90 replies to this topic

[wj_gibson]

Yes, it's all a bit 1994.

[Dolph]

The sheer number of good midfeild drivers that have gone missing in 2013 has pretty much wiped out what enthusiasm I had for 2013.

Kobayashi, Glock, Kovalinen, Petrov and, earlier, Alguersuari. All seemingly out of the sport way before retirement age.

To be replaced with:

Razia, Chilton, Van Der Garde, Gutierrez, possibly Bianchi or a return of the mediocre Sutil or Senna. Who are most of these people?

Yet two drivers who were demolished by their teammates in 2012 get to stay on. Grosjean and di Resta. Has anyone ever stayed on before after losing by 111 points to their teammate and scoring less than 50% of their points?

I'm all for rookies getting a chance after a testing role, like Bottas is, but this seems like a return to the nouveau pay-drivers, where guys don't get a career but only a few seasons written out by cheque.

Well, its not like they swapped out Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel for Chilton, Van Der Garde and Co.

The guys who exited F1 have not shown to be a top 5 driver. And those guys are always at risk of being swapped down to the lower end of the grid or off the grid. Business as usual, I would say.

[Dolph]

BS.

I only remember kimi trashing him on race despite starting further down in races where he didnt retire.

Some people like to twist fact with generalization.

So that's that then, isn't it. If your memory only goes so far then everybody else are twistying facts?

[Clatter]

It was 9-9 in qualy and grosjean was caught out by rain a couple of times.Unfortunately he crashed so early we never got to see his true speed in most of his races but theres no doubt he was fast.

Well he was certainly damn quick in reaching the scene of the accident.

[Clatter]

Hulk could have stayed out at FI and let Koba stay put also, not walk into the team Koba built and reap benefits, but thts from a fans point of view i know hulk only did it for the benefit of his career and i totally respect that, will it work out? who knows.

So it's Hulk's fault and not the decision makers at the team?

[Group B]

Hulk could have stayed out at FI and let Koba stay put also, not walk into the team Koba built and reap benefits, but thts from a fans point of view i know hulk only did it for the benefit of his career and i totally respect that, will it work out? who knows.

I'm a Koba fan, but I'm not sure he 'built' Sauber; they've have several periods of decent results over the years.

[Risil]

Yes, it's all a bit 1994.

Yeah, and like 1994 it's the backmarker, soon-to-be-extinguished teams that are causing most of the trouble.

I've got to say, I'm interested to see how Gutierrez and Bianchi get on with fairly competitive machinery. You can't have rookies if you also want every talented F1 driver (which is almost all of them) to stay on until "retirement age".

Montoya was a huge loss for Formula One but being replaced by Lewis Hamilton I think we recovered quite quickly.

Edited by Risil, 03 February 2013 - 14:27.

[P123]

The sheer number of good midfeild drivers that have gone missing in 2013 has pretty much wiped out what enthusiasm I had for 2013.

Kobayashi, Glock, Kovalinen, Petrov and, earlier, Alguersuari. All seemingly out of the sport way before retirement age.

To be replaced with:

Razia, Chilton, Van Der Garde, Gutierrez, possibly Bianchi or a return of the mediocre Sutil or Senna. Who are most of these people?

Yet two drivers who were demolished by their teammates in 2012 get to stay on. Grosjean and di Resta. Has anyone ever stayed on before after losing by 111 points to their teammate and scoring less than 50% of their points?

I'm all for rookies getting a chance after a testing role, like Bottas is, but this seems like a return to the nouveau pay-drivers, where guys don't get a career but only a few seasons written out by cheque.

Good midfield drivers replaced with other possible good midfield drivers. Teams, unable to attract their own sponsorship, need money. There is nothing new there.

I'm not sure where in the world of F1 Petrov became a good midfield driver though. Your judgement of the drivers seems all over the place.

[MirNyet]

I am feeling a slightly different problem to most of what is stated here - I do not so much mind the new faces as being left with two drivers in my favourite team I really cannot be bothered with. A situation that never happened before. Its an odd one as the team is of course bigger than the drivers, but it does make for dull viewing as I am going to find it hard to be excited about either of these two doing well - but at the same time wanting a team win...

[TheUltimateWorrier]

The only one I'll really miss is Kobayashi, but I'm looking forward to seeing these new faces on the grid. Not convinced about Giedo and I won't write him off yet, but Gutierrez, Chilton and Razia seemed pretty good in GP2 last year. Don't know what to make of Bottas yet, as FP doesn't really give a glimpse what he can really do.

If anything, Glock leaving Marussia and joining the BMW's DTM team has intrigued me to watched the series. Likewise, if Kobayashi, Kovalainen and a few others joined other racing series, I'd be interested to follow them a bit more closely.

