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Jerez Test - 5-8 February 2013


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#1551 MinT

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 14:33

Based on that:

- Soft = +0.0s
- Medium = +0.6s
- Hard = +0.2s

And if we are to say, for sake of argument that the track gets two tenths faster, per day, then:

01 - 1:17.679 - Felipe Masa (Ferrari) -> Day 3, -0.2s [1 day diff]
02 - 1:17.818 - Romain Grosjean (Lotus) -> Day 2, -0.4s [2 day diff]
03 - 1:17.966 - Nico Rosberg (Mercedes) -> Day 3, -0.8s [1 day diff; tyre diff]
04 - 1:18.061 - Jenson Button (McLaren) -> Day 1, -0.8s [3 day diff; tyre diff]
05 - 1:18.134 - Daniel Ricciardo (Toro Ross) -> Day 2, -1.0s [2 day diff; tyre diff]
06 - 1:18.148 - Kimi Raikkonen (Lotus) -> Day 4, no time change
07 - 1:18.175 - Jules Bianchi (Force India) -> Day 4, no time change
08 - 1:18.252 - Sebastian Vettel (Red Bull) -> Day 3, -0.8s [1 day diff; tyre diff]
09 - 1:18.509 - Mark Webber (Red Bull) -> Day 1, -1.2s [3 day diff; tyre diff]
10 - 1:18.603 - Paul di Resta (Force India) -> Day 2, -0.4s [2 day diff]

So say with Webber, he set 1:19.709 on Day 1 on the hard tyre.
- 0.6 seconds for tyre difference = 1:19.109
- 0.6 seconds for day different (0.2 x 3) = 1:18.509

Obviously times are fuel load dependent too, but interesting nevertheless.


Academic I know anyway - but why does webber get -1.2 knocked off for a Day1 hard tyre run - but Button gets -.8 for the same thing ?

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#1552 hijinx

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 14:37

Italian? :drunk:
It's Spanish :)

PS. There is a very easy trick to distinguish Italian from Spanish (and Portugese) for people who don't speak Romanic languages: Italians don't do plurals with 's' and, therefore, there are few words ending with 's'. in short, 'vueltas', 'tandas', 'largas' and 'segundos' can't be Italian.

for a moment there, I thought I read ROMANTIC languages :blush:

#1553 karlth

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 14:50

The qualifying difference between the top 4-5 cars might well be less than 0.5s in Melbourne. What has been the most reliable indicator of performance is the ontrack observation of a veteran F1 driver and unofficial leaks from within the teams.

#1554 bauss

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 17:23

And Gazzetta dello Sport reported that Vettel had about 60kg of fuel when he did his best time (1:18.565)

http://www.gazzetta....201072539.shtml

In Jerez 10kg of fuel is worth 0.4s.

Difference between 60kg and qualy car (a little less than 7.5kg (?) of fuel with in and out lap) is worth more than two seconds in Jerez.


I don't believe that.... when he had a stint with 1:24s how much kilos of fuel did he have then, 200kg or more?....which is impossible...

#1555 Anderis

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 17:31

This is what always makes me wonder. There are always some news that during testing some teams run no lower than xx kg of fuel. Is it really possible they never check how the car works when it is on fumes? And is it possible when best times done during testing in Bacelona are around as good as pole in Spanish GP later in the year?

I think all teams try to run in qualifying trim at some point of testing.

#1556 Crossmax

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 17:34

They might of course run low fuel, but maybe combined with used tires to hold back the ultimate pace of the car.

#1557 bourbon

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 17:38

This is what always makes me wonder. There are always some news that during testing some teams run no lower than xx kg of fuel. Is it really possible they never check how the car works when it is on fumes? And is it possible when best times done during testing in Bacelona are around as good as pole in Spanish GP later in the year?

I think all teams try to run in qualifying trim at some point of testing.


I'm sure they do, but at what speed? At which test?

#1558 kedia990

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 17:39

I don't believe that.... when he had a stint with 1:24s how much kilos of fuel did he have then, 200kg or more?....which is impossible...


