194 replies to this topic

[SRK]

"Mike Elliott, the former chief aerodynamicist at Lotus"

According to my info Independent isn't responsible for the organizational structure in Enstone... but maybe I'm wrong ;) Elliott has worked for many years at McLaren as a low-level aerodynamics. In 2009 he was hired as one of the last employees by (his current chief, it is not case) Robert Bell, but still not-hight as a senior aerodynamicist. He was promoted but I don't remember how high. He probably was something group leader or principal aerodynamicist. Then His supervisor (project R31 leader) was higher rated Jonathan Somerville who came from Toyota and after year moved to Williams. Don't get me wrong Elliott is a wise guy and imo he will bloom in MGP as a aero cheif but he definitely wasn't Dirk DeBeer;)

[GodHimself]

Again, what is it you fail to grasp in this?

I fail to grasp how some people overestimate the importance of a driver. Lewis Hamilton is just a driver, a great driver, perhaps the most talented on the grid these days, but still just a driver. You fail to identify what a bigger picture really is here. The bigger picture is performance of the entire team consisting of hundreds of people, who work hard so that Lewis the driver can win something.

The problem Mercedes (or rather shall we say the Brackley team) have is that for years now, they have been constantly underachieving in terms of car potential and in-season development. What's even more worrying is that they keep having the same issues with the car for YEARS (tyres anyone?). This is what Toto Wolff should look closely at and analyse, this is what Brawn failed to do. You don't fix such fundamental issues by hiring some big-heads, the problem lies below - either in people or their equipment. Is it really that hard to see?

Edited by GodHimself, 28 January 2013 - 11:47.

[Timstr11]

Wolff was quite capable at Williams and Lauda already scored some successes for Mercedes in negotiating that brought the team forward quite a bit. The reshuffle is in full swing, and it has to be, as the last three years proved that the Brawn concept did not work. Well, maybe it was Schumacher's fault and Rosberg is just a journeyman driver - then you could blame the record of the last three years on the drivers.

Maybe they should have kept Button/Barrichello....

Lauda negotiated with Bernie on commercial matters. Bernie and Brawn do not get along.

The changes in the aero department happened last year. Lauda had nothing to do with it (he was not even appointed yet). It was Brawn and his technical team who made changes in the tech department. So it's not like they kept doing the same thing. Wait and see.

[Risil]

Some history on Lauda leading Jag:
http://www.telegraph...ars-hunger.html

Nice article.

Not sure what I like most out of Niki blaming his departure on a cabal of chair-leg-sawing Engishmen, or the journalist coolly responding to the reason the Jag board gave for Lauda's sacking -- "lack of technical depth" -- by noting the two previous team principals were former racing drivers themselves.

Edited by Risil, 28 January 2013 - 12:08.

[Szoelloe]

I fail to grasp how some people overestimate the importance of a driver. Lewis Hamilton is just a driver, a great driver, perhaps the most talented on the grid these days, but still just a driver. You fail to identify what a bigger picture really is here. The bigger picture is performance of the entire team consisting of hundreds of people, who work hard so that Lewis the driver can win something.

The problem Mercedes (or rather shall we say the Brackley team) have is that for years now, they have been constantly underachieving in terms of car potential and in-season development. What's even more worrying is that they keep having the same issues with the car for YEARS (tyres anyone?). This is what Toto Wolff should look closely at and analyse, this is what Brawn failed to do. You don't fix such fundamental issues by hiring some big-heads, the problem lies below - either in people or their equipment. Is it really that hard to see?

Have I ovestimated LH? I was speaking of the significance of his hiring. As to what Wolff has to do is his concern. That part of your post has been attended to many times the past month or two. How it pans out we will see. that is the only answer you will get as to your opinion. It is tiresome.

[DutchCruijff]

How can someone with the record of multiple championships go on being surrounded with 'tards for three years?

Because Mercedes were frugal at the beginning, because they could only recruit RB/McLaren/Ferrari rejects, because he doesn't set the team's budget etc. etc. As per, a silly question.

[DutchCruijff]

In which case it's still his fault since he as the guy in charge, is responsible for bringing the right people to the team and using they skills in a right way. He failed to do so an am sure will need to answer some serious questions. If I was Toto Wolff I would simply fire him, because on every possible level, this team under the reign of Brawn is a failure. Even in the race strategy department.

Was he the one who designed the wheelbase? Was he the one who designed DDRS? Was he the one who implemented the exhaust? Was his design the fault for the Merc's shitty tyres? When you've got such a dire car on your hands, the way to make gains is to risk the team strategy ie. 1 lap run in Q2 as opposed to 2 because you just know tomorrow your car is going to react badly to the tyres. He's the team principal not the chief designer.

