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What if the Mercedes is on the sharp end of the grid this year?


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#101 BoschKurve

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 22:06

In F1 it's not always wise to look back, things change quickly, If and when they find their so called structure they might potentially reach the goal of consistently fighting for wins. I've said it before, this team has all the ingredients for success. If you would have told me in 2008 Milton Keynes and Brackley will have won the next 4 wdc/wcc titles i would have told you they can't develop etc.


Except Brackley won their title based on a favorable FIA ruling, and a car they did not develop. 2009 was an anomaly. Jenson knew better than to stick around that outfit.

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#102 BoschKurve

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 22:13

:rotfl:

Brawn is a man who has led three separate teams at technical/team director to nine titles, over the course of 18 years.
Its amazing that you're the only one who can spot the "ineptitude" of Ross Brawn.


God you still believe that crap do you?

Since Ross will be fired from MGP sooner than later, it'll put a real dent in the theory that he ever mattered to the degree people like to imagine he did at Benetton/Ferrari.

#103 Massa_f1

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 22:18

I will be even more annoyed there is no MSC in F1 anymore.


:up: I am not to worried though. Schumacher and Rosberg were never really slow in any pre season tests they did. This seems like no different to me.

Do people seriously think Mercedes are just going to magically jump ahead of 4 teams this year?

#104 Shiroo

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 22:22

:up: I am not to worried though. Schumacher and Rosberg were never really slow in any pre season tests they did. This seems like no different to me.

Do people seriously think Mercedes are just going to magically jump ahead of 4 teams this year?

Hamilton's fans, yes.

Edited by Shiroo, 21 February 2013 - 22:22.


#105 DutchCruijff

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 22:28

Of course when one usually makes a rather controversial point if unable to provide any evidence one is usually required at the very least to explain the rationale behind such a comment. AFAIA Schumacher's influence was very negligible this time around, and can not be compared to his Ferrari days with unlimited testing ect, especially since most work is done via the simulator now which Michael was unable to drive due to motion sickness. He certainly didn't contribute through driver performance, or the boosting of team morale, in fact there were various comments about the team's unhappiness with him, and the spectre of his age although media driven refused to go away hanging over Mercedes like a shadow. He may have been great in 2012 but even than had a couple of brainfades (Spain, Singapore) and both his 2010 and 2011 campaigns appear to have severely tarnished his reputation, and rumours suggest that even with Michael there Daimler were seriously suggesting pulling out and that it was only the signing of LH(apparently maneuvered in the background by both Ecclestone and Lauda), along with favourable terms in the new Concorde agreement which was what ultimately stayed Daimler's hands and ensured their continued presence in F1.

Absolute bobbins. He contributed a major part because Daimler would have folded the team had it not been for the name "Schumacher", and are you telling me the team didn't get an extra boost from working for Schumacher, someone they know will put in an immense amount of commitment and concentration into the project? Are you also telling me that his feedback did not help the team develop the sh*tty car forward? Are you also telling me that his immense understanding of the tyres, something that Mercedes couldn't get their heads around for 3 years and something that Hembery specifically spoke on, did not help the team? Are you also telling me that his ability to keep a cool head whilst others were losing their's, notably Rosberg, did not benefit the team's morale? Are you also telling me that his ability to maintain his "Oh well, on to the next race" attitude" to cover up for the vast swade of Mercedes f*ck-ups did not manage to maintain the team's morale? I highly, highly doubt Hamilton will ever match Schumacher's poise and awe inspiring determination at Mercedes.

And two things, various comments about the team's unhappiness? Over the last 3 years of following Mercedes, these rumours were few and far between.
And his age hanging over Mercedes like a "shadow"? What difference did it make? They were amateurish before Schumacher and amateurish during his time there.

If the answer to those questions are "yes", then I'd like to direct you to this page:- http://www.thearc.or...e.aspx?pid=2342 . You can thank me later.



#106 DutchCruijff

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 22:29

But then again, the points were raised by what is very much likely a deluded and naive Hamilton fan.

#107 MP422

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 22:33

Hamilton's fans, yes.


