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Bottas vs Maldonado - 2013


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#51 Velocifer

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 23:20

Fair admission really; this car's characteristics with the front and rear tyre temperature gap doesn't suit his style and he is not yet able to adapt when he is already set for the different one from last year.

I remember a press conference with Bottas early or before the season where he was asked to describe his driving style and he surprisingly said "adaptable" (paraphrasing) which I thought was impressive if true which now seems might be the case.

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#52 BoschKurve

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 00:08

...which should all be proof that Maldonado is nothing more than a midfield driver. He lucked into that win in Barcelona last season, and I'll never see him as being anything more than the Venezuelan version of Andrea de Cesaris.

Bottas has a far brighter future in my opinion, but we'll see if he can capitalize on it.

#53 discover23

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 01:07

This excuse only applies to drivers with a big fan base.

#54 SgtPepperoni

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 10:15

It appears that today it's always due to a technical reason why driver A is slower or faster than driver B. Either the car is not built to suit the drivers style, or the tyres favour the other guys style, or a driver will find a certain set of brake componants don't suit his style, or..........(fill your own excuse in here).
What a load of garbage. Easiest cop-out is always blame the material. It's never the cook, and always the stove. Yeah, right. What happened to the good old days when guys just got out-driven?

Edited by SgtPepperoni, 25 June 2013 - 10:16.


#55 joora

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 10:21

...which should all be proof that Maldonado is nothing more than a midfield driver. He lucked into that win in Barcelona last season, and I'll never see him as being anything more than the Venezuelan version of Andrea de Cesaris.

Bottas has a far brighter future in my opinion, but we'll see if he can capitalize on it.


How does one luck into a win on a dry qualy and race without any big accidents? My take is that he won that one fair and square. He showed flashes of raw speed throughout the whole last year, and he has visibly more aggressive driving style. If this years car had similar characteristics I'm confident that he would've beaten Bottas. His inability to adapt to the characteristics of the car is a problem which is hampering his performance, and he should learn how to get around it, but the fact is that this years car is dog slow on a dry track, no matter how you drive it.

#56 motorhead

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 10:38

This was on the previous page too, but it seems to be that Williams chief racing engineer donĀ“t know what he is doing. He claims that they have quite similar driving styles...or could it be just Pastor :drunk:

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#57 BoschKurve

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 13:05

How does one luck into a win on a dry qualy and race without any big accidents? My take is that he won that one fair and square. He showed flashes of raw speed throughout the whole last year, and he has visibly more aggressive driving style. If this years car had similar characteristics I'm confident that he would've beaten Bottas. His inability to adapt to the characteristics of the car is a problem which is hampering his performance, and he should learn how to get around it, but the fact is that this years car is dog slow on a dry track, no matter how you drive it.


Williams wins on Sir Frank's 70th birthday?

A little too coincidental for my tastes to be honest.

But regarding the overall 2012 season, he had a car that suited him quite well, and did ok with it. We can't forget the races he through away through a large portion of the season through his own stupidity. But if you give any F1 driver a car that suits their abilities, you'll get good things out of them. It's what they do when they do not have that car that tells you more about their overall abilities.

Beating Rubens overall shouldn't have meant a great deal because I think it was Eddie Jordan who said way back in 1995, that Rubens had a tendency to get lazy at times. While he could certainly shine when things were in his favor, Rubens was always a tad overrated anyway. Certainly was never in the great pantheon of Brazilian drivers ever.

#58 Baddoer

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 13:48

So much hate for Pastor, interesting. I haven't seen anything special from Bottas apart from one fluke qualifying and throwing out points in Monaco. You can adapt forever but if car is a dog it gives you nothing.

Edited by Baddoer, 25 June 2013 - 13:48.


#59 handel

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 14:11

Williams wins on Sir Frank's 70th birthday?

A little too coincidental for my tastes to be honest.


Hadn't heard this conspiracy theory before. How is it supposed to have played out?


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#60 olliek88

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 17:12

BOTTAS has done a good job so far this season, Pastor is no mug and Valterri has kept him more than honest, it'll be interesting to see how it progresses as the season goes on.

One observation though, is it not a little worrying for Pastor that a rookie has come in and A) done a better job (by and large) and B) is more adaptable despite less knowledge of both F1 machinery and the Pirellis.

Pastor is clearly a quick driver, erratic, but quick. However, Valterri's record suggests an underlying talent that, perhaps, Pastor doesn't quiet possess. That's just how i see it based on the information available to us but time will tell how they compare.

#61 autosportfan

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 17:19

Hadn't heard this conspiracy theory before. How is it supposed to have played out?


