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Paddy Lowe to Mercedes?


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#201 jrg19

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 16:52

More and more sources are carrying this now, including the BBC (Benson and EJ). Big moves by Merc, they're going for a serious push.


Team to watch this season and next.

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#202 Szoelloe

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 16:53

I thinks it's only logical to assume that no way in hell Mercedes Board would "keep" & "pay" ALL of these bigwigs together in 2013. Here's a list if Mercedes doesn't fire anyone:-

-Hamilton+Rosberg (Salaried)
-Ross Brawn
-Nick Fry
-Geoff Willis
-Bob Bell
-Aldo Costa
-Mike Elliot
-Nikki Lauda
-Toto Wolff
-Paddy Lowe

How can Mercedes afford the abovd list... and how are they then going to fund the cars development in 2013 if they go broke before season has even started. So if they are making changes, Brawn & his recruits are gonna go... Or why bother in the first place with Toto & Lowe.

Just like drivers have a perform-by-date (Schumi)... So does Brawn. Corporates can't keep emloyees due to their past history... all Merc care about is what Brawn & Schumi did at Mercedes.


You got really mixed up there. Lauda and Wolff you can take that out from the afford list, since they are not payed in the sense you imply? You can take lowe off the list too, for 2013? Willis, Bell, and Costa are working on the next 2 cars they produce. They will not touch Brawn until they see if the W04 perform. If it doesn't Brawn will go by Barcelona. They need Elliot, because he is the aero guy. That leaves you with Fry. Not a big save. If they want Lowe, its 2014, not before.


#203 BackOnTop

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 16:56

If the Merc board think Brawn is the issue I think they have missed the point. Merc bought Brawn, which was Honda which was BAR. The team needs more than leadership from the top it needs a good team from the base up which i think it has always lacked. 2009 was Brawn pushing the rules and he should be applauded for that. Otherwise the team on the whole has been weak and that is not the fault of Brawn.

Well, to have a counter argument:
-Brawn let go of Jenson Button, losing Mercedes a "current" champion & no.1 on their cars. It's worth it for a new team.
-Brawn instead hires Schumi @ more millions, an ageing star in a New Team.

So Brawn is directly responsible for Mercedes performance. Nothing against Schumi though, not his fault if someone wants to hire him.


#204 Les

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 16:57

Brawn just got a vote of confidence from Wolff, so that's Brawn out then.


Yep.

Brawn at McLaren - stranger things have happened and presumably McLaren are going to have a gap to plug somehow but you would still think Williams (or retirement) would be more likely destinations for Brawn.

#205 Owen

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 16:58

http://www1.skysport...ent-restructure

#206 BackOnTop

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 17:01

You got really mixed up there. Lauda and Wolff you can take that out from the afford list, since they are not payed in the sense you imply? You can take lowe off the list too, for 2013? Willis, Bell, and Costa are working on the next 2 cars they produce. They will not touch Brawn until they see if the W04 perform. If it doesn't Brawn will go by Barcelona. They need Elliot, because he is the aero guy. That leaves you with Fry. Not a big save. If they want Lowe, its 2014, not before.

You do realize I hope that for everyone including Shareholders... There is only one source of income from Formula 1- The Mercedes team.

You can share the pot however you like... With few competent people or all of the above. Money is limited.

#207 Burtros

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 17:10

Ive skipped to the end of this as Im just going out the door.... but having read the article if McLaren loose Paddy Lowe to Mercedes I would be beside myself.

In recent years there has been a lot of established names within the team leave for pastures new. Its very concerning when you consider the gap between Ferrari and McLaren at the first race last year, yet Ferrari beat them in the championship.

As a McLaren fan these are deeply worrying times.

Edited by Burtros, 22 January 2013 - 17:10.


#208 Raziel

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 17:21

A picture is worth a thousand words..

Posted Image

we all know what will happen if they fail in 2013 and 2014 especially 2014.

