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Lotus E21


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#3351 Kingshark

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 18:17

Alonso believes Red Bull did not fully exploit their potential last week: “In China, on race pace, Sebastian was quickest in all the stints, but had chosen a strange strategy for qualifying.”

Is he blaming Vettel, or blaming the RBR strategic team?

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#3352 Watkins74

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 18:23

And that is immediately followed by 'Red Bull is probably the best car, they underperformed in China, blah blah'. I can't help but think he is mainly thinking of putting down Vettel.

Then you should read it again.

#3353 SpaMaster

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 18:36

Replied in a more relevant thread http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=6233206

Then you should read it again.

Nah, don't feel like it!

Edited by SpaMaster, 18 April 2013 - 18:41.


#3354 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 19:09

And that is immediately followed by 'Red Bull is probably the best car, they underperformed in China, blah blah'. I can't help but think he is mainly thinking of putting down Vettel.



And that he isn't driving the fastest car, nor the second fastest car!

#3355 Wander

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 19:53

Alonso: Raikkonen “driving maybe better than anyone”

http://www.f1fanatic...kkonen-driving/?


Alonso: "but there are many other drivers with super cars who have not won a race in the last 50 or 60 races."

Oh come on! That's a low blow on your team mate! :lol:

#3356 KimiF1

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 19:58

Waited 2 hours for Kimi to come out during thursday pitlane :(
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#3357 Sakae

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 20:05

Then you should read it again.

Alonso is these days being quoted probably more while commenting on Vettel and RBR, than on his own side of the fence. I have to agree with SpaMaster, that he has this year at least twice critiqued either RBR team and/or Vettel from underperforming based on resources in disposal. (Vettel in 2010, and now RBR in China). Make whatever you want of this, but one wonders where he finds all that time for his expert, and insider-like comments. (Maybe dinners with Webber do aid somewhat)?

#3358 nada12

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 20:13

Alonso: "but there are many other drivers with super cars who have not won a race in the last 50 or 60 races."

Oh come on! That's a low blow on your team mate! :lol:

Between this and his comments last week it seems like he's a bit annoyed at all the babble about him being out qualified x times in a row  ;)

#3359 swiniodzik

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 20:15

Don't think so. In Australia, Vettel was eating his tyres quicker than both Lotus and Ferrari. But where Lotus beat Ferrari and Red Bull is by doing one stop less on the harder tyres. Same with Hamilton in China. Lotus did not beat Hamilton because the latter destroyed his tyres faster in the starting first stint. Lotus was better than Hamilton in the hard tyres. Starting tyres was not the difference maker for Lotus.

Pirelli is still predicting 3 stops with mediums and hards in Bahrain. That can only be good news for Lotus.


Starting on super-softs in Australia was a double whammy for Vettel as he couldn't build as big a lead as softs would have allowed him to do in the first stint, and a quicker first pitstop meant his fresh medium tyre advantage over Sutil when he reached him wasn't big enough to allow for an overtake. In China Raikkonen couldn't overtake Hamilton on track and drive away from him after making the undercut, that shows things were quite marginal as it was.

We don't know for certain whether harder tyres would have been the game changer, but they well could have been by perhaps allowing Vettel to exploit his strategy in eventually clean air in the second stint or presenting Hamilton with a chance to execute the decisive undercut by himself as he could have worried about the length of his last stint less with a prolonged first stint.

It can go either way and depends on too many circumstances to predict anything with certainty. Mark Hughes wrote that according to Pirelli's own estimations Red Bull would be dominating races if we had hard-rock tyres. One-step changes of compounds won't be making such a big difference but it goes to show how the tyres steer things. Thinking more about this, I wonder if Lotus' slump in form in the second half of last year was as much down to the team getting out-developed as it was to more conservative tyre choices made by Pirelli which by default favoured the cars with higher downforce levels.

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#3360 swerved

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 20:22

Lotus to update suspension to control ride height.



"We will trial a suspension modification – internal rather than to the wishbones – which is an evolution of something we ran to good effect during pre-season."




http://www.f1technic...development/401

#3361 2ms

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 20:25

Lotus to update suspension to control ride height.



"We will trial a suspension modification – internal rather than to the wishbones – which is an evolution of something we ran to good effect during pre-season."




http://www.f1technic...development/401


For Bahrain, or when?

