37 replies to this topic

[Pullman99]

Knowing that there are a significant number of enthusiasts for older road cars on this Forum, a month or so ago, on the Worlwide BMC Owners thread, I posted an item about a Morris Minor that had been stolen from its elderly owner's garage. Now there are several reports from around the various marque clubs that classics are being targeted purely for vandalism. The attached link gives details of attacks on two Ford Consul Classics, one a two-door, the other a Capri and both, apparently, advertised on an internet website at the same time. Very sad to hear of this sort of thing and clearly the owners are mystified as to the motive.

Ford Consul Capri attack

Meanwhile, the AROnline site has highlighted the current UK government moves to improve policing of scrap dealers when it comes to disposal of vehicles.

"Scrap Metal Dealers Bill" passed

Edited by Pullman99, 16 February 2013 - 14:09.

[Paul Parker]

Knowing that there are a significant number of enthusiasts for older road cars on this Forum, a month or so ago, on the Worlwide BMC Owners thread, I posted an item about a Morris Minor that had been stolen from its elderly owner's garage. Now there are several reports from around the various marque clubs that classics are being targeted purely for vandalism. The attached link gives details of attacks on two Ford Consul Classics, one a two-door, the other a Capri and botyh, apparently, advertised on an internet website at the same time. Very sad to hear of this sort of thing and clearly the owners are mystified as to the motive.

Ford Consul Capri attack

Meanwhile, the AROnline site has highlighted the current UK government moves to improve policing of scrap dealers when it comes to disposal of vehicles.

"Scrap Metal Dealers Bill" passed

No doubt this will annoy some and leave me open to ridicule but this might be worth considering.

It is my impression, gathered from personal experience and various online and media commentary, that there is growing hostility, encouraged and motivated by political malevolence, to what has become known as the 'baby boomer generation' in Britain. This is now a perjorative term that infers that those born post WW2 are responsible for our current economic woes because they have used up all the economic resources, housing, pension funds etc., etc. Perhaps this has spread, by association, to the products of that age.

Whatever the reason I hope that such incidents will not increase in number and my sympathies for anyone who has their pride and joy and familiar possessions vandalised or stolen by such morons.

[Bloggsworth]

The politics of envy - Make the people who might vote for you envious of those who don't, thereby creating a sense of both resentment and entitlement.

[Paul Parker]

The politics of envy - Make the people who might vote for you envious of those who don't, thereby creating a sense of both resentment and entitlement.

The usual modus operandi of a particular political philosophy and I'm always surprised that so many still do not realise or recognise the cultural and social manipulation that is being used.

Another facet of this mindset is the eco fascist approach as in all private transport is morally wrong, especially old/fast/exotic/individual cars and motorcycles, all property is theft and so on ad nauseam.

[Pullman99]

Another facet of this mindset is the eco fascist approach as in all private transport is morally wrong, especially old/fast/exotic/individual cars and motorcycles, all property is theft and so on ad nauseam.

There may very well be some elements of those groups who resent ownership and use of older or sporting machinery but I do not believe that generally such "eco fascists" would resort to torching the likes of Ford Capris. Even so, in the transport industry in which I work, I frequently come across such people who, as users of public transport. can become exceedingly abusive when things go wrong. An instance being when rail replacement coaches and buses replace train services - either in emergency as has happened frequently during this winter or during scheduled engineeriung work - and they find that bicycles may only be carried on road vehicles if there is storage provision for them. One recent incident I witnessed was of a cyclist who only used his bike within a city area during the day electing, when first refused travel, to wait for a whole hour for a following bus to take the bike even though his journey was only 4 miles!

I do, however, believe that the main cause of classic vehicle theft - and especially, it would seem, of early Minis at the moment - is quick cash through selling their components. The actual scrappage element may, therefore, be quite low although the redundant metal would need to be disposed of somehow. I understand from other sources that the Middle East is currently the destination for many stolen vehicles (either whole or dismantled) from the UK and including those over 20 years old. The government's recent Bill may help close a few loopholes within the scrap metal industry but I think that this issue will continue to be of major concern for some time.

