26 replies to this topic

[quintin cloud]

Hi all

I was mailed a web address from Boniver which speaks about a race on 25 Sep 1921 at the Avus Track , the problem is that I can not read German , now can somebody tell me what was writen , and if possible does anybody have a result from that event ?

url is : http://psv-berlin.de/avus.htm

[Michael Müller]

Translation:
25 September 1921
Start of the opening race at the Berlin AVUS, the “Automobil-Verkehrs- und Übungsstrasse (Automobile traffic and training road), with cars from NAG, Brennabor, Benz, Opel, Horch, NSU, and Adler. Somewhat more than 9 minutes Fritz von Opel, of course on Opel, needed for each of the 19.3 km laps, he was able to put this historic first heat on his account. In the second heat a third place was enough to make motorsport history as first overall winner.

Hereafter extract of my contribution to the 8W August 2000 game:

The first race meeting was held on September 24/25, 1921, organized by the AvD (Automobilclub von Deutschland) as special attraction to the International Automobile Exhibition held at Berlin that same week. In total 6 races took place, open for standard production cars of classes VIIIA, VIB, XB, VIA, VIIIB, and XA, where the Roman figures indicate the (tax) HP, and A or B the valve train construction. Fastest lap of the day was by Fritz von Opel with 8'14". Although some of the races had been very boring - e.g. 4 contenders and only one single finisher in race VIIIB -, it was an enormous success - 300.000 spectators watched the event on grandstands erected along the straights and at the corners.

And here the results:

24 Sept - Race 1 – VIIIA (8 HP – SV):
6 laps, 16 entries, 11 finishers
1 – Fritz von Opel – Opel
2 – Klöble – NSU
3 – Heim – Heim
FL: Fritz von Opel – 8:14 – lap 4

24 Sept - Race 2 – VIB (6 HP – OHV):
“Misserfolg” (failure)
No entries at all? Or only 1 or 2? No reports.

24 Sept - Race 3 – XB (10 HP – OHV):
8 laps, 10 entries, 5 finishers
1 – Hoerner – Benz
2 – Baier – Horch
3 – Enders – Horch
4 - ?
5 - ? – Simson (7 laps only)

25 Sept - Race 4 – VIA (6 HP – SV):
6 laps – 8 entries – 6 finishers
1 – Philipp – AGA
2 – Heinicke – Dixi
3 – Braun – Dixi
DNF (only cars mentioned): AGA, Heim

25 Sept - Race 5 – VIIIB (8 HP – OHV):
7 laps – 5 entries – 4 starters – 1 finisher
1 – Dunlop – Dinos
DNS (car only mentioned): Opel
DNF (cars only mentioned): Adler, Adler, Dinos


25 Sept - Race 6 – XA (10 HP – SV):
8 laps – 11 entries
1- Riecken – NAG
2- Breckheimer - Opel
3 - F.v.Opel – Opel (last 3 laps engine running on 4 cylinders only)

This last race is described as “the only real race” of the event. The other races had either a few entries only, and/or the potential of the cars/drivers was not similar, so no real competition could be watched by the spectators.

Source: contemporary article in “Der Motorwagen”, republished by Steiger (“Automobilrennen und Wettberbe in aller Welt”).

Lap charts can be scanned if really of interest.

[Hans Etzrodt]

The second race on Saturday was stopped after two laps (40 km) because both Benz and both Wanderer cars could do no more than two laps.

Class VI b (2-seat vehicles with up to 6 "Steuer" hp with hanging valves
1. Fritz Hörner (Benz)
2. Willi Walb (Benz)
3. Wilhelm Scholl (Wanderer)
4. Karl Loos (Wanderer)

[quintin cloud]

Micheal it would be nice if you could do that

[Michael Müller]

http://www.netcologn...n-Lapcharts.jpg

[quintin cloud]

thanks Micheal , question throu the results you posted , I'm guessing that those there all of the drivers in those races ?

[Michael Müller]

Only first three places had been published, total number of entrants and finishers shown for each race.

