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Lotus E21


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#2851 beqa16v

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 13:47

Grosjean cant be so much slower than Kimi, he is not a slow driver. Maybe he is exaggerating the issue but there are some problems with the car or his setup.

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#2852 2ms

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 13:50

No point in speculating on what's going on with Grosjean. Time will tell.

#2853 SpamJet

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 13:54

new vortex generators, instead of being placed on top of the sidepod, they are attached to the "mirror support" winglet

Posted Image
(pics from f1technical)


Is that brown stain part of the vortex generator?


#2854 SpaMaster

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 14:01

Kimi said:
- laptimes are ok and they are reasonable happy.
- they are happy with soft tyres but less happy with harder compounds.

And the other teams are saying the opposite. It looks like soft tyres are working exceptionally well with Ferrari and Lotus for some reason.



#2855 Music Lover

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 15:01

I think the only problems grosjean has, are that he´s not battling a 2 year rusty Raikkonen anymore, he´s dealing with a fully fit and up to speed one...

Only part of the reason imho.
You also have a combination of other aspects, the car suiting Kimi better and Gro feeling the pressure not crashing.

Gro is under enormous pressure and it's start showing.

#2856 intelligentsia

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 15:08

Yeah, he did. But Grosjean said that with the old exhaust it was even worse. They might build a new car around the spare chassis for tomorrow. (Although I don't expect them to really do that)


Grosjean looked quite good on meduim tyres at certian times in FP, if there is a problem it cant be that big.


#2857 Jovanotti

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 15:10

Are both drivers going to have the new front wing Romain was testing?

Anybody else got the impression that Lotus, again, is extremely under everyones radar this weekend? All experts and so-called give them one line in their analysis, and everybody seems already talking about Merc vs. Ferrari for Sunday. Not that I bother (because I'm sure Kimi will be quick), but it can be annoying when you can hardly find any piece of info or analysis about them.

Edited by Jovanotti, 12 April 2013 - 15:20.


#2858 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 15:14

I think the only problems grosjean has, are that he´s not battling a 2 year rusty Raikkonen anymore, he´s dealing with a fully fit and up to speed one...

I guess you missed the last race.

#2859 ApexMouse

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 15:17

Liuzzi in 2010 and Di Resta last year both had issues where a chassis was giving them lower top speed than their teammate. If Grosjean is that far off then it's clearly a similar chassis-related problem. He isnt what, 1.5 secs off raikkonen.

I mean in terms of the possibility of a chassis issue, bot that his speed trap figures are down.

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#2860 Skinnyguy

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 15:17

Team needs to get its act together. It´s standard and natural thing to have two fully working cars on every race. They can´t seem to do that. Whatever it is, it´s hindering very good base form.

Yes, it´s normal Räikkönen beats Romain both in quali and race by now, it´s become the most normal outcome since mid 2012, but this gap is not natural. Romain is faster than this, and I do believe him.

#2861 Watkins74

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 15:25

Team needs to get its act together. It´s standard and natural thing to have two fully working cars on every race. They can´t seem to do that. Whatever it is, it´s hindering very good base form.

Yes, it´s normal Räikkönen beats Romain both in quali and race by now, it´s become the most normal outcome since mid 2012, but this gap is not natural. Romain is faster than this, and I do believe him.

:up:

#2862 Hayden1

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 15:30

Real Kimi Raikkonen , when he is not in front of camera.
http://v.youku.com/v...gwNzE4OTQw.html :clap:

Edited by Hayden1, 12 April 2013 - 15:42.


#2863 Ragingjamaican

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 15:33

Lotus do seemto have more problems regarding the car compared the rest of the top teams.

They rarely hook up a race weekend together, and if they do, there next race is back to average.

#2864 beqa16v

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 15:48

Are both drivers going to have the new front wing Romain was testing?

Anybody else got the impression that Lotus, again, is extremely under everyones radar this weekend? All experts and so-called give them one line in their analysis, and everybody seems already talking about Merc vs. Ferrari for Sunday. Not that I bother (because I'm sure Kimi will be quick), but it can be annoying when you can hardly find any piece of info or analysis about them.

Agree that Lotus is disregarded but I'm OK with that. Better be this way. I wish rivals also disregarded them the same way.

#2865 race addicted

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 15:53

I guess you missed the last race.


