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Emirates - Official Airline to F1?


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#1 f1fan1998

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 18:48

Looks like Emirates are about to be announced as the Official Airline to F1. Don't quote me on the rights, but there is certainly something going on between the airline and FOM.

Yet another deal snatched from the teams. I bet they are chuffed....

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#2 Clatter

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 18:57

What has been snatched from the teams here?

#3 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 19:00

A continuation or the larger version of the travel arrangement? I think they were the recommended airline when booking tickets/flights/hotels via F1.com

#4 juicy sushi

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 19:01

Todt and Bernie learning from the France family...

#5 Risil

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 19:11

Todt and Bernie learning from the France family...


Will the FIA receive any of the money?

#6 Craigster

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 20:21

Looks like Emirates are about to be announced as the Official Airline to F1. Don't quote me on the rights, but there is certainly something going on between the airline and FOM.

Yet another deal snatched from the teams. I bet they are chuffed....


Doh! You need to learn a bit more about how F1 works! The teams share 50% of the profits from F1 as prize money. If you have guessed lucky and Emirates (or any other airline for that matter) becomes an Official Partner of the Championship then all the teams will benefit from it

#7 Risil

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 20:26

Doh! You need to learn a bit more about how F1 works! The teams share 50% of the profits from F1 as prize money. If you have guessed lucky and Emirates (or any other airline for that matter) becomes an Official Partner of the Championship then all the teams will benefit from it


... Half as much.

#8 f1fan1998

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 20:55

Thanks for the condescending tone Craigster. I indeed work in and around F1. I know quite well how it works. I am also quite aware of the breakdown of the numbers / column structure in the soon to expire concorde agreement.

The point is (hidden behind the obvious and so I shall explain it) that since Allsport Managements disbanding FOM have stepped up their sales effort. Hence Rolex etc...

Yes the teams get a portion of the Emirates and Rolex deals and so on, but if they were better at their own sales jobs, they would actually be getting 100% of the deal... Therein lies my point. The teams offer little in the way of excitement and commercial value back to a sponsor, as they simply don't understand half of what they are selling.

Until Curnow came into Renault (now Lotus) the commercial operation was a bit of a joke and they for one simply didn't get it. Now the commercial operation has been turned around they have built real value and hence are winning deals (and consequently have more money for development and hence can have a better car and win races!)

As always - the more money the teams have, the more research and development they can do the more they stand a chance of moving up the pecking order and so to have 100% of a good opportunity taken away from them should frustrate them. They are a competitive bunch you know.




#9 Clatter

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 21:13

I must be missing something here.

I don't see this as anything unusual, nor do I see that the teams have somehow had something taken away from them.

#10 chdphd

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 21:19

Didn't Paul Stoddart of Minardi fame help with F1 transport before he fell out of favour?

#11 Red17

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 21:20

As far as I can see it's a naming agreement, unless Emirates has demanded exclusive rights like Sunoco did in Nascar, it will not prevent other air lines to sponsor teams.

#12 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 21:20

I must be missing something here.

I don't see this as anything unusual, nor do I see that the teams have somehow had something taken away from them.


Previously Allsport used to steer sponsors towards being involved with teams instead of only buying trackside advertising. So now the deals with F1 aren't complimenting team deals but competing with them.

Yes yes everyone gets a share. That's great for Marussia, less so McLaren if they were trying to (re)land a team deal.

#13 f1fan1998

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 21:28

Thank you Ross.



#14 Clatter

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 21:33

Previously Allsport used to steer sponsors towards being involved with teams instead of only buying trackside advertising. So now the deals with F1 aren't complimenting team deals but competing with them.

Yes yes everyone gets a share. That's great for Marussia, less so McLaren if they were trying to (re)land a team deal.


But hasn't there been an official airline for sometime now? In the same way as there is an official timing company?

#15 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 21:38

No.

#16 f1fan1998

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 22:22

Clatter - you are probably thinking of DHL which is the official logistics partner but happens to own its own airline for shipping.

#17 Craigster

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 22:51

Thanks for the condescending tone Craigster. I indeed work in and around F1. I know quite well how it works. I am also quite aware of the breakdown of the numbers / column structure in the soon to expire concorde agreement.

The point is (hidden behind the obvious and so I shall explain it) that since Allsport Managements disbanding FOM have stepped up their sales effort. Hence Rolex etc...

Yes the teams get a portion of the Emirates and Rolex deals and so on, but if they were better at their own sales jobs, they would actually be getting 100% of the deal... Therein lies my point. The teams offer little in the way of excitement and commercial value back to a sponsor, as they simply don't understand half of what they are selling.