[Paul Parker]

There may very well be some elements of those groups who resent ownership and use of older or sporting machinery but I do not believe that generally such "eco fascists" would resort to torching the likes of Ford Capris. Even so, in the transport industry in which I work, I frequently come across such people who, as users of public transport. can become exceedingly abusive when things go wrong. An instance being when rail replacement coaches and buses replace train services - either in emergency as has happened frequently during this winter or during scheduled engineeriung work - and they find that bicycles may only be carried on road vehicles if there is storage provision for them. One recent incident I witnessed was of a cyclist who only used his bike within a city area during the day electing, when first refused travel, to wait for a whole hour for a following bus to take the bike even though his journey was only 4 miles!

I do, however, believe that the main cause of classic vehicle theft - and especially, it would seem, of early Minis at the moment - is quick cash through selling their components. The actual scrappage element may, therefore, be quite low although the redundant metal would need to be disposed of somehow. I understand from other sources that the Middle East is currently the destination for many stolen vehicles (either whole or dismantled) from the UK and including those over 20 years old. The government's recent Bill may help close a few loopholes within the scrap metal industry but I think that this issue will continue to be of major concern for some time.

I agree although the market value of 30-50 year old volume production cars and their components is surely not very high, with exception, and in my former experience with an XK120, repro parts for all manner of things, are available, again with exception. I understand that the exporting of stolen vehicles market is aimed at those who want 'high end' motors in places where the origins of said cars attract no official interest.

You must forgive my cynicism, based upon the world as I know it but there really is a level of actual focused hatred that has been created to cause division and dissent amongst us, de facto uninformed perceptions driven by prejudice and misinformation.

[Dipster]

I agree although the market value of 30-50 year old volume production cars and their components is surely not very high, with exception, and in my former experience with an XK120, repro parts for all manner of things, are available, again with exception. I understand that the exporting of stolen vehicles market is aimed at those who want 'high end' motors in places where the origins of said cars attract no official interest.

You must forgive my cynicism, based upon the world as I know it but there really is a level of actual focused hatred that has been created to cause division and dissent amongst us, de facto uninformed perceptions driven by prejudice and misinformation.

I think that vandalism is a difficult thing to explain simply as envy in every case. Regrettably I think some people simply enjoy damaging and destroying.

But the theft of vehicles, other than for joy riding or use as transport in a crime, is simply for profit. During the last year or so Land Rover Defenders have been systematically targetted in the UK by thieves. They are broken down for spares. The UK police are doing a lot to try to stop this as it has become a serious problem.

When you hear of some classic car parts being very rare, and thus very, very expensive (even for mass produced cars), it is easy to think that some people might actualy be stealing particular vehicles to get parts for their own, similar, cherished car. It happens in the art world - people who wish to own a paricular painting will have it stolen and then keep it for themselves to enjoy. I think this happens wth cars too, but mostly it is the parts that thieves are after.

[Paul Parker]

I think that vandalism is a difficult thing to explain simply as envy in every case. Regrettably I think some people simply enjoy damaging and destroying.

But the theft of vehicles, other than for joy riding or use as transport in a crime, is simply for profit. During the last year or so Land Rover Defenders have been systematically targetted in the UK by thieves. They are broken down for spares. The UK police are doing a lot to try to stop this as it has become a serious problem.

When you hear of some classic car parts being very rare, and thus very, very expensive (even for mass produced cars), it is easy to think that some people might actualy be stealing particular vehicles to get parts for their own, similar, cherished car. It happens in the art world - people who wish to own a paricular painting will have it stolen and then keep it for themselves to enjoy. I think this happens wth cars too, but mostly it is the parts that thieves are after.

Again I would agree, in this case the Defender is a specialist vehicle and much sought after but my comments were aimed at the vandalism brigade who in my experience are usually motivated by envy and malice toward both the object and the owner.

[Doug Nye]

Back in the '80s my missis bought an ageing, highish mileage but well maintained black Porsche 924. It cost less than a younger VW Golf hatchback and wasn't anywhere near as quick. She loved it, but did complain ruefully of being left for dead in a straight line by Vauxhalls and the like. It was a handsome car, until one day she returned to it, parked by the roadside, to find its radio aerial tied in a knot, and numerous deep gouges nose to tail on the kerb side of the bodywork, clean through the otherwise pristine paintwork. Some ---- had attacked it not because of what it was, but because of what that ---- believed it represented. Yet did not. It's impossible to legislate against such actions.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 20 February 2013 - 09:31.

[Odseybod]

I suspect there arer two strands to this:

1. The mindless hooligan who enjoys breaking something, especially if it's old - possibly inspired by Clarkson & Co on TG, though have to say their latest series has not been guilty of this (so far), whatever its other faults.