That's not true, I think they are just hoping it's ahead of the mid field.

#108 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 22:33

Absolute bobbins.

I have nothing to add to this discussion, except for you've my night saying that. :p

#109 MP422

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 22:35

If Mercedes are on the sharp end of the grid this year, I think it'll be safe to assume that Schumacher had a major part in it, so much more than Rosberg or Hamilton. thus chalking up another "bringing a legendary manufacturer to the fore" for the GOAT.


Who are you calling deluded ?

#110 DutchCruijff

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 22:37

Who are you calling deluded ?

308 races, 91 GP wins, 68+1 poles, 77 fastest laps & a 7xWDC.

#111 maverick69

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 22:42

Hamilton's fans, yes.


You see.

It's this kind of stuff that makes me laugh........

...... It's those mudda fugga Hamilton fans up to their tricks again.......

So hotshot: Why not back up your statement?..........

#112 TomNokoe

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 22:50

Do people seriously think Mercedes are just going to magically jump ahead of 4 teams this year?

really, though?

#113 jjcale

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 22:55

.....I highly, highly doubt Hamilton will ever match Schumacher's poise and awe inspiring determination at Mercedes.

.....



But then again, the points were raised by what is very much likely a deluded and naive Hamilton fan.



#114 Watkins74

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 22:58

Do people seriously think Mercedes are just going to magically jump ahead of 4 teams this year?

I don't understand why they should be so crappy this year and be totally awesome next year. I personally don't think Mercedes has any excuse not to be an improved team this year.

Edited by Watkins74, 22 February 2013 - 04:20.


#115 Kvothe

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 23:25

Absolute bobbins. He contributed a major part because Daimler would have folded the team had it not been for the name "Schumacher", and are you telling me the team didn't get an extra boost from working for Schumacher, someone they know will put in an immense amount of commitment and concentration into the project? Are you also telling me that his feedback did not help the team develop the sh*tty car forward? Are you also telling me that his immense understanding of the tyres, something that Mercedes couldn't get their heads around for 3 years and something that Hembery specifically spoke on, did not help the team? Are you also telling me that his ability to keep a cool head whilst others were losing their's, notably Rosberg, did not benefit the team's morale? Are you also telling me that his ability to maintain his "Oh well, on to the next race" attitude" to cover up for the vast swade of Mercedes f*ck-ups did not manage to maintain the team's morale? I highly, highly doubt Hamilton will ever match Schumacher's poise and awe inspiring determination at Mercedes.

And two things, various comments about the team's unhappiness? Over the last 3 years of following Mercedes, these rumours were few and far between.
And his age hanging over Mercedes like a "shadow"? What difference did it make? They were amateurish before Schumacher and amateurish during his time there.

If the answer to those questions are "yes", then I'd like to direct you to this page:- http://www.thearc.or...e.aspx?pid=2342 . You can thank me later.


First of all you're link at the bottom was in very poor taste, not only for your obvious lack of empathy for certain less fortunate sections of society, but because the conclusion you came to was basically disagree with me and have a different opinion and you're mentally retarded which never bodes well for any rational discussion.

My previous post pointing out the lack of any explanations seems to have been completely ignored with you throwing out my points not supported by any evidence or rational process of thought. Initially the team may have got some kind of boost from working with Schumacher but it's hardly likely that the honeymoon period lasted long. I can imagine its rather hard to feel motivated by a driver who loses to a team mate three years in a row, and it doesn't matter how much commitment and concentration a person is willing to put in, results are what matter in F1, and Schumacher wasn't delivering, he even cost himself a sure fire victory in Monaco because of a mistake made by himself the previous race in Spain. What feedback? I see no evidence he contributed any more than Rosberg, and in fact his inability to use the simulator would mean its highly likely that Rosberg was providing more meaningful feedback, I also see no evidence he contributed to moving a sh**y car forward especially when you consider Mercedes' poor in-season development with it being very difficult to separate how much was down to the team and how much was down to the drivers providing inadequate direction. Deep understanding of the tyres? Sure helped Mercedes didn't it. Ability to keep a cool head? He may have been able to put on a PR smile in an interview, but compare the number of incidents Rosberg had to Schumacher, or note incidents such Schumacher deliberately parking his car in front of one Lewis Hamilton during a FP session because of some imaginary slight, or his shouting of idiot when referring to Bruno Senna having himself just taken Senna out of the race because of a misjudgement a mistake made by himself so yet another statement of yours not backed up by reality. Mercedes messed up a lot last season, but that doesn't explain 2010 or 2011.