[David McKinney]

A little more on that Avus opening meeting:

Entries:

Class VIA
1. Hugo Wilhelm (Aga)
2. Otto Philipp (Aga)
3. Ernst Lehmann (Selve)
4. Willi Heinicke (Dixi)
5. G Hartlieb (Falcon)
6. Willi Köster (Selve)
7. Paul Gebser (Dixi) - driven by Braun?
no mention of a Heim

Class VIB
1. Fritz Hörner (Benz)
2. Willi Walb (Benz)
3. Wilhelm Scholl (Wanderer)
4. Karl Loos (Wanderer)
all four cars scratched

Class VIIIA
1. W Uren (Fafnir)
2. W Gischel (Presto)
3. C Reichstein (Brennabor)
4. Willi Köster (Selve)
5. Ernst Lehmann (Selve)
6. Albert Hagen (Brennabor)
7. Springsfeld (Fafnir)
8. Jean Horn (Dürkopp)
9. Georg Klöble (NSU)
10. Kordewan (Stoewer)
11. Reedel (Stoewer)
12. Franz Heim (Heim)
13. Eward Fiedler (Dürkopp)
15. Fritz von Opel (Opel)
15. Carl Jörns (Opel)
16. Arno Kermer (Presto)

Class VIIIB
nothing to add

Class XA
entries from Opel, NAG, Ehrhardt, Dürkopp, Adler, Apollo, Horch, Stoewer
An Adler finished fourth, followed by two Horches, a Stoewer and the Dürkopps.

Class XB
entries from Benz, Horch, Simson, Opel, Adler, Stieger

[Boniver]

David, Michael, Hans, Quintin

[Boniver]

The first race on Avus was 24 sept 1921

The first great races was Grosser Preis von Deutschland 11 july 1926

Then from 1931 the Avusrennen


Was there in 1922, 1923, 1924, 1925, 1927, 1928, 1929 and 1930 also a race ?

And who won this race ?

[Hans Etzrodt]

Some German Races During the Twenties

25 Sep 1921 Avusrennen, Fritz von Opel (Opel)
11 Jun 1922 Avusrennen, Christian Rieken (NAG)
30 Sep 1923 Avusrennen, Georg Klöble (NSU)
29 Jun 1924 Avusrennen, Jakob Scholl (NSU)
11 Jul 1926 German GP on Avus, a race for sports cars.

Germany did not host any GP races worth mentioning during the twenties. But most events on circuits were for sports cars, like the German GP and the Eifelrennen on the Nürburgring. Don’t forget the many mountain races, which were very popular all over Europe, especially during the twenties. Here are some other small circuit races where racing cars participated. They were not the GP cars of the time, which usually made FTD at the mountain races.

• Solituderennen in 1925, 26 and 27
• Buckower Dreiecksrennen in 1926, 27 and 28 last
• Hohensyburg-Rennen in 1925, 1927, 1928, 1930 and 1931
• Hohe Wurzel Rennen near Wiesbaden 1925-1928
• Nerobergrennen near Wiesbaden, a circuit race ran from 1926-1931.

[David McKinney]

Fascinating list, Hans. I always thought Hohe Wurzel was a hillclimb - fooled by the name, perhaps!
If you were taking the full list up to 1931, there were of course further Avusrennen meetings in 1925 and 1931, and the Nürburgring hosted the Eifelrennen each year from 1927, not to mention the German GP.

As far as the smaller meetings are concerned, I have reference to a Buckower dreieck race in 1925 (as well as in the later years you mention), and numerous other races. Some may be different names for the same event, others are possibly hillclimbs, or perhaps rallies. But some at least were circuit races.
Three of these meetings seem to have been quite important. One was in the Nideggen area (not far from the Nürburgring) and run every year from 1922 to 1926, apart from 1923. The race went under a variety of names, including Eifelrundfahrt and Eifelrennen. There was also the Teutoburgowald event 1924-1927 and in 1925 an ADAC event called the Hindenburg Cup, based on a Taunus course similar to the one used for the 1907 Kaiserpreis.

I also have references to the following meetings:
Berlin Stadium, Charlottenburg, 1923 (another name for Avus?)
Schleizer dreieck 1923
Swinemünde dreieck 1923
Garmisch-Partenkirchen 1924-1931 (some or all meetings on Eibsee)
Hirschfeld 1924
Kodelburg 1924
Marienberg dreieck 1924
a park in Hanover 1924
Opelbahn, Russelheim, 1925 (and earlier?)
Vogelsberg (=Nideggen?) 1925
Hohentweil 1925
Bleichröde, Munich, 1926
Isergebirg, Bad Finsberg, 1928

[fines]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Berlin Stadium, Charlottenburg, 1923 (another name for Avus?)
Schleizer dreieck 1923

The Berlin Stadium race was not on the AVUS, but on a 2/3 km track in a - Berlin Stadium! We had a thread about that race just recently, with full results.

The Schleizer Dreiecksrennen was the main GDR event in the post-WW2 era, I think it's still contested these days. I have some info about obscure Formula Junior and Formula Easter races held there in the sixties and seventies.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by David McKinney
...Isergebirg, Bad Finsberg, 1928

The 2.0 km Isergebirgs-Rennen was one of the many little German mountain climbs held every January from 1928 to 1932. I don't know very much about all these minor races because I spend my time mostly with Grand Prix racing of that time, which has enough controversy to keep a person busy.

