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Lotus E21


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#51 Rosberg

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 17:02

What time are they unveiling the car?

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#52 Cool Beans

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 17:07

You said others had greater aerodynamic efficiency - which I was pointing out does not apply at all levels of downforce.

Red Bull run comparatively more downforce because that is more efficient for their concept, others run less downforce because that is more efficient for theirs.

You could have two cars, one with more downforce and more drag and the other a lower downforce and less draggy car, have exactly the same downforce/drag ratio.

But not all downforce is created equal. Putting on more wing creates a lot of drag but a well working diffuser gives you the same amount of downforce with minimal drag in comparison.

So you can have a car with more downforce and less drag. That is where big budgets come in handy. Red bull had a new exhaust solution for nearly every race, Lotus took ~8 months to create their first attempt.

Edited by beancounter, 27 January 2013 - 17:07.


#53 onewingedangel

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 17:28

But not all downforce is created equal. Putting on more wing creates a lot of drag but a well working diffuser gives you the same amount of downforce with minimal drag in comparison.

So you can have a car with more downforce and less drag. That is where big budgets come in handy. Red bull had a new exhaust solution for nearly every race, Lotus took ~8 months to create their first attempt.


I've not said anything different.

Red Bull have for the past few years had a car that inherently had more downforce and more drag when you removed wings from the equation. But this added downforce was less draggy than if you gained this downforce through higher downforce wings. This means in higher downforce configurations the Red Bull is more efficient than a car that needs more wing to make equivilent levels of downforce.

However, the inherent downforce from the concept cannot be trimmed in the same way as wing levels can, so on low downforce tracks the Red Bull may not be as efficient overall when running ultra-low downforce wings (to reduce drag as much as possible) as a naturally slippy car with more efficient low/medium downforce wings (with an acceptable drag level).

As such aerodynamic efficiency will vary by downforce level - Red Bull is likely more (perhaps most) efficient at higher downforce levels, yet less efficient at low.

#54 Anja

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 17:36

What time are they unveiling the car?

19:15 GMT / 20:15 CET

#55 VoonDerful

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 17:49

But not all downforce is created equal. Putting on more wing creates a lot of drag but a well working diffuser gives you the same amount of downforce with minimal drag in comparison.

So you can have a car with more downforce and less drag. That is where big budgets come in handy. Red bull had a new exhaust solution for nearly every race, Lotus took ~8 months to create their first attempt.


:up: well said mate.

Also rbr had double drs to further boost their pace on the straight and made it more raceable unlike lotus.

There's a reason why they said E20 as old man RB8.

#56 VoonDerful

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 17:50

I've not said anything different.

Red Bull have for the past few years had a car that inherently had more downforce and more drag when you removed wings from the equation. But this added downforce was less draggy than if you gained this downforce through higher downforce wings. This means in higher downforce configurations the Red Bull is more efficient than a car that needs more wing to make equivilent levels of downforce.

However, the inherent downforce from the concept cannot be trimmed in the same way as wing levels can, so on low downforce tracks the Red Bull may not be as efficient overall when running ultra-low downforce wings (to reduce drag as much as possible) as a naturally slippy car with more efficient low/medium downforce wings (with an acceptable drag level).

As such aerodynamic efficiency will vary by downforce level - Red Bull is likely more (perhaps most) efficient at higher downforce levels, yet less efficient at low.


Well, reason why the implemented merc style double DRS to counter the deficit. Lotus tried passive DRS but failed terribly.

#57 Cool Beans

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 18:59

I've not said anything different.

Red Bull have for the past few years had a car that inherently had more downforce and more drag when you removed wings from the equation.

That is an unsubstantiated claim. How on earth could you possibly know that?
As for your conclusions about the package working at lower downforce tracks, they do not simply angle the wings differently; they change the aero package.

Edited by beancounter, 27 January 2013 - 19:01.


#58 ixnay

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:22

19:15 GMT / 20:15 CET

Boo. 6:15am Sydney time Tuesday :(

#59 beqa16v

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 07:58

Just wanted to share concerning downforce:

from what i know teams now try to put as much downforce as possible on almost all tracks like silverstone, hockenheim and many others (exceptions are Spa with mid level downforce and monza with special wings). Since 2009 the downforce is limited and more you have the better you are. In other words, optimal downforce for normal tracks is more than what current cars are capable of. In 2008 and before they could play with wing angles to set optimal downforce but now the wing angle is mostly used for balancing the car, otherwise they are running at max angles.
It is not so easy to to increase downforce with limited wing size. For instance a simple one element wing creates max downforce at 12-13 degrees. After that it starts to go away again and drag increases terribly. This is where that smart engineering is needed.