#3362 SpaMaster

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 20:28

Starting on super-softs in Australia was a double whammy for Vettel as he couldn't build as big a lead as softs would have allowed him to do in the first stint,

This has nothing to do with Lotus. Where Lotus reduced the pit-stop was with harder tyres. If that won't work, all these would not have mattered.

and a quicker first pitstop meant his fresh medium tyre advantage over Sutil when he reached him wasn't big enough to allow for an overtake.


You can't blame anyone for this. If you are going to make more stops, you better overtake people. And again this comes to the phase of harder compound

In China Raikkonen couldn't overtake Hamilton on track and drive away from him after making the undercut, that shows things were quite marginal as it was.

Don't agree with this. Raikkonen undercut Hamilton by about 6 laps or so. So in the final stint, their pace is not straight-forward comparison. The way to infer it was Raikkonen with 6-lap old harder tyres was still faster than Hamilton. This again show the advantage Lotus had with harder compounds.

It can go either way and depends on too many circumstances to predict anything with certainty. Mark Hughes wrote that according to Pirelli's own estimations Red Bull would be dominating races if we had hard-rock tyres. One-step changes of compounds won't be making such a big difference but it goes to show how the tyres steer things. Thinking more about this, I wonder if Lotus' slump in form in the second half of last year was as much down to the team getting out-developed as it was to more conservative tyre choices made by Pirelli which by default favoured the cars with higher downforce levels.

Lotus car was not lacking downforce by any means. They did not have coanda exhaust earlier, that's all. For that matter, they were one of the teams that did well in downforce tracks early in the season when they did not have fancy exhausts. As for Red Bull dominating hard tyre races, Hemberey is not at all a reliable man in this regard. Anyway, this is still not related to harder compounds we have seen in the season so far. We are talking about very hard rock-like tyres. That would of course hamper Lotus since their car is designed to be kind on tyres. The bottomline is the present hard and medium compounds are still on the softer side in general and it will only favour Lotus. Softs like we saw in China are too useless to give any gains to Lotus.

#3363 Watkins74

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 20:30

Alonso is these days being quoted probably more while commenting on Vettel and RBR, than on his own side of the fence. I have to agree with SpaMaster, that he has this year at least twice critiqued either RBR team and/or Vettel from underperforming based on resources in disposal. (Vettel in 2010, and now RBR in China). Make whatever you want of this, but one wonders where he finds all that time for his expert, and insider-like comments. (Maybe dinners with Webber do aid somewhat)?

So you think Vettel's Qualifying decision was the right one?

#3364 swerved

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 20:33

For Bahrain, or when?


Doesn't say anywhere, but its news thats been released in Bahrain so possibly this weekend ?

Saw elsewhere that Kimi is to try some parts that he hasn't had before that were fitted to Romains car last race, but can't remember where i saw it.


#3365 Diderlo

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 20:45

Yes the suspension is for Bahrain. It shouldn't be anything spectacular though, atleast Allison downplayed the update a bit.


#3366 swiniodzik

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 21:36

Lotus car was not lacking downforce by any means. They did not have coanda exhaust earlier, that's all. For that matter, they were one of the teams that did well in downforce tracks early in the season when they did not have fancy exhausts. As for Red Bull dominating hard tyre races, Hemberey is not at all a reliable man in this regard. Anyway, this is still not related to harder compounds we have seen in the season so far. We are talking about very hard rock-like tyres. That would of course hamper Lotus since their car is designed to be kind on tyres. The bottomline is the present hard and medium compounds are still on the softer side in general and it will only favour Lotus. Softs like we saw in China are too useless to give any gains to Lotus.


Lotus didn't have, and still doesn't have the peak downforce levels of at least Red Bull and it can be seen especially in qualifying. Allison all but admitted it when we was talking about the rear wing not being good enough in the rain in terms of downforce. I suspect the formula has changed and it's no longer about putting on as much downforce as you can as these tyres seem to have a threshold when they get over-stressed if you put too much load on them, and wear out from there. In other words, the Lotus is kinder on its tyres because it lacks downforce.

Again, my general point is that less marginal tyres will benefit everybody in isolation, just that these gains will look differently for various teams and who benefits in comparison with the rest of the field will only be known once the chequered flags drops. A one-stop-less strategy doesn't have to be the quicker option whenever it's possible, as for example doesn't have running one extra stint on options that others would be running on primes - as Lotus found out in the Spanish Grand Prix last year.