Of course when your're arguing with a statement such as

highly doubt Hamilton will ever match Schumacher's poise and awe inspiring determination at Mercedes.

it makes you realise the futility of it all. For me the enduring moment of the Mercedes- Schumacher relationship will be the team radio after Michael had just gone into the back of Vergne in Singapore, the lack of respect and amount of aggression in the race engineers voice when asking 'what happened there' to Schumacher, offered a peephole into the team's perception of Michael as one of being fed-up of being disappointed, a perception which had already been shakily brought into existence with various 'insider comments' months before.

In conclusion I still see no evidence to suggest Michael can take anything more than extremely minor credit should Mercedes begin climbing the steep winding path to success,and nothing you've said has even threatened to make me consider differently.

#116 HoldenRT

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 00:04

When Alonso went to McLaren in 2007.. after two years of WDC's with Renaults.. everyone said it was a crazy move and that McLaren would suck for him. Because people's memories are short and in 2006.. the McLaren could barely contest podiums and was usually around 4th-6th etc with Kimi and even worse with Pedro or Montoya. And then Alonso and Hamilton contended the title and without the inter team stuff, one of them would have won the WDC.

Do I think the same will happen again? Probably not.. but the doomsdayers.. they are always around. You just have to wait for the first few races to see. The top 5 teams from last season all have something to be optimistic about. I think Lotus has more chance than Mercedes.. I expect Lotus to be really strong this season.. but it wouldn't be a huge shock to me if Rosberg and Hamilton are fighting for podiums and the occasional win. And if not, there is the rule changes for next season where the order will be shaken up again.

#117 Kingshark

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 00:18

Indeedy. Look at 'BrackleyF1', when have they ever kept up during a season? Even in 09 they went from starting with a massive advantage to barely troubling the podium during the season.

Partially disagree.

In 2004, they started with the third best car and ended the championship second.

Otherwise, excluding that one season, you are absolutely right, sir.

Edited by Kingshark, 22 February 2013 - 00:19.


#118 DutchCruijff

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 00:25

First of all you're link at the bottom was in very poor taste, not only for your obvious lack of empathy for certain less fortunate sections of society, but because the conclusion you came to was basically disagree with me and have a different opinion and you're mentally retarded which never bodes well for any rational discussion.

My previous post pointing out the lack of any explanations seems to have been completely ignored with you throwing out my points not supported by any evidence or rational process of thought. Initially the team may have got some kind of boost from working with Schumacher but it's hardly likely that the honeymoon period lasted long. I can imagine its rather hard to feel motivated by a driver who loses to a team mate three years in a row, and it doesn't matter how much commitment and concentration a person is willing to put in, results are what matter in F1, and Schumacher wasn't delivering, he even cost himself a sure fire victory in Monaco because of a mistake made by himself the previous race in Spain. What feedback? I see no evidence he contributed any more than Rosberg, and in fact his inability to use the simulator would mean its highly likely that Rosberg was providing more meaningful feedback, I also see no evidence he contributed to moving a sh**y car forward especially when you consider Mercedes' poor in-season development with it being very difficult to separate how much was down to the team and how much was down to the drivers providing inadequate direction. Deep understanding of the tyres? Sure helped Mercedes didn't it. Ability to keep a cool head? He may have been able to put on a PR smile in an interview, but compare the number of incidents Rosberg had to Schumacher, or note incidents such Schumacher deliberately parking his car in front of one Lewis Hamilton during a FP session because of some imaginary slight, or his shouting of idiot when referring to Bruno Senna having himself just taken Senna out of the race because of a misjudgement a mistake made by himself so yet another statement of yours not backed up by reality. Mercedes messed up a lot last season, but that doesn't explain 2010 or 2011.