Where Räikkönen bounced his car up? Yeah, that's a real performance enhancer.

#2866 race addicted

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 15:56

Real Kimi Raikkonen , when he is not in front of camera.
http://v.youku.com/v...gwNzE4OTQw.html :clap:


:up:

#2867 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 15:57

Where Räikkönen bounced his car up? Yeah, that's a real performance enhancer.

So it wasn't a magical fairy who did it, right? It was Kimi?

Grosjean did a better job on the day. Its sad if you cant admit it.

Edited by Seanspeed, 12 April 2013 - 15:58.


#2868 Cool Beans

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 16:02

So it wasn't a magical fairy who did it, right? It was Kimi?

Grosjean did a better job on the day. Its sad if you cant admit it.

That's not what was being argued.

#2869 Shiroo

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 16:46

Real Kimi Raikkonen , when he is not in front of camera.
http://v.youku.com/v...gwNzE4OTQw.html :clap:

he seems to have quite good relationship with both Eric and Gerard, but Gerard especially

though it is movie from 2012

Edited by Shiroo, 12 April 2013 - 16:47.


#2870 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 17:04

That's not what was being argued.

The point is that if Kimi was so dusted off and back on top of things, how did Grosjean beat him last race?

Dont worry about it, though. Its better saved for the VS thread, where I wont go anyways because it leads to crap like this.

#2871 race addicted

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 17:12

Malaysia provided some redemption for Grosjean, but when Räikkönen had wiggled free of whoever was holding him up, he was quicker. Räikkönen was just always in the wrong spot, in addition to having aerodynamic bits missing on his car.

Don't snear away with such one-liners, Seanspeed, if you don't want to play along. :)

#2872 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 17:14

Malaysia provided some redemption for Grosjean, but when Räikkönen had wiggled free of whoever was holding him up, he was quicker. Räikkönen was just always in the wrong spot, in addition to having aerodynamic bits missing on his car.

Don't snear away with such one-liners, Seanspeed, if you don't want to play along. :)

It was Kimi's fault for being in the position he was and Grosjean did a better job overtaking cars than Kimi did.

Again, its sad if you cant just admit he did a better job on the day. Really. Especially not having the new upgrades.

Edited by Seanspeed, 12 April 2013 - 17:16.


#2873 SpaMaster

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 17:31

The point is that if Kimi was so dusted off and back on top of things, how did Grosjean beat him last race?

This is where one should stop arguing if something was not clear earlier, instead of continue to argue for the sake of it. race addicted was clearly talking about pace and you are referring to a mistake Kimi made as something of a norm in pace.

Dont worry about it, though. Its better saved for the VS thread, where I wont go anyways because it leads to crap like this.

And YOU are saying this! No wonder the VS discussions end up like that.

#2874 Cool Beans

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 17:42

The point is that if Kimi was so dusted off and back on top of things, how did Grosjean beat him last race?

Dont worry about it, though. Its better saved for the VS thread, where I wont go anyways because it leads to crap like this.

How did Massa beat Alonso last race? Rust?

Edited by Cool Beans, 12 April 2013 - 17:49.


#2875 beute

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 17:45

It was Kimi's fault for being in the position he was and Grosjean did a better job overtaking cars than Kimi did.

Again, its sad if you cant just admit he did a better job on the day. Really. Especially not having the new upgrades.


you're still missing the point if I interpret the conversation starter correctly(which was made by rikhard I think).

No one argues about who beat who, or whose fault caused what and who did the better job that weekend.
The talk is about pace and why Grosjean seems to be lacking in that front.

of course it was Kimi own fault for what happened in malaysia, he caused the penalty, he went wide twice, he lost part of his wing twice and couldnt get past hulkenberg as fast as grosjean.
which all is completely irrelevant if the topic of discussion is just pure unhindered race pace.

the point that started the conversation was that grosjean looked slow comparedto Kimi not because of car problems but because the new unrusty kimi is supposedly just that much faster and makes it look like grosjean has a car problem.
and you replied with: "I guess you missed the last race."
which, as I pointed out, was an irrelevant argument that completely missed the point.