Kob was pretty average to be fair. But he did few ballsy moves and is Japanese so people automatically like him.

If anything, he did many ballsy moves. His nationality has nothing to do with his popularity, it's more to do with him being an underdog. This no-hoper in GP2 ends up dueling with soon-to-be world champion Button in his debut race and in his following seasons offers some spectacular overtakes.

[MikeTekRacing]

I feel sad for Kamui, Glock and Petrov. They were all fighters, maybe not always the fastest ones but good drivers. Kamui and Glock never actually got a chance to drive a proper car and show what they're made of.
I'd be happy for Sutil to be back though. I liked his style, he seemed really fast and impressed me a lot more than over hyped diResta. I think Sutil will be the 3rd driver (out of 3..) to beat diResta in the same car.
As for Kovalainen..he drove a race winning McLaren and chocked. I don't know if he's any good or not now but he's had his shot and he was a nobody in that team. I can't remember one great thing he did in that car....except that he didn't take a point from Lewis in 2008 thus making him wdc.

The new ones without prior F1 record have my full support. I don't care if they did anything brilliant in other series.....F1 is the place to shine, I hope they show their value.

F1 won't be the same for me this year with Michael gone but that was bound to happen, he's 44 FFS...
let the show start

[bub]

A little bit yes. Perez could have the fastest car this season while Kobayashi doesn't even have a midfield drive. Some of the new pay drivers look uninspiring but we'll see.

[Crafty]

Kamui and Glock never actually got a chance to drive a proper car and show what they're made of.

Agree on Glock, had Toyota carried on for another year his career could of been rather different.

Kamui did not make good use of the 2012 car and looked somewhat lost compared to Perez.

[noikeee]

I'm a little disappointed there's no space for the likes of Kobayashi and Glock, and that some of the new guys are really uninspiring - van der Garde and Chilton, really? - but I'm looking forward to Bottas and am cautiously curious about the ability of a Gutierrez or a Bianchi who have defrauded expectations in recent years but are still known to be quick. So whilst I do think the grid is worse for next year I have not lost enthusiasm on that front.

I am lacking enthusiasm for this season though indeed, but that's because we've had the same champion for the past 3 years, there is no major changes on the drivers for the top teams (Perez at McLaren only who I have only cautious expectations for) and I have no reasons to believe the pecking order will change at all... nothing really to do with the new drivers.

[TheUltimateWorrier]

Agree on Glock, had Toyota carried on for another year his career could of been rather different.

2009 Toyota was a good car though, especially at the start as they had advantage with the diffuser like Brawn. Trulli and Glock didn't make the most of it, so I can't agree with you there.

[Seanspeed]

Didn't pay a lot of attention to Virgin/Marussia and Caterham to begin with. They'd be one of my focuses while watching Q1, but after that, meh. Its not that I dont care, its that we get no coverage of them during the race, so I cant even begin to formulate any opinions or garner any vested interest in the teams. I can look at their finishing positions at the end of the race, but it doesn't tell me how it happened and plus the backmarkers are the ones who benefit from most any retirement in the field, so its hard to say how good they did.

Kobayashi is something that is regrettable as he was doing a competent job and I'm not sure Gutierrez is all that worthy, but we'll see. Kobayashi wasn't exactly super impressive in GP2 dont forget.

Grosjean and Di Resta did not get 'demolished' by their teammates, either. Di Resta was equally strong in the 1st half of the season while Grosjean showed to be very quick and impressive. Points dont always tell the whole story.

[gd2]

The number of driver changes does nothing for me. However I'm very disappointed to see good drivers like Petrov and Kobaybashi get replaced by completely talentless wastemen like Chilton and Van der Garde only because they are complete paydrivers.

Petrov and good in the same sentence! Unfortunately we've seen mediocre pay and young driver scheme drivers replaced with more of the same while real talent doesn't get a look in. The Super Licence is far to easy to get and it's meant a lot of under qualified drivers are getting seats they don't deserve.

[MikeTekRacing]

2009 Toyota was a good car though, especially at the start as they had advantage with the diffuser like Brawn. Trulli and Glock didn't make the most of it, so I can't agree with you there.

how do you know Toyota's potential if you think neither driver made the most out of it? How did you estimate that? Based purely on DDD?

[Victor]

with Glock gone there are just 3 german drivers left, that is why I would prefer if Force India picks Sutil,

I find it amazing that you consider as a gentleman driver a punk who stabbed a man with a glass
rolleyes:

[SealTheDiffuser]

The sheer number of good midfeild drivers that have gone missing in 2013 has pretty much wiped out what enthusiasm I had for 2013.