Of course when your're arguing with a statement such as it makes you realise the futility of it all. For me the enduring moment of the Mercedes- Schumacher relationship will be the team radio after Michael had just gone into the back of Vergne in Singapore, the lack of respect and amount of aggression in the race engineers voice when asking 'what happened there' to Schumacher, offered a peephole into the team's perception of Michael as one of being fed-up of being disappointed, a perception which had already been shakily brought into existence with various 'insider comments' months before.

In conclusion I still see no evidence to suggest Michael can take anything more than extremely minor credit should Mercedes begin climbing the steep winding path to success,and nothing you've said has even threatened to make me consider differently.

I took one read of your post and I just can't produce a response. Such drivel does not warrant a clear and concise post. Take my lack of an "equal" response as an expression of dismay.

#119 Juggles

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 00:30

First of all you're link at the bottom was in very poor taste, not only for your obvious lack of empathy for certain less fortunate sections of society, but because the conclusion you came to was basically disagree with me and have a different opinion and you're mentally retarded which never bodes well for any rational discussion.

My previous post pointing out the lack of any explanations seems to have been completely ignored with you throwing out my points not supported by any evidence or rational process of thought. Initially the team may have got some kind of boost from working with Schumacher but it's hardly likely that the honeymoon period lasted long. I can imagine its rather hard to feel motivated by a driver who loses to a team mate three years in a row, and it doesn't matter how much commitment and concentration a person is willing to put in, results are what matter in F1, and Schumacher wasn't delivering, he even cost himself a sure fire victory in Monaco because of a mistake made by himself the previous race in Spain. What feedback? I see no evidence he contributed any more than Rosberg, and in fact his inability to use the simulator would mean its highly likely that Rosberg was providing more meaningful feedback, I also see no evidence he contributed to moving a sh**y car forward especially when you consider Mercedes' poor in-season development with it being very difficult to separate how much was down to the team and how much was down to the drivers providing inadequate direction. Deep understanding of the tyres? Sure helped Mercedes didn't it. Ability to keep a cool head? He may have been able to put on a PR smile in an interview, but compare the number of incidents Rosberg had to Schumacher, or note incidents such Schumacher deliberately parking his car in front of one Lewis Hamilton during a FP session because of some imaginary slight, or his shouting of idiot when referring to Bruno Senna having himself just taken Senna out of the race because of a misjudgement a mistake made by himself so yet another statement of yours not backed up by reality. Mercedes messed up a lot last season, but that doesn't explain 2010 or 2011.

Of course when your're arguing with a statement such as it makes you realise the futility of it all. For me the enduring moment of the Mercedes- Schumacher relationship will be the team radio after Michael had just gone into the back of Vergne in Singapore, the lack of respect and amount of aggression in the race engineers voice when asking 'what happened there' to Schumacher, offered a peephole into the team's perception of Michael as one of being fed-up of being disappointed, a perception which had already been shakily brought into existence with various 'insider comments' months before.

In conclusion I still see no evidence to suggest Michael can take anything more than extremely minor credit should Mercedes begin climbing the steep winding path to success,and nothing you've said has even threatened to make me consider differently.


I completely agree. Of the post you replied to I found this sentence the richest: "are you also telling me that his immense understanding of the tyres, something that Mercedes couldn't get their heads around for three years...didn't help the team?" Classic stuff.

I also agree about the reference to the learning disabilities website. A bottom of the barrel, scummy post all round from the guy you replied to.


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#120 DutchCruijff

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 00:49

"I think he is the most experienced tyre tester in the history of F1," and with that he also said that Schumacher and Vettel were the two that provided the greatest amount of detail on the tyres and were also the two who put the most time into trying to analyse the tyres.

Schumacher's feedback at Mercedes was something that was noted many a time whilst Rosberg's feedback abilities were over-looked, as were Hamilton's, as per.

The key word there being "help". Classic. Stuff.

#121 DutchCruijff

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 00:52

Also, what mistake did he make in Spain? Crashing into Senna? That was very much Senna's fault for his erratic driving.