I'm not saying I believe the original claim, but along with fuel and tyres, there are various other factors, such as the fuel/air mix (running on a lower setting significantly impacts laptime), DRS & KERS use etc.

Just one thing I wanna note here: people generally make statements like 10kg of fuel is worth 0.4s, which seems fine on the face of it, but is the relation between fuel load and laptime even linear? I'd think that at extremely high fuel levels, the amount of instability and unpredictability created by the quantity of fuel would be much higher than say on half or quarter tank, so the graph won't be linear. Can anyone just help me out on this?

#1559 ApexMouse

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 17:39

This is what always makes me wonder. There are always some news that during testing some teams run no lower than xx kg of fuel. Is it really possible they never check how the car works when it is on fumes? And is it possible when best times done during testing in Bacelona are around as good as pole in Spanish GP later in the year?

I think all teams try to run in qualifying trim at some point of testing.


Red Bull haven't for a few years. Ferrari didn't in 2010. As to the pole time, They can use supersoft for a hotlap in testing, at the race weekend they only have soft or medium.

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#1560 olliek88

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 17:40

They might of course run low fuel, but maybe combined with used tires to hold back the ultimate pace of the car.


Why would they do that? Teams don't do stuff to "sandbag" or "hold back" they only do stuff in testing that they can learn from, in what conditions are they going to use low fuel and used tyres?

"Sandbagging" is a something from the past, with testing so limited now teams can't afford to "hold back" for the sake of it, they need to use every KM available to learn, not waste time doing pointless runs.

#1561 race addicted

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 18:02

Red Bull haven't for a few years. Ferrari didn't in 2010. As to the pole time, They can use supersoft for a hotlap in testing, at the race weekend they only have soft or medium.


True. I remember from when DC was active, he said during all his years at McLaren, he'd only done a low fuel run a couple of times, and that the norm was to work with a set load, do 8-10 laps, then come in, report back, do a few tweaks, then top the car up again to the same level and do another run.
While at Red Bull, he only once did a Q-sim, and that was during pre-season testing in 2006. Mateschitz came to visit that day....

#1562 ApexMouse

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 18:20

A good little video of the different cars, at different points on the track. My appleogies if its been posted already.

Bam bambambam

#1563 RedF1

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 18:30

Ted's notebook

http://www1.skysport...o/12870/8482681



Thanks a lot! ...Vettel interview; I am no fan of SV, but his english is really really good. I remember few years ago, he sounded very german, now he's almost perfect. :up:

#1564 jjcale

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 18:35

A good little video of the different cars, at different points on the track. My appleogies if its been posted already.

Bam bambambam


Thanks.

Has anybody seen any vids this year by Yossidlr?

He for the past few years he has uploaded some good testing foooting .... but nothing on youtube so far this year. Is he on another platform, maybe?

#1565 SCUDmissile

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 18:37

They might go hard on low fuel for one sector, then back off for the rest of the lap.

#1566 BernieEc

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 19:35

some nice footage of cars in Jerez day 4.......enjoy



#1567 OSX

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 19:40

What We Learnt from the Jerez Test
9 February 2013

Posted Image

So who has the upper hand after the first test of the winter?

A team-by-team review of the first test of the winter...

http://www1.skysport...-the-Jerez-Test


#1568 ApexMouse

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 19:48

Nice of sky to make their analysis available along with the other free content on the site.

It would be quite the dick move to put paid content the top story position, that has been free for many years. Wouldn't it.

#1569 study

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 19:50

What We Learnt from the Jerez Test
9 February 2013

Posted Image

So who has the upper hand after the first test of the winter?

A team-by-team review of the first test of the winter...

http://www1.skysport...-the-Jerez-Test


The people who write the review, does anyone know their background that their views should be taken as gospel?

#1570 SCUDmissile

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 20:17

The people who write the review, does anyone know their background that their views should be taken as gospel?

In a word: No.
One of them at least is Planet F1's finest. Autosport it isn't.
Take it with a pinch of salt.