Kobayashi, Glock, Kovalinen, Petrov and, earlier, Alguersuari. All seemingly out of the sport way before retirement age.

To be replaced with:

Razia, Chilton, Van Der Garde, Gutierrez, possibly Bianchi or a return of the mediocre Sutil or Senna. Who are most of these people?

Yet two drivers who were demolished by their teammates in 2012 get to stay on. Grosjean and di Resta. Has anyone ever stayed on before after losing by 111 points to their teammate and scoring less than 50% of their points?

I'm all for rookies getting a chance after a testing role, like Bottas is, but this seems like a return to the nouveau pay-drivers, where guys don't get a career but only a few seasons written out by cheque.

your only point is Di Resta, the rest is rhubarb. good midfield drivers!!! what is this? Is Massa a good midfield driver? Or should he be replaced.

Kobayashi=mediocre, yet entertaining; KOV completely where? exactly, Glock= had his chance with Toyota (I know the strategy guys f-- it up (they did), Petrov ???, ALG=muahahahahaha,

Bianchi seems to be good, Razia also, van der garde maybe , a shame frijns is not there but Guitierez, and Chilton well, but hey things change... and those are mostly backmarker teams so what....

I think it will be ver y entertaining, with BOT versus MAL, GRO vs RAI, ROS vs HAM, ALO vs MAS (yes), BUT vs PER, HUL in a maybe bloody good Sauber, VET vs ALL, it will be a very exciting season, maybe the last good one for a while....

Edited by SealTheDiffuser, 03 February 2013 - 22:22.

[Longtimefan]

I liked Kamui a lot and I'll really miss him, I find it quite disgusting that crash-kid Grosjean keeps his seat when Kamui doesn't.

The main person I'll miss is Schumi, I will never forget him exploding onto the F1 scene at Spa in 1991, his first 4-5 drives made me a fan, his passion, love for the sport and work ethic made me a huge fan. F1 will not be the same without him imo, as for the newcomers, well I've yet to see anyone with any charisma or class. Time will tell but F1 won't be the same for me.

[TheUltimateWorrier]

how do you know Toyota's potential if you think neither driver made the most out of it? How did you estimate that? Based purely on DDD?

A bit like Helmut Marko declaring at one point the Sauber was THE best car in 2012, I don't truly know the potential of the car. I'm just guessing from what I saw in 2009 . The Toyota had chances to win races in 2009, but didn't. Who's to say if a top-tier driver was at Toyota they would've won races? No idea. But that's beside the point. I'm just saying, imo, Glock had a shot in a good car but didn't make the most of it.

[sopa]

People say it is disgusting Grosjean keeps his seat, but I say Maldonado was a worse than him and in this case deserves F1 drive even less. Gro 96 points last year, Mal 45. Williams was certainly a very good car and not as far behind Lotus as the points would suggest. Gro collected more than double of Maldo's points.

[SPBHM]

I think Grosjean deserves another season, he has showed great speed at least,
Maldonado is also quick and a race winner, he deserves to be in F1.

I feel a little for Kobayashi, Glock, Petrov and Kovalainen but... that's how it works, as good as they were, they probably didn't really stand out...
but yes, considering the replacements it's far from ideal.

[IMO]

So that's that then, isn't it. If your memory only goes so far then everybody else are twistying facts?

My memories serve me very well.

Even on quali stat it didn't consider kimi had gearbox failure on Malaysia gp, hydraulic failure in canada, power steering issues in monaco, pending for new upgrades where Romain got it first from valencia to hockenheim period etc

On race, except Canada (hydraulic failure) and valencia (no new updates, still less than 1 tenth behind), Kimi pretty much owned him on every races he finished.
Well, we all know what happened in Bahrain despite the team made kimi missed out Q3 while everyone was bashing kimi without knowing the reasoning behind. Thats 6 qualifying weekend in total.

Some even throw out silverstone when it was kimi that suffer with team strategy that made him run longer stint on slower compound stuck behind traffic, whereas Romain pitted for fastest tyre and running on clean air.

In Hungary despite having kers recharging issues, kimi pull out 10 sec gap to Romain on the last stint. In Abu Dhabi, the car that already lack behind the development race of front runner, i only saw kimi being faster than everyone else except lewis, Romain was nowhere near the front runner.
Explain to me, how a guy that barely had pace to compete with Kimi claimed as faster driver of the duo???

It tooks 1 race for Romain to be proven as fast driver, while it tooks forever for kimi to prove otherwise huh?

I don't deny he's fast, but faster than Kimi??

Unless you can argue with reasoning, generalization statement is for those who has no clue about what happen behind the scene.

