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Lotus E21


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#2751 SpaMaster

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 14:21

Yes, I should have included 2010 as well - that is 3 out of the last 4 years. They arguably started off with a good car in 2011 as well, but hit a dead end with the exhaust design.

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#2752 F.M.

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 21:01

Allison believes Lotus has genuine pace and will continue to challenge at the front

So it looks like, contradictory to earlier comments from Lotus, the E21 has indeed inherited the wet track "qualities" of last years car. The majority of the races will be dry, but this can significantly harm their title campaign in a season that very likely will be decided by only few points. Is there any other team on the grid that's so weather-dependant?

Wasn't it previously stated by a Lotus' guy (I think Grosjean, but could easily have been an other person of the team) that they were so bad in the rain last year because their RW didn't work in wet conditions and that they solved it now?
I also remember Grosjean (and Kimi?) saying during testing that the car was much better in the rain.

That got my hopes up quite a bit, but then, a few drops of rain and it seems even worse than last year.

#2753 Skinnyguy

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 23:33

Wasn't it previously stated by a Lotus' guy (I think Grosjean, but could easily have been an other person of the team) that they were so bad in the rain last year because their RW didn't work in wet conditions and that they solved it now?
I also remember Grosjean (and Kimi?) saying during testing that the car was much better in the rain.

That got my hopes up quite a bit, but then, a few drops of rain and it seems even worse than last year.


Räikkönen said himself after Friday that he was not worried cos they were OK in all conditions.

It was shocking to see them not performing after that.

#2754 Shiroo

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 04:20

it wasnt about rain. The car was going worse from Friday onwards. Raikkonen said (and it was seen on times also) that he is fine in rain. And then kaboom, shitty saturday and even more shitty sunday where car lost all the grip, even in dry

#2755 Kelateboy

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 04:31

http://www.foxsports...ail/item955665/

Lotus eye strong showing in China, Bahrain
Lotus are confident they will continue to challenge at the front of the grid in the next two races in China and Bahrain.

"So he only really lost two or three second to [race winner Sebastian] Vettel over the dry portion of race. The pace of car in the dry was good in Sepang and Australia, the tyre temperatures and wear was strong in both races, and I think we will go on to have strong races in China and Bahrain."



#2756 DrF

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 12:54

it wasnt about rain. The car was going worse from Friday onwards. Raikkonen said (and it was seen on times also) that he is fine in rain. And then kaboom, shitty saturday and even more shitty sunday where car lost all the grip, even in dry

Their trick suspension failed again, that's all.

#2757 Radion

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 13:04

What trick suspension are you talking about?

Edited by Radion, 04 April 2013 - 13:05.


#2758 Jovanotti

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 13:11

What trick suspension are you talking about?

http://www.formula1....3/894/1050.html
Plus we can only speculate about Lotus having an anti-dive brake-system as far as I know.

Their trick suspension failed again, that's all.

Is there any background to your assumption?

Edited by Jovanotti, 04 April 2013 - 13:13.


#2759 DrF

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 17:34

It's a hunch, based on the mysterious and sudden drop in performance of RoGro's car on Oz and Kimi's last time out. Plus some comments made by both drivers, the team reporting suspension failure as the reason for RoGro's car.

They definitely had something early last year and I think it's back.

Did you see how low Kimi's car was in the closing stages of Oz?

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#2760 SpaMaster

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 18:27

But there was no suspension failure reported on Kimi's car in Malaysia. Neither drivers mentioned anything about suspension being a reason for car feeling different. What they proposed before testing last year (they never had it in the car) was explicitly banned by FIA. There is no reason for them to bring it back now, something that was clearly banned by FIA. That would earn them disqualifications from both the first races. Kimi's victory would be taken away for sure if they did such a deliberate cheating. I don't believe for a moment they would pull a stunt like that. Also, the sparks from the bottom of the car has appeared in various other cars also in the recent past (Red Bull for example and also Lotus few times in the past).

Edited by SpaMaster, 04 April 2013 - 18:42.