And the team were unhappy with him? Why were they so keen on offering him a 2 year contract? They waited for Schumacher's answer before they went off hunting for Hamilton.

#122 BillBald

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 02:18

Also, what mistake did he make in Spain? Crashing into Senna? That was very much Senna's fault for his erratic driving like Schumi - moving in the braking zone.



#123 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:51

Jus as an ovew. Jensen won a championship for Brawn the year before it became Mercedes and got in a high priced retiree. Who really did not do a hell of a lot in 3 years. Hamilton will do better, between brainfades and having to battle the mid pack fdor positions. His good days will be better the MS and his bad no worse. Will that Team win a lot, probably not, but if they provide the same slightly 2nd tier equipment they did last year LH will try very hard. Just break and bend a few cars!

#124 dans79

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:52

Jus as an ovew. Jensen won a championship for Brawn the year before it became Mercedes and got in a high priced retiree. Who really did not do a hell of a lot in 3 years.


As someone who used to be a MSC fan, I hate to admit it, but it's true. He should have stayed retired, instead of coming back.

#125 jj2728

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 10:20

Absolute bobbins. He contributed a major part because Daimler would have folded the team had it not been for the name "Schumacher", and are you telling me the team didn't get an extra boost from working for Schumacher, someone they know will put in an immense amount of commitment and concentration into the project? Are you also telling me that his feedback did not help the team develop the sh*tty car forward? Are you also telling me that his immense understanding of the tyres, something that Mercedes couldn't get their heads around for 3 years and something that Hembery specifically spoke on, did not help the team? Are you also telling me that his ability to keep a cool head whilst others were losing their's, notably Rosberg, did not benefit the team's morale? Are you also telling me that his ability to maintain his "Oh well, on to the next race" attitude" to cover up for the vast swade of Mercedes f*ck-ups did not manage to maintain the team's morale? I highly, highly doubt Hamilton will ever match Schumacher's poise and awe inspiring determination at Mercedes.

And two things, various comments about the team's unhappiness? Over the last 3 years of following Mercedes, these rumours were few and far between.
And his age hanging over Mercedes like a "shadow"? What difference did it make? They were amateurish before Schumacher and amateurish during his time there.

If the answer to those questions are "yes", then I'd like to direct you to this page:- http://www.thearc.or...e.aspx?pid=2342 . You can thank me later.


Talk about deluded fans of retired drivers...
Schumacher did nothing in 3 years, the Hamilton Rosberg combination is exactly what Mercedes needed. Those that think otherwise are kidding themselves. This team will gel in 2013 and do so nicely.
All the pieces are in place and it is still my contention that they'll be the ones bringing the fight to the Red Bull duo.

#126 Velocifer

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 10:24

Speaking about the moral boost, not his technical input

The first thing Hamilton did for morale was to belittle the team by announcing to the world that he had no hopes of winning a race in a Mercedes in 2013, much to the chagrin of the Mercedes team principle and no doubt all the other team members. This was after Mercedes winning a race in 2012 which means he is expecting the team to go backward to the no-hopes for the whole year which is not a very nice thing for a new team member to say.

The next thing Hamilton does is to say after testing the new car that his realistic target for 2013 is to make top 10 finishes with it, which should piss ambitious Mercedes staff off.

Of course this is all about making sure he himself looks the hero should he get podiums or wins (as the car was so bad remember), and proves it's not team building Hamilton is interested in, it's Hamilton building. I daresay a cold shoulder could quickly be forming at Mercedes with a few more derogatory public comments or a tweet or two. Brawn, knowing how Hamilton can just as easily turn and bite a team like with twittergate last year and probably a lot more through the inter team grapevine, has made his message to Hamilton clear and unmasked: "You have a choice in the team, you are either part of the problem or you're part of the solution".

#127 DutchCruijff

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 10:39

And what is this nonsense about simulator work? You cannot replicate the real thing and Nico wasn't on par with Schumacher in providing feedback.

Incredible amount of bias on show here.

#128 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 10:42

No longer discussing the topic