52 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

Something a bit different...


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All Photos Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 17 February 2013 - 17:57.

[Duc-Man]

We have a Coventry-Climax powered formular car and a pretty odd looking sportscar body I've never seen before.

So what's the story here Doug?

[Doug Nye]

Well for starters they are not related.

DCN

[ensign14]

The sportscar looks like it's being made for some sort of sci-fi show.

[arttidesco]

I remember reading about a car that had the engine buried in the space frame so deep you needed a hacksaw to get it out, looks like this might be it was it the BRM Climax ?

Would the aluminium body be a Len Terry creation built by Alan Mann ?

[nicanary]

I remember reading about a car that had the engine buried in the space frame so deep you needed a hacksaw to get it out, looks like this might be it was it the BRM Climax ?

Would the aluminium body be a Len Terry creation built by Alan Mann ?

ATS.

[bradbury west]

Is the bodyshop at Mo Gomm's?
Roger Lund

[Doug Nye]

Could be. Not certain but I suspect not. According to what's scribbled on the print - which might be wrong - somewhere further north...

DCN

[D-Type]

Text deleted as I'd written absolute rubbish

Edited by D-Type, 22 February 2013 - 12:09.

[Mistron]

The single seater is an Emeryson, is it not? - at least the rear uprights are.

The other 'thing' - some sci-fi TV show seems most likely? something tells me I've seen it before. Is it imp engined? One of the early Doctor Whos' drove a flouder like thing with an Imp engine, so maybe I'm confusing it with that? Pail Emery built a couple of Imp engined GTs, but whilst they wre no lookers, they were not as ugly as that one.

Is that a Lotus seven in the background with the single seater?

Al

Edited by Mistron, 17 February 2013 - 21:52.

[Macca]

Is the monoposto the first version of the Scirocco?

Paul M

[bradbury west]

Could be. Not certain but I suspect not. According to what's scribbled on the print - which might be wrong - somewhere further north...

DCN

If the series 2 Seven is a clue, could it be in Edmonton and W&P's? Stabbinb in the dak, I grant you. The aluminium work looks worthy of their talents, as does to old chair rear right.........
RL

[nicanary]

If the "GT" is for a sci-fi TV show or film, why make it in such an expensive manner, when GRP would have been cheaper than handcrafted alloy? Odd. For some reason best known to my brain, it looks to me like the rear section of bodywork is supposed to slide back on runners, which is why there is a clear gap twixt front and rear sections.

Some sort of futuristic entry/exit for the passengers, or even access to the engine and concealed "Bond-style" weapons cache. I'll get me coat.

[Bloggsworth]

There's something of the Panhard about the bodyshell, and judging by the rear view, it was designed for the road; why else the flat for mounting a number plate. Clearly the design of some-one whose aerodynamic principles were culled from aircraft fuselage practice.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Are the brake and clutch pedals hinged because the master cylinders appear to be overhead mounted? Or do I need new glasses again?

[Andywillis]

The front end of the single seater definitely became one of the Scirocco's.

[Mistron]

My old car had the same rear uprights, and I always thought "you wouldn't want to get a rear puncture with the wishbones and bottom of the upright so far below the wheel rim...."

did the earlier Emery designed / built cars have 15" wheels perhaps?

[Simon Hadfield]

The Mutant Ninja Turtle is the Adams XP I believe, could have been a Marcos had things fallen rather differently.....

[arttidesco]

The Mutant Ninja Turtle is the Adams XP I believe, could have been a Marcos had things fallen rather differently.....

Thanks for putting me out of my misery

[Sebastian Tombs]

Not the Killeen (Fraser Le Mans GT) K9 is it...1967-ish? No idea with the single-seater.

ST

[Ted Walker]

The single seater is the Scirroco !!!!!!!!

[E1pix]

The coupe is really familiar but I have no idea why...

[Cirrus]

I thought the front dampers on the Scirocco were much more horizontal. There doesn't appear to be any provision for the high front antiroll bar either. Didn't the Scirocco have a top link in the rear suspnsion with variable length driveshafts, or was there more than one iteration of the car?

Edited by Cirrus, 18 February 2013 - 08:31.

[proviz]

We already have the answer for the coupe, it is the Adams XP. According to Jem Marsh the body was built in the shop of Len and Roy Hartin in Hanwell, West London.