[DutchCruijff]

Wolff was quite capable at Williams and Lauda already scored some successes for Mercedes in negotiating that brought the team forward quite a bit. The reshuffle is in full swing, and it has to be, as the last three years proved that the Brawn concept did not work. Well, maybe it was Schumacher's fault and Rosberg is just a journeyman driver - then you could blame the record of the last three years on the drivers.

Maybe they should have kept Button/Barrichello....

Lauda is senile, poor at Jaguar, dire at Ferrari and his airline is hardly setting the world alight, pardon the unintended reference to Lauda's past .

[GodHimself]

Have I ovestimated LH? I was speaking of the significance of his hiring.

And that's precisely my point, his signing is insignificant in the context of problems this team is facing, since he is not going to fix them. I was replying to the poster who was wondering if Hamilton would leave if Brawn was forced out - I think that's not something that should be of particular concern to Wolff at the moment.

[GodHimself]

Was he the one who designed the wheelbase? Was he the one who designed DDRS? Was he the one who implemented the exhaust? Was his design the fault for the Merc's shitty tyres? When you've got such a dire car on your hands, the way to make gains is to risk the team strategy ie. 1 lap run in Q2 as opposed to 2 because you just know tomorrow your car is going to react badly to the tyres. He's the team principal not the chief designer.

Do you know what manager/team leader's job is about? It's about problem setting and skill managment. He was not the one responsible for all those things you mention, but he is responsible for the people who were. If they are not up for the job, then they should be replaced or reassigned to other tasks.

[DutchCruijff]

Do you know what manager/team leader's job is about? It's about problem setting and skill managment. He was not the one responsible for all those things you mention, but he is responsible for the people who were. If they are not up for the job, then they should be replaced or reassigned to other tasks.

Uhhh, have you not seen the massive influx of designers/directors? Also, have you not heard of the, IIRC, two big shake-ups within the team within the last 3 years? I'd say that you haven't been following Mercedes very closely.

[flatlander48]

I fail to grasp how some people overestimate the importance of a driver.

Yes, they could have just hired Alex Yoong and been done with it...

[Risil]

Adam Cooper's got an interesting take on the sitch at Speed TV dot com. Some things to take away:

-- Ross Brawn says that Paddy Lowe was approached as part of Mercedes's succession plan, even though he's given no thought to retiring. When the news became public, things turned from management best practice to undermining in the extreme. Guess who made the leak.

-- Officially, Mercedes GP's board has just two members, Lauda and the road car division's head of R&D, Tomas Weber.

-- Do not underestimate Niki Lauda. The biggest problem of having him in the management is his questionable commitment to anyone other than Niki Lauda.

-- In the last two paragraphs Brawn/Cooper appears to be preparing us for the possibility that Mercedes delivers a quick car in 2013, and Lauda being quick to assume all credit for the turnaround. Be afraid.

[Edited, thx PAYR]

Edited by Risil, 28 January 2013 - 14:25.

[PayasYouRace]

Or maybe even 2013, Risil?

[GodHimself]

Yes, they could have just hired Alex Yoong and been done with it...

Aren't we being a bit simplistic (intentionally I presume)?

[aditya-now]

Lauda negotiated with Bernie on commercial matters. Bernie and Brawn do not get along.

The changes in the aero department happened last year. Lauda had nothing to do with it (he was not even appointed yet). It was Brawn and his technical team who made changes in the tech department. So it's not like they kept doing the same thing. Wait and see.

You forget that it was Lauda's talk with Lewis that finally sealed the deal. So besides doing the commercial and political talk with Bernie (Niki and Bernie are no strangers to each other...) Lauda finalized what was an earthquake to the driver market.

[aditya-now]

Interesting article indeed, thanks for making us aware of it, Risil.

[Risil]

Or maybe even 2013, Risil?

I'm an artist, not a fact checker.

[Szoelloe]

Aren't we being a bit simplistic (intentionally I presume)?

don't act so surprised, it is not that more complicated than your opinion.

You forget that it was Lauda's talk with Lewis that finally sealed the deal. So besides doing the commercial and political talk with Bernie (Niki and Bernie are no strangers to each other...) Lauda finalized what was an earthquake to the driver market.

ehhm, no, LH had contact before Lauda. I hardly think Lh would have signed if presented with the current situation, or if Brawn was not micro managing the tech and sporting affairs at Merc.