2. The relative ease of stealing a pre-1990(ish) car, made before electronic immobilisers became a standard fit. Brute force and higgorance will soon overcome a mechanical immobiliser, such as a steering lock (even my first Saab 900 was unable to resist, once its gearlever surround had been wrenched off). But an electronic thingummy takes a little more time and trouble, so the bar stewards concentrate on softer targets. Once they have them mobile, it's down to the individual whether they're driven away to be broken down for parts, or just thrashed around a piece of waste ground then torched for a bit of 'fun'.

Of course, there are also Doug's idiots who attacked his wife's 924, but they're on a different mission that prevents them distinguishing between a 30-year-old car and a new one - all that matters to them is the villified badge.

[E1pix]

1. I agree and can't imagine such entertainment does anything good for those of easy and sleazy influence.

2. Not convinced it'll make a difference, but we're soon living on the road awhile in likely a pre-1990 car. I plan to make a cool logo of a made-up security brand and stick decals on the vehicle. Something like "armed with Securi-Cam motion-sensitive satellite video" might just do the trick.

Edited by E1pix, 20 February 2013 - 10:30.

[275 GTB-4]

1. I agree and can't imagine such entertainment does anything good for those of easy and sleazy influence.

2. Not convinced it'll make a difference, but we're soon living on the road awhile in likely a pre-1990 car. I plan to make a cool logo of a made-up security brand and stick decals on the vehicle. Something like "armed with Securi-Cam motion-sensitive satellite video" might just do the trick.

Good way to invite Tossers to just stand back out of sight and pelt it with rocks, bottles, paint, paint remover, brake fluid, whatever...possibly under their hoodies or umbrellas!

[E1pix]

Yeah you might have a point...

Maybe "armed with Invisi-Shield force field grenade launcher" then.

[JacnGille]

Yeah you might have a point...

Maybe "armed with Invisi-Shield force field grenade launcher" then.

Three words: Romulan cloaking device.

[D-Type]

If a car has an electric fuel pump, a useful add-on is a simple on/off switch. Chummy can hotwire the car and drive it away but when the float chamber is empty it will stop. The odds are this will be somewhere public so hopefully our friend will then simply leg it without stopping to vandalise the car.

[Vitesse2]

If a car has an electric fuel pump, a useful add-on is a simple on/off switch. Chummy can hotwire the car and drive it away but when the float chamber is empty it will stop. The odds are this will be somewhere public so hopefully our friend will then simply leg it without stopping to vandalise the car.

Traffic warden then slaps a ticket on it for obstruction and calls for someone to hoist it on the back of a truck and dump it in a police compound. To avoid paying enormous charge to reclaim his property owner then has to persuade police that it really was stolen and he didn't just abandon it in the street when it broke down ...

Cynical? Who? Me?

[RS2000]

With an injection car, the fuel pump cut out should stop it from starting at all. Combine that cut out with a coil cut out. (Owner of GTE version of a Mk2 Astra, once voted the easiest car to steal).

Mind you, on a holiday in Spain some years ago, I had to imobilise a hired Fiesta which had our luggage in the back. Easy, thought I, Kent Crossflow. Except I couldn't understand any of the electrics on the "Valencia" version of the engine...

[LotusElise]

Quite a few years back now, someone smashed the window of my Wolseley Hornet while it was parked up, awaiting being moved to a garage for repairs. Nothing was taken from the car, and no attempt was made to force the doors, open the bonnet or start it up. Whoever did it just did it for the sake of damaging something. The police weren't really interested, even when I found airgun ammo inside the car which might have been used to smash the window.

I'm not a baby boomer, the Hornet is not especially valuable and it is hardly a gas-guzzling eco-crime. In fact, it is a highly fuel-efficient car and made largely of recycled materials! I think it was just that it stood out, and thugs don't tend to like things that stand out.

[GMACKIE]

Also a few years back, a chap near us had his Rolls Royce vandalised. A tin of paint stripper was poured over it, from front to back.

When Steve went to the police, he told them he knew who the culprit was, and gave them his address. "Did you actually see him do it?" they asked. He told them that he did not, but if they went 'round to confront him, he may admit to it. "Sorry, but unless there is a witness, we can't help you". They did nothing!

Although it cost him a few hundred, Steve had the 'gentleman' 'taken care of' by some other 'gentlemen', who specialize in alternative justice. I'm certain the vandal will think very carefully about carrying out any such action ever again. [Not that I condone taking the Law into your own hands ].