[V8 Fireworks]

The sheer number of good midfeild drivers that have gone missing in 2013 has pretty much wiped out what enthusiasm I had for 2013.

Kobayashi, Glock, Kovalinen, Petrov and, earlier, Alguersuari. All seemingly out of the sport way before retirement age.

Midfield drivers sure are expendable aren't they?

The lucky ones like Massa, Button and Webber found a way into top team (be it a Ferrari test driver role, signing for a midpack energy drink team or a miracle wcc car from ex-Honda) and are quick enough on an inconsistent basis to not strongly justify replacement (hardly a great criteria, but there you go: "you are kept as you are not consistently slow enough to demand immediate replacement" ).

But these three could easily have been jettisoned out of f1 via a lacklustre midpack team just like Kobayashi, Glock and co...

[Music Lover]

Grosjean and Di Resta did not get 'demolished' by their teammates, either. Di Resta was equally strong in the 1st half of the season while Grosjean showed to be very quick and impressive. Points dont always tell the whole story.

Quick = agree on that, but impressive?
In what way?

Only being quick isn't enough to score points.
Impressive... quite the opposite imho.
imho there are only a few truly impressive drivers, Lewis, Kimi, Vettel and Alonso; fast + avoiding trouble bringing a LOT of points to the team.
And ALL OF THEM were impressive during their first F1 season.
I simply failed to notice anything similar in Gro.


And I predict Massa going to struggle this year as well. He isn't mentally strong, something you need with Alonso driving in same team. Deep inside himself, Massa know he isn't as fast as Alonso and that is the reason he struggle. Just look at his eyes, they lost the sparkle.

[Wander]

And I predict Massa going to struggle this year as well. He isn't mentally strong, something you need with Alonso driving in same team. Deep inside himself, Massa know he isn't as fast as Alonso and that is the reason he struggle. Just look at his eyes, they lost the sparkle.

This is off-topic, butI think I'm going to go ahead and bet against that. Massa is as fast as anyone when he has it together. I think a lot depends on how the first race goes.

[MikeTekRacing]

I find it amazing that you consider as a gentleman driver a punk who stabbed a man with a glass
rolleyes:

where does he say gentleman driver? (btw, what he does outside of the track, probably drunk should not change your rating of him as a driver).

[ivand911]

I think F1 with Heidfeld, Sutil, Glock, Kovalinen, Petrov in it will be much better. I don't expect much from new guys.

[SenorSjon]

Pay drivers have always been part of F1 so that I'm not fussed about.

Half the circuits being the same, hideously disproportionate cars, interventionist stewarding, comical tyres and faux-overtaking devices are much more enthusiasm-sapping.

Dull circuits; suffocating rules; stability of rules; aero over engine etc do it for me.

This! It seems I care less about the drivers when the package they are driving in is underwhelming for me.

I think it's a little bit ridicolous situation - the most experienced current GP drivers that DIDN'T win any GP yet drove in F1 only for TWO seasons (di Resta and Hulkenberg are tied at 39 GPs). This is one of the most inexperienced F1 fields to ever start a season I believe.

Welcome testing ban, according to some the best thing since sliced bread. I don't like it and it makes drivers quite expendable. After two-three years, the personal sponsors give way and then the next paying driver steps in. Teams are complaining about the cash needed, but they are happy to drain it from their drivers if possible.

[Music Lover]

This is off-topic, butI think I'm going to go ahead and bet against that. Massa is as fast as anyone when he has it together. I think a lot depends on how the first race goes.

Sorry for OT but this is evidence of his current ability. If he indeed is unaffected of the race outcome but sadly he isn't going to be.
I want Massa doing well as Gro, but they both going to have a difficult journey. Even if they start well, a few mistakes & bad races later on and they going to suffer mentally.

Again sorry for OT, my last post i this matter.

Back to topic I think Glock should have a run in a better team. Kova got his chance but failed in Mac.
Would have been interesting to replace Button and Webber with Glock Di Resta or Koba.

[karne]

I'm going to miss Kovalainen, Petrov, Glock, Kobayashi, and Senna if he does not get the seat at Force India. All very good drivers, some never given a real chance, some with circumstances beyond their control.

I don't miss Sutil. He ****ed himself over when he chose to physically assault somebody. IMO, his career is finished, and good riddance. If he's that hot-tempered and bitter that he will glass a man, what would he do on track if another driver made him really angry?

As for this lot of paydrivers on the grid, some of them are just dangerous. Maldonado could have killed someone last year. Grosjean was just stupid. I don't like the look of half these rookies - I mean, Chilton only got into various categories because Daddy bought him a team in them!