Interesting article indeed, thanks for making us aware of it, Risil.

that's four(edit: 3 (timstr linked it) days old, and has been posted all over the net. It is, in fact the first proof of Lauda meddling with things. As I said before, Merc just opened Pandora's box. Marko is pretty similar btw. But there is a HUGE difference between the two of them: Marko has a leash, and the other end is in the hands of Mateschitz, who is pretty good at knowing when enough is enough, but throws his pet some tasties. Lauda has no leash. He was let loose, now he not only barks, he will bite too. Dr. Z has made the dumbest decision in his life.

Edited by Szoelloe, 28 January 2013 - 16:56.

[BoschKurve]

that's four(edit: 3 (timstr linked it) days old, and has been posted all over the net. It is, in fact the first proof of Lauda meddling with things. As I said before, Merc just opened Pandora's box. Marko is pretty similar btw. But there is a HUGE difference between the two of them: Marko has a leash, and the other end is in the hands of Mateschitz, who is pretty good at knowing when enough is enough, but throws his pet some tasties. Lauda has no leash. He was let loose, now he not only barks, he will bite too. Dr. Z has made the dumbest decision in his life.

DrZ is clueless regarding this whole Grand Prix adventure he has committed Mercedes to. I think the whole thing was one of those pet projects of his, only he didn't realize what a bad situation he could open Daimler up too with his little vision of the Silver Arrows winning championships like it was the 1950s. Too many people are mesmerized by the legend of Mercedes from nearly 60 years ago, and lose all rational thought when it comes to this team.

Even worse with Lauda is not only does he not have a leash, but he now has a 10% stake in the team. So much for that claim people were making that it was a "figurehead" position with no real power.

[flatlander48]

Aren't we being a bit simplistic (intentionally I presume)?

In equal proportion to your underestimation.

Question:
Considering ALL of the personnel who work for a Formula 1 team, who gets paid the most?

Edited by flatlander48, 29 January 2013 - 04:36.

[GodHimself]

(I'm sorry...)

You aren't an engineer of any kind, are you? Because if you were, you wouldn't be asking such questions. It would be obvious to you that a driver is just a driver in this immensely complicated sport. Having said that, yes a driver can make one hell of a difference (and they often do). They are the ones who get to drive these cars after all. So they ARE important, but not in any way relevant to what I was talking about (problems of the Brackley team).

As for who gets paid the most and why, that's not the topic of this discussion, but it's an interesting one nonetheless and may be worth having it's own thread.

Edited by GodHimself, 29 January 2013 - 13:13.

[flatlander48]

(I'm sorry...)

You aren't an engineer of any kind, are you? Because if you were, you wouldn't be asking such questions. It would be obvious to you that a driver is just a driver in this immensely complicated sport. Having said that, yes a driver can make one hell of a difference (and they often do). They are the ones who get to drive these cars after all. So they ARE important, but not in any way relevant to what I was talking about (problems of the Brackley team).

As for who gets paid the most and why, that's not the topic of this discussion, but it's an interesting one nonetheless and may be worth having it's own thread.

I guess is possible to make a career of being wrong.

Degreed mechanical engineer, 40 years experience including supervision, computer programming and simulation analyst; worked on 3 continents. 2 patents, PE license.

The point is that regardless of how good the weapon is, the warrior must use the weapon effectively. If you have inferior warriors, the fitness of the weapon is irrelevant.

Edited by flatlander48, 29 January 2013 - 23:57.

[r4mses]

The answer to the question of "who gets paid the most in a F1 team?" is more down to demand and supply of people capable of driving the cars. There're far less people able to drive a car near its limits then people able to build one, I'd say.

Edited by r4mses, 29 January 2013 - 19:33.

[flatlander48]

The answer to the question of "who gets paid the most in a F1 team?" is more down to demand and supply of people capable of driving the cars. There're far less people able to drive a car near its limits then people able to build one, I'd say.

Agreed, but it was actually a rhetorical question...

[TF110]

We only have a few days till the new car is shown. I wonder who will make an appearance besides Brawn and the drivers. Perhaps it'll give us a glimpse into who stands where in the team. Not a lot can be read into it, but I would pay attention to what questions are asked (if any) about this situation at the launch.

Edited by TF110, 30 January 2013 - 00:43.

[V8 Fireworks]

In equal proportion to your underestimation.

Question:
Considering ALL of the personnel who work for a Formula 1 team, who gets paid the most?

Adrian Newey

[flatlander48]

Adrian Newey

Newey is rumored at $10,000,000 per year.
However...