Until Curnow came into Renault (now Lotus) the commercial operation was a bit of a joke and they for one simply didn't get it. Now the commercial operation has been turned around they have built real value and hence are winning deals (and consequently have more money for development and hence can have a better car and win races!)

As always - the more money the teams have, the more research and development they can do the more they stand a chance of moving up the pecking order and so to have 100% of a good opportunity taken away from them should frustrate them. They are a competitive bunch you know.


I'm not being condescending but just pointing out flaws in your post and there are more above which indicate that your knowledge of the way F1 works is limited. Firstly, the Concorde Agreement has already expired. Secondly, all the teams benefit from the income from Official Partners under the 2013-2020 bilaterals just as they did under the Concorde Agreement (except the percentages have changed) so the expiry of the latter would not matter. Thirdly, ASM has not been disbanded.

The major error in your theory (and until there is evidence about Emirates it is no more than that) is that whilst any brand could sign up to a team, ALL teams will benefit if it becomes an Official Partner. So, in response to your initial exclamation, I bet they are chuffed.

#18 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 23:35

Depends on the nature of the deal. If it excludes other airlines from doing event sponsorships, it would block new money from coming in. And they're far more likely to get airline money for trackside stuff than team things.

Though the money on the table, representing real money, will probably not be too far behind the theoretical total. It's pragmatically unlikely that they'll get British Airways to buy a bridge at Silverstone, Delta at New Jersey, Lufthansa to back to the German Grand Prix, etc.

#19 Craigster

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 23:49

Depends on the nature of the deal. If it excludes other airlines from doing event sponsorships, it would block new money from coming in. And they're far more likely to get airline money for trackside stuff than team things.

Though the money on the table, representing real money, will probably not be too far behind the theoretical total. It's pragmatically unlikely that they'll get British Airways to buy a bridge at Silverstone, Delta at New Jersey, Lufthansa to back to the German Grand Prix, etc.

The equation is simple:
If sponsor X goes to one team then only that team benefits.
If sponsor X becomes an Official Partner then all teams share 50% of the profits

I bet the teams will be chuffed IF Emirates becomes F1's official airline and if it doesn't then this thread should be removed and should never have been started in the first place.

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#20 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 00:14

If Sponsor X goes to a team, they get 10million.

If Sponsor X goes to the series, they get about 500k each.

Great for everyone who was never going to get the sponsorship, a temper tantrum for the teams that were in the running.

#21 Fastcake

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 00:20

The equation is simple:
If sponsor X goes to one team then only that team benefits.
If sponsor X becomes an Official Partner then all teams share 50% of the profits

I bet the teams will be chuffed IF Emirates becomes F1's official airline and if it doesn't then this thread should be removed and should never have been started in the first place.


What would you rather have if you were a team? A small fraction of the money that FOM are getting, or instead all of the money for yourself? That's the point, there's very few companies willing to invest in F1 right now, and the teams are losing out.

#22 Craigster

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 00:26

If Sponsor X goes to a team, they get 10million.

If Sponsor X goes to the series, they get about 500k each.

Great for everyone who was never going to get the sponsorship, a temper tantrum for the teams that were in the running.

Who is to say that any teams are in the running? Given the risks with team sponsorship (cars crashing leading to lack of exposure) more sponsors are gravitating to series sponsorship in the current economic climate. Accordingly, the teams get 500k each when otherwise they would have got zero. That's why they will be chuffed.

Edited by Craigster, 31 January 2013 - 00:26.


#23 Risil

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 00:30

Please drop it.

#24 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 00:42

Who is to say that any teams are in the running? Given the risks with team sponsorship (cars crashing leading to lack of exposure) more sponsors are gravitating to series sponsorship in the current economic climate. Accordingly, the teams get 500k each when otherwise they would have got zero. That's why they will be chuffed.


Teams are almost always in the running. No one remembers billboards. Except when they try to hit Jean Alesi.

#25 Craigster

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 00:47

Teams are almost always in the running. No one remembers billboards. Except when they try to hit Jean Alesi.

Totally false. Take the Rolex deal - no teams were in the running at all. It was a deal which JYS took straight to BCE.

#26 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 01:23

Wow, you got me there.

#27 Craigster

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 01:37

Wow, you got me there.

The fact is that IF Emirates signs up to be an Official Partner (and this isn't all a fantasy like a Grand Prix in London or something like that) then the teams will benefit when otherwise they would not. It would take evidence that teams were pitching Emirates to disprove that because it is not the case that they are ALWAYS in the running for the Official Partners. It's no surprise that some sponsors prefer being an Official Partner than a team sponsor in the current economic climate and you can't blame them for that.

