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Rumour: McLaren has bought Cosworth [split]


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#101 10e10

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:05

Ferrari have been fine with that. The advantages of bringing the engines in-house would probably negate any disadvantages.


Like being the factory team, and knowing the developments needed in house for car-engine combination.

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#102 MirNyet

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:10

Like being the factory team, and knowing the developments needed in house for car-engine combination.


Also, knowing that a third party cannot just take your engine supply away seemingly overnight. This is a path McLaren really should have gone down many years ago. They obviously share this viewpoint otherwise they would have outsourced the engines in their roadcars.

If they haven't bought Cosworth yet, I can seriously see this happening as the upsides are just too good. While the Cosworth engines were not the best, they were not that far from it - Also - with the new regs - if they come to the party a year or so late - they have that additional year or so of materials, knowledge and development over the locked engines.

#103 10e10

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:19

Also, knowing that a third party cannot just take your engine supply away seemingly overnight. This is a path McLaren really should have gone down many years ago. They obviously share this viewpoint otherwise they would have outsourced the engines in their roadcars.

If they haven't bought Cosworth yet, I can seriously see this happening as the upsides are just too good. While the Cosworth engines were not the best, they were not that far from it - Also - with the new regs - if they come to the party a year or so late - they have that additional year or so of materials, knowledge and development over the locked engines.


The down side is the amount of cash to be spent in a single operation.

#104 MirNyet

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:22

The down side is the amount of cash to be spent in a single operation.


McLaren is cash rich at the moment - the amount of money they have spent on the production building for the road cars show's that. Also, in the medium to long term there are savings to be made having engine design and building onsite. They must have a big hole in the main building now that the road cars are next door. Buying Cosworth would mean they could bring all of that equipment and IP in house.

#105 oetzi

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:31

Ferrari have been fine with that.

Which makes it an even bigger risk.

#106 10e10

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:40

McLaren is cash rich at the moment - the amount of money they have spent on the production building for the road cars show's that. Also, in the medium to long term there are savings to be made having engine design and building onsite. They must have a big hole in the main building now that the road cars are next door. Buying Cosworth would mean they could bring all of that equipment and IP in house.


That's one possibility. They could do a Ilmor/Mercedes with Honda, where Honda gives the cash and some brain power and rebrands the engines.


#107 MirNyet

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:50

That's one possibility. They could do a Ilmor/Mercedes with Honda, where Honda gives the cash and some brain power and rebrands the engines.


But that's not really what Ron Dennis is doing at the moment - the engines in the road cars are called McLaren - with the road cars, he needs an image as close to Ferrari as possible and having another car company on the F1 cars works against this. Every interview you see him at is about the McLaren brand. Having a McLaren that is pure McLaren is worth its weight in gold for the road car image - tying up with another car company dilutes that.

Also - Honda would cause image problems, their road cars are seen as old people wagons, their last F1 try was a farce - they are not good adverts in F1 right now.



#108 BoschKurve

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:52

:rotfl: True intellectuals I presume...


Ah have some fun man!

Nothing like a pint or 5 before those conversations! :lol:

#109 Rob

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 13:09

Which makes it an even bigger risk.

Only if you're consistently making duds. We took the mick out of Ferrari in 1996 for their exploding engines but it didn't harm their reputation.

#110 One

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 13:10

The down side is the amount of cash to be spent in a single operation.

:up:

#111 Talisman

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 13:16

McLaren having to find a further 15 million euros (£12m) per annum for the engine and KERS power-boost package to compete in Formula One.

Since McLaren is already a huge motorsport supplyer - ECUs to F1 and NASCAR - maybe it is better to buy Cosworth and sell complete engines.

Mercedes might have created a monster here, since McLaren can snatch customers from them in the future.

The divorce transformed a partner into a bitter competitor. :kiss:


The mathematics simply doesn't make sense here.

I agree a customer engine deal will cost about £12 million per year.

Now if McLaren becomes an engine supplier by buying Cosworth they'll have to fund the design and manufacture of a new engine according to the new regulations. This will cost in the region of £100 million. Redesigning the engine for a major new regulation change will cost somewhere in that region every time it happens which at current rates is probably once or twice a decade.

They cannot simply make that money back by passing it onto customer teams since engine deals are fixed at pretty low rates relative to manufacturing costs. Companies like Renault etc can write off those huge sums of money as part of their marketing spend but a small company like McLaren cannot.

They also run the risk of being liable for Cosworth's fixed costs if the engine project doesn't work out, and being at the mercy of the FIA which could bankrupt their operation if Max Mosley style biannual regulations changes come back again.

As for other formulae, Dallara's success and Lola's failure has shown that what you need to get is an exclusive deal to supply an entire formula if you want to make a profit. The only alternative is to design and build mass-market based dirt cheap low tech engines for a low price for non-spec series such as F3 with low margins to boot.

If McLaren are genuinely interested in buying Cosworth I would have thought it would be for their roadcar division or expanding into defence, not for F1.

#112 V3TT3L

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 14:40

The mathematics simply doesn't make sense here.

I agree a customer engine deal will cost about £12 million per year.

Now if McLaren becomes an engine supplier by buying Cosworth they'll have to fund the design and manufacture of a new engine according to the new regulations. This will cost in the region of £100 million. Redesigning the engine for a major new regulation change will cost somewhere in that region every time it happens which at current rates is probably once or twice a decade.

They cannot simply make that money back by passing it onto customer teams since engine deals are fixed at pretty low rates relative to manufacturing costs. Companies like Renault etc can write off those huge sums of money as part of their marketing spend but a small company like McLaren cannot.

They also run the risk of being liable for Cosworth's fixed costs if the engine project doesn't work out, and being at the mercy of the FIA which could bankrupt their operation if Max Mosley style biannual regulations changes come back again.

Mclaren can sell their turbo engines for F1 and LeMans.

Think about paying engines forever. Ten years would give you £120 million.
Maybe it is better to start/buy your own company and create VALUE.

I think McLaren is looking for going solo here. There were rumous about PURE, Honda and now Cossie.

Edited by V3TT3L, 08 February 2013 - 14:41.


#113 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 15:31

You'll spend a lot more than 120m in ten years of engine development.

#114 V3TT3L

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 15:44

You'll spend a lot more than 120m in ten years of engine development.

Its not COST = 120m

Its REVENUE - COST = 120m

#115 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:01

Eh? You'd be lucky to have revenues of 120m. Your costs would be at least that.

#116 V3TT3L

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:12

Eh? You'd be lucky to have revenues of 120m. Your costs would be at least that.

In McLaren we trust  ;)


#117 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:24

I find math more reliable.

#118 TheNewStig

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:43

McLaren+Cosworth=Honda?

#119 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:48

It's not Honda's style.

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#120 One

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:52

Its not COST = 120m

Its REVENUE - COST = 120m

SOME TEAMS JUST GO BUSTED.

#121 juicy sushi

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 17:01

I think the Cosworth thing is interesting, but does it make sense for McLaren? In the sort term, I don't think so. The key area of development on the new motors will be KERS and energy recovery from turbo-compounding. I don't know for sure, but I am fairly certain that is outside Cosworth's areas of competence. As such, buying Cosworth doesn't present a net gain for Mclaren in terms of buying Cosworth to build their own F1 engines. It could help on the road car side perhaps, or in a GT program, but not for F1.

I could see McLaren attempting to go their own way on the engine front, but I think that Ron would be looking very hard at whether or not it would provide enough added value in terms of marketing for the road cars, and potential sales to other teams, before he would go down that road. He is quite unsentimental on this kind of matter, and I can easily see him thinking that it wouldn't be worth the bother (as the current F1 team isn't suffering for using a Mercedes motor and it isn't hurting the marketing of the road cars).

I think though that unless another manufacturer were to offer a factory deal to McLaren, or if Ricardo were to offer to partner on an F1 engine project (and showed the necessary resources to do it properly), McLaren will continue to run Mercedes-Benz motors for the forseeable future.

We should also remember the end of the ICE engine is on the horizon. Building up an expertise in something which has a limited future may not make sense for McLaren when they could be trying to get ahead of the curve on what comes after that.

Edited by juicy sushi, 08 February 2013 - 17:03.


#122 pup

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 17:15

Four pages about McLaren buying Cosworth, all based on a single one-line tweet saying that they're not. :lol:

#123 Sakae

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 17:18

Rumour has it, that some people are trying to kill the new engine project as "non-representative of F1 image".

#124 pristineaudio

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 17:38

A couple of years ago a friend inside McLaren with direct access to the very top told me they were planning to take engines in house for F1. If this is the outcome of that plan then it comes as no surprise. The initial plan was apparently with 2014 changes firmly in mind, but also with the expectation of not renewing with Mercedes when their contract expired.

#125 r4mses

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 17:43

Will Cosworth even stay for 2014 and beyond? I've no clue about engine development, but I guess <12 months won't be enought to build an F1 engine from scratch.

#126 maverick69

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 17:47

Will Cosworth even stay for 2014 and beyond? I've no clue about engine development, but I guess <12 months won't be enought to build an F1 engine from scratch.


From last October: "We've been working on the engine for 18 months."

http://www.auto123.c...ne?artid=148375

#127 muramasa

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 19:25

Also - Honda would cause image problems, their road cars are seen as old people wagons, their last F1 try was a farce - they are not good adverts in F1 right now.


wut



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#128 V3TT3L

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 19:42

Honda is best prepared team to join F1 under new regulations.

> Indy V-6 Twin Turbo 2.2cc.
> LeMans LM P2 V-8 twin Turbo 3.4cc


Mercedes has no tradition on small cc turbos, except the Sauber's Silver Arrows.
So maybe it is not the best choice for 2014 onwards.

#129 Fatgadget

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 20:58

You could have said the same about McLaren in 1981...

Except I didnt ! Your analogy is way off tangent mate. McLaren buying Cosworth today is daftness personified. ..Eh, didnt Ron Dennis the big cheese at Macca recently say 'money is tight these days'?..reason why they let Lewis go to Mercedes??


#130 MirNyet

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 21:42

wut


To your McLaren MP4/12C buyer, or even your average person on the street - Honda makes old people wagons. Very few people outside of places like this if the name Honda was mentioned would think of the images you supplied.

#131 Talisman

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 21:47

To your McLaren MP4/12C buyer, or even your average person on the street - Honda makes old people wagons. Very few people outside of places like this if the name Honda was mentioned would think of the images you supplied.


Depends on the market entirely.

Honda has a sporting image in several markets like the us and japan while in Europe its image is more sedate, but even there Honda is under pressure from its dealer network to raise its motorsport profile again, which was the main driver behind its new wtcc effort.

All McLaren needs to do to convince buyers of the McLaren Honda heritage is have a few strategically placed photos of a certain A. Senna in his prime.

#132 10e10

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 22:01

wut



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You forgot the Indycar engines.  ;)

#133 Anonymous

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 22:02

Eh, didnt Ron Dennis the big cheese at Macca recently say 'money is tight these days'?

reason why they let Lewis go to Mercedes??


It's obvious why he said that. And no, not at all.

#134 MirNyet

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 22:19

Depends on the market entirely.

Honda has a sporting image in several markets like the us and japan while in Europe its image is more sedate, but even there Honda is under pressure from its dealer network to raise its motorsport profile again, which was the main driver behind its new wtcc effort.

All McLaren needs to do to convince buyers of the McLaren Honda heritage is have a few strategically placed photos of a certain A. Senna in his prime.


Well, perhaps, but personally speaking no - Honda's are what you buy when you have too, not if you have a choice. Their recent F1 effort was horrible, their current street car range is poor - engine wise, their last F1 engine was shocking, sounded like a broken bag of hammers going past. If you want to base the worth of Honda only based on its now distant past - then Cosworth beats them hands down anyway.

McLaren buying Cosworth should be looked at firstly as feeding their road cars, with an F1 program as a spin off to lock down the long term future of the racing team. In this, it makes perfect sense.



#135 oetzi

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 22:33

It's obvious why he said that.

Because it's true?

Or are you accusing Ron of dissimulation?

#136 EvanRainer

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 22:41

OK, I'll agree that probably the name Honda won't conjure up a racing image in most people's minds.

But "old people's wagons" ?? Isn't that a bit ridiculous? Where do you live?? The first thing that comes to mind when hearing "Honda" (other than bikes of course) is: "Type-R".

#137 oetzi

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 23:01

OK, I'll agree that probably the name Honda won't conjure up a racing image in most people's minds.

But "old people's wagons" ?? Isn't that a bit ridiculous? Where do you live?? The first thing that comes to mind when hearing "Honda" (other than bikes of course) is: "Type-R".

Civic.

That's Honda (cars).

Civic.


#138 loki

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 00:54

Honda is using racing as a marketing platform in the US. They use Indycar, ALMS, have a club sportscar support program and are big in the tuner car and drifting realms. There is a huge aftermarket, particularly for Civics and Honda have had varying success with the S2000 and sister line Acura NSX. They stopped NSX production for a while but are bringing it back.


#139 PassWind

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 01:21

Cosworth also has a lot of experience in small capacity turbo engines, the 2.0l four in the Sierra Cosworths was a beast of an engine.

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#140 Victor_RO

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 04:09

Honda is best prepared team to join F1 under new regulations.

> Indy V-6 Twin Turbo 2.2cc.
> LeMans LM P2 V-8 twin Turbo 3.4cc


Mercedes has no tradition on small cc turbos, except the Sauber's Silver Arrows.
So maybe it is not the best choice for 2014 onwards.


You've got your engines mixed up there for the LMP cars, Honda have two separate engines: a 3.4 naturally-aspirated V8 for LMP1 and a low-boost stock-block twin-turbo 2.8 V6 for LMP2.

#141 V3TT3L

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 04:46

You've got your engines mixed up there for the LMP cars, Honda have two separate engines: a 3.4 naturally-aspirated V8 for LMP1 and a low-boost stock-block twin-turbo 2.8 V6 for LMP2.

Well... I took the info from a site.

Anyway, Honda is running Turbo Engines for years already.
They just need to build a 1.6cc V-6 with their current technology and adapt KERS.

Cossie would consume more time and money to make their version.

#142 klyster

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 09:38

OK, I'll agree that probably the name Honda won't conjure up a racing image in most people's minds.

But "old people's wagons" ?? Isn't that a bit ridiculous? Where do you live?? The first thing that comes to mind when hearing "Honda" (other than bikes of course) is: "Type-R".



Honda should conjure racing though, they were in F1 a long time before many of the current teams and then there's the motorcycle division, the Honda/BAR F1 team of a few years ago, McLaren powered by Honda, Ayrton used to endorse Honda NSX, and yeah, Type-R for sure.

On the Cosworth thing, good on McLaren if they do acquire part or the whole thing.

#143 muramasa

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 13:10

To your McLaren MP4/12C buyer, or even your average person on the street - Honda makes old people wagons. Very few people outside of places like this if the name Honda was mentioned would think of the images you supplied.


hm





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#144 pinkypants

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 13:22

To your McLaren MP4/12C buyer, or even your average person on the street - Honda makes old people wagons. Very few people outside of places like this if the name Honda was mentioned would think of the images you supplied.


:up: :up: :up: :up:

I don't know anyone who aspires to buy a honda.. they all want mercedes, bmws, minis and range rovers!

Honda's are traditionally for a lot of people a 'sensible' choice or an uninspired old people car :p

Yes Honda has been successful in motorsport but I really don't think that's translated into a better brand image for their mass consumer cars.

Edited by pinkypants, 09 February 2013 - 13:24.


#145 One

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 16:37

hm





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Honda rules!







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#146 Jimisgod

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 21:17

You people are all too British. The Honda is for old people cliche only exists in Britain.

The rest of the world thinks of the Civic as one of those tuner cars and Honda as a Japanese brand that produces cars a few steps cooler than Toyota. Toyota make white goods, Honda, Nissan and Subaru make cars. Yes it isn't as cool as a Mercedes, Ferrari or BMW - but it's cooler than Renault.

#147 MirNyet

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 22:10

You people are all too British. The Honda is for old people cliche only exists in Britain.

The rest of the world thinks of the Civic as one of those tuner cars and Honda as a Japanese brand that produces cars a few steps cooler than Toyota. Toyota make white goods, Honda, Nissan and Subaru make cars. Yes it isn't as cool as a Mercedes, Ferrari or BMW - but it's cooler than Renault.


Perhaps, but again, to your average MP4/12C buyer - Honda's are not cool... Besides, seriously, after Honda's last efforts, do you really want them back? Are peoples memories really that short?

A McLaren, not a McLaren Mercedes, or a McLaren Honda - just McLaren - now that would be cool. For that reason, I would love to hear that they had bought Cosworth and were making their own engine tech in house.



#148 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 22:51

Average MP4-12C buyer. Heh. Lot of those in this thread.

#149 scheivlak

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 22:55

Average MP4-12C buyer. Heh. Lot of those in this thread.

:D :up:

#150 Absulute

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 22:59

I'm one, I just haven't fully secured financing.