To me it was more suspicious that Ferrari won couple years ago in Silverstone their only race of the season when the rules about the diffusers were changed for ONE RACE ONLY!



#62 Nemo1965

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 17:26


I have my suspicions about Williams win at Barcelona last year, but even if you believe the car was legit (there is no proof otherwise), I think that Maldonado is the least deserving Grand Prix winner of the last two decades. Fast, yeah, but so error-prone, such a bad racer, I believe there are so many drivers around who could have done a better job in the Williams last year, and in this years car.

Sure, it is only my opinion, but ask yourself this: is there any chance that any team would offer Maldonado a place now, even with his Grand Prix win, if he did not have the oil-money? I don't think so.



#63 discover23

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 17:32

I have my suspicions about Williams win at Barcelona last year, but even if you believe the car was legit (there is no proof otherwise), I think that Maldonado is the least deserving Grand Prix winner of the last two decades. Fast, yeah, but so error-prone, such a bad racer, I believe there are so many drivers around who could have done a better job in the Williams last year, and in this years car.

Sure, it is only my opinion, but ask yourself this: is there any chance that any team would offer Maldonado a place now, even with his Grand Prix win, if he did not have the oil-money? I don't think so.

yet, we've had so many other drives race for Williams since JPM and Ralf left and the only one who has been able to win since is Maldonado. Most young drivers today bring some sponsorship money.. without it I doubt anyone can get a decent drive.

Edited by discover23, 25 June 2013 - 17:33.


#64 Nemo1965

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 19:34

yet, we've had so many other drives race for Williams since JPM and Ralf left and the only one who has been able to win since is Maldonado. Most young drivers today bring some sponsorship money.. without it I doubt anyone can get a decent drive.


True... but the disappointing thing is: if Bottas would win a Grand Prix, hell, if he even lead one, or put the car on pole once, you know that he still wil be in F1 in three years time, sponsorship or not.

Maldonado, however...

Let me say this about Maldonado and Bottas: I think compared with the average drivers of ten or fifteen years ago, they are of a higher level, because the level of F1 has gone up. But I can't really judge how well Bottas is doing, because Maldonado is still an uncertain yardstick, even though he has won a Grand Prix by now...



#65 BoschKurve

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 20:12

Hadn't heard this conspiracy theory before. How is it supposed to have played out?


I believe in spite of the claims that the tires supplied to the teams are random, Pastor's FW-34 managed to get something like the qualifiers from the "good old days", without any increased degradation. Now I do believe the FW-34 was a fundamentally good car that was capable of much more last year than what ultimately happened. However, there was nothing to indicate the FW-34 was capable of grabbing P1 or P2 going into the race. I would have bet top 10 at the absolute best with him closer to P10 at that circuit.

Maldonado's Q efforts before Barcelona were: 8, 11, 8, 17 (21 due to grid penalty).

He takes P2 in Barcelona, and that became P1 when Lewis was excluded.

Then the next few races saw him: 9, 17, before landing P3 at Valencia.

To be fair, he did have some good Q efforts in 2012, but nothing like Barcelona.

Like I said, I think the entire thing was a gift from Ecclestone to Sir Frank as thanks for backing him for all those years.

#66 olliek88

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 20:20

:rolleyes:

#67 BoschKurve

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 20:40

:rolleyes:


Ollie,

A team getting better tires than other teams wouldn't exactly be a new occurrence within the overall scope of F1's history.

While a fairly solid car, the FW-34 was not a grand prix winning car by any stretch of the imagination. Winning a grand prix with that car would have been more plausible if we were still in the days where reliability was far less than what it was now.

#68 discover23

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 20:46

True... but the disappointing thing is: if Bottas would win a Grand Prix, hell, if he even lead one, or put the car on pole once, you know that he still wil be in F1 in three years time, sponsorship or not.


let's wait until he does that and then comeback.


#69 Cool Beans

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 20:53

I believe in spite of the claims that the tires supplied to the teams are random, Pastor's FW-34 managed to get something like the qualifiers from the "good old days", without any increased degradation. Now I do believe the FW-34 was a fundamentally good car that was capable of much more last year than what ultimately happened. However, there was nothing to indicate the FW-34 was capable of grabbing P1 or P2 going into the race. I would have bet top 10 at the absolute best with him closer to P10 at that circuit.

Maldonado's Q efforts before Barcelona were: 8, 11, 8, 17 (21 due to grid penalty).

He takes P2 in Barcelona, and that became P1 when Lewis was excluded.

Then the next few races saw him: 9, 17, before landing P3 at Valencia.