[LotusElise]

My window was repaired fairly easily, but it wasn't really the actual damage to the car that upset me, it was the erosion of my peace of mind that really got to me. I felt less safe and that bit less able to trust others.

[Tony Matthews]

I left the sunroof of my Sierra Cosworth in the just-open position outside my house once, as it was a very hot day. When I drove it later, I had gone about twenty yards when I felt a very sharp sting in my right buttock. Thinking I'd sat on a wasp, I stopped for a look, and found a cigarette end that some nice, considerate person had shared by pushing it through the gap in the roof. It only melted a small dent in the velour, but it was a hint...

You never seem to catch these people in the act, it is very frustrating.

[275 GTB-4]

Yeah you might have a point...

Maybe "armed with Invisi-Shield force field grenade launcher" then.

NOW ya talking Willis!! .....ohhh, but there may be some collateral damage

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 20 February 2013 - 23:51.

[RCH]

I'm told the device of choice in South Africa is a sort of flame thrower mounted under the car....

[E1pix]

NOW ya talking Willis!! .....ohhh, but there may be some collateral damage

Thought it would be a cleaner solution than Guillotine Security Systems.

I'm told the device of choice in South Africa is a sort of flame thrower mounted under the car....

That ain't bad... sort of an "undercarriage to undercarriage" kinda thing.

[BRG]

I'm told the device of choice in South Africa is a sort of flame thrower mounted under the car....

Yes, well, life is tough down there. Just going to the toilet at night can get you shot dead.

[kayemod]

Yes, well, life is tough down there. Just going to the toilet at night can get you shot dead.

What's the betting he stumps up enough Rand to buy his way out of it, either that or he does a runner.

[Mallory Dan]

What's the betting he stumps up enough Rand to buy his way out of it, either that or he does a runner.

Whole case reminds me of the OJ Simpson thing. It'll be a Celebrity thing that the media will keep running for months, keep filing their expenses claims, and Oscar'll get off with. I'm sure he's guilty, but as said, good Lawyers can get nearly anyone off.

[Sharman]

Whole case reminds me of the OJ Simpson thing. It'll be a Celebrity thing that the media will keep running for months, keep filing their expenses claims, and Oscar'll get off with. I'm sure he's guilty, but as said, good Lawyers can get nearly anyone off.

Alternatively they can and do swear black is white, and ALL lawyers are on the same side. Theirs.

[GMACKIE]

Alternatively they can and do swear black is white, and ALL lawyers are on the same side. Theirs.

And look what they've done to motor sport.....and just about everything else. People are constantly scared of losing their house in some court case.

[Lee Nicolle]

I suspect there arer two strands to this:

1. The mindless hooligan who enjoys breaking something, especially if it's old - possibly inspired by Clarkson & Co on TG, though have to say their latest series has not been guilty of this (so far), whatever its other faults.

2. The relative ease of stealing a pre-1990(ish) car, made before electronic immobilisers became a standard fit. Brute force and higgorance will soon overcome a mechanical immobiliser, such as a steering lock (even my first Saab 900 was unable to resist, once its gearlever surround had been wrenched off). But an electronic thingummy takes a little more time and trouble, so the bar stewards concentrate on softer targets. Once they have them mobile, it's down to the individual whether they're driven away to be broken down for parts, or just thrashed around a piece of waste ground then torched for a bit of 'fun'.

Of course, there are also Doug's idiots who attacked his wife's 924, but they're on a different mission that prevents them distinguishing between a 30-year-old car and a new one - all that matters to them is the villified badge.

Thousands of these immobilised cars are stolen every day, any feral it seems knows how to bypass the immobilisers. And hundreds of immobilised cars stop their owners from using them every day!
I have learnt a few tricks to make them go again on popular makes, though it has generally cost me an auto elec visit the first time.
One model will not start if you take the interior light fuse out!! Something I did [and often do] after shampooing seats and carpets

[E1pix]

...People are constantly scared of losing their house in some court case.

It happens, and is to us right now (from both medical and legal malpractice).

Shakespeare's quote is brilliant and quite before its time.