#2761 Shiroo

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 19:18

but not really like in Aust as example. They were fine mostly in early stage of race. Just few sparks. And at the late stage of the race, Lotuses were sparking as hell

#2762 Radion

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 19:41

But there was no suspension failure reported on Kimi's car in Malaysia. Neither drivers mentioned anything about suspension being a reason for car feeling different. What they proposed before testing last year (they never had it in the car) was explicitly banned by FIA. There is no reason for them to bring it back now, something that was clearly banned by FIA. That would earn them disqualifications from both the first races. Kimi's victory would be taken away for sure if they did such a deliberate cheating. I don't believe for a moment they would pull a stunt like that. Also, the sparks from the bottom of the car has appeared in various other cars also in the recent past (Red Bull for example and also Lotus few times in the past).

But didn't Lotus confirm the cause of the sudden drop of performance for Grosjean's car was due to a "broken" suspension?

Edited by Radion, 04 April 2013 - 19:42.


#2763 V3TT3L

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 04:39

Posted Image
Old vs New exhaust scheme.

Posted Image
The forbiden front floor.

Edited by V3TT3L, 05 April 2013 - 04:46.


#2764 DrF

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 08:37

But didn't Lotus confirm the cause of the sudden drop of performance for Grosjean's car was due to a "broken" suspension?

Yes, and after Sepang, Kimi said they'd found out why his car went from hero on Friday to zero later that weekend. I don't think the Lotus suspension is illegal, but o think they have found a way to maintain ride height on empty tanks. No proof, just a hunch.

#2765 JeePee

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 10:21

New rear jack for Lotus. Should improve pitstops. They say they can keep constant between 2,5 and 2,7 seconds now :)

#2766 Rikhart

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 10:29

Posted Image
The forbiden front floor.


There is nothing "forbidden" about that, and its only a bargeboard, thats not the floor.


#2767 SpaMaster

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 15:59

But didn't Lotus confirm the cause of the sudden drop of performance for Grosjean's car was due to a "broken" suspension?

Broken suspension did happen at some point of the race. But the poster I replied to said that that was the reason because it happened with both drivers. When the same problem happened to both drivers, but the cause was different, one can't say suspension was the definite problem.

#2768 V3TT3L

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 16:34

There is nothing "forbidden" about that, and its only a bargeboard, thats not the floor.

The arrow comes from AMuS.
The floor is in the right side of the photo.

#2769 quidam

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 05:02

The floor is in the right side of the photo.


It's not the floor but the splitter

On this picture, Amus is talking about the new bargeboard of Lotus with six elements. Nothing to do with a forbiden floor.

Edited by quidam, 06 April 2013 - 05:11.


#2770 Jovanotti

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:43

Thank God it looks like the Chinese GP is going to be completely dry and surprisingly warm (around 25° C on Sunday) at this stage. It's about time to see the "real" pecking order, and i'm confident Lotus will be able to challenge for the podium spots next weekend. And then there is Bahrain :) - time to let it rip!

Edited by Jovanotti, 08 April 2013 - 07:48.


#2771 F.M.

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 09:43

Allison:

"One of the benefits gained from the new exhaust package is an increase in rear downforce through corners where the ratio of exhaust speed to car speed is high, which tend to be the lower speed corners. This is a good step forward which we hope will aid us in protecting the tyres at this kind of circuit."

"I have to be completely candid and say that wet weather is not our forte. We struggle to get the intermediate tyres warm enough to grip the road, and our current rear wing configuration - whilst aerodynamically stable in wet conditions - does not generate the sort of downforce levels required for a wet track. Unfortunately we will be fighting an uphill battle with this until we bring a new, higher downforce rear wing to the track."

Edited by F.M., 08 April 2013 - 09:44.


#2772 Jovanotti

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:01

Also read this. I find it downright unbelievable that a top team like Lotus still didn't manage to design a RW that works on a wet track.

And why does a RW that generates too little downforce in the wet work perfectly well in dry conditions - what's the big difference? I thought either a RW produces much downforce or little, varying with design and track specification, but not that it just stops delivering when the track is wet. Can anyone shed a bit of light on this?

#2773 Rikhart

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:34

I love it how this team is totally under the radar, despite a dominant win in australia not long ago. I think they will start caring when Lotus wins more races, which they will, especially in the early season. They have a massive tyre advantage, and thats part of the reason why they struggle in the wet, it´s because their package is supremely kind to the rubber!

#2774 F.M.

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 18:38

Also read this. I find it downright unbelievable that a top team like Lotus still didn't manage to design a RW that works on a wet track.