#209 ivand911

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 17:29

Well, to have a counter argument:
-Brawn let go of Jenson Button, losing Mercedes a "current" champion & no.1 on their cars. It's worth it for a new team.
-Brawn instead hires Schumi @ more millions, an ageing star in a New Team.

So Brawn is directly responsible for Mercedes performance. Nothing against Schumi though, not his fault if someone wants to hire him.

I feel bad for you , that Schumi didn't fulfill your expectations in shit cars he drove at MGP. I see you like to mention him a lot. When Nico match Lewis this year, we will see than Schumi at 43 was not bad at all.
Looking what happen, I feel happy that he left that team and I don't see any reason things will change there(in the team). What is happening now doesn't help sport side of the team at all. Last think they are thinking now is W04. I don't put Lowe above Bell or Costa or Willis, so I don't see how he will change anything. Just another TD at MGP.

Edited by ivand911, 22 January 2013 - 17:30.


#210 SunnyENTP

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 17:35

One of Red Bull's main strengths imo is that they have a clear head of design, Adrian Newey. Mercedes seem to be heading for 4 or 5 TD's, it's going to very difficult to coordinate.

This sounds very much like Lauda's MO which, I would say, is not encouraging



Yes like Ferrari in the 90's and look how they messed up :stoned:

What Mercedes is doing is what McLaren have been doing for the last couple of years. 2 teams each one alternating the car design. Of course they have lost a lot of their staff to Ferrari and now it appears more to Merc.

#211 10e10

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 17:41

That's good news for Mercedes and bad news for McLaren, but it's not like they will hire a silver bullet, I mean, Lowe is a great asset for McLaren and all, but with him in charge McLaren didn't win a WCC in years, so it's not like Mercedes is hiring an instant championship.

#212 anti

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 17:41

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#213 BackOnTop

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 18:11

I feel bad for you , that Schumi didn't fulfill your expectations in shit cars he drove at MGP. I see you like to mention him a lot. When Nico match Lewis this year, we will see than Schumi at 43 was not bad at all.
Looking what happen, I feel happy that he left that team and I don't see any reason things will change there(in the team). What is happening now doesn't help sport side of the team at all. Last think they are thinking now is W04. I don't put Lowe above Bell or Costa or Willis, so I don't see how he will change anything. Just another TD at MGP.

Don't take it personally, I got nothing against him. Blaming the car is easy for his fans to justify his 3 year failed performance.

Schumi wasn't hired by Brawn to match Rosberg (which didn't happen as well), but to perform & help Mercedes in development feedback as well. Rosberg got multiple podiums & 1 win in that same car!!

Brawn, or more to the point, Mercedes expected equal results at least from a driver hyped up to win WDC for Mercedes. It's disappointing, or Mercedes wouldn't have asked Schumi to leave.

Now Lowe might be hired, so it's possible Mercedes may ask Brawn to go home. Mercedes is not Ferrari... So they don't care a jot what these guys did for another team way back when. Merc pays now, so they logically are looking at performance too.

Edited by BackOnTop, 22 January 2013 - 18:15.


#214 ivand911

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 18:46

Don't take it personally, I got nothing against him. Blaming the car is easy for his fans to justify his 3 year failed performance.

Schumi wasn't hired by Brawn to match Rosberg (which didn't happen as well), but to perform & help Mercedes in development feedback as well. Rosberg got multiple podiums & 1 win in that same car!!

So, you are telling now, that car was race winning car and only problem in the team was Schumi? When car was any good at all MS has 5 DNF from 7 races(including China and Monaco). Everyone knew why they hire him, only problem is they didn't give him a car to do it. For matching Nico ,we will see next year how easy this is. For me Michael matched him for the last 2 years. He improved Qualy to match Nico 10:10. Rest was the car. You can't win if you can't finish. In last 7-8 races ,W03 was 8-9 best car on the grid. Even STR were faster. Michael clearly knew what is going to happen and he decide to leave. He doesn't fancy working with Lauda. And Brawn on his way out, so there is nothing to keep him in that team.

http://translate.goo...n_12122205.html
But, what Jock Clear knows? Some fans here know more.