[Odseybod]

Thousands of these immobilised cars are stolen every day, any feral it seems knows how to bypass the immobilisers. And hundreds of immobilised cars stop their owners from using them every day!
I have learnt a few tricks to make them go again on popular makes, though it has generally cost me an auto elec visit the first time.
One model will not start if you take the interior light fuse out!! Something I did [and often do] after shampooing seats and carpets

Lee, I'm certainly not saying an immobiliser makes a car immune to theft - just less likely to be a victim, compared to one too old to have such an inbuilt complication to frustrate the casual hooligan.

[D-Type]

That's what I was getting at with my idea of a cut-out switch on the fuel pump in post #16. It's a case of damage limitation.
Your 'feral' can by-pass an immobiliser, get around the steering lock, hotwire it and whatever else he needs to do to nick the car. He then drives it away as per usual - but , half a mile down the road the engine coughs and stops with all the symptoms of running out of petrol. This will catch him unawares and out of his comfort zone. Now what will he do? He'll probably look at the gauge and realise he still has petrol. After that, he can open the bonnet and try to trace the fault - this will take time and he'll feel uncomfortably exposed while doing it. So, I like to think the odds are that he'll abandon the car. There is a risk that he'll trash it in a fit of frustration, but again as it's not in the location he'd choose it's unlikely.

[Sharman]

That's what I was getting at with my idea of a cut-out switch on the fuel pump in post #16. It's a case of damage limitation.
Your 'feral' can by-pass an immobiliser, get around the steering lock, hotwire it and whatever else he needs to do to nick the car. He then drives it away as per usual - but , half a mile down the road the engine coughs and stops with all the symptoms of running out of petrol. This will catch him unawares and out of his comfort zone. Now what will he do? He'll probably look at the gauge and realise he still has petrol. After that, he can open the bonnet and try to trace the fault - this will take time and he'll feel uncomfortably exposed while doing it. So, I like to think the odds are that he'll abandon the car. There is a risk that he'll trash it in a fit of frustration, but again as it's not in the location he'd choose it's unlikely.

...and if you have the old SU electric pump it is self immobilising

[Odseybod]

That's what I was getting at with my idea of a cut-out switch on the fuel pump in post #16. It's a case of damage limitation.
Your 'feral' can by-pass an immobiliser, get around the steering lock, hotwire it and whatever else he needs to do to nick the car. He then drives it away as per usual - but , half a mile down the road the engine coughs and stops with all the symptoms of running out of petrol. This will catch him unawares and out of his comfort zone. Now what will he do? He'll probably look at the gauge and realise he still has petrol. After that, he can open the bonnet and try to trace the fault - this will take time and he'll feel uncomfortably exposed while doing it. So, I like to think the odds are that he'll abandon the car. There is a risk that he'll trash it in a fit of frustration, but again as it's not in the location he'd choose it's unlikely.

All very true, Duncan, but I think the deterrent effect also has great value. If the dimwit has the choice between a car with built-in immobiliser and one without, I imagine it would opt for the easier target. If that vehicle then runs out of steam half a mile down the road, the dimwit will not be best pleased and willl probably not be prepared to walk away with just a resigned shrug and muttered "Funny old thing", especially if said dimwit is in the company of others of the species who will be inclined to criticise its choice of vehicle for their bit of fun. Stung to shame, it will feel obliged to vent its displeasure with boot and hammer, before departing the scene.

The detterrent effect of a bright orange Krooklock - or the similar solid metal device we had that tied gearlever to handbrake - will encourage the dimwit to avoid disappointment by moving on to a car without any such protection or an immobiliser, so yours will (theoretically) escape damage. Any car, whether fitted with an anti-theft device or an immobiliser - can be stolen, it's just that classics (dragging myself back on topic) tend to have neither protection so tend to be preferred as a target, whether for breaking into parts or just breaking.

We'd better not get into the dilemma of whether its better to take your face-off radio front or satnav home or leave it in the car. There's a school of thought that suggests more damage will be done if it's NOT under the seat or in the glovebox where any well-drilled lowlife could reasonably expect it to be.

[Paul Parker]

All very true, Duncan, but I think the deterrent effect also has great value. If the dimwit has the choice between a car with built-in immobiliser and one without, I imagine it would opt for the easier target. If that vehicle then runs out of steam half a mile down the road, the dimwit will not be best pleased and willl probably not be prepared to walk away with just a resigned shrug and muttered "Funny old thing", especially if said dimwit is in the company of others of the species who will be inclined to criticise its choice of vehicle for their bit of fun. Stung to shame, it will feel obliged to vent its displeasure with boot and hammer, before departing the scene.