#28 pingu666

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 02:21

how good a value is a package like official partner anyways?

#29 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 05:19

Doh! You need to learn a bit more about how F1 works! The teams share 50% of the profits from F1 as prize money. If you have guessed lucky and Emirates (or any other airline for that matter) becomes an Official Partner of the Championship then all the teams will benefit from it

But then does Emirates now have the right to restrict Air Asia branding on the Caterham cars, as Sprint does in NASCAR?

#30 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 05:19

Doh! You need to learn a bit more about how F1 works! The teams share 50% of the profits from F1 as prize money. If you have guessed lucky and Emirates (or any other airline for that matter) becomes an Official Partner of the Championship then all the teams will benefit from it

But then does Emirates (or FOM) now have the right to restrict Air Asia branding on the Caterham cars and Kingfisher on Force India (if FI exists), as Sprint does for Verizon in NASCAR?

#31 noikeee

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 12:05

I imagine they don't as for F1 to agree to that they'd have known they'd be killing off 2 teams, indeed to have such a clause in the contract restricting all team sponsorships would surely ramp up the price of the deal. Which is why I don't think Ross is fully right on this:

If Sponsor X goes to a team, they get 10million.

If Sponsor X goes to the series, they get about 500k each.


I know that's a simplified example, but that's assuming the price of the series sponsorship is the same as the team sponsorships. Even without the veto-clause forbidding teams from having airline sponsors, I'd expect the series deal to be more expensive? And with the clause a hell of a lot more.

Or perhaps it forbids teams from having "official partners" but not "sponsors".

#32 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 13:05

But a team deal could also be 20-30, I was just using it as an example.

Official Whatever of F1 won't affect the teams. FedEx could sponsor one of them despite the DHL deal, but they couldn't buy any event sponsorship.

I assume existing airlines will be 'grandfathered' into any Emirates deal. Otherwise you have to send back the Gulf, Etihad, and Qantas money.

#33 Clatter

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 15:29

Clatter - you are probably thinking of DHL which is the official logistics partner but happens to own its own airline for shipping.


Your right. :up:

#34 f1fan1998

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 17:02

But then does Emirates (or FOM) now have the right to restrict Air Asia branding on the Caterham cars and Kingfisher on Force India (if FI exists), as Sprint does for Verizon in NASCAR?


No.


But a team deal could also be 20-30, I was just using it as an example.

Official Whatever of F1 won't affect the teams. FedEx could sponsor one of them despite the DHL deal, but they couldn't buy any event sponsorship.

I assume existing airlines will be 'grandfathered' into any Emirates deal. Otherwise you have to send back the Gulf, Etihad, and Qantas money.



Indeed GAC for example has done some shipping and logistics for Williams over the last few years.


Craigster - my point about the teams not liking has been taken out of context by you in the way you have interpreted it. The semantics of me writing 'teams' (plural) may mean to you that I believe the cohort of the teams e.g. the remains of FOTA are annoyed or don't like the situation. In fact to be clear - I mean that the teams as an individual entity do not like the situation. Each team is a super competitive business and that doesn't just mean on a Sunday afternoon - it extends right through to the commercial departments too. I know for a fact one team was pitching Emirates. I know for a fact that they aren't happy. It is the internal competition with FOM that the teams (individually are frustrated with.) In exactly the same way as when ING came into the sport Mclaren, Renault and Ferrari all pitched for the deal. 2 teams lost out and obviously weren't pleased as they lost. The point is all about competition. The inherent question therefore is - when in the past there hasn't been a strong battle for deals between FOM and the teams, should FOM be getting in the way now?

By the way, ref Allsport - I know they haven't been totally shut down, (I was being flippant) but the majority of the commercial operation and management is now run out of princes gate. Who is left at ASM selling anything? Only really Isabella Kaufmann selling Paddock Club (which was always the case) and Alex Molina sort of selling the trade spaces - sort of! Everyone else at ASM is an ops role. The operation as I said is in London now and run by Bernie's lawyer Kate Bevan with a helping hand from a few bods.




#35 johnmhinds

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 17:13

Seems to be a lot of unfounded speculation that no other airline will be allowed to or would want to sponsor anything in F1. Where is the evidence for that?

Deals like LG and now Rolex being the main timing sponsor hasn't stopped any of the teams from having other big watch/timing companies as sponsors.

#36 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 17:20

Well where are all the other airlines then? There actually is some truth to the urban legend that they don't want to be associated with a crashing race car. At least in one case I know that to be true.