Edited by proviz, 18 February 2013 - 08:57.

[David McKinney]

The single seater is the Scirroco !!!!!!!!

The two cars must have been quite different

I have a photo - unreproducible for copyright reasons - which shows similar rear suspension to the car in Doug's photo, but quite different front suspension

[Alan Cox]

The Mutant Ninja Turtle is the Adams XP I believe, could have been a Marcos had things fallen rather differently.....

http://www.prewarcar...-xp-016963.html

[proviz]

The two cars must have been quite different

I have a photo - unreproducible for copyright reasons - which shows similar rear suspension to the car in Doug's photo, but quite different front suspension

There's a photo of a stripped Scirocco on p. 29 of Jeremy Walton's "Racing Mechanic" - the Ermanno Cuoghi biography. It looks exactly like the one in Doug's photos and is referred to as "the second Scirocco" in the caption.

[nicanary]

If the "GT" is for a sci-fi TV show or film, why make it in such an expensive manner, when GRP would have been cheaper than handcrafted alloy? Odd. For some reason best known to my brain, it looks to me like the rear section of bodywork is supposed to slide back on runners, which is why there is a clear gap twixt front and rear sections.

Some sort of futuristic entry/exit for the passengers, or even access to the engine and concealed "Bond-style" weapons cache. I'll get me coat.

Unquoting myself. The rear bodywork didn't slide back - the doors slid into IT. Obvious when you know the answer.

[Roger Clark]

Can anyone tell me how the Scirroco came to have an FPF?

[Peter Morley]

Can anyone tell me how the Scirroco came to have an FPF?

It's the interim car built between the Emeryson and the Scirocco.

[Roger Clark]

Not a car i'd heard of. Did it race?

[David McKinney]

It's the interim car built between the Emeryson and the Scirocco.

Does this mean the Emeryson raced by Settember in 1962?

[Roger Clark]

Didn't that car have a horizontal radiator?

[Alan Cox]

Does this mean the Emeryson raced by Settember in 1962?

Is this the one?
http://www.formula1....r/1962/652.html

[Peter Morley]

Does this mean the Emeryson raced by Settember in 1962?

It was presumably one of the 1962 team cars updated, I doubt it was ever raced in this form.
It is an improved Emeryson with some Scirocco details added - pedal & instrument bulkheads, roll bar struts and neater bodywork etc. but the actual Sciroccos were different: fuel tanks welded to the chassis to make a 'semi-monocoque', different rear uprights with a top link etc.
Cuoghi's caption saying it was the second Scirocco probably led to the story about only Settember's Scirocco being 'semi-monocoque' when Burgess car was as well - his one had a narrower stronger chassis.
Even the 3rd Scirocco chassis (that was fitted with something like a De-Soto V8 and sold to Canada - where it is currently being restored) was 'semi-monocoque', so it isn't that one either.

Edited by Peter Morley, 19 February 2013 - 11:52.

[Roger Clark]

It was presumably one of the 1962 team cars updated, I doubt it was ever raced in this form.
It is an improved Emeryson with some Scirocco details added - pedal & instrument bulkheads, roll bar struts and neater bodywork etc. but the actual Sciroccos were different: fuel tanks welded to the chassis to make a 'semi-monocoque', different rear uprights with a top link etc.
Cuoghi's caption saying it was the second Scirocco probably led to the story about only Settember's Scirocco being 'semi-monocoque' when Burgess car was as well - his one had a narrower stronger chassis.
Even the 3rd Scirocco chassis (that was fitted with something like a De-Soto V8 and sold to Canada - where it is currently being restored) was 'semi-monocoque', so it isn't that one either.

What engine does the car pictured in Cuoghi's book have?

[Roger Clark]

Is this the one?
http://www.formula1....r/1962/652.html

I think that is one of the 1961 cars as raced that year by ENB. A new car was produced in 1962 but Tony Settember apparently had some difficulty fitting into it. There is a photograph of the 1962 car in Mike Lawrence's Grand Prix Cars 1945-65. It is distinctive for having no visible opening for the radiator - which was apparently horizontal and fed by air from under the car.

[raceannouncer2003]

I think that is one of the 1961 cars as raced that year by ENB. A new car was produced in 1962 but Tony Settember apparently had some difficulty fitting into it. There is a photograph of the 1962 car in Mike Lawrence's Grand Prix Cars 1945-65. It is distinctive for having no visible opening for the radiator - which was apparently horizontal and fed by air from under the car.