And why does a RW that generates too little downforce in the wet work perfectly well in dry conditions - what's the big difference? I thought either a RW produces much downforce or little, varying with design and track specification, but not that it just stops delivering when the track is wet. Can anyone shed a bit of light on this?

This year's wing does work in the wet, compared to last year's which didn't ("whilst aerodynamically stable"), they simply need more downforce in the wet to get the tyres to work, whilst not in the dry.
Putting on higher DF wing isn't so much a problem, but putting on one that doesn't give too much additional drag so that their dry-pace isn't ruined is a bit more difficult.

#2775 swiniodzik

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 19:07

If one takes these words from Allison as a firm admission that the peak downforce levels of the E21 aren't the best out there, I wonder whether Lotus has hit the downforce jackpot for the current Pirelli compounds in the dry. Like, having too much downforce gives you great one lap pace but overloads the tyres over a stint, too little downforce and you have neither one lap nor long run performance, and somewhere between these extremes there exists a certain specific amount of downforce that just makes you competitive enough over one lap to hang in there in qualifying and then challenge for top honours on race day with the best long run pace/tyre management ratio.

#2776 beqa16v

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:02

This year's wing does work in the wet, compared to last year's which didn't ("whilst aerodynamically stable"), they simply need more downforce in the wet to get the tyres to work, whilst not in the dry.
Putting on higher DF wing isn't so much a problem, but putting on one that doesn't give too much additional drag so that their dry-pace isn't ruined is a bit more difficult.

Actually it is not so easy even if you disregard drag. A single wing has maximum efficiency at around 13 degrees. After that it starts to lose downforce and drag increases dramatically. Multi component wings are more effective but again they have their limits in terms of angles you can give them. That is why a lot of research and development is needed.

#2777 Man of the race

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:26

This is a bit stupid question, but how the teams test their craft (rear wing amongst other downforce generating parts) for wet weather conditions nowadays?

One obvious answer would be computer modelling, but how about other methods like the wind tunnel? Or it does not matter, the air flows always in the same way, only with different speed and thus downforce generated? And what kind of data does Pirelli give about the wet tyres for the team, because they would need something for their calculations?

Edit: language corrections.

Edited by Man of the race, 09 April 2013 - 06:29.


#2778 Jovanotti

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:44

If one takes these words from Allison as a firm admission that the peak downforce levels of the E21 aren't the best out there, I wonder whether Lotus has hit the downforce jackpot for the current Pirelli compounds in the dry. Like, having too much downforce gives you great one lap pace but overloads the tyres over a stint, too little downforce and you have neither one lap nor long run performance, and somewhere between these extremes there exists a certain specific amount of downforce that just makes you competitive enough over one lap to hang in there in qualifying and then challenge for top honours on race day with the best long run pace/tyre management ratio.

Yeah, one could indeed arrive at that conclusion. However, the Lotus has a reputation to be a very good aero car, so I don't believe it hasn't downforce levels that are comparable to other top teams. Allison also said that it is tricky to get the grip from the inner side of the tyre, and that this years Pirelli's greatly reward a well-balanced car - so Lotus performing well could well be down to one of those factors.

Or it does not matter, the air flows always in the same way, only with different speed and thus downforce generated?

I could be wrong, but I guess slower and less stable airflow? Maybe the E21 then is just a very sensitive car - I mean, it also seems to lose a good chunk of pace when stuck behind others.

Edited by Jovanotti, 09 April 2013 - 06:52.


#2779 DrF

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:52

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106492

All very well going on about "normal" conditions Eric, but when are they ever "normal"?

I seem to recall this same line being trotted out race after race last year and it being rather a long time before normal conditions arose.

If EB is still TP at Lotus next year and there's a seat going at Red Bull, then Kimi's decision should be fairly easy to make.

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#2780 Shiroo

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:23

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106492

All very well going on about "normal" conditions Eric, but when are they ever "normal"?

I seem to recall this same line being trotted out race after race last year and it being rather a long time before normal conditions arose.

If EB is still TP at Lotus next year and there's a seat going at Red Bull, then Kimi's decision should be fairly easy to make.


Ya staying at Lotus will be decent path

#2781 yonzzu

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 15:25

F1-Areena, a Finnish motorsport community site, got a chance to ask Kimi some questions about his career, future and life at Lotus.

You may check the interview here:

F1-Areena interviews Kimi Räikkönen

#2782 SpaMaster

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 15:40

Thanks, that was a nice interview.