[Boniver]

Hans, David

Thanks

[Paul Taylor]

Quite a popular picture, apparently happened in practice. Anyone want to hazard a guess as to who?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Michael Ferner]

Well, the caption on the last pic mentions two fatalities, which I'm pretty sure can't refer to the 1921 AVUS races, nor any other up to 1926 iinm. The car looks (very) early twenties, though I can't quite ID it - I'm not too good at small German racing cars of the early twenties, I'll readily admit, and there were plenty in those days. Even if non-fatal, this was certainly a major crash, and would have made the news, but unfortunately German newspapers are not as readily available as the US newspapers.

There were, however, a few driver substitutions before the 1921 races, notably Breckenheimer for Jörns at Opel (but I don't think that's an Opel), Braun for Gebser at Dixi, one or two Brennabors and virtually the complete Horch team. Seeing as the car looks very much repairable, maybe one of them crashed in practice?

[Tim Murray]

Google throws up this fascinating series of photos taken at that 1921 meeting:

https://www.granger....=1&rowx=33#ROW5

[Paul Taylor]

Michael - I think we would have heard about the fatalities if they were. Plus one of the people on the track is clearly conscious.

 

I confirmed it's a Horch by comparing the Horch of Albert Hirrlinger (1921), with another Horch from the 1922 race (see here: http://i68.tinypic.com/2011v2a.jpg )

 

The problem is definitely with names though. In the race results, Hirrlinger, Baier and Enders appear. Tanhäuser must have been there because he's pictured here alongside Hörner's Benz (see below). And yet another source states the entries were XA - Günther and Enders, XB - Lehmann and Tauhäuser. By the way, maybe Vater is the co-driver, hence "Enders und Vater"?

 

 

It has to be during one of the Training sessions, in the sequence of pics we have, no other car is seen but there are a lot of people around. The official training sessions were completed on 17th September, a whole week before the first races. Photos were taken by Walter Gircke, R. Sennecke and Stöckler.

 

As far as primary sources go, myself and a colleague (whose German is better than mine) have been reviewing various digitised newspapers/periodicals, all of which report on the races - Berliner Börsenzeitung and it's photographic supplement Zeitbilder, Berliner Tageblatt, Berliner Volkszeitung and Die Voss. If you can speak German and decipher gothic script these are a beautiful resource 

http://zefys.staatsb...921/?no_cache=1

 

About Joerns - it says in the Börsenzeitung that he crashed at Russelsheim prior to 17th Sept and broke his ribs, hence he was replaced with Breckenheimer.

Edited by Paul Taylor, 24 March 2016 - 14:19.

[Michael Ferner]

Paul, many thanks for that link - truly a beautiful resource, however it does not seem to be searchable, is it? I can't believe they're not able to OCR gothic script! ​

[Paul Taylor]

Paul, many thanks for that link - truly a beautiful resource, however it does not seem to be searchable, is it? I can't believe they're not able to OCR gothic script! ​

 

I can barely read it, I doubt a computer would have much better luck   Oh well, it means sitting here reading page after page, hoping to find something useful, like the good old days of going to libraries!

 

I've just purchased Miroir Des Sports Issue 64 (22/09/1921) as it has a nice photo of Jean Horn in the Dürkopp on the front. I'm hoping inside there are more photos from practice, including one of the crash. The photos in the post above are from Issue 66 (06/10/1921) (which someone took a photo of and put online). I really want to get this mystery solved!

[Paul Taylor]

Oh my. I think it says Schneider, and his co-driver Müller were travelling at 150kph, hit the embankment and overturned three times. Schneider broke his forearm, and Müller suffered "abdominal bruising"? And I see Horchwerke (?). And Krankenhaus. Who are Schneider and Mueller? This is completely and utterly solved 

 

 

(Src: Berliner Börsenzeitung, 17 Sept 1921, p.4)

 

 

Not from the newspaper, but from somewhere else:

 

Edited by Paul Taylor, 25 March 2016 - 07:42.

[Michael Ferner]

Great job! ​

[Paul Taylor]

I would suggest that Vaters was not 'merely' a co-driver as his name specifically appears in period reports, unlike all of the other co-drivers. In this regard a co-driver was effectively the riding mechanic and did not necessarily drive in the race.

 

Schneider is Max Schneider. The problem here is that he drove a Stoewer in the Group Xa class, not a Horch. Müller is clearly Schneider's 'co-driver' ie, riding mechanic and consequently his name does not appear in the period entry/results lists.

 

I see it in the same case as Gebser / Braun in the Dixi. One newspaper lists Gebser, the other, Braun.