Photo from 1962 Crystal Palace at this link:

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item5652998283

Vince H.

[Doug Nye]

I knew the single-seater was not what Geoff's identifier on his neg scans read - 'Lola'. One of the negs shows a 3/4 view, revealing the distinctive Emeryson wheels, but I didn't want to spoil the fun. The photos of the Coupe are something else; for me such things hold very little interest unless they were raced. But Geoff surpassed himself on this one. It is evidently the Adams XP, but Geoff had written on the back of these prints just one word... 'Ecosse'.

I remember going to see Aubrey Woods when he was employed on a very fragile latter-day Ecosse road car project, the Ecosse Signature or somesuch daft name, somewhere on a farm I think in Hertfordshire. But this wasn't it. Whatever became of that prototype road going Ecosse, some time circa early 1989-90?

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 19 February 2013 - 19:51.

[Mistron]

I knew the single-seater was not what Geoff's identifier on his neg scans read - 'Lola'. One of the negs shows a 3/4 view, revealing the distinctive Emeryson wheels, but I didn't want to spoil the fun. The photos of the Coupe are something else; for me such things hold very little interest unless they were raced. But Geoff surpassed himself on this one. It is evidently the Adams XP, but Geoff had written on the back of these prints just one word... 'Ecosse'.

I remember going to see Aubrey Woods when he was employed on a very fragile latter-day Ecosse road car project, the Ecosse Signature or somesuch daft name, somewhere on a farm I think in Hertfordshire. But this wasn't it. Whatever became of that prototype road going Ecosse, some time circa early 1989-90?

DCN

Could the 'Ecosse' connection stem from the vaguest of similarities between the kicked up spoiler on the car and that on the rear of one of the Ecosse Tojeiros? it would be stretching it more than a bit though!

[Derwent Motorsport]

I must admit that I had never heard of an Ecosse road car project. I can't remember it ever being mentioned in any of the Ecosse books, however all of those books seem to be a bit thin on the post 1970 era of the team.

[Mistron]

Assuming the 'Ecosse' in question is Ecurie Ecosse, there was talk in the '70s of an Imp based road car, I think it was mentioned in at least one of the books. Not sure if any prototypes were made, but I think the plan was for Stan Sproat to design it based on the Ecosse Imps. I hink mention was made of using a garage round the corner from Merchiston Mews which was later takne over by Kenny Green who traded as 'Trophy garage' and had the Lotus concesion . It was later (mid '90s) sold and is now flats, with a Scotmid suspermarket at street level

Of course, it could be someone else was using the name Ecosse, as Ascari later did in the '90s?

[Doug Nye]

Ach zo...

http://de.wikipedia....cosse_Signature

DCN

[arttidesco]

I believe the Ecosse Signature might have had some connection to the earlier AC3000ME thanks to a deal with AC (Scotland??) that eventually fell through.

[Peter Morley]

Photo from 1962 Crystal Palace at this link:

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item5652998283

Vince H.

Guess who's waiting for that photo to arrive in the post!

There's a pretty complete story here:
http://www.hrscc.co.nz/emerysons5.html

The Formula Juniors & first F1 cars were all basically like the car in the photo.
The ENB cars had Maserati engines fitted, by cowboys (they crashed one of the engineless cars while unloading it when it first arrived) who didn't realise that moving the gearbox outputs affected the suspension geometry on a car where the driveshaft is the top link!

The factory later built the car with the horizontal radiator and unusual nose - I'm not convinced that car had the semi-monocoque chassis - driven by Campbell Jones since Settember didn't fit!

After that they built the car in Doug's pictures, before building the definitive Sciroccos, most likely it would have been the experimental horizontal radiator car updated but who knows.

[proviz]

What engine does the car pictured in Cuoghi's book have?

Looks like an FPF to me.

[bradbury west]

There's a pretty complete story here:
http://www.hrscc.co.nz/emerysons5.html

The ENB cars had Maserati engines fitted, by cowboys (they crashed one of the engineless cars while unloading it when it first arrived) The factory later built the car with the horizontal radiator and unusual nose - I'm not convinced that car had the semi-monocoque chassis - driven by Campbell Jones since Settember didn't fit!