But it's also an industry with very poor margins, so team deals are inefficient for them. Emirates follows a model similar to most airlines. They sponsor leagues or events, and associate with teams on important routes. Emirates does take it a step further with high profile team deals, but those are also tied into routes and in some cases landing fees in those cities.

#37 Tommorris747

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 17:32

No.

Indeed GAC for example has done some shipping and logistics for Williams over the last few years.


Craigster - my point about the teams not liking has been taken out of context by you in the way you have interpreted it. The semantics of me writing 'teams' (plural) may mean to you that I believe the cohort of the teams e.g. the remains of FOTA are annoyed or don't like the situation. In fact to be clear - I mean that the teams as an individual entity do not like the situation. Each team is a super competitive business and that doesn't just mean on a Sunday afternoon - it extends right through to the commercial departments too. I know for a fact one team was pitching Emirates. I know for a fact that they aren't happy. It is the internal competition with FOM that the teams (individually are frustrated with.) In exactly the same way as when ING came into the sport Mclaren, Renault and Ferrari all pitched for the deal. 2 teams lost out and obviously weren't pleased as they lost. The point is all about competition. The inherent question therefore is - when in the past there hasn't been a strong battle for deals between FOM and the teams, should FOM be getting in the way now?

By the way, ref Allsport - I know they haven't been totally shut down, (I was being flippant) but the majority of the commercial operation and management is now run out of princes gate. Who is left at ASM selling anything? Only really Isabella Kaufmann selling Paddock Club (which was always the case) and Alex Molina sort of selling the trade spaces - sort of! Everyone else at ASM is an ops role. The operation as I said is in London now and run by Bernie's lawyer Kate Bevan with a helping hand from a few bods.


Just been lurking and following this and am surprised no one has remembered that Emirates used to sponsor McLaren. It is definitely coming on board as a FOM sponsor - the VVIPs were notified earlier today. It's not true that McLaren and Ferrari pitched for ING though - MDH went straight to Renault through his local connections with the bank. Also, ASM is most certainly not shut down! Malke assures me they are still receiving cheques for the rental of the little pad ASM has in Chambésy.

#38 johnmhinds

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 17:34

Well where are all the other airlines then?


Off the top of my head, we have Air Asia, Kingfisher, Virgin, Etihad and Qantas that are involved in sponsoring F1 teams or races.

Edited by johnmhinds, 31 January 2013 - 17:35.


#39 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 17:41

Etihad and Qantas are sponsors of their home race, Air Asia and KingFisher are the CEO's pet projects. Virgin isn't really on the Marussia anymore and they didn't really involve the airline.

Korean Air was a good example, though that was part of the Hanjin sponsorship that was at Benetton/Renault for about a decade.

The big guys have never really bothered for some reason, and you'd think F1 would be ideal. I'm talking British Airways, Air France, Lufthansas, etc It's a truly global sport, has a lot of travel, a high earning fan base, lots of business networking, etc etc. You'd think JAL or AllNippon would grab Suzuka because they need to show they're the 'main' Japanese airline instead of the other guy.

Maybe it's just too expensive for the amount of new customers they'd pick up? Airline advertising is a strange one. Rather than caring about the brand, surely we pick based on the schedule/route we need and then pick the most affordable option that isn't completely shit? I basically refuse to fly RyanAir/Easyjet for instance. But flying around America? You just pick anyone.

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#40 f1fan1998

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 17:43

Just been lurking and following this and am surprised no one has remembered that Emirates used to sponsor McLaren. It is definitely coming on board as a FOM sponsor - the VVIPs were notified earlier today. It's not true that McLaren and Ferrari pitched for ING though - MDH went straight to Renault through his local connections with the bank. Also, ASM is most certainly not shut down! Malke assures me they are still receiving cheques for the rental of the little pad ASM has in Chambésy.


Mick de Haas reportedly went directly to Renault, but I know that McLaren and Ferrari also pitched. As flippant as it sounds too, I also know that McLaren turned ING away as the brand wanted an all encompassing livery which they got at Renault. McLaren as we know do not like to de-value themselves in this way.

As above, (where I explained myself in a bit more detail) I agree and indeed state that it is not shut down. I clarify that it is still operational, just that the commercial department has gone to London away from Switzerland. Especially since that chap Campbell was dispatched.

#41 johnmhinds

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 17:51

Etihad and Qantas are sponsors of their home race, Air Asia and KingFisher are the CEO's pet projects. Virgin isn't really on the Marussia anymore and they didn't really involve the airline.