Edited by ivand911, 22 January 2013 - 18:58.


#215 as65p

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 18:51

A picture is worth a thousand words..

Posted Image

we all know what will happen if they fail in 2013 and 2014 especially 2014.


I know only the germans will get this, but anyway...

:D

#216 BackOnTop

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 19:04

So, you are telling now, that car was race winning car and only problem in the team was Schumi? When car was any good at all MS has 5 DNF from 7 races(including China and Monaco). Everyone knew why they hire him, only problem is they didn't give him a car to do it. For matching Nico ,we will see next year how easy this is. For me Michael matched him for the last 2 years. He improved Qualy to match Nico 10:10. Rest was the car. You can't win if you can't finish. In last 7-8 races ,W03 was 8-9 best car on the grid. Even STR were faster. Michael clearly knew what is going to happen and he decide to leave. He doesn't fancy working with Lauda. And Brawn on his way out, so there is nothing to keep him in that team.

No, I am not saying anything & i feel for your sentiments regarding Msc.

All I am statkng is that Mercedes has been a "collective" failure for 3 years running, and that Msc is definitely part of that collection. Like it or not, Brawn-Schumi combo wasn't successful for Mercedes.

Hence these changes, which started with Schumi getting replaced by Hamilton & then Haug being let go. If Lowe comes, Merc would most likely tell Brawn to go home too. No need to get irritated or bring stats.... & if Nico was another Vettel, why would they feel the need to hire Hamilton!

You are missing the point with Nico comparision... at the same time validating how average Schumi has been.

#217 study

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 19:07

That's good news for Mercedes and bad news for McLaren, but it's not like they will hire a silver bullet, I mean, Lowe is a great asset for McLaren and all, but with him in charge McLaren didn't win a WCC in years, so it's not like Mercedes is hiring an instant championship.


Yep but it wasn't a design failure but a race team failure that they have won so little recently

#218 ivand911

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 19:12

No, I am not saying anything & i feel for your sentiments regarding Msc.

All I am statkng is that Mercedes has been a "collective" failure for 3 years running, and that Msc is definitely part of that collection. Like it or not, Brawn-Schumi combo wasn't successful for Mercedes.

Hence these changes, which started with Schumi getting replaced by Hamilton & then Haug being let go. If Lowe comes, Merc would most likely tell Brawn to go home too. No need to get irritated or bring stats.... & if Nico was another Vettel, why would they feel the need to hire Hamilton!

You are missing the point with Nico comparision... at the same time validating how average Schumi has been.

Since when you follow that team? Schumi at MGP has nothing to do with Schumi at Ferrari. He was just driver at MGP. He never felt at home there. There wasn't Brawn-Schumi combo. As there wasn't Brawn-Nico combo. MGP wasn't the same team as Ferrari, they operate differently. Also, No tests as you probably know. For sure he wasn't big fan of "no development" idea they implemented last year. I told you, lets wait and see how average Nico is. He is on multi year contract you know.
And if W04 is not better than W03 , then I don't see great 2013 for Lewis either. Off course this will be his "fault" then. :lol:

Edited by ivand911, 22 January 2013 - 19:29.


#219 BackOnTop

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 19:38

Since when you follow that team? Schumi at MGP has nothing to do with Schumi at Ferrari. He was just driver at MGP. He never felt at home there. There wasn't Brawn-Schumi combo. As there wasn't Brawn-Nico combo. MGP wasn't the same team as Ferrari, they operate differently. Also, No tests as you probably know. For sure he wasn't big fan of "no development" idea they implemented last year. I told you, lets wait and see how average Nico is. He is on multi year contract you know.
And if W04 is not better than W03 , then I don't see great 2013 for Lewis either. Off course this will be his "fault" then. :lol:

Whatever, suit yourself. You leading this way off topic into driver1 vs driver3 vs driver2.