#2783 Amin

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 16:11

Thanks, that was a nice interview.


+1

I thought his comparison between the Lotus in Australia and the cars from his McLaren days was quite interesting and encouraging.

#2784 Hayden1

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 16:14

THX @yonzzu , good stuff :)

#2785 Gorma

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 17:33

F1-Areena, a Finnish motorsport community site, got a chance to ask Kimi some questions about his career, future and life at Lotus.

You may check the interview here:

F1-Areena interviews Kimi Räikkönen

Great stuff!

#2786 santababy

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 01:46

+1

I thought his comparison between the Lotus in Australia and the cars from his McLaren days was quite interesting and encouraging.



+2! :up:

#2787 sneaker91

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:27

Thanks Yonzzu. Great interview. Kimi cool as can be. Can't wait for China. The Iceman cometh!!!!!

Edited by sneaker91, 10 April 2013 - 05:29.


#2788 PMM3

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:42

Ya staying at Lotus will be decent path

Ya, and going to RB will be more than just decent...

#2789 Shiroo

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 11:32

Ya, and going to RB will be more than just decent...

To replace wbber as nr2 or triple world champ would be nr2? I just cant see rbr to change their attitude with clear 1 and 2 driver

#2790 Vesuvius

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 11:54

To replace wbber as nr2 or triple world champ would be nr2? I just cant see rbr to change their attitude with clear 1 and 2 driver


Marko just told sport bild that Kimi is one of their choices for next year and no more team orders...

#2791 Skinnyguy

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 22:17

To replace wbber as nr2 or triple world champ would be nr2? I just cant see rbr to change their attitude with clear 1 and 2 driver


What the hell you talking about?

#2792 intelligentsia

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:23

Kimi arriving China:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image


They do like Kimi in China.

#2793 Kelateboy

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:38

They do like Kimi in China.

The fans adore him every where not just in China, for whatever reasons.

#2794 nomi

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:38

He doesn't look as annoyed as lat year, he had people following him on the elevators last year and he clearly look annoyed

#2795 Shiroo

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:38

What the hell you talking about?

About red bull. Do you really thonk that rbr with kimi and seb wouldnt still have nr1 and 2? And i like him in lotus, ots my fav team and it deserves to have top driver

#2796 sneaker91

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:55

Low temps forecast for china according to official F1 site. Hopefully it allows Kimi to do another melb masterpiece.

#2797 Radion

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:02

About red bull. Do you really thonk that rbr with kimi and seb wouldnt still have nr1 and 2? And i like him in lotus, ots my fav team and it deserves to have top driver

Kimi won't join RBR if he isn't 100% sure that there'll be no nr. 1/nr. 2 driver.
He isn't dumb.

But we should stop talking about the possibility of Kimi joining RBR in this thread. I think there is one already where we can discuss this topic.

Edited by Radion, 11 April 2013 - 07:08.


#2798 Jovanotti

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:28

Low temps forecast for china according to official F1 site. Hopefully it allows Kimi to do another melb masterpiece.

Lotus will be fine regardless of temps if it is dry imo. In the cold, they will handle graining better, if it's hot they'll excel on conventional tyre wear (fingers crossed!).

Edited by Jovanotti, 11 April 2013 - 07:29.


#2799 icewest07

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 08:17

From the latest article by autosport, you can see that Kimi's tone seems to have changed a bit regarding his view on "team atmosphere" :

"Like I've always said all the teams have been different, and I have had a pretty good time in all the teams," he said.
"I wouldn't say that this is much better than other places, because I never had any problems [elsewhere] or anything like that. It is just a different place."

One can sense a bit more neutrality compared to his previous statements :

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/100891 (July 2012)
"I've felt good here since the beginning, [...] The people are fine, very relaxed. They want to race and don't want to do too much politics."

https://twitter.com/...712364170551297 (March 2013)
"#Kimi: "The atmosphere in the team is good; it's pretty relaxed and it allows me to do my own thing"

Maybe this is a hint that he is indeed leaving all options open around for next year, so he is chosing his words more carefully from now on... Maybe?!

Edited by icewest07, 11 April 2013 - 09:44.


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#2800 Cool Beans

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 09:02

Well contract negotiations for next year are coming up, so even if he really, really, really wants to stay at Lotus it's much better to go in with the impression you could very easily go somewhere else. You can get much better terms and compensation :)