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Piper v. Hales


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#151 ensign14

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 07:59

If the repair costs are so comparatively low, then surely it would be easy enough to get the risk insured? :confused:

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#152 Doug Nye

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:24

Magnitude seems irrelevant when assessors consider that a mechanical failure in a competition car amounts - at some time - to a virtual racing certainty. Would you insure someone else against an inevitability?

DCN

#153 ensign14

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:42

Wear and tear, I can understand that not being insurable, as per a normal road car; Piper however thought a driver-error policy was possible, hence asking about it. If buzzing a 917 engine causes £50k worth of damage, then at a grand a time you've only got to have 51 non-engine-buzzing driving bouts to make a profit.

Besides which, knowing insurers, they'd take the policy money in, then decline to pay out on the basis that it was wear and tear. Which I assume is why there was an admission of driver error in this case...

#154 Peter Morley

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:30

Very interesting - I have seen DCN´s quote before, but would not have thought that it would be possible for this type of complicated machinery, even if the price would go in the direction of seven figures.

Ralf


When companies are selling new road cars for more than half a million (I read that the new Maybach is going to be 5 million) it doesn't sound so expensive but having the drawings and originals to look at must have helped with the costs, and with modern equipment you don't need to make large numbers of items to see the cost come down significantly.
Apparently the Auto-Unions were less sophisticated than the Mercedes which also keeps their cost down.

#155 Peter Morley

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:38

If the repair costs are so comparatively low, then surely it would be easy enough to get the risk insured? :confused:


I agree, damage is fairly easy to repair and calculate the cost of hence it should be possible to insure against, but what about insuring against a change in the value of the car due to a major accident - e.g. if it needed a new chassis (obviously not in the case of this particular 917)?

Ultimately, as with banks, insurance companies aren't looking out for the customer so any premium will be calculated such that the majority of customers lose money on the deal.

#156 kayemod

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:45

Apparently the Auto-Unions were less sophisticated than the Mercedes which also keeps their cost down.


Based on not very much, FoS and old photos mostly, Auto Unions weren't as well-built as Mercedes either. Probably every bit as good where it really mattered, but the appear not to have wasted much time on machining and finishing where it didn't matter so much, that must have saved them a good few Deutschmarks.


#157 Peter Morley

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:55

Based on not very much, FoS and old photos mostly, Auto Unions weren't as well-built as Mercedes either. Probably every bit as good where it really mattered, but the appear not to have wasted much time on machining and finishing where it didn't matter so much, that must have saved them a good few Deutschmarks.


The story I like is when they analysed the original aluminium and are told that the nearest modern equivalent is the stuff used to make garden furniture!


#158 austinharris

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 11:22

I asked Crosswaite and Gardiner how much it would cost for an Austin Twincam to be made from scratch when I was having a look round last year. (My son goes to school opposite the factory).

£500,000 was the answer.

#159 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 11:45

I asked Crosswaite and Gardiner how much it would cost for an Austin Twincam to be made from scratch when I was having a look round last year. (My son goes to school opposite the factory).

£500,000 was the answer.



This aspect of the story would make an interesting thread all on it's own!
I remember seeing a brand new Ferrari 712 Can Am V12 engine in a workshop some 20 years ago alongside a Maserati Birdcage unit, also new and being told "We can make anything like this from scratch if you have deep enough pockets" . Possibly today in both cases one would need somewhat deeper pockets for the Italian court battles that might follow?

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#160 kayemod

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 12:00

…and the patience of Job, as it will take forever to get a judgement!


Surely it's possible to bribe the judge, isn't that what the expression 'bunga-bunga' means?


#161 Nick Savage

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 15:06

Apparently the Auto-Unions were less sophisticated than the Mercedes which also keeps their cost down.


Having stood in his workshop with Dick Crossthwaite showing me and a mate the newly-machined built-up Auto Union Hirth-replica crankshaft (for which work one of their apprentices won 'Apprentice of The Year' under the supervision of the late and sadly-missed John Gardiner) and which comprised heaven-knows-how-many components plus the mind-boggling precision of machining and hardening to get exactly the right throws, then the use of the phrase 'less sophisticated' is definitely relative ! Those Mercedes must have been even more complicated than I thought.

DCN is right, though : Mercedes did seem to machine everything inside and out regardless of whether it was visible or necessary.
Nick




#162 arttidesco

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 15:13

Makes perfect sense to me; whatever you do to a GTO will not make it uneconomic to restore. Whilst a cracked wing mirror will probably be the end for an HA Viva. When did you last see one eh ? Or a Maxi ?


Posted Image

I probably should apologise for going slightly of topic but I really can't resist, tripped over this one while I was gawping at a Vulcan overhead round the back of the Stowe grandstand at the Silverstone 6 hours last year  ;)

#163 Peter Morley

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 15:28

Having stood in his workshop with Dick Crossthwaite showing me and a mate the newly-machined built-up Auto Union Hirth-replica crankshaft (for which work one of their apprentices won 'Apprentice of The Year' under the supervision of the late and sadly-missed John Gardiner) and which comprised heaven-knows-how-many components plus the mind-boggling precision of machining and hardening to get exactly the right throws, then the use of the phrase 'less sophisticated' is definitely relative ! Those Mercedes must have been even more complicated than I thought.