#3367 swiniodzik

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 22:53

So is there any particular (technical) reason why it´s so hard to set up the car for Grosjean´s driving style with the system? :confused:


Grosjean can't cope with a twitchy rear end as good as Raikkonen. In China he was consistently loosing about 0.5s in the first sector, probably not having confidence to go into turn one with as much speed as Kimi fearing that the rear could step out.

When a car brakes, the front end dives downwards and the rear end upwards accordingly, this may be making the rear unstable. Now last year Lotus didn't run the downforce-enhancing exhaust and this year it does, so when the driver goes off the throttle the rear loses some downforce and then when the brake pedal is pressed the matter is compounded. One of the advantages of this suspension system is apparently minimazing the diving effect.

As the system is passive, setting it up to work precisely must be a nightmare. So it could be the case of the same settings affecting the two drivers differently - with Romain needing a very precise working system more than Kimi who is naturally not as much bothered with the effect the system is trying to minimize. The opposite of the steering problems for Kimi from last year when he demanded a very precise steering system while Romain just got on with it.

#3368 OSX

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 23:01

Alonso: Kimi Is Driving Better Than Anyone
18 April 2013

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"Kimi (Raikkonen) had a fantastic start of the season – he is driving better than anyone else at the moment and also he clearly deserves to be there (in the championship standings)."

http://www.formula1....13/4/14474.html

#3369 OSX

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 23:58

Raikkonen Enjoys Better Chance of Title
18 April 2013

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Kimi Raikkonen says he has a better chance of winning the world championship this year than he did in 2012.

While Lotus was strong at many circuits last season, Raikkonen was only able to pick up one victory all year and it was his consistency which kept him in the title hunt late in to the season. This year he started off with victory in Australia and after another competitive showing in China Raikkonen admits he is already in a better position to fight for the title.

"In some ways yes [I have a better chance] because we started better," Raikkonen said. "I know the team and I kind of know what to expect and what's going to come. I think we did pretty OK last year so hopefully we can do a bit better this year but obviously it's a long season and we have some bad races and we might be out. So when we have a bad race we have to try to minimise those and make the most out of it."

Full Article: Espnf1.com/lotusf1/motorsport/story/105905.html

#3370 SpaMaster

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 04:28

Lotus didn't have, and still doesn't have the peak downforce levels of at least Red Bull and it can be seen especially in qualifying.

Yeah, but Red Bull is not the only team we are talking about. You said the conservative Pirelli tyres favoured cars with high downforce. It was not just Red Bull. McLaren and Ferrari were competitive too at that time.

all but admitted it when we was talking about the rear wing not being good enough in the rain in terms of downforce

This has nothing to do with the point of discussion. The wing was not generating enough downforce in rain, not in general.

I suspect the formula has changed and it's no longer about putting on as much downforce as you can as these tyres seem to have a threshold when they get over-stressed if you put too much load on them, and wear out from there. In other words, the Lotus is kinder on its tyres because it lacks downforce.

That is your suspicion, in other words pure speculation, because you have no evidence to prove it. Brawn on the other hand has said that Lotus has been the best in exploiting the FRIC suspension, hence their kindness to tyres. This is mechanical, not aero downforce related.

Again, my general point is that less marginal tyres will benefit everybody in isolation, just that these gains will look differently for various teams and who benefits in comparison with the rest of the field will only be known once the chequered flags drops. A one-stop-less strategy doesn't have to be the quicker option whenever it's possible, as for example doesn't have running one extra stint on options that others would be running on primes - as Lotus found out in the Spanish Grand Prix last year.

My point is taking softs away is not automatically bad news for Lotus. The difference has been telling with the harder of the two compounds because the harder ones are still much softer than a normal racing tyre one would expect.

Edited by SpaMaster, 19 April 2013 - 04:31.


#3371 Yoshi

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:36

According to TED@SKY.. Ferrari is trying to get Allison for 2014.

#3372 Wander

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:39

According to TED@SKY.. Ferrari is trying to get Allison for 2014.


Who isn't?

#3373 darkkis

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:40

According to TED@SKY.. Ferrari is trying to get Allison for 2014.