[autosportfan]

I'm going to miss Kovalainen, Petrov, Glock, Kobayashi, and Senna if he does not get the seat at Force India. All very good drivers, some never given a real chance, some with circumstances beyond their control.

I don't miss Sutil. He ****ed himself over when he chose to physically assault somebody. IMO, his career is finished, and good riddance. If he's that hot-tempered and bitter that he will glass a man, what would he do on track if another driver made him really angry?

As for this lot of paydrivers on the grid, some of them are just dangerous. Maldonado could have killed someone last year. Grosjean was just stupid. I don't like the look of half these rookies - I mean, Chilton only got into various categories because Daddy bought him a team in them!

Agree, I wonder what Olympics would be like if you could not take part unless you could bring in sponsor money...

[ExFlagMan]

It's very interesting how the perceptions of driver pairings performances on this board differ from the actual figures.
According to some posters DiResta, Senna and Kobyashi get classified with Grosjean as being 'destroyed' by their tream mates.
The actual percentages of points of the lower driver against the higher in each team pairing are as follows.

99% Button
91% Kobyashi
73% Di Resta
68% Senna
64% Webber
63% Riciardo
53% Schumacher
46% Grosjean
44% Massa

I realise the truth hurts but 'wake and smell the cocoa' to quote Gene Hunt

[Rentta]

Hamilton is apparently going to miss kovalainen and so do i. I'm also going to miss glock. They are both good solid drivers.

http://www.f1fanatic...ovalainen-seat/

Edited by Rentta, 04 February 2013 - 19:45.

[garoidb]

It's very interesting how the perceptions of driver pairings performances on this board differ from the actual figures.
According to some posters DiResta, Senna and Kobyashi get classified with Grosjean as being 'destroyed' by their tream mates.
The actual percentages of points of the lower driver against the higher in each team pairing are as follows.

99% Button
91% Kobyashi
73% Di Resta
68% Senna
64% Webber
63% Riciardo
53% Schumacher
46% Grosjean
44% Massa

I realise the truth hurts but 'wake and smell the cocoa' to quote Gene Hunt

While taking your point to some extent, these percentages do not reflect the relative quality of the higher scoring team-mates. Maybe scoring 64% of Vettel's points in a Red Bull is better than scoring 68% of Maldonado's points in a Williams, and so forth.

[Jimisgod]

I still can't see how anyone can think of Grosjean as fast. He scored 46% of the points of Kimi, who was on his first year back in the sport after a two year break. Schumacher fans used that 'comeback' excuse to justify Michael's mediocre performance for 3 years, surely it ought to apply to Kimi also?

Kimi wasn't at 100% at the start of the year and thus Grosjean had a few days where he looked good... when not crashing. Unlike Michael, most of Romain's bad luck was self inflicted. Once Kimi was settled in, he swept Romain into the dust and scored a win. The Lotus was goddamn fast for the first half of the year but when things settled, only Kimi was delivering.

Just looking at that, why isn't Rosberg regarded as one of the very best in the series since he outclassed the previous best driver for 3 years straight during his comeback?

As for Massa and Webber, Massa certainly deserved to be swapped into a midfield team for someone else.

Edited by Jimisgod, 04 February 2013 - 20:42.

[Spillage]

The sheer number of good midfeild drivers that have gone missing in 2013 has pretty much wiped out what enthusiasm I had for 2013.

Kobayashi, Glock, Kovalinen, Petrov and, earlier, Alguersuari. All seemingly out of the sport way before retirement age.

To be replaced with:

Razia, Chilton, Van Der Garde, Gutierrez, possibly Bianchi or a return of the mediocre Sutil or Senna. Who are most of these people?

Yet two drivers who were demolished by their teammates in 2012 get to stay on. Grosjean and di Resta. Has anyone ever stayed on before after losing by 111 points to their teammate and scoring less than 50% of their points?

I'm all for rookies getting a chance after a testing role, like Bottas is, but this seems like a return to the nouveau pay-drivers, where guys don't get a career but only a few seasons written out by cheque.

I wouldn't call Sutil worse than any of the outgoing midfield drivers you list. The other four/five incoming drivers are rookies. Give them a chance.

[Music Lover]

As for Massa and Webber, Massa certainly deserved to be swapped into a midfield team for someone else.

Same with Webber imho, 64% of Vettel's points is simply VERY bad, given that he drove the best car.
It's clear that RB only keep him to be a good #2 in the team, not being a threat to Vettel.

[DarioAndretti]

lot of rookies and lot of relatively inexperienced drivers in the field plus maldonado and grosjean. I expect few huge 1st corner pileups and crashfests