That said, I dont agree at all with rikharts comment.
Grosjean may have a setup problem, he may struggle somewhat more against a slightly faster kimi than before, he might actually really have a car issue, maybe a bit of everything... I dont know.
One is for sure:
The gap surely isnt caused by raikkonen suddenly being that much faster all on his own...

Edited by beute, 12 April 2013 - 17:48.


#2876 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 17:48

This is where one should stop arguing if something was not clear earlier, instead of continue to argue for the sake of it. race addicted was clearly talking about pace and you are referring to a mistake Kimi made as something of a norm in pace.

And YOU are saying this! No wonder the VS discussions end up like that.

I responded to something Rikhart said. Race addicted chimed in afterwards. If he was talking about something else, then thats not my problem.

And what do you mean 'no wonder the VS discussions end up like that'? I dont go in there. Blame all the crap posting in there, not me.

You could also ask how Massa beat Alonso last race. Alonso rusty too?

What does Alonso have anything to do with anything, holy crap.

I'm out. I forget this is a Kimi fan club in here.

#2877 Cool Beans

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 17:53

What does Alonso have anything to do with anything, holy crap.

I'm out. I forget this is a Kimi fan club in here.

Let me spell this out for you:

Two drivers break front wings and subsequently lose to their team mates. One case proves rustiness to you, the other does not. Logic failure or biased opinion.

#2878 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 17:57

Let me spell this out for you:

Two drivers break front wings and subsequently lose to their team mates. One case proves rustiness to you, the other does not. Logic failure or biased opinion.

I never said anybody was rusty. Holy crap.

#2879 2ms

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 18:05

Malaysia provided some redemption for Grosjean, but when Räikkönen had wiggled free of whoever was holding him up, he was quicker. Räikkönen was just always in the wrong spot, in addition to having aerodynamic bits missing on his car.

Don't snear away with such one-liners, Seanspeed, if you don't want to play along. :)


The main reason Raikkonen was held up so much was the bizarre grid penalty.

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#2880 SpaMaster

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 18:07

I responded to something Rikhart said. Race addicted chimed in afterwards. If he was talking about something else, then thats not my problem.

Is that purposefully being obtuse, or, you have really convinced yourself that none of this discussion has happened?

#2881 hello86

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 18:21

I think the only problems grosjean has, are that he´s not battling a 2 year rusty Raikkonen anymore, he´s dealing with a fully fit and up to speed one...


That´s why Grosjean beat him last race. Maybe we better wait until the race is done until we make a judgement. :rolleyes:

#2882 beute

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 18:43

That´s why Grosjean beat him last race. Maybe we better wait until the race is done until we make a judgement. :rolleyes:


strawman, yet again, same fallacy seanspead used.


he never stated kimi couldnt be beaten.
The argument stated by rikhart talks about pace, not race results, which is determined by stuff other than just pace.

so he could be 100% right, kimi is 3 sec faster than grosjean and still could have finished behind him in malaysia simply because he was unable to pass driver X in time.


again, not saying he is right, I dont think so.
I think the gap in practice is not representative of pace.
maybe grosjean has a problem, maybe his setup is crap, maybe his car is infact not right.... dont know.

Edited by beute, 12 April 2013 - 18:44.


#2883 Rikhart

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 18:51

That´s why Grosjean beat him last race. Maybe we better wait until the race is done until we make a judgement. :rolleyes:


Because he didnt get a penalty after qualy (he had qualified 7th to grosjeans 11th), or have a horrible car all race with broken parts (in fact grosjean only passed him because he went off with snap oversteer). Look at it like this: when grosjean has a "bad car day", raikkonen wins, and grosjean is 10th. When its the other way around, raikkonen finishes the race right on his tail...

Also I cant avoid noticing that this "mistery problem" only appears when grosjean is getting beaten, after malaysia when he finished ahead of raikkonen, he said it was all good, no more problem, etc. He also had more than twice the testing mileage of raikkonen, and kept saying the car was great.

#2884 Head

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 19:01

kimi got all the new parts on friday on malaysia and yet he was beaten by the frenchman ,

#2885 Cool Beans

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 19:07

Thanks for the input.

#2886 Vesuvius

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 19:16

kimi got all the new parts on friday on malaysia and yet he was beaten by the frenchman ,


yes he got beaten but Kimi would have been in front without the grid penalty...but they will continue beating each others nothing wrong in that.