This is ridiculous... Big teams trying to hog all the talent. :o

#3374 Wander

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:40

This is ridiculous... Big teams trying to hog all the talent. :o


Are you being sarcastic? That's how it always is.

#3375 Shiroo

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:42

With McLaren where he would be probably leader didn't work, why would it work out with Ferrari where he wouldn't be the main ? I highly doubt he would be ahead of Fry

#3376 2ms

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:43

I wish there were salary caps like the way there are in other sports.

#3377 SpaMaster

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:43

Well, if Lotus would remain a big team, they won't lose Allison and Kimi. If they start to lose their key people to big teams, they won't be on the path to become a big team. Lopez would know this very well. These are problems he would be very happy to have that his less-resourced team is punching so much above the weight that its players are wanted by others. All he has to make sure is to secure the future of the team. Allison would love nothing more than winning a championship with Lotus.

#3378 Jovanotti

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:50

If Lotus is able to mount a serious challenge and maybe manage to keep Kimi on board for the next season or two, I frankly can't see Allison going anywhere. Why would he leave that vibrant squad to be one among thousand leaders in a big team? Money, prestige? If he challenges for titles with Lotus as long as Räikkönen drives there, he'll have the offers from the big teams coming also in three years. Age doesn't matter for engineers, he's not in a hurry as long as he's successful.

Edit: good times on mediums, on hards it remains to be seen.

Edited by Jovanotti, 19 April 2013 - 11:52.


#3379 SpaMaster

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:51

I suspect Kimi could have gone a couple of tenths quicker. His final corner wobble meant he was slower than the top-12 in the final sector in spite of going purple on the first two sectors. Not bad.

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#3380 SpaMaster

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:54

Allison had clearly stated earlier that if he would have the resources to build championship-winning cars, he has no reason to move to another team now. Lotus' fate is entirely in its own hands. Like I said, this is a good problem for Lotus. With such consistent showing the past 4 years, I am confident they would get some mega-sponsors in the coming months.

#3381 Alburaq

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:55

Both drivers just made their 'qualy simulation' lap and both made mistakes. Car looks fast. They should start their race sim soon.

Edited by Alburaq, 19 April 2013 - 11:56.


#3382 SpaMaster

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:15

I suspect the medium tyres may be the main tyres for Lotus in race.

#3383 Cyanide

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:21

Pace is good. If they can keep it up tomorrow and not lose it all of a sudden like in the previous two weekends, they should challenge Ferrari and Red Bull for pole and a win. Don't see Mercedes winning or even snatching a podium here.

#3384 SpaMaster

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:24

After all this running, Kimi's worn out mediums are only 1.5 s off the pace of other top runners running on relatively much fresher hards.

#3385 Jovanotti

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:27

According to Hembery, two stops could be possible and even the faster option. I guess Lotus will try this at least with Kimi, pace on mediums is good and consistent over a long stint.

How was the stint on hards earlier on?

Edited by Jovanotti, 19 April 2013 - 12:28.


#3386 Cyanide

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:32

According to Hembery, two stops could be possible and even the faster option. I guess Lotus will try this at least with Kimi, pace on mediums is good and consistent over a long stint.


Maybe not worth the risk if they start from pole. Which looks very achievable tomorrow if they keep the same pace.

#3387 SpaMaster

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:32

If Lotus could qualify high, they would have no need to go on different strategies from other teams. I think Kimi's switch to hards is pretty good as well. Lotus may be extrapolating medium's degradation to hards, and think that as long as the starting pace of hards are good, their hards-degradation may not be any different. Hence they probably did not bother too many much long runs with hard tyres.

Now, I just hope things don't magically turn around after Friday!

#3388 F.M.

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:32

Kimi looks strong! 2 stopper shouldn't be too difficult to pull for Lotus. Actually, I think most of the teams could do them.

Grosjean not too shabby either btw

Edited by F.M., 19 April 2013 - 12:38.


#3389 F.M.

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:33

If Lotus could qualify high, they would have no need to go on different strategies from other teams. I think Kimi's switch to hards is pretty good as well. Lotus may be extrapolating medium's degradation to hards, and think that as long as the starting pace of hards are good, their hards-degradation may not be any different. Hence they probably did not bother too many much long runs with hard tyres.

Now, I just hope things don't magically turn around after Friday!

