction
100 Crore INR is 18 million USD

#145 gm914

gm914
  • Member

  • 6,046 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 21 February 2013 - 16:21

math correction
100 Crore INR is 18 million USD

Yes this sounds a little more realistic.
Although I would buy a ticket to watch a man accrue 18 Billion dollars in unpaid taxes :lol:

#146 Mr Plug

Mr Plug
  • Member

  • 126 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 04 March 2013 - 12:25

I don't know whether this article in the Telegraph means that Force India is closer to, or further from, "collapse", but the declining revenue from sponsors once controlled by Mr Mallya does illustrate a problem - and probably hints at hiring pay-drivers becoming their norm.

#147 GhostR

GhostR
  • Member

  • 2,610 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 22 May 2013 - 10:21

Digging this back up as a result of some news from the world of cricket :).

Sahara have pulled their team out of the Indian 20/20 competition over a dispute with the ruling body, but it appears from the articles I've read that there may be some associated cash-flow problems as well (some players reporting that they've not received payments on time, and the ruling body claiming the franchise fees weren't paid on time - which is what precipitated the dispute).

Could be worth keeping an eye on developments, in case this is first signs of even more serious financial difficulty for Sahara and therefore potential financial problems for Force India.

#148 Cavani

Cavani
  • Member

  • 905 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 22 May 2013 - 11:04

Force India is very secure at the moment , 6th place in wcc is given this season and maybe 5th and more sponsors will come in result of that , in fact it is the most secure team in the midfield

#149 GhostR

GhostR
  • Member

  • 2,610 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 22 May 2013 - 12:08

Force India is very secure at the moment , 6th place in wcc is given this season and maybe 5th and more sponsors will come in result of that , in fact it is the most secure team in the midfield


Results =/= security. Especially not this early in the season. They're doing quite well on performance, sure, but they're sitting on a financial base that's not so stable. Sahara's financial situation is known to be weak (and today's news includes potential signs that it's getting weaker, if you read between the lines) while much of Mallya's business empire is also known to be on very shaky ground (or very grounded, in the case of the airline!).

Force India's future is very much subject to the future of the businesses that own the team. Mallya sold to Sahara to bring in funding that he could no longer provide. Would appear Sahara's ability to fund is reaching the bottom of the barrel as well.

They're vulnerable. Performing very well, and very solid in terms of everything that remains within the sphere of F1, but still vulnerable due to the outside influences imported by being owned by financially weak entities who could be forced to pull out at any time. Or, as Sahara has made clear with the IPL situation, pull out voluntarily at the drop of a hat because they don't like something the administration said/did (which makes the current non-Concorde situation a worry in my mind).

Edited by GhostR, 22 May 2013 - 12:08.