Virgin didn't involve the airline? What about all the months of press F1 got from the bet Fernandes and Branson had over dressing up as a stewardess?

Posted Image

The money from AirAsia created a brand new team and the Kingfisher money has kept a dying team alive and you're complaining that no airline money is coming into F1? I'm confused. :confused:

#42 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 17:59

But that was a PR thing. I don't think Virgin Atlantic was ever on the Brawn or the Marussia/Virgin Racing. Hell I don't even think the latter got discounted flights.

Take out Fernandes and Mallya and they wouldn't be as involved. I think the previous Kingfisher appearances at Benetton were beer, though when it was on the Toyota it may have been the airline.

But as a sector the airlines have not really shown up outside the state affiliated ones (Gulf, Eithad) and owner run (Air Asia, Kingfisher). Emirates have been close a few times, including that McLaren year, but at really really low rates.

Air Canada used to have their GP, Qantas have been in and out. It does make me think it's a cost issue.

Equally the US carriers(and we have arguably the largest aviation market) have stayed out of racing domestically.

#43 johnmhinds

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 18:13

I don't know why you're dismissing all that Fernandes and Mallya airline money that is coming into the sport just because they also own the teams.
They've pumped in tens if not hundreds of millions keeping those two teams alive.

Somehow you think the money only counts if there is no other connection between the airline and the team/race they are sponsoring? What sense does that make?

I could easily make an equally dumb argument that no car manufacturer money comes into the sport if I take out all the teams that are owned by car manufacturers.

Edited by johnmhinds, 31 January 2013 - 18:16.


#44 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 18:16

I think there's a difference when the CEO of the company is directly involved in what they're sponsoring. I don't think it's good for FI's long term health, for instance, that they have very little 'outside' sponsorship.

#45 johnmhinds

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 18:26

Sure there is a difference, but it doesn't change the fact that two guys who made most of their fortunes from airlines now own two of the midpack teams and are even spending time running them as the team principals.

That isn't something that can just be dismissed as not mattering much when discussing airline sponsorship or airline money coming into F1.

How would British Airways spending £10 million to just slap a logo on a McLaren for example be more important to f1 than two guys who are actively running teams?

Edited by johnmhinds, 31 January 2013 - 18:28.


#46 Tommorris747

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 18:42

Mick de Haas reportedly went directly to Renault, but I know that McLaren and Ferrari also pitched. As flippant as it sounds too, I also know that McLaren turned ING away as the brand wanted an all encompassing livery which they got at Renault. McLaren as we know do not like to de-value themselves in this way.

As above, (where I explained myself in a bit more detail) I agree and indeed state that it is not shut down. I clarify that it is still operational, just that the commercial department has gone to London away from Switzerland. Especially since that chap Campbell was dispatched.


I KNOW MDH went directly to Renault as I'm mates with the guy who set him up with Flav. There were no formal pitches from McLaren and Ferrari. You did say that ASM had been disbanded and this is far from true! I get your point though

#47 ensign14

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 18:53

Maybe it's just too expensive for the amount of new customers they'd pick up? Airline advertising is a strange one. Rather than caring about the brand, surely we pick based on the schedule/route we need and then pick the most affordable option that isn't completely shit? I basically refuse to fly RyanAir/Easyjet for instance. But flying around America? You just pick anyone.

Could it be a fear of disaster? Someone gets killed in a JAL-liveried car and somewhere in the subconscious people think it better not to travel on a JAL plane?

#48 Clatter

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 18:58

In general have any of the major airlines sponsored sports teams? I can't remember BA every being involved in sports other than when something like the Olympics happens.

#49 Fastcake

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 20:55

Sure there is a difference, but it doesn't change the fact that two guys who made most of their fortunes from airlines now own two of the midpack teams and are even spending time running them as the team principals.

That isn't something that can just be dismissed as not mattering much when discussing airline sponsorship or airline money coming into F1.

How would British Airways spending £10 million to just slap a logo on a McLaren for example be more important to f1 than two guys who are actively running teams?


Mallya hasn't made a penny from his airline, his money has come from UB and the other alcohol businesses. I also don't think Kingfisher airlines are actually on the cars, I believe it's the beer that is being promoted.

The point is, these companies are only in the sport because their owners also control a team. It would be healthier if external companies were sponsoring teams, as it means they think F1 is good investment, not because their boss needs money to fund their hobby. Should Mallya or Fernandes pull out or sell their companies, there is really not a high chance that they will remain in the sport.

#50 JRizzle86

JRizzle86
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Posted 31 January 2013 - 20:56

Emirates did used to sponsor McLaren in 05 and 06 I seem to believe.