So the bottom line is, lotus had a very well balanced car which made it easy to push, it had very little drag (high top speed not acceleration) and the chassis was kind on tires allowing higher race pace (remember the cars are not pushed 100% in races these days. Speed is limited by estimated tire conservation strategy). However Lotus had slightly less downforce than top teams and less traction in rear resulting it being slow out of the slow corners with less hp than Merc and Ferrari making it a difficult car to pull overtakes in. It was also weaker in qualifying due to less outright downforce and not being able to heat up tires fast (flip side of good tire consevation)

Edited by beqa16v, 28 January 2013 - 08:02.


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#60 MadYarpen

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:26

http://joesaward.wor...ity-at-enstone/

saward says Allison is to stay :up:

#61 Antonov

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:28

thank gods for that!

#62 danmills

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:01

Looks like it's going to be fast.

http://sphotos-g.ak....324608865_o.jpg


:rotfl: *facepalm*

#63 MadYarpen

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:10

So, tonight new livery will be revealed. Sadly it looks like there will be no revolution - I've set my hopes high after Burn announcement.
http://t.co/xH1GRkPR

#64 VoonDerful

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:21

its hard to find technically compose thread. Really enjoy reading those !! keep it up guys.

#65 GodHimself

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:23

So, tonight new livery will be revealed. Sadly it looks like there will be no revolution - I've set my hopes high after Burn announcement.
http://t.co/xH1GRkPR


I wonder if they are going to keep Lotus stickers on the car. Lotus the car maker has nothing to do with this team anymore, does it?

thank gods for that!


No problem. :wave:

Edited by GodHimself, 28 January 2013 - 11:24.


#66 alpiner

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:27

The car at today's presentation will probably be just a piece of plastic on wheels.

Most imortant thing is to see Honeywell label on it.

Posted Image

Edited by alpiner, 28 January 2013 - 11:43.


#67 VoonDerful

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:28

aside from having a good car, team strategy gonna play even critical role in 2013 with more pit stops expected.

Thats one hell of weak aspect from Lotus department, hope they improvise on that. They are too proud of their low tyre deg and tend to keep the car running on longer stint, allow others to undercut them by pitting earlier. And the pit stop time.....its really miserably slow LOL

#68 MadYarpen

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:33

their pit stop times got better over the season, probably after introducing new equipment.

#69 VoonDerful

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:58

their pit stop times got better over the season, probably after introducing new equipment.


not really. best was 3.2, worst was 6.0 sec in austin.

In abu dhabi, the pit stop time was 3.6, nearly cost kimi the lead to vettel.

#70 SRK

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:04

I wonder if they are going to keep Lotus stickers on the car. Lotus the car maker has nothing to do with this team anymore, does it?

They have license agreement. LF1T can will remove most of the Lotus sticker if they find a replacement. Black and gold livery offers an attractive identity and besides Coca-Cola sponsorship is not big enough to create painting. On the other hand subtitle "burn" and flames on the racecar look ambiguously :

not really. best was 3.2, worst was 6.0 sec in austin.

In abu dhabi, the pit stop time was 3.6, nearly cost kimi the lead to vettel.

This stop was error-free not speed priority.

Best:
https://twitter.com/...814883609251840

Lotus fastest live pitstop ever today!! 2.44 sec from car stop to car going...! Well done pit crew fantastic work!! oh and a 2.8 for Kimi!!


Edited by SRK, 28 January 2013 - 12:33.


#71 VoonDerful

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 13:02

They have license agreement. LF1T can will remove most of the Lotus sticker if they find a replacement. Black and gold livery offers an attractive identity and besides Coca-Cola sponsorship is not big enough to create painting. On the other hand subtitle "burn" and flames on the racecar look ambiguously :


This stop was error-free not speed priority.

Best:
https://twitter.com/...814883609251840


Paul Seab got it wrong, it showed 3.2 on the live timing for kimi. I read that tweet and find it on official chart, it showed 3.2!!

And what you mean by not speed priority?? When top team was doing 2.++ sec consistently, you gonna lose 5 tenth or more after the pit stop. Undercut strategy obviously wont works with slow pit stops.

#72 Brandz07

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 13:37

I'd like them to add something more to the side pods livery wise. A bit like Daniel Abt's GP3 and FR3.5 cars.

Posted Image

#73 SRK

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 13:49

Paul Seab got it wrong, it showed 3.2 on the live timing for kimi. I read that tweet and find it on official chart, it showed 3.2!!

And what you mean by not speed priority?? When top team was doing 2.++ sec consistently, you gonna lose 5 tenth or more after the pit stop. Undercut strategy obviously wont works with slow pit stops.

'Official chart' is only tv broadcaster estimation. Teams have their own precision calculations so no, in this pair not Paul Seaby is wrong.

What mean not speed priority? You should ask McLaren. Risk doesn't make any sense without pressure. Kimi lost 0,5 not 5 second, left boxes safely ahead Vettel and far far ahead of his rival Alonso so what is you problem? We are talking about the real effects or non-existent loss? Would you be happy if he lost the wheel after pit exit? Criticism for criticism.

#74 John10c

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 16:32

Looks real

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

Edited by John10c, 28 January 2013 - 16:39.