Not interested. The bottomline remains, Mercedes didn't exactly like the 3 years that just went by coz it was a complete failure, except for China... Hence these changes in personnel.

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#220 10e10

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 19:47

Yep but it wasn't a design failure but a race team failure that they have won so little recently


That is relevant for 2012 alone.

#221 F1Champion

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 19:59

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Not necessarily. McLaren have stuttered to make good cars, that could also be down to Paddy Lowe. Just as this is an opportunity for Mercedes, this is an opportunity for McLaren. There are a lot of very talented people in F1 who would want TD at McLaren. Fry might re-look at McLaren (doubtful though with his roadmap for Ferrari), James Key, Bob Bell, Aldo Costa, Sam Michael (although doubtful), Nikolas Tombazis, Rob Marshall. McLaren could do with a reinjection of new technical direction.

#222 F1EC

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 22:35

Well, to have a counter argument:
-Brawn let go of Jenson Button, losing Mercedes a "current" champion & no.1 on their cars. It's worth it for a new team.
-Brawn instead hires Schumi @ more millions, an ageing star in a New Team.

So Brawn is directly responsible for Mercedes performance. Nothing against Schumi though, not his fault if someone wants to hire him.


Schumacher was a great frontman for Merc, for selling cars. Button didn't have the same cachet. I don't see Button being a great salesman for the McLaren road cars either - his name isn't well known enough outside of F1.

I don't see how hiring Schumi can be seen as a mistake in the greater scheme of things, especially for the entertainment side of F1. Bernie must have loved having him back. But he had a limited shelf-life. If Merc now want to focus on F1 as well as selling cars, they've gone about it the right way by hiring Hamilton. He's the biggest media draw in F1, and he's a bloody good driver.

#223 Kingshark

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 00:24

Eddie Jordan: “Paddy Lowe is going to Mercedes and it would appear that Brawn and Fry are on their way out, and Lowe will be there in a very senior capacity.”

BBC Sports - Formula 1: Ross Brawn role at Mercedes under threat

Toto Wolff: “I haven’t been in Brackley yet I have had conversations with Ross. I admire what Ross has done but I need to understand the structure and what Ross has done.”

Wolff: No Merc changes for now (Sky)

#224 Nobody

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:15

Not necessarily. McLaren have stuttered to make good cars, that could also be down to Paddy Lowe. Just as this is an opportunity for Mercedes, this is an opportunity for McLaren. There are a lot of very talented people in F1 who would want TD at McLaren. Fry might re-look at McLaren (doubtful though with his roadmap for Ferrari), James Key, Bob Bell, Aldo Costa, Sam Michael (although doubtful), Nikolas Tombazis, Rob Marshall. McLaren could do with a reinjection of new technical direction.


:up:

#225 ermo

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:43

I knew I had read something where Jenson mentioned his thoughts on Paddy Lowe leaving McLaren:

Asked whether he will rue Hamilton's departure from McLaren, Button said: "I'm not disappointed because there's always change.

"I'd be disappointed if Paddy Lowe moved from the team because that's the guy who's going to help me achieve in the future.

"Whereas with Lewis, drivers come and go and people change, and that's pretty normal in the sport.


If this story pans out and Lowe does end up following Lewis to Merc... well, there you go Jenson. :smoking:

Edited by ermo, 23 January 2013 - 02:44.


#226 nomi

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:49

How rich is this Toto guy, 30% of Merc F1 is how much??

#227 teejay

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 04:45

Nominally probably 20/30 million?

#228 RedOne

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 05:30

I would be surprised if Ross was replaced unwillingly, can only see him leaving on his own terms.