I think Grosjean tested the longevity of the hards and Kimi the mediums?

#3390 SpaMaster

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:41

I did not notice what tyres Grosjean was on for his long run. Was he on hards?

#3391 F.M.

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:42

I did not notice what tyres Grosjean was on for his long run. Was he on hards?

afaik yes

#3392 Jovanotti

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:50

If Lotus could qualify high, they would have no need to go on different strategies from other teams.

True, although if you look how people are talking about Alonso's long run pace in FP2 (I didn't follow it frankly), it might be a way to beat the Ferrari's if they happen to be faster on ultimate pace.

Edited by Jovanotti, 19 April 2013 - 12:51.


#3393 intelligentsia

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:55

True, although if you look how people are talking about Alonso's long run pace in FP2 (I didn't follow it frankly), it might be a way to beat the Ferrari's if they happen to be faster on ultimate pace.


It is difficult to say, Alosno was running on hards and Kimi was on mediums.

Edited by intelligentsia, 19 April 2013 - 12:56.


#3394 Vesuvius

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:56

looks like Lotus (or only Kimi )has strong one lap pace (he could have done 1,33,6-
1,33,8 on that lap) but I expect more to come from RBR in quali. Long run pace is ok but so are times from Ferrari but Alonso did long run on hards...kimi's one on medium was better than Felipe's...hards may be quicker on lon run as Di Resta was doing 1,40 on 20 lap old tyres.

Edited by Vesuvius, 19 April 2013 - 12:57.


#3395 intelligentsia

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 13:00

looks like Lotus (or only Kimi )has strong one lap pace (he could have done 1,33,6-
1,33,8 on that lap) but I expect more to come from RBR in quali. Long run pace is ok but so are times from Ferrari but Alonso did long run on hards...kimi's one on medium was better than Felipe's...hards may be quicker on lon run as Di Resta was doing 1,40 on 20 lap old tyres.


It is difficult to say because did such a long run mediums, but virtually no long run on the hard tyres.


#3396 2ms

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 13:03

Allison had clearly stated earlier that if he would have the resources to build championship-winning cars, he has no reason to move to another team now. Lotus' fate is entirely in its own hands. Like I said, this is a good problem for Lotus. With such consistent showing the past 4 years, I am confident they would get some mega-sponsors in the coming months.


It's not entirely in their own hands: If they lose Kimi then they'll lose Allison. Why would he stay? There's no other driver available who is nearly on the same level as the drivers of other top teams. Allison's got better things to do then bust his ass to make fast cars and watch them go to waste. All it will take to lose Kimi is RBR paying him the same kind of money Ferrari paid to extract him out of McL in 2007. Like I said: wish there were salary caps the way there are in other sports.

#3397 SpaMaster

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 13:03

Alonso's long run was on mediums. But Raikkonen's long run on mediums were impressive as well in their own right.

Edited by SpaMaster, 19 April 2013 - 13:05.


#3398 Alburaq

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 13:09

looks like Lotus (or only Kimi )has strong one lap pace (he could have done 1,33,6-
1,33,8 on that lap)


Grosjean too (in S1 and S3 atleast). He made a mistake in S2 and lost 6 tenths.





#3399 SpaMaster

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 13:13

It's not entirely in their own hands: If they lose Kimi then they'll lose Allison. Why would he stay?

Why would they lose Kimi? If they contend for championship well and truly this year and shore up sponsor-funds for the future, why would they lose Kimi? Retaining Kimi is in their own hands (unless of course, he wants to retire, and I don't believe Kimi would leave for another team in the aforemention circumstance). Hence retaining Allison is in their own hands.

There's no other driver available who is nearly on the same level as the drivers of other top teams. Allison's got better things to do then bust his ass to make fast cars and watch them go to waste. All it will take to lose Kimi is RBR paying him the same kind of money Ferrari paid to extract him out of McL in 2007. Like I said: wish there were salary caps the way there are in other sports.

No, Raikkonen won't switch teams for salary. He did not switch from McLaren to Ferrari for money either. He clearly stated why he made that switch. If the aformentioned scenario happens, Raikkonen won't switch teams. You can mark my words.

Allison's efforts are not going waste. His efforts along with his many deserving team-members have gone to convert a mid-field team to contenders, and there is no reason why it would continue to progress that way.

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#3400 Alburaq

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 13:18

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