#75 VoonDerful

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 16:33

'Official chart' is only tv broadcaster estimation. Teams have their own precision calculations so no, in this pair not Paul Seaby is wrong.

What mean not speed priority? You should ask McLaren. Risk doesn't make any sense without pressure. Kimi lost 0,5 not 5 second, left boxes safely ahead Vettel and far far ahead of his rival Alonso so what is you problem? We are talking about the real effects or non-existent loss? Would you be happy if he lost the wheel after pit exit? Criticism for criticism.


Wow, some silly excuse there. Why mclaren use that official chart as their official pit stop time then?? Mistake is mistake, Paul Seab got it wrong.

Safety is not an excuse for slow pit stop. Thats the same challenge every team face. You nvr watch ferrari and rbr made these mistakes and their pit stop were consistenly top notch.



#76 VoonDerful

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 16:39

Looks real

Posted ImagePosted Image


where you found it??

#77 BenettonB192

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 16:41

Looks like it has the RB style tunnel and still a step nose.

#78 John10c

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 16:46

where you found it??

Video presentation, as far as I know.


#79 VoonDerful

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 16:46

Read an interview with eric stating the car would be more or less the same as last year car with some improvement on the past year projects. And they will focus on 2014 car and halt the car development earlier Sept.

Guess no hope to fight for the top 3.

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#80 Shiroo

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 16:50

where you found it??

RBR like exhaust.

Seems legit for me. Also burn at the front endplates
Nice touch with writing driver names on the top of the car

Edited by Shiroo, 28 January 2013 - 16:52.


#81 BiH

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 16:55

Looks like it has the RB style tunnel and still a step nose.


stepped nose is banned for this year.

edit: option
http://www.autosport....php/id/102883/

Edited by BiH, 28 January 2013 - 16:58.


#82 Shiroo

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 16:56

expect stepped nose is banned for this year.

it isn't banned. You HAVE A CHANCE to cover it. But you still can have stepped nose

#83 VoonDerful

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 16:58

nt sure why they go with step nose, it will cause unnecessary drag =P

#84 blackmme

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 16:59

expect stepped nose is banned for this year.


No stepped noses aren't banned at all. Teams can choose to put a non structural cover ver the step though to smooth the nose profile if they wish for purely aesthetic reasons.

Regards Mike

#85 ApexMouse

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 17:00

Shall we launch a 'radical and innovative' swearbox before the car is released? :)

If that is the Genuine article, surprised to see a step nose. Not sure about the red, especially that nameplate behind the airbox. Bit 2011 HRT-ish for me.
Also, in the first Romain pic, are we halfway to a Williams rear end? Seems very tightly waisted indeed.

Burn logos on FWEP's, no sign of new title sponsor.

Edited by ApexMouse, 28 January 2013 - 17:01.


#86 Anja

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 17:02

I'm surprised to see so little exposure for the Burn, expected it to be a bit larger.

#87 Francesc

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 17:03

Nice touch with writing driver names on the top of the car


This is provisional. Until they sign the contract with:
Posted Image

#88 Vesuvius

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 17:05

Maybe that's E20 with just new livery and not E21, new nose will be seen later...remember E20 wasn't the real E20 until at the first test :)

#89 Brandz07

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 17:05

I'd like them to add something more to the side pods livery wise. A bit like Daniel Abt's GP3 and FR3.5 cars.

Posted Image


Looks like I was right. :lol:

#90 Anja

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 17:06

Maybe that's E20 with just new livery and not E21, new nose will be seen later...remember E20 wasn't the real E20 until at the first test :)

The exhaust is definitely new.

#91 skywing

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 17:06

Is the team website down for everyone else?

#92 Jyllenberg

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 17:07

This is provisional. Until they sign the contract with:
Posted Image

Makes sense.


#93 Anja

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 17:08

This is provisional. Until they sign the contract with:
Posted Image

Would be great, but with each day it seems less likely to happen.

#94 VoonDerful

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 17:09

Mclaren style double sidepod spotted.

The airbox is smaller and much neatly designed unlike the bulky version of E20 's.

#95 ApexMouse

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 17:09

Is the team website down for everyone else?


Working for me skywing.

Also, look at the large wings from the monocoque out to the sidepods in the pic with eric. Interesting.

Edited by ApexMouse, 28 January 2013 - 17:11.


#96 gm914

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 17:10

Scarbs is on it

#97 skywing

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 17:10

Working for me skywing.

Hmm weird.

#98 Markn93

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 17:12

Scarbs is on it


I sent him the pics and he replied to me! Very excited :)

#99 Francesc

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 17:15

Also, look at the large wings from the monocoque out to the sidepods in the pic with eric. Interesting.


A copy from the sauber, to guide airflow over the sidepods and make the Coanda effect more effective.

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#100 VoonDerful

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 17:16

A copy from the sauber, to guide airflow over the sidepods and make the Coanda effect more effective.


sauber pioneered the concept. Mclaren copied, followed by redbull last year. Lotus copied the rbr version.