To be fair, he did have some good Q efforts in 2012, but nothing like Barcelona.

Like I said, I think the entire thing was a gift from Ecclestone to Sir Frank as thanks for backing him for all those years.

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#70 Vesuvius

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 20:57

Ollie,

A team getting better tires than other teams wouldn't exactly be a new occurrence within the overall scope of F1's history.

While a fairly solid car, the FW-34 was not a grand prix winning car by any stretch of the imagination. Winning a grand prix with that car would have been more plausible if we were still in the days where reliability was far less than what it was now.


You have been either drinking or smoking something far stronger than tobacco :rotfl:

#71 SophieB

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 21:09

Enough of Barcelona 2012 now, please and back to Bottas vs Maldonado.

#72 BoschKurve

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 21:56

You have been either drinking or smoking something far stronger than tobacco :rotfl:


You guys still don't get the sort of underhanded double-dealings that go on in F1. I know it's fun to write it off as nothing, and make absurd personal insults because you have nothing better to say. However, if you guys really had any true understanding of politics, you probably wouldn't be so quick to discount what exactly goes on behind the curtain.

Keeping in with Sophie's request, what my point comes back to is that in spite of winning a grand prix, Maldonado is the worst GP winner since Olivier Panis at the debacle of Monaco 1996.

He isn't close to Bottas. I wasn't keen on Bottas before he started driving, but really, that a rookie is easily outperforming a guy with way more experience than he, in spite of not having raced at all in 2012.

#73 quaint

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 22:11

So much hate for Pastor, interesting. I haven't seen anything special from Bottas apart from one fluke qualifying and throwing out points in Monaco. You can adapt forever but if car is a dog it gives you nothing.


If you don't think clearly beating your experienced team mate as a rookie is "anything special", that can only be because you don't think much of the experienced team mate to begin with. I haven't really seen any more extreme views here, so either you're joining the "hate" (why bother comment) or have double standards.

Proper racing drivers always thrive to do their best, even if even that isn't a whole lot. I really can't understand why you ever thought it was a good idea to hold that against Bottas.

Edited by quaint, 25 June 2013 - 22:12.


#74 Santuri9

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 08:13

Im hoping for another wet qualy for bottas to put the car up there. Then a wet race so williams can finally bag some points!

#75 Baddoer

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 08:40

If you don't think clearly beating your experienced team mate as a rookie is "anything special", that can only be because you don't think much of the experienced team mate to begin with. I haven't really seen any more extreme views here, so either you're joining the "hate" (why bother comment) or have double standards.

Proper racing drivers always thrive to do their best, even if even that isn't a whole lot. I really can't understand why you ever thought it was a good idea to hold that against Bottas.

I'm not seeing anything but a fact manipulation in your words. Next!

#76 sopa

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 08:43

Keeping in with Sophie's request, what my point comes back to is that in spite of winning a grand prix, Maldonado is the worst GP winner since Olivier Panis at the debacle of Monaco 1996.


I saw Panis career. He was better than Maldonado.

I don't hold Maldo in high esteem. His speed is not that bad, but racecraft is below all race winners I have seen in my life. Nonetheless Bottas is doing a good job to outperform him already now.

#77 Konsta

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 09:42

How does one luck into a win on a dry qualy and race without any big accidents? My take is that he won that one fair and square. He showed flashes of raw speed throughout the whole last year, and he has visibly more aggressive driving style. If this years car had similar characteristics I'm confident that he would've beaten Bottas. His inability to adapt to the characteristics of the car is a problem which is hampering his performance, and he should learn how to get around it, but the fact is that this years car is dog slow on a dry track, no matter how you drive it.

That cannot be. By his own admission all tech stuff regarding the car has come from him. Has he deliberately shot himself in the foot by giving out feedback that only helps Bottas...or could it just be that he is not that good?

#78 Anderis

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 10:59

FW34 had the pace to finish in top8 in all single race in 2012 apart from Canada and Korea. Maldonado qualified in top3 5 times and with a bit of luck, he could be in contention for a win also in Abu Dhabi (failed KERS, until this happened he was laping comfortably faster than Alonso), Singapore (he was closely following top2 and tried to undercut before SC and mechanical failure, and he lost 2 places on lap1 which compromised his race also) and who knows what he could have done in Spa, where he qualified 3rd and is known to be a great racer there.
If points were given for qualifying, not races, Maldonado was closely matched with both Lotus' drivers in 2012.
The results didn't do the justice for FW34. It really deserved more than one podium finish last year. People don't see this and therefore we have some theories about gifts, special tyres etc.