#2887 Gag Bueno

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 19:28

Everybody knows Kimi got beaten in Sepang because he was 'brake-tested', got his FW broken and nobody saw it... :p But I must give Seanspeed right, the performance of the drivers should be discussed in the Kimi VS Romain thread, by all posters...
And more or less back on topic, I would like to know if Lotus will be able to provide two identical cars with the newest updates for both drivers for qual + race this weekend.

#2888 Jovanotti

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 19:53

Anybody else got the impression that Lotus, again, is extremely under everyones radar this weekend?

Yes Jovanotti, I have!

China Friday form guide: three teams in the hunt

Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull all have good reason to be confident after Friday practice for the Chinese GP, reckons Mark Hughes.



#2889 artista

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 20:25

I've noticed it too. For example, Martínez de la Rosa also named everybody except Lotus.

That's not necessarily bad news for Lotus. When the others forget about you, it's easier to play your own cards undisturbed.

#2890 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 20:36

Everybody knows Kimi got beaten in Sepang because he was 'brake-tested', got his FW broken and nobody saw it... :p But I must give Seanspeed right, the performance of the drivers should be discussed in the Kimi VS Romain thread, by all posters...
And more or less back on topic, I would like to know if Lotus will be able to provide two identical cars with the newest updates for both drivers for qual + race this weekend.


Looking at the replay of the start you can see Raikkonen run up on Hulkenburg at the apex of turn 2, the same place that Alonso hit Vettel. Also they do an on board of the start from Hulkenburg's car and you can see his car react to being touched by the Lotus.

#2891 michaelmyers

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 20:37

The main reason Raikkonen was held up so much was the bizarre grid penalty.

It sure was bizarre. I read an interview with Kimi commenting that issue. He said that the stewarts could have given him either a warning or a 3 place grid penalty and the reason why they chose to give him that penalty was "with three warnings you get a bigger penalty and it's not nice to get a warning so early on in the season." Kimi didn't see any logic in that and neither do I.

#2892 Gag Bueno

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 22:23

Looking at the replay of the start you can see Raikkonen run up on Hulkenburg at the apex of turn 2, the same place that Alonso hit Vettel. Also they do an on board of the start from Hulkenburg's car and you can see his car react to being touched by the Lotus.


You are, for instance, completely right! I was only having a little fun with the reactions of some other fanbase to broken FW's, I promise not to repeat it... :p

And yes, no journo, pundit or 'expert' seems to expect great things from Lotus this weekend, but it was more or less the same in Australia, so let's hope for the best!


#2893 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 01:03

You are, for instance, completely right! I was only having a little fun with the reactions of some other fanbase to broken FW's, I promise not to repeat it... :p

And yes, no journo, pundit or 'expert' seems to expect great things from Lotus this weekend, but it was more or less the same in Australia, so let's hope for the best!


That's OK, it's good to poke fun at that certain FW sensitive fan base once in a while! Repeat as much as you like. :up:

#2894 swerved

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:08

Rear suspension change for Kimi's Lotus.

#2895 intelligentsia

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:14

It sounds like they made a big suspension change on Kimi's car, I hope it is the right decision.

According to the BBC Grosjean was 0.1 sec. slower in FP2 compared to FP1. According to Lotus the setup wasn't as bad as Grosjean made it out to be.

#2896 swerved

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:32

It sounds like they made a big suspension change on Kimi's car, I hope it is the right decision.

According to the BBC Grosjean was 0.1 sec. slower in FP2 compared to FP1. According to Lotus the setup wasn't as bad as Grosjean made it out to be.


Thats interesting, i hadn't heard that, hopefully a better weekend than at the last race. :up:


#2897 SpaMaster

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:57

Did anyone see the long line of Finnish flags in the stands? I think it extended for 15 seats or so. Insane!

#2898 Opaque

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 04:06

A second slower than yesterday. Same story as in Malaysia?

#2899 Vesuvius

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 04:07

Hopefully Lotus was running heavier with those softs, either we will be in trouble to be in q3...also medium tyre runs don't look very promesing at all.

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#2900 intelligentsia

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 04:12

Kimi is about 1.2 seconds slower then yesterday, and it seemed like Grosjean was struggling a bit. I hope they aren't going backwards again. Perhaps they will be better in the hotter temperatures later in the day.