2012 F1 Salaries List

01. Fernando Alonso €30 million ($37.24 million)
02. Lewis Hamilton €16 million ($19.86 million)
= Jenson Button €16 million ($19.86 million)
04. Sebastian Vettel €10 million ($12.41 million)
= Mark Webber €10 million ($12.41 million)
= Felipe Massa €10 million ($12.41 million)
= Nico Rosberg €10 million ($12.41 million)
08. Michael Schumacher €8 million ($9.93 million)
09. Kimi Raikkonen €5 million ($6.21 million)
10. Heikki Kovalainen €4 million ($4.97 million)`
11. Timo Glock €3 million ($3.72 million)
12. Kamui Kobayashi €1 million ($1.24 million)
= Romain Grosjean €1 million ($1.24 million)
14. Nico Hulkenberg €500,000 ($620650.00)
= Sergio Perez €500,000 ($620650.00)
= Vitaly Petrov €500,000 ($620650.00)
= Pedro de la Rosa €500,000 ($620650.00)
18. Jean-Eric Vergne €400,000 ($496520.00)
= Daniel Ricciardo €400,000 ($496520.00)
= Pastor Maldonado €400,000 ($496520.00)
21. Bruno Senna €250,000 ($310325.00)
= Nairan Karthikeyan €250,000 ($310325.00)
23. Paul di Resta €200,000 ($248260.00)
24. Charles Pic €150,000 ($186195.00)


Source: Business Book GP 2012

[packapoo]

Is Toto the bottle washer too?

[FirstnameLastname]

Seems like a bit of a side step for him - part of the catering budget?

[7MGTEsup]

Seems like a bit of a side step for him - part of the catering budget?

 

Why dig up a 10 year old thread to add that?

[Gambelli]

I was so confused!!!!

[alframsey]

What's going on?

[Myrvold]

Why dig up a 10 year old thread to add that?

 

Who knows. But after reading chef - I am now hungry like a Wolf(f)

[Widefoot2]

Reading the list of drivers in post #178 brings a tear to the eye - Petrov, Maldonado, Senna, Karthikeyan - I was so sure they were F1's future...

 

 

[Future ex-drivers]

 

 

Do miss Kobayashi, I feel he's one of the "what ifs" of the sport.

[noikeee]

Reading the list of drivers in post #178 brings a tear to the eye - Petrov, Maldonado, Senna, Karthikeyan - I was so sure they were F1's future...

 

 

[Future ex-drivers]

 

 

Do miss Kobayashi, I feel he's one of the "what ifs" of the sport.

 

Karthikeyan?   

 

That was a real dud of a generation really, except for Ricciardo who came through at about the same time, or a year later. Kobayashi would probably be where Perez is now, they were as equal as they could possibly be at Sauber.

[Widefoot2]

Karthikeyan?   

 

That was a real dud of a generation really, except for Ricciardo who came through at about the same time, or a year later. Kobayashi would probably be where Perez is now, they were as equal as they could possibly be at Sauber.

 

You missed my "[Future ex-drivers]"? 

 

Yeah, that year wasn't exemplary for new driver talent, but perhaps some could have done better with more time. I do wonder if Jean-Eric Vergne could have had a longer run if his qualifying was better, but DR and KK were the ones I thought were pretty good.

[YamahaV10]

Seems like a bit of a side step for him - part of the catering budget?

How about some context ? What happened ? Link ?

[romaincrouton]

Ha when I saw this pop up I thought Merc were taking a leaf out of Red Bulls book. Head chef making spicy wings for minimum wage….

[Gambelli]

I can't believe it's been 10 years since Wolff was the Mercedes Chef, it's a long time, seems like only yesterday, but that the same time he's also come so far and now pretty much runs the team.

 

Whats a signature dish for Austria?  Schnitzel?  Sausage?

[Anderis]

 Kobayashi would probably be where Perez is now, they were as equal as they could possibly be at Sauber.

I've always rated Perez over Kobayashi. They've been close to each other but Kobayashi was more experienced at the time and the balance was shifting towards Perez.

 

Perez outqualified Kobayashi 5 times in a row in the last 5 race weekends of 2012 and we all know qualifying has never been Perez' strong suit.

[1player]

Does anyone know if Toto has ever visited Croydon??

[Myrvold]

How about some context ? What happened ? Link ?

Thread title ;)

[milestone 11]

Thread title ;)

I was confused too. Saw the thread and thought how on earth can it be four pages since my last visit, guessed Toto must have been accused of cooking the books, clicked the button and went directly to page 4. Then the penny dropped.

Edited by milestone 11, 26 July 2023 - 10:51.

[Widefoot2]

Does anyone know if Toto has ever visited Croydon??

Wait, is that the holdup regarding re-signing Lewis? A requirement to stay away (or to visit?)?