#229 moorsey

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 08:53

Not necessarily. McLaren have stuttered to make good cars, that could also be down to Paddy Lowe. Just as this is an opportunity for Mercedes, this is an opportunity for McLaren. There are a lot of very talented people in F1 who would want TD at McLaren. Fry might re-look at McLaren (doubtful though with his roadmap for Ferrari), James Key, Bob Bell, Aldo Costa, Sam Michael (although doubtful), Nikolas Tombazis, Rob Marshall. McLaren could do with a reinjection of new technical direction.


I have thought for many years that the main reason for McLaren not achieving what they should, has been that they are unwilling to push the limits of the rules, or to make their own "interpretation" if you like. They seem afraid of what the sponsors might think if they were to be accused of "cheating" like RB have been accused. If this is the case then it could be that Paddy Lowe has been offered a postion without these restraints which would give him a free hand with the inventiveness and, as an engineer myself, I can see the benefits of being able to do this and show how good he is. If Merc turns out to be a winner he will gain even more esteem from the F1 fans.

#230 Levike

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 08:55

I think that while the results were not reflecting that points-wise, but until his retire-announcement Schumacher had the upper hand on Rosberg. I had this feeling watching them. It was only extremely bad luck which prevented to show this in the points.
So it was not Schumacher's fault, it was MGP's fault that his return to the sport was a "failure".
I never liked Schumacher in his prime, but in my opinion , he can stand proud .

#231 karlth

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:03

... McLaren could do with a reinjection of new technical direction.


There was nothing wrong with the pace of the McLaren car last year.


#232 aditya-now

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:12

Does Lauda think he's a big godfather, it's so sleazy to think what he's doing.

Toto Wolff as principal, wonder what the hell Lewis is thinking.


I don't think Lauda thinks anything. Only, some people have underestimated the influence that Lauda has in F1 circles. Welcome to the bigger game, a game that last for decades. Wonder why Jackie Stewart gets increasingly desperate with his word offerings - criticizing this and that? He has no foothold in the inner circles of power of F1. While he remains a media darling, he can't really influence. Lauda does.

#233 mstar

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:21

I think its a matter of time now, discussions are going on between lowe, mclaren and merc.
Also, time for MW to try and convince paddy to stay. Brawn isn't going anywhere until paddy is official signed. So this saga may drag on for a bit.

#234 Owen

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:06

http://joesaward.wor...-of-paddy-lowe/

#235 peroa

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:13

http://joesaward.wor...-of-paddy-lowe/

Nothing new there (because he doesn't know more than we do), but he sure used a lot of words, as usual.

#236 Tract1on

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:32

Jumping the gun perhaps?
Wasnt Wolff reportedly in the process of bringing Lowe to Williams, perhaps a deal has already been done there?
Williams were looking for a replacement for Mark Gillian, Peter Windsor has been tweeting about some really good people coming to Williams, so surely its not inconcievable that Lowe could end up at Williams?
Mercedes dont need any more technical people, im all for Brawn and Fry leaving and a general reshuffle, lets face it 2012 was poor for a team like Mercedes.

#237 jrg19

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:07

I knew I had read something where Jenson mentioned his thoughts on Paddy Lowe leaving McLaren:



If this story pans out and Lowe does end up following Lewis to Merc... well, there you go Jenson. :smoking:


Pretty crazy if that happens.

#238 Sakae

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 13:33

BBC Sports - Formula 1: Ross Brawn role at Mercedes under threat

Wolff: No Merc changes for now (Sky)

The same interview, two different headlines, and neither is accurate, when one takes time to read Toto's response. Fair to say, Brawn's performance on the job will be under review, as everyone else's, and conclusion has not been reached. That could have been expected, yet where I was wrong several months ago is, that I thought Lauda would do that.

Edited by Sakae, 23 January 2013 - 13:34.


#239 D.M.N.