#1571 rhukkas

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 20:52

Nice of sky to make their analysis available along with the other free content on the site.

It would be quite the dick move to put paid content the top story position, that has been free for many years. Wouldn't it.


You are British no? Get a free forum, grade a news, and yet STILL moan when the site owners have the audacity to try and make a little money!!

#1572 superdelphinus

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 21:16

Nice of sky to make their analysis available along with the other free content on the site.

It would be quite the dick move to put paid content the top story position, that has been free for many years. Wouldn't it.


Yeah, lucky for them they bleed other people dry so they are able to do that though...

#1573 KiloWatt

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 17:10

I hope the mods dont mind my asking bluntly, bit did anyone read the Autosport+ article " What we learned from Jerez Formula 1 testing"?

I'd like to find out if its worth the purchase? As in, is there anything new or interesting in there that we dont know already?

#1574 ApexMouse

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 17:22

You are British no? Get a free forum, grade a news, and yet STILL moan when the site owners have the audacity to try and make a little money!!

The forum is free for all nationalities.
I do not complain about the quality of AS's news. I subscribe to their print edition and have done for many years.
I have no problem with the monetization of the site (story limit) or the owners trying to make money. They've had plenty of mine through the subscription.
My gripe was with them rather cheaply sticking paid content in the regular news sections. They have a huge great PLUS FEATURES sidebar on the site for that very reason, where all the other paid digital content is. Anyway, it is hardly a point of discussion, and miles Off-Topic anyway (apologies for that, Mods). Let us move on from my petty sniping.

#1575 olliek88

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 17:26

I hope the mods dont mind my asking bluntly, bit did anyone read the Autosport+ article " What we learned from Jerez Formula 1 testing"?

I'd like to find out if its worth the purchase? As in, is there anything new or interesting in there that we dont know already?


Its a nice thing to have and read but like every article around testing at the moment its pretty much pure conjecture, nobody knows with any accuracy who's where. Invariably anything that has conclusive evidence on where everyone stacks up will work its way onto the forums/twitter-sphere anyway.

Its a good read though!

#1576 Timstr11

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 17:26

I hope the mods dont mind my asking bluntly, bit did anyone read the Autosport+ article " What we learned from Jerez Formula 1 testing"?

I'd like to find out if its worth the purchase? As in, is there anything new or interesting in there that we dont know already?

Not at all worth it in my opinion. Not read anything really interesting. The only snippet that I found interesting is about Sauber's sidepods, which do seem to work in that there are no cooling problems, but some engineers think it might limit airflow acceleration and this limits downforce. For the rest it's mostly guesswork and conjecture.

Edited by Timstr11, 10 February 2013 - 17:28.


#1577 Szoelloe

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 17:27

I hope the mods dont mind my asking bluntly, bit did anyone read the Autosport+ article " What we learned from Jerez Formula 1 testing"?

I'd like to find out if its worth the purchase? As in, is there anything new or interesting in there that we dont know already?


Generally, one article is not worth the purchase. I mean the 1 EUR deal. The subscription is worth it though. For instance, You can't really get hold of the Scarbs tech analysis on some of the teams, only in the + section. its only published there initially, AFAIK. Don't expect too much as of now though, its very early in the season, and the delicacies are yet to come.


#1578 goingthedistance

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 17:28

I hope the mods dont mind my asking bluntly, bit did anyone read the Autosport+ article " What we learned from Jerez Formula 1 testing"?

I'd like to find out if its worth the purchase? As in, is there anything new or interesting in there that we dont know already?


The article you quote doesn't add much, in my opinion. "Jerez test: The final trackside verdict" was a much more interesting read, with a good description of how most of the different cars were taking Turn 8 at Jerez. I'm not sure how much we are allowed to summarise such articles, but the author seemed to think McLaren was a shade ahead of the rest based on observation. There is a fair bit of detail for most teams. Nothing particularly groundbreaking though. I was interested to read that at Jerez there was only 0.6 of a second between the hard and the soft compound, less than the 1 second Pirelli are aiming for, but that may be a characteristic of the abrasive Jerez surface.