DCN is right, though : Mercedes did seem to machine everything inside and out regardless of whether it was visible or necessary.
Nick


Ollie tried to describe to me the shape of the surface of the Mercedes crankshaft (e.g. it wasn't flat) and said that they were still trying to work out how Mercedes had managed to make them!

Bugatti roller bearing cranks are already complicated, I'm sure the Auto Union ones are works of art.

#164 bradbury west

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 15:54

I remember many moons ago having a copy of a photograph of the Hirth crank assy in assemblable format so you could see just how it all worked and went together. It was around the time of the C&G resto/recreations, and I thought there was opne in the relevant book chronicling the story of them. Does anyone have access to such a photographs?
Roger Lund

edit. the most telling photograph, movingly posted by DCN aeons ago, was of the Star of David found engraved on one of the engine components when C&G dismantled one of the original engines. ISTR our in-house thread researcher Tim Murray found it when we raised the issue some time later.
Roger Lund

#165 Tim Murray

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 16:35

ISTR our in-house thread researcher Tim Murray found it when we raised the issue some time later.
Roger Lund

You rang, sir?

Apropos of nothing at all really - other than having just rediscovered this pic - this is the most chilling thing I can recall seeing in my 40 years plus of being in thrall to racing cars: We found this -apparently hammered with a nail point - when sandblasting off the grime of decades on the carburettor body of one of the Auto Unions retrieved from Russia by Paul Karassik.

Posted Image

It made the short hairs on the back of the neck stand up...

What poor, brave, defiant, bastard - in what salt mine - might have hammered out this mark of defiance into this iconic symbol of the regime which was snuffing out his life????

Photo copyright: Doug Nye/GP Library


#166 bradbury west

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 18:16

You rang, sir?
Photo copyright: Doug Nye/GP Library


Many thanks, Tim. Searching under the keywords "Paul Karassik", here is the refreshed thread which Tim produced previously, post 4 refers, and a separate upload of DCN's original shot.
http://forums.autosp...l=Paul Karassik

Posted Image
Photo strictly copyright DCN/GP Library, all rights reserved.
click on image for larger view.
Roger Lund

Edited by bradbury west, 29 January 2013 - 18:19.


#167 GMACKIE

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 21:57

This thread is now worth reading, and interesting. :up:

#168 David Birchall

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 18:24

I have re-opened this thread because I believe that we need to offer support to Mark Hales-in whatever form you individually choose. I received the following this morning (I am sure many of you did to):

"To everybody who has been kind enough to donate...

My apologies for this round robin email, but the fund and its details has been kept remote from me for obvious reasons. The good people who set it up were obviously keen that Piper and his henchmen couldn't get their hands on it, but that means I haven't seen any of the messages. I wanted to send this much sooner but when a way was finally found to extract all the addresses from Paypal, they arrived as a long list. So here we are.

Thank you all so much for your support, it does mean a lot. It sounds trite to say that there are more deserving causes, because there certainly are, but when something affects you personally to this extent, it's very real indeed. Your help is very welcome, as have been the expressions of support from so many quarters. The fund has already meant that some of the legal bills have been paid.

At the moment, it isn't feasible that Piper can be paid off. The judgement was for £120,000, of which £63,000 (plus VAT) was his legal costs, and I do know that despite the generosity of many people, the fund stands a long way short of that. His lawyers are currently trying to take the family home which is deeply upsetting for my partner Allison but we are doing our very best to protect her interest. I didn't sign up to put our home, future livelihood and my sanity on the line in order to drive a millionaire's car for a magazine feature.

Thank you for any messages of support too and please excuse the fact that I am not able to reply individually. I am bearing up reasonably well and doing my best to get back to work. If I may, and now I have this list, I will keep you all advised of any developments

Thanks again.

Mark "


He still needs our support!

Edited by David Birchall, 04 March 2013 - 18:25.


#169 LittleBertha

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 18:33

I have re-opened this thread because I believe that we need to offer support to Mark Hales-in whatever form you individually choose
He still needs our support!


Visiit here to make a donation: Mark Hales Appeal





#170 kayemod

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 18:41

...Piper and his henchmen...it isn't feasible that Piper can be paid off...


This is cheap and nasty. I'd have been slightly more sympathetic if "Hales" had used a more respectful mode of address, this isn't going to help his cause very much.


#171 Mistron

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 19:08

emotional perhaps, but I think I can understand that it must be hard to keep a 'respectful' tone in the position he now finds himself.


#172 kayemod

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 19:46

emotional perhaps, but I think I can understand that it must be hard to keep a 'respectful' tone in the position he now finds himself.


He lost, and having seen the court transcript, he deserved to lose. "In the position he now finds himself", most would think that some humility is called for.


#173 David Birchall

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 20:05

I am sorry to hear the self righteousness expressed in several places in this thread. Hales is a journalist, not a lawyer, yes he made mistakes-his bloody lawyer made mistakes! However, in working to entertain the likes of us he is losing his home and reputation-HE DOES NOT DESERVE THAT!

#174 Guido22

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 22:37

Here, here, the blokes a bounder, can't kick a ball straight!

#175 Stephen W

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 09:16

If it had been settled without the court case the bill would have been less than £40k, I do feel that Hales was ill advised to pursue the matter in court. I am also upset that the whole sorry saga is now descending into a school yard name calling session.

:(



#176 Twin Window

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 22:44

I'm closing this thread as I believe everyone has had the chance to say their bit and also because I don't want to jeopardise this website in a legal sense.