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 13:39

I knew I had read something where Jenson mentioned his thoughts on Paddy Lowe leaving McLaren:



If this story pans out and Lowe does end up following Lewis to Merc... well, there you go Jenson. :smoking:

I wonder if there were rumours in McLaren before Christmas and Jenson said that to try and persuade him otherwise?

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#240 maverick69

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 13:41

I wonder if there were rumours in McLaren before Christmas and Jenson said that to try and persuade him otherwise?


That's the first thing that I thought. I mean - why specifically mention Paddy Lowe?

Seems a bit of of kilt with JB's modus operandi.

#241 flatlander48

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 14:00

Yes like Ferrari in the 90's and look how they messed up :stoned:

What Mercedes is doing is what McLaren have been doing for the last couple of years. 2 teams each one alternating the car design. Of course they have lost a lot of their staff to Ferrari and now it appears more to Merc.


I think McLaren stopped that practice when Fry was ushered out...

Edited by flatlander48, 23 January 2013 - 14:00.


#242 skinnylizard

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 14:36

i would expect some serious machtpolitik .. it could turn into a goldmine in two seasons or the freaking Titanic.

#243 1Devil1

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 14:40

i would expect some serious machtpolitik .. it could turn into a goldmine in two seasons or the freaking Titanic.


What Politik? Can you use that obviously german phrase in english? What's that something like Doppelganger or Sauerkraut :lol:

Edited by 1Devil1, 23 January 2013 - 14:42.


#244 MirNyet

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 15:30

Not sure if this has been mentioned - but could Lowe have problems with Michaels? If so, could this have fueled a desire to leave?

#245 skinnylizard

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 15:56

What Politik? Can you use that obviously german phrase in english? What's that something like Doppelganger or Sauerkraut :lol:


http://www.merriam-w...ry/machtpolitik :cool:

Edited by skinnylizard, 23 January 2013 - 15:57.


#246 BernieEc

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 15:57

the saga continues........

Pay rise to convince Lowe to remain at McLaren?

http://www.gptoday.c...ain_at_McLaren/

Seems Macca don't want to let go and are ready to open the famous cheque book..............speculations of course!!

#247 pinkypants

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 16:04

the saga continues........

Pay rise to convince Lowe to remain at McLaren?

http://www.gptoday.c...ain_at_McLaren/

Seems Macca don't want to let go and are ready to open the famous cheque book..............speculations of course!!


COME TO MERC!!! GO ONNN!! Merc gets some info on the 2013 and 14 McLaren and info on a direct competitor.. one that uses the same engines ... this info is worth Mr Lowe's salary many times over.... :up:

Still, nothing is finalised, and this is likely just contract negotiations via the media... got to love it! Mr Lowe gets more money/better position... Merc have some moderate success in destabilising McLaren... Meanwhile Marco and Alonso are arguing over who wants each other less, Alonso and Hamilton fawn over each other (no you're the best,... no after you...) Vettel is maybe sort of definitely going to Ferrari, as is Webber and Horner...

Lot's of mind games, positioning and media manipulation going on here. Have to say it's made the off season interesting...

Having said that the team it's hurting most is Merc. So Mr Lowe, make up your mind, if it's a challenge you want then Merc it is. If it's for money please do us a favour and stay at McLaren :) Let Ron show he can get the big boys cheque book out for the people he really wants to keep.

But most of all make your mind up.... :/

Edited by pinkypants, 23 January 2013 - 16:36.


#248 F1ultimate

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 16:07

It's the Lewis saga all over and I think it will boil down to whether or not Lowe wants to work with Lewis or not.

#249 BernieEc

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 16:10

It's the Lewis saga all over and I think it will boil down to whether or not Lowe wants to work with Lewis or not.


I was just about to say that... you beat me to it

#250 f1fastestlap

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 16:45

It's the Lewis saga all over and I think it will boil down to whether or not Lowe wants to work with Lewis or not.


You're exaggerating a bit...