#1579 ApexMouse

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 18:46

Yes, I think I read on the BBC feed that The hard was .4 faster than medium at jerez.

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#1580 Szoelloe

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 18:48

Yes, I think I read on the BBC feed that The hard was .4 faster than medium at jerez.


On a long stint. edit: long(ish)

Edited by Szoelloe, 10 February 2013 - 18:50.


#1581 sopa

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 18:53

Of course we don't know exact ranking of cars, but the general consensus (?) seems to be that McLaren, Red Bull, Lotus and Ferrari are all pretty close anyway. It will depend on track, chance and circumstances, who will get podiums. And in-season development, who will get podiums in the second half of the season. Barcelona is already a different track, so maybe the order will be somewhat different.

But who knows, maybe someone brings big upgrades and edges ahead. Remember last year at Suzuka Red Bull stunned the field by suddenly dominating after what had been a close season.

#1582 pinkypants

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 19:07

I think Brundle said on twitter than testing was looking more like 2009 for Jenson.

#1583 olliek88

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 19:14

Of course we don't know exact ranking of cars, but the general consensus (?) seems to be that McLaren, Red Bull, Lotus and Ferrari are all pretty close anyway. It will depend on track, chance and circumstances, who will get podiums. And in-season development, who will get podiums in the second half of the season. Barcelona is already a different track, so maybe the order will be somewhat different.

But who knows, maybe someone brings big upgrades and edges ahead. Remember last year at Suzuka Red Bull stunned the field by suddenly dominating after what had been a close season.


The same caveats of we don't actually know anything but from what has been said Merc appear to have made a step forward, whether its enough to join the front runners is a whole different matter!!

#1584 Szoelloe

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 19:17

I think Brundle said on twitter than testing was looking more like 2009 for Jenson.

That is a little harsh to conclude. Brawn joined for the last test sessions only, by the time basically every team was performance testing.


#1585 KiloWatt

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 20:16

...


...


...


...


Thank you gentlemen, I appreciate the advice!
:up:

Edited by KiloWatt, 10 February 2013 - 20:17.


#1586 CHIUNDA

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:52

Can somebody explain why Massa's 2013 car which should be at least a second faster than the 2012 cars following a whole year's development, posted the test's fastest lap that was 0.2 seconds slower than Nico Rosberg's 2012 Mercedes at the same tests last year. The rules are stable so the cars should not be that fundamentally different. The tyres are supposed to be faster, right? I was expecting a lap in the 1:16s? Or is this so called development race not worth the amount of hype the media makes of it?

#1587 SCUDmissile

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 13:00

Can somebody explain why Massa's 2013 car which should be at least a second faster than the 2012 cars following a whole year's development, posted the test's fastest lap that was 0.2 seconds slower than Nico Rosberg's 2012 Mercedes at the same tests last year. The rules are stable so the cars should not be that fundamentally different. The tyres are supposed to be faster, right? I was expecting a lap in the 1:16s? Or is this so called development race not worth the amount of hype the media makes of it?

Nico Rosberg's Merc was a fully developed W02. Felipe's F138 was a brand new car which was just launched, going along with all the other cars. That is the only explanation I can think of.

#1588 matthewf1

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 13:00

Can somebody explain why Massa's 2013 car which should be at least a second faster than the 2012 cars following a whole year's development, posted the test's fastest lap that was 0.2 seconds slower than Nico Rosberg's 2012 Mercedes at the same tests last year. The rules are stable so the cars should not be that fundamentally different. The tyres are supposed to be faster, right? I was expecting a lap in the 1:16s? Or is this so called development race not worth the amount of hype the media makes of it?


Merc used their 2011 car in jerez last year, complete with blown diffuser

#1589 noikeee

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 13:59

Also track conditions change daily, it will make the track quicker or slower sometimes by a full second, it's almost pointless to compare times with a year of difference really.

#1590 ViMaMo

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 14:32

The people who write the review, does anyone know their background that their views should be taken as gospel?