 

Max Schneider drove quite a good race in the finals on the Sunday, but the newspaper doesn't report he drove injured or anything, which makes me wonder if he's a different Schneider. 

 

Getty's caption - "race cars starting for a trainings race / heat in front of the tribune; right handed Max Schneider's racing car (Stoewer Klasse X A) - September 1921"

[Paul Taylor]

This photo appeared in Englebert magazine in 1921. The supporting caption referred to a Horch but omitted to name the driver.

 

Do you own a copy of this magazine by any chance?

[Paul Taylor]

Simon has sent me a whole wealth of very useful information on the AVUS 1921 race and I'm extremely grateful! I'm in the process of compiling it and hopefully providing a proper English account of the races at some point.

 

Incidentally, I finally got to the bottom of understanding the Horch story of the AVUS race regarding 'Schneider' thanks to an Austrian newspaper. The Horch that crashed in our photo was actually Hirrlinger's car. He was meant to race the #7 Horch in Klasse XB, except some guy called Schneider decided he wanted a go, took the turn too fast and ended up hitting the bank and rolling a few times.

 

I'm quite sure this isn't Schneider as in Max Schneider, who was destined to drive the Stoewer from the off. Also given that the Horch Schneider fractured his arm in two places I doubt he would have been racing 10 days later. 

Eventually Hirrlanger ended up driving a #10 Klasse Horch in class XA with Seidel in the other. Also on the Saturday, Lehmann had to give his Horch up to Enders, while Tannhäuser gave his to Willi Baier (Baier looks much like Vater in gothic script btw). I haven't found any evidence that there were ever any more than two Horches at AVUS and they simply changed the numbers between races.

 

This is the only photo I'm certain of the ID...Willi Baier starting the XB race alongside Friedrich's Ehrhardt:
 

 

 

This is listed in at least three places as being Tannhäuser. It's clearly the same car as above (look at the registration plate), but when you compare this with the previous photo you realise it's the same driver. Look at the co-driver's googles for example, and compare their height:

 

 

Going by race numbers, this should be Hirrlinger with a NAG behind him, but that doesn't make any sense as Hirrlinger started behind both NAGs and never overtook them. However all photos in the publication do seem to be from the race. At least we can see it's different form the above because it has spoked wheels instead of solid hubs.

 

 

 

Although that doesn't explain THIS. It's listed as Albert Hirrlinger in 1921 (I'm sure it's him based on a 1913 photo), there's a nice #1 suggesting the same car number, but look at the wheels... Given there's a photo of Getty of the 1926 race and it's labelled 1921 I wouldn't take what they say as gospel, but the description on this seemed quite specific ("The driver Hirrlinger on the Horch 10/30 PS. 7. bevore the race of the group Xa (160 km in 1:26:21)"). It says "7" there too, but I don't know if they're getting that from an official record, or if they're looking at the 1 on the image and thinking it's a 7. Oh god, it probably doesn't matter!

 

 

 

 

[Paul Taylor]

Paul,

I can sense your frustration. From personal experience I find that digging into the early AVUS races often gives rise to as many new questions as answers.

 

Your observation about the similarity of Vater and Baier in the Gothic script is quite correct. However, I would refer you to the Wiener Sporttagblatt article of 29th September 1921. In the "III Rennen Gruppe XB" section there is a Horch credited to M Vater and another Horch to Baier.

 

Simon.

 

I noticed that, but it is the only source that does that. You may have also noticed the sources aren't always sure who is driving what car. The Baier/Tannhäuser mix-up for example. Or the misspellings of names. Irrlinger / /Hirlinger/ Hirrlinger, Seidl / Seidel, Reedl / Reedel. Henney / Heney, Heinz von Opel / Hans von Opel.

 

To me it seems the reporter has just made a mistake, they all look identical:

 

 

I'd imagine to the reporters, it was these great feats of German engineering, and how they performed on their brand new Autobahn, which was more important. Hence why the results are often listed by make, with the driver's names in brackets.

 

Of the drivers themselves, Fritz von Opel was probably the most noteworthy. His dad started the Opel company, his son raced an Ensign in F1 in the 1970s. Albert Hirrlinger was the 1913 Swedish Ice racing champion. Most other racers were either company director of the manufacturer, or one of the chief engineers/designers. Willi Walb was a Benz engineer and went on to lead one of the technical teams behind Auto Union in the 30s. Ernst Lehmann was the Selve director. Christian Riecken was N.A.G.'s chief designer. Gottlieb Hartlieb was Falcon director. Karl Slevogt was Apollo director.

 

One of the German newspapers on 14th Sept. 1921 revealed that in detail: