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Dark Horse for 2013?


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#101 hansmann

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 09:37

He is not a rookie


Semantics really, but I consider anyone a rookie who hasn't been driving for several seasons .
Maldo, Hulk, Grosjean, Perez etc ., all rookies in my book .

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#102 Beamer

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 10:29

Semantics really, but I consider anyone a rookie who hasn't been driving for several seasons .
Maldo, Hulk, Grosjean, Perez etc ., all rookies in my book .


Well, that makes you the only person using that book....

#103 metz

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 17:09

Semantics really, but I consider anyone a rookie who hasn't been driving for several seasons .
Maldo, Hulk, Grosjean, Perez etc ., all rookies in my book .

Wow! You had a rookie finish 3rd last year!

#104 motorhead

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 17:33

Dark horse
Maldo or Gro
Hopefully Bottas will surprise even more

Team "Dark Horse"
Williams I hope! I don´t know who could earn it more than that old petrol head!

#105 Mauseri

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 01:03

Williams. Second year with the new technical team that has already propelled them forward and potentially their strongest driver line-up since Webber/Rosberg.

Bottas is a rookie and Maldonado has a tendency of going backward in the races in case he does not crash while doing that.

I would say Hamilton in the Mercedes, but then again everyone expects podiums and maybe wins from him.

Grosjean has a good chance to improve from last year. Speed he has and I don't see second year being worse than first.

The title is likely between Alonso and Vettel though. McLaren bots are strong too but they are not dark horses either, unless they really dominate.

Edited by Mauseri, 22 February 2013 - 01:04.


#106 paulogman

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 04:49

maldonado, bottas and williams will deliver

#107 Kingshark

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:40

Bottas is a rookie and Maldonado has a tendency of going backward in the races in case he does not crash while doing that.

When? He doesn't particularly strike me as a Trulli.

In Singapore he made a mistake on the first lap, but then was able to match the race leaders in pace.
In Abu Dhabi his KERS failed, but still finished 5th.

#108 Mauseri

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 09:51

When? He doesn't particularly strike me as a Trulli.

In Singapore he made a mistake on the first lap, but then was able to match the race leaders in pace.
In Abu Dhabi his KERS failed, but still finished 5th.

I don't have statistics to support my claim but that's the overall impression I got last year. I'm not talking about a few exceptional races but the tendency.
At least his qualifying was better than what he showed in the races.

Edited by Mauseri, 22 February 2013 - 09:51.


#109 Anderis

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 10:18

Maldonado has a tendency of going backward in the races in case he does not crash while doing that.

There was no such tendency.
Australia: qualified 8th, crashed from 6th last lap.
Malaysia: qualified 11th, enginge failure from 10th at the end of the race.
China: qualified 13th, finished 8th.
Bahrain: started from 21th, was running 8th when punctured.
Spain: from 1st to 1st.
Monaco: crashed lap 1.
Canada: started from 22th, finished 13th but anihilated Senna in race pace.
Valencia: started from 3rd, crashed fighting for 3rd with big pace advantage over Hamilton 2 laps to go.
Great Britain: started from 7th, was running no lower than 7th until pitted and crashed.
Germany: running damaged car for majority of the race, so it shouldn't count.
Hungary: actually gone backward due to poor start. Couldn't regain the lost ground due to characteristic of the circuit.
Belgium: crashed twice at the beginning of the race.
Monza: started 22th, finished 11th despite puncture during the race.
Singapore: Lost 2 places just after start but then kept the pace of fronturrens. Most likely would end up 3rd after start from 2nd if not his misfortune (4th if not misfortune of Hamilton).
Japan: from 12th to 8th.
Korea: from 15th to 14th struggling with poor car.
India: started 9th, punctured fighting for 10th.
Abu Dhabi: started 3rd, finished 5th, but would most likely keep his place inside top3 if not KERS failure.
USA: started 9th, finished 9th.
Brazil: started 16th, crashed from 9th.

That means he had 3 races about which we can say he gone backwards:
Hungary: poor start and inability to regain the lost ground due to the track.
Singapore: not a good start but he was still in the mix with frontrunners throughout the race.
India: simillar story to Hungary.

Don't think he has an issue with going backwards. He is an exceptional qualifier, but when he was starting from very low grid position, he was usually gaining much during the race and being much faster than Senna.

#110 Music Lover

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:54

maldonado, bottas and williams will deliver

I hope so too!

Williams is an old fine team.

Talking about rookies - Bottas is one and of all rookies, he is likely to score most points.
He drives (what it seems) a decent car, did a good job 2012 as test driver (FP1 driver) and the team is a proven champion winning team.

#111 hansmann

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:53

Wow! You had a rookie finish 3rd last year!


I had a rookie winning the WDC !
Young Vettel's not a veteran ! ;)

#112 hansmann

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 13:02

Williams is an old fine team.


Agreed; I have high hopes for Williams, and it was great to see them getting back on track in 2012 - no pun intended .
It's a bit OT, but I wished Kobayashi and Petrov were around this season, fun to watch and always good for surprises .

Speaking of have-beens, Sutil still might get a seat, that's a dark horse right there ! ;)

#113 Shiroo

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 13:46

Agreed; I have high hopes for Williams, and it was great to see them getting back on track in 2012 - no pun intended .
It's a bit OT, but I wished Kobayashi and Petrov were around this season, fun to watch and always good for surprises .

Speaking of have-beens, Sutil still might get a seat, that's a dark horse right there ! ;)

THIS +1

#114 Burtros

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 16:41

Hulkenberg in the Sauber. We hear a lot about it being a great chassis - well heres a known good driver so lets see what could happen
Bottas - Williams tech team coming together, could be the next big thing. It'll be interesting to see how that turns out.
Grosjean - I promise you, if this kid can keep it on the track and out of other peoples cars, he is the fastest man in F1. So much promise wasted in 2012.

#115 Ramses1348

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 17:49

So yes, if he can get his racecraft sorted out and stop making silly errors, I don't see why he can't give Kimi a run for his money.


If you had been that balanced the first time around nobody would have complained IMHO. Using words like gro "humiliated" rai at some times just makes you sound like an idiot fanboy. As idiot as those you are crusading against...

My answer to the thread now: I vote for hulkenberg mixing up with the big boys.

#116 Kingshark

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 18:59

If you had been that balanced the first time around nobody would have complained IMHO. Using words like gro "humiliated" rai at some times just makes you sound like an idiot fanboy. As idiot as those you are crusading against...

You answered your own question.

Regarding the fanboy comment, see my new sig! :wave:

Edited by Kingshark, 23 February 2013 - 18:08.


#117 Skinnyguy

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 19:11

You answered your own question.


There´s no questions in that post. He´s stating that your first post on the matter was rubbish and far from any real event, while your second one is perfectly sensible and fairly close to reality.

And your answer bolding a part of the first one, still trying to sell a ridiculous and fictional point tells a lot about where you stand in this.

#118 BackOnTop

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 03:43

You do realize that Grosjean came extremely close to being Lotus' first race winner in Valencia before his car conked out, right?

Its your opinion, but I dont feel its very well founded. Its not a bunch of nonsense that a lot of people are tipping him for good things this year. Most people recognize talent when they see it. For some reason, you cant.


Even with Vettel's retirement from the lead, Grosjean was still far from winning Valencia. Fernando Alonso was legitimately in front, and showed ample experience & race pace during his last stint to remain in front. Grosjean may have tried to overtake, but it's 100% incorrect to assume Alonso would have been overtaken.

As for Lotus:-
-The first possible Win= Bahrain with Kimi Raikkonen (Team kept Kimi behind Grosjean for 4 laps, ignoring faster driver, different Tyre Strategy)
-The second possible win= Barcelona with Kimi Raikkonen (Strategy missed by team, prolonging final stop by 10 laps )
-The third possible win= Valencia with Grosjean & Raikkonen (Grosjean got overtaken by Alonso, Kimi got overtaken by Hamilton at SC restart)
-The fourth possible win= Hungary with Kimi Raikkonen (Notorious circuit for overtaking)

Ofcourse it's not a bunch of nonsense for tipping Grosjean for good things this year. He has good pace in qualifying, but lacks consistent race pace. He might improve overall.