The stage is thus set for Alonso - who played a blinder in skipping Jerez while his subordinates did all the donkey work - to find out just how quick the car is in Barcelona when its performance capabilities will be fully explored.


Good to know that the writer is humorous. :up: :p

#1591 swifteddie1

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 23:17

Can somebody explain why Massa's 2013 car which should be at least a second faster than the 2012 cars following a whole year's development, posted the test's fastest lap that was 0.2 seconds slower than Nico Rosberg's 2012 Mercedes at the same tests last year. The rules are stable so the cars should not be that fundamentally different. The tyres are supposed to be faster, right? I was expecting a lap in the 1:16s? Or is this so called development race not worth the amount of hype the media makes of it?

Last year they could use DRS anywhere on the track, but for this test they were only allowed to use it on the front and back straights i believe.

#1592 vas04614

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:50

Not sure if anyone has posted but this is analysis of BBC's Gary Anderson of jerez Lap Times. Interesting article but Red bull is 5th which is for sure not correct.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/21417831

Edited by vas04614, 12 February 2013 - 04:29.


#1593 Markn93

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 05:19

Great video -

#1594 Shiroo

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 05:28

Not sure if anyone has posted but this is analysis of BBC's Gary Anderson of jerez Lap Times. Interesting article but Red bull is 5th which is for sure not correct.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/21417831

It isn't interesting. It is plain stupid, and in general Gary Anderson's analyzes are as good as mine, he is even more unbiased than British media towards Paul di Resta, his analyzes about F1 are on par with Peter Winsdor and his "YY can go into corner with 40RPM MOAR than X", though Winsdor at least, is saying that he can hear it (or frickin see it, I don't know how, maybe every team is giving him telemetry), while GA is like HERP DERP IT IS LIKE THAT.


I can't wait for more brilliant analyzes from GA. Simply can't

Posted Image

Edited by Shiroo, 12 February 2013 - 05:29.


#1595 vas04614

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 05:43

It isn't interesting. It is plain stupid, and in general Gary Anderson's analyzes are as good as mine, he is even more unbiased than British media towards Paul di Resta, his analyzes about F1 are on par with Peter Winsdor and his "YY can go into corner with 40RPM MOAR than X", though Winsdor at least, is saying that he can hear it (or frickin see it, I don't know how, maybe every team is giving him telemetry), while GA is like HERP DERP IT IS LIKE THAT.


I can't wait for more brilliant analyzes from GA. Simply can't

Posted Image


Guess, have to accept as he was the one who said Red Bull has 10% more downforce than others. Wonder when he wakes up everyday forgets what he had said the previous day!

#1596 Testarossa2012

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 06:29

I was in Jerez, the last day. I could shot tons of photos

Here you have a comparison of the main teams front wings

Edited by Testarossa2012, 12 February 2013 - 08:02.


#1597 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:10

Also track conditions change daily, it will make the track quicker or slower sometimes by a full second, it's almost pointless to compare times with a year of difference really.


And Pirelli had their press release stating that the Jerez surface has deteriorated massively since last year.

#1598 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 14:48

Great video -

Yes it is. Thanks :up:

#1599 Torsion

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 15:36

Not sure if anyone has posted but this is analysis of BBC's Gary Anderson of jerez Lap Times. Interesting article but Red bull is 5th which is for sure not correct.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/21417831



What surprises me most is that he has completely disregarded the different tire compounds on which different lap times were done on.

Edited by Torsion, 12 February 2013 - 15:37.


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#1600 rhukkas

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 15:47

Great video -


McLaren looks fantastic, as does RBR. Ferrari, with PDR at least, looked not great. Mercedes looked heavy on fuel, but nothing TOO drastically wrong apart from lack of DF. Marussia, obviously, looked a mess. Torro Rosso didn't look great and neither did Force India to be honest.

Note: BBC you do not have permission to use this as high-level technical analysis... as I guess on their current form they probably would.

Edited by rhukkas, 12 February 2013 - 15:47.