The detterrent effect of a bright orange Krooklock - or the similar solid metal device we had that tied gearlever to handbrake - will encourage the dimwit to avoid disappointment by moving on to a car without any such protection or an immobiliser, so yours will (theoretically) escape damage. Any car, whether fitted with an anti-theft device or an immobiliser - can be stolen, it's just that classics (dragging myself back on topic) tend to have neither protection so tend to be preferred as a target, whether for breaking into parts or just breaking.

We'd better not get into the dilemma of whether its better to take your face-off radio front or satnav home or leave it in the car. There's a school of thought that suggests more damage will be done if it's NOT under the seat or in the glovebox where any well-drilled lowlife could reasonably expect it to be.

What really pisses me off is that this country has to rely upon a political/administrative cabal who apparently cannot be bothered to do anything about vandalism, graffiti, weekend drunken violence, so called petty thieving and worse but are always, always able to find the time, our money and personnel to prosecute all manner of legislated offences involving otherwise law abiding persons.

Given just how much money British national and local governance/quangos/all govt institutions/assorted committees and so on has untrammelled access to, via enforced direct/indirect taxation just what are they spending it on (no need to respond to this it is a rhetorical question). The usual reply from our representatives (sic) and the police is that they lack the budget/manpower (whoops, sorry, person power) to tackle this kind of criminal, anti-social activity yet when the powers that be are challenged or confronted about our corrupted public status quo watch out.

It would be very easy to catch a lot of these wretches by the simple expedient of going out in organised groups during the early hours when much of this kind of thing takes place but even when they are caught and delivered to the courts for sentencing the judges/legal system won't punish them properly if at all, often pleading poverty (again) because they haven't got the manpower, prison facilities etc., etc., or simply due to politically motivated malice aforethought.

You don't have to agree with me or my obviously personal experience based prejudices but am I the only person who finds this (worsening) situation not only totally inexcusable and unacceptable but also surely unnecessary.

[Sharman]

What really pisses me off is that this country has to rely upon a political/administrative cabal who apparently cannot be bothered to do anything about vandalism, graffiti, weekend drunken violence, so called petty thieving and worse but are always, always able to find the time, our money and personnel to prosecute all manner of legislated offences involving otherwise law abiding persons.

Given just how much money British national and local governance/quangos/all govt institutions/assorted committees and so on has untrammelled access to, via enforced direct/indirect taxation just what are they spending it on (no need to respond to this it is a rhetorical question). The usual reply from our representatives (sic) and the police is that they lack the budget/manpower (whoops, sorry, person power) to tackle this kind of criminal, anti-social activity yet when the powers that be are challenged or confronted about our corrupted public status quo watch out.

It would be very easy to catch a lot of these wretches by the simple expedient of going out in organised groups during the early hours when much of this kind of thing takes place but even when they are caught and delivered to the courts for sentencing the judges/legal system won't punish them properly if at all, often pleading poverty (again) because they haven't got the manpower, prison facilities etc., etc., or simply due to politically motivated malice aforethought.

You don't have to agree with me or my obviously personal experience based prejudices but am I the only person who finds this (worsening) situation not only totally inexcusable and unacceptable but also surely unnecessary.

For the most part Paul we do agree, a fair number of us, those of more advanced years for example, despair of the lack of applicable sanctions. Why should the great unwashed have any regard for laws, property or other peoples well being, when they know that some moronic member of the bandwagon jumping clique responsible for legislation will deny common sense? Don't blame us, blame all those who voted for them in the hope of gett6ing something for nothing and who believed the promises of politicians.
John

[Paul Parker]

For the most part Paul we do agree, a fair number of us, those of more advanced years for example, despair of the lack of applicable sanctions. Why should the great unwashed have any regard for laws, property or other peoples well being, when they know that some moronic member of the bandwagon jumping clique responsible for legislation will deny common sense? Don't blame us, blame all those who voted for them in the hope of gett6ing something for nothing and who believed the promises of politicians.
John

I'm certainly not blaming 'us' it is self evidently the fault of those in charge (sic).

It would not be unreasonable to assume, given the blatant modus operandi of our civil administration in plain view, that this situation has come about by design rather than just incompetence/cannot be bothered/arrogance/non-accountability and so on although all these things have no doubt contributed to the problems.

Was it not a former Metropolitan Police Commisssioner who was quoted in the Sunday Times some years ago stating that he was fed up with the middle classes whining about crime, or words to that effect.