Edited by BackOnTop, 23 February 2013 - 07:53.


#119 Skinnyguy

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 15:09

Even with Vettel's retirement from the lead, Grosjean was still far from winning Valencia. Fernando Alonso was legitimately in front...


I had forgot that pass!! That move was an INMENSE pass from Alonso. Sure, Lotus lacked grip on restarts, but you need total bravery to try that route, with the wall on the outside of the first corner giving you no mercy if you lock the front tyres. Alonso was flawless overall that day, but for me that was surely the highlight of the race easily :up:

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#120 Kingshark

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 18:14

There´s no questions in that post. He´s stating that your first post on the matter was rubbish and far from any real event, while your second one is perfectly sensible and fairly close to reality.

And your answer bolding a part of the first one, still trying to sell a ridiculous and fictional point tells a lot about where you stand in this.

Sorry for my forgetfulness to enable my signature before posting.

Nevertheless, he posted.

If you had been that balanced the first time around nobody would have complained IMHO. Using words like gro "humiliated" rai at some times just makes you sound like an idiot fanboy. As idiot as those you are crusading against...

My sig writes:

People who keep bringing the phrase "fanboy" in to an argument to force their point remind me of most homophobics.

They keep harping on about the sanctimonity of it all..... But deep down they fancy a bit of willy.......

Now you better see where I'm coming from.

Regarding my comment about Grosjean humiliating Raikkonen. This is not a fanboy comment. There were certain occasions where this held true. Australia qualifying, European GP, Singapore and Japan qualifying. I'm not denying the fact that Raikkonen was undoubtedly the better Lotus driver of 2012, but there were occasions where Grosjean made him look very poor.

Secondly, why the hell is everyone naming Lotus as a dark horse, when so many people tip Kimi for the 2012 championship? Those two are quite contradictory.

Edited by Kingshark, 23 February 2013 - 18:14.


#121 Gag Bueno

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 19:43

Maybe there will be no dark horse, but Hülkenberg / Sauber and perhaps the Williams drivers could get unexpected good results IMO.

And regarding some comments of some Ferrari fans...

Regarding my comment about Grosjean humiliating Raikkonen. This is not a fanboy comment. There were certain occasions where this held true. Australia qualifying, European GP, Singapore and Japan qualifying. I'm not denying the fact that Raikkonen was undoubtedly the better Lotus driver of 2012, but there were occasions where Grosjean made him look very poor.


Would it be right to say that Massa humiliated Alonso in Italy (I also prefer to ignore mech problems and/or team timing mistakes analyzing it :lol: ), USA and Brazil qualifyings, making him look very poor? The very similar time gaps seem to indicate it...



#122 Skinnyguy

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 00:23

Regarding my comment about Grosjean humiliating Raikkonen. This is not a fanboy comment. There were certain occasions where this held true. Australia qualifying, European GP, Singapore and Japan qualifying.


You´re either a fanboy, or poor at English. Just in case it´s the second, the word you´re looking for is "outperforming". :wave:



#123 BackOnTop

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 05:58

Regarding my comment about Grosjean humiliating Raikkonen. This is not a fanboy comment. There were certain occasions where this held true. Australia qualifying, European GP, Singapore and Japan qualifying. I'm not denying the fact that Raikkonen was undoubtedly the better Lotus driver of 2012, but there were occasions where Grosjean made him look very poor

Secondly, why the hell is everyone naming Lotus as a dark horse, when so many people tip Kimi for the 2012 championship? Those two are quite contradictory.

:rolleyes:

That's nitpicking a drivers season with specific nano-seconds, pessimistic opinion to say he got humiliated.

Edited by BackOnTop, 24 February 2013 - 07:37.


#124 2ms

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 07:05

Guys let's not let this become a Resentment-Toward and Defense-Of Kimi thread...

I can somehow see Williams being the Cinderella story of 2013. Not to the extent that they will win championships. But to the extent that they'll show the clearly greatest improvement across a couple seasons of any team in F1.

I otherwise expect the season to be the same as any other -- primarily a contest of who has the most money, with a slight edge being with the team with the most talented designer.