I also disagree that Maldonado is still an uncertain yardstick. As a rookie with less F1 car mileage that many of other rookies even nowadays, he matched known-quality Rubens throughout 2011 and outshone him on occasion. Then he completely dominated Senna on pace.
If there comes a rookie and comfortably beats him in all aspects (raw pace, adaptability, consistentcy, mistakelessness) that means that this rookie is good. At least this is how I see it. The unknown quality would be, if he beats Maldonado's weak points (ability to have troublefree races) but loses to his strong points (qualifying pace). But he beats Pastor all along.

#79 BoschKurve

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 13:00

I saw Panis career. He was better than Maldonado.

I don't hold Maldo in high esteem. His speed is not that bad, but racecraft is below all race winners I have seen in my life. Nonetheless Bottas is doing a good job to outperform him already now.


Good point sopa.

Maldonado's racecraft is suspect, and has been for well over a year. He threw away a bunch of points last season due to stupid, ill-timed decisions that were unwarranted.

It's a pity the FW-35 didn't pick up where the FW-34 left off because I would love to see Bottas in a more competitive car. One of Maldonado's biggest problems is he is likely in shock that Bottas has easily outperformed him more often than not. The funny thing is, Bottas said he would spend the first half of the season just acclimating to driving in race situations and the like...so my question becomes, what happens when he really starts going for it?

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#80 Pitlane

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 15:50

Good point sopa.

Maldonado's racecraft is suspect, and has been for well over a year. He threw away a bunch of points last season due to stupid, ill-timed decisions that were unwarranted.

It's a pity the FW-35 didn't pick up where the FW-34 left off because I would love to see Bottas in a more competitive car. One of Maldonado's biggest problems is he is likely in shock that Bottas has easily outperformed him more often than not. The funny thing is, Bottas said he would spend the first half of the season just acclimating to driving in race situations and the like...so my question becomes, what happens when he really starts going for it?


Wouldnt worry about that the way he's been driving. But I doubt it will be in a Williams :)

#81 olliek88

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 16:45

Part of me is enjoying the BOTTAS hype but equally it should be remembered he's still a rookie, he's going to have tough moments and make mistakes, something he should be given a bit of leeway with when they do happen. That being said, he's not really put a foot wrong so far in terms of rookie errors. (That i can remember anyway, i'm sure someone will correct me though!  ;) )

#82 Ze Bum

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 17:26

Part of me is enjoying the BOTTAS hype but equally it should be remembered he's still a rookie, he's going to have tough moments and make mistakes, something he should be given a bit of leeway with when they do happen. That being said, he's not really put a foot wrong so far in terms of rookie errors. (That i can remember anyway, i'm sure someone will correct me though! ;) )


His starts have not been very good but I guess he has been careful. Can't blame him for that, it must be rare for a rookie to finish his 7 first races.

Then of course the Monaco radio call: "ZZHGRHZDON'TZXGHHZZ LET RAIKKONEN PASS ZZZRGGHHZZRXZZZ" :p


#83 ardbeg

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 22:09

I never liked Maldonado but he looked quick at times last year. The interview in Autosport did not make me like him more, it was just him speaking out loud the shortcomings I thought he had. And the attitude.
Seriously, "put energy into the car"? Pastor, the car has the power of 800 horses. It does not need you to add some of yours. Your job is to get the energy out from the car!

#84 scandyman

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 16:33

Q and Race goes to Maldonado. It didn't really help Bottas though, that his setup was messed during qualifying and it could not be fixed for race.

#85 hogstar

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 14:07

Very little between the two again in the woeful FW35. Both drivers must be very disillusioned and deserve better.

#86 sopa

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 20:54

Very little between the two again in the woeful FW35. Both drivers must be very disillusioned and deserve better.


Maldonado seems like an inferior and crash-prone version of Button. Goes well only if the car is good, well-balanced and fast. As proven by lots of good grid positions last year. But in a bad car is struggling. Though the second half of 2011 wasn't that bad in what also wasn't a good car.

#87 scandyman

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 08:39

Bottas said on finnish MTV3 interview that he likes well working front end and worse thing for him is understeer. Comparing his driving style to Maldonado, Bottas likes that car is more responsive in the middle of the corner, and for Maldonado more important is responsive front end when entering corners.

#88 Mauseri

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:13

Bottas said on finnish MTV3 interview that he likes well working front end and worse thing for him is understeer. Comparing his driving style to Maldonado, Bottas likes that car is more responsive in the middle of the corner, and for Maldonado more important is responsive front end when entering corners.

Typical differences between aggressive and responsive driving styles I think.