After that they built the car in Doug's pictures, before building the definitive Sciroccos, most likely it would have been the experimental horizontal radiator car updated but who knows.

Having been directly instrumental in enabling Peter Emery to re-establish his original website I have followed this with interest, as I have more info on the actual Emery story to submit based on first hand conversations etc. with some of those involved. I will post some details from chats with JCJ in due course. BTW the photo in the Lawrence book indicating the flat rad car at Snetterton is in fact at Aintree, one of the three events in which that car raced in that format.

edit. Who were the claimed cowboys, Peter?

Roger Lund

Edited by bradbury west, 20 February 2013 - 08:59.

[Peter Morley]

Having been directly instrumental in enabling Peter Emery to re-establish his original website I have followed this with interest, as I have more info on the actual Emery story to submit based on first hand conversations etc. with some of those involved. I will post some details from chats with JCJ in due course. BTW the photo in the Lawrence book indicating the flat rad car at Snetterton is in fact at Aintree, one of the three events in which that car raced in that format.

edit. Who were the claimed cowboys, Peter?

Roger Lund

Roger

I'm looking forward to reading more...

The cowboys were ENB.
Willie Widar told me that he was there when the cars first arrived in Belgium, one of the cars rolled off the trailer and into a wall or pillar damaging it before it had even been fitted with an engine/gearbox!

Peter

[Roger Clark]

I must admit that I'm still confused about the single seater pictured by Doug. This is the story as I understand it. Perhaps Those Who Know will correct and expand as necessary.

Hugh Powell bought, or bought into, Emeryson in late 1961. Paul Emery stayed on as designer but other directors left. Two works cars were entered during 1962, for Tony Settember, who was Powell's guardian, and John Campbell-Jones.

A new car was produced, the Mark 3, which was generally smaller and more Lotus-like than the earlier cars. If my interpretation of the F1R records is correct, only one Mark 3 was produced, chassis number 1006. I infer this because all earlier chassis numbers had appeared during 1961. When it first appeared, the Mark 3 was distinguished by a horizontal radiator and the intake below the nose cone, rather like a Connew. Bradbury West says above that it only appeared three times in this form but there is a photograph from Crystal Palace, which was, according to F1R its fourth or fifth race with the horizontal radiator. I say fourth or fifth because a car was loaned to Wolfgang Seidel for the Dutch Grand Prix; F1R says that this was 1006 but DSJ says in Motor Sport that it was a 1961-type. The Mark 3 was usually driven by Campbell-Jones as Settember was too big for it. Campbell-Jones crashed at Solitude ending his season. F1R says that he was driving one of the 1961 cars but 1006 does not appear again.

Photographs of the Mark 3 seem rare and I have never seen one with the bodywork off. Reports say that it had a stressed-skin chassis but Peter Morely doubted this. All these Emerysons had Climax FPF engines.

At the end of 1962, Paul Emery left the organisation and Powell formed Scirocco-Powell racing to build Scirocco cars powered by BRM V8 engines. The first car appeared at the Belgian Grand Prix and the second at the British although they were listed as non-starters from the International Trophy. Earlier in the season, Scirocco-Powell Racing entered Settember in an Emeryson at Pau. He lasted only three laps and the car was sold immediately afterwards. This was, apparently, 1004, one of the 1961 cars.

It now appears that Scirocco-Powell built an FPF-powered car, presumably in 1963, but did not race it. I have to ask why they would do that.

The above is derived from contemporary Motor Sport, the F1R Black Book, Mike Lawrence's Grand Prix Cars 1945-65, Doug Nye's History of Grand Prix Cars 1945-65, the HSCC website pointed to by Peter Morely and a 1985 Motor Sport article by Lawrence on the cars of Paul Emery. Contemporary photographs are rare and I would be grateful for leads to any, particularly of the Mark 3 and of the car raced by Settember at Pau in 1963.

[Peter Morley]

I just found another photo of the horizontal radiator Emeryson Mark 3.
Go to racebears.photodeck.com
Then look under 1960s & Formula Junior and there is a photo of the Mark 3 at Goodwood with unpainted aluminium bodywork with race number 19.
Despite the caption it is an F1 - carbs on the left being the giveaway.

Edited by Peter Morley, 22 February 2013 - 11:28.