85 replies to this topic

[ChiltonsCats]

The man's done his time, so unless people think that it's in the public interest to have people who commit crimes forever be punished by them like Sisyphus instead of rehabilitating them then he is rightly putting it behind him and getting on with his life. In terms of travel, as long as he applies for visas in advance I doubt there'd be a problem, given that he is probably at low risk of reoffending and he also has a clearly defined schedule. It may have an impact on his ability to travel to ad hoc sponsor events, but that may actually work in his favour.

he did know time...he payed them off to stop him having to do time...he cut a mans throat yet you bastards defend him being able to drive, he isn't fit for any car, yet alone a F1 car and the money that comes with it, he is ****.

[Brother Fox]

this is good, more please

[Sakae]

The USA does not freeze out professional sports players becuase of past criminal records they have in other countries. If you got the 3 degree, it is because you planned to live and study here.

Our own NFL football players are shooting for the record number of murders, illegal gambling, and crimes against women...Adrian's little glass incident is hardly noteworthy in comparison.

Your NFL heroes are loved, and heads are turning away from their behaviour. I am not entirely convinced that name Sutil however means anything for a custom person sitting in an airport booth. I am aware of a case when a visitor obtained visas in advance, yet was turned away by a custom officer, and that's without explanation. Apparently they can do that.

Edited by Sakae, 01 March 2013 - 05:32.

[kedia990]

Australia can bar entry if you are:

sentenced to either death or life imprisonment (how would you be flying then? )

sentenced to a term of imprisonment for 12 months or more

sentenced to two or more terms of imprisonment (whether on one or more occasions), where the total of those terms is two years or more

acquitted of an offence on the grounds of either unsoundness of mind or insanity and, as a result, the person has been detained in a facility or institution.

Problem much?

[mattferg]

From a legal standpoint, whether his sentence is suspended or not, he was sentenced for a period of imprisonment and as such it might be difficult for him to enter many countries, regardless of work/holiday visas and length of time (not even sure F1 drivers can use an ESTA, anyone know about this? ESTAs are for holidays and they're technically working). NFL players are mostly irrelevant as they either rarely leave the US to play a game, and they'll be let into the US with convictions as most, if not all, are citizens. The issue isn't EU countries (which do check passports at airports BTW) but countries such as the US, Australia and possibly China, who are very strict in immigration. Nothing to declare anyone? xD

From a moral standpoint, regardless of what Lux said and whether it was a 'one-off' for what Sutil did, if myself or someone else cut your GF/BF/husband or parent's throat with a glass, didn't go to jail and a year later resumed their old job and life, you'd be fairly upset. It's a testament to Lux's character, not what Sutil did that he's willing to forgive and forget, and has little to do with the severity.

From a financial standpoint, a violent driver with an assault conviction can't be good for sponsors. I understand Sutil comes with Mercedes money or other sponsors and is a good driver they're comfortable with, but there are a lot of drivers out there who are good, with F1 experience and financial backing, so with all of the above issues it is bizarre they signed Sutil.

Edited by mattferg, 01 March 2013 - 06:24.

[Brother Fox]

Well he shouldnt be banned from entering Australia becuase that kind of crime, for a first timer, would most likely be a good behaviour bond or suspended sentence here.
Probably wouldnt stop you from most jobs that require a police background check either.

[mattferg]

Well he shouldnt be banned from entering Australia becuase that kind of crime, for a first timer, would most likely be a good behaviour bond or suspended sentence here.
Probably wouldnt stop you from most jobs that require a police background check either.

As I said, whether suspended or not, it's both on his criminal record (and as such at the discretion of the employer) and is an imprisonment sentence, just suspended.

[Brother Fox]

Well Hamilton got done by the (over zealous) cops for negligent driving or something a few years back for doing a burnout for fans as he left the track in Oz. He seems to be allowed back.

Surely this isnt a unique situation??

[mattferg]

Well Hamilton got done by the (over zealous) cops for negligent driving or something a few years back for doing a burnout for fans as he left the track in Oz. He seems to be allowed back.

Surely this isnt a unique situation??

If you actually read the thread you'll note above someone posted the conditions upon which Australia can deny entry. A criminal conviction is not one, an imprisonment sentence, suspended or otherwise, is.

Edited by mattferg, 01 March 2013 - 06:43.

[Brother Fox]

Can you try to be a bit more condecending?

[mattferg]

Can you try to be a bit more condecending?

I'm not even trying yet xD

[Sakae]

As I said, whether suspended or not, it's both on his criminal record (and as such at the discretion of the employer) and is an imprisonment sentence, just suspended.

This is a reason, I think, why FI could not annouce Sutil's nomination. Perhaps they were clearing things up ahead, but I doubt that all countries gave them any guarantees that Sutil will race all events on the calendar. I would not be surprised if we see a substitute for him in one or two races, which would make mockery out of WDC for him. It all leads to inevitable conclusion that FI is probably in financial trouble, and Sutil's money is more important to them than WDC or morality of this case.

Edited by Sakae, 01 March 2013 - 07:05.

[Imperial]

This is a reason, I think, why FI could not annouce Sutil's nomination. Perhaps they were clearing things up ahead, but I doubt that all countries gave them any guarantees that Sutil will race all events on the calendar. I would not be surprised if we see a substitute for him in one or two races, which would make mockery out of WDC for him. It all leads to inevitable conclusion that FI is probably in financial trouble, and Sutil's money is more important to them than WDC or morality of this case.

It makes complete sense. Obviously they've settled on a Mclaren future, that much is obvious.

In terms of cash to drive, you wouldn't be surprised if he has to pay for every race he intends to enter (i.e. the whole calendar), irrespective of whether he is granted entry into a country or not. They may end up being paid twice if another driver has to stand in.

Actually - have they announced anything at all along the lines of a substitute/third/junior/test driver? I don't believe so and if not that probably strengthens the suspicion that they are aware Sutil may have to be binned for certain races and there is no doubt a list locked away in a safe with the names and numbers of interested parties who will have cash and an airplane waiting on every Thursday morning of every race weekend the whole season through.

[Treads]

I do remember seeing border guards in Switzerland frantically waving everyone through, but I assume they were stationed there as border customs as there is of course no passport control. I've annoyingly been stopped by Polish customs in a van, blue-lights, sirens the lot, about 1 mile from entering Germany. A 'standard' random check of the car.

I hadn't actually realised Croatia actually does have passport control and as the guards were seemingly on a smoking break I got 20 feet into Croatia before heart-stoppingly realising my error. One hour later and one failed attempt by the guard keep nodding toward my jeans pockets to try and get me to attempt to bribe him so he could tick his arrest quota for the day (mate, I can see the "Bribing officials is illegal" poster behind you, I know what you're doing), I was finally allowed into Croatia with a stamped passport this time!!

Ah, the vagaries of Europe....

Croatia is neither in Schengen, nor in the EU. Nothing vague about that. Standard border control procedures apply.

To correct any other misunderstandings I've noted in this thread...

UK is not in Schengen, so standard border procedures apply. However, if you are a citizen of an EU country these procedures are pretty much exactly the same as UK citizens have to go through, without forms or landing cards or visa or whatever. The perks of EU membership. Anyone outside the EU has a totally different process.

Sutil won't have any problem, of course, in any EU country, legally there is no recourse to stop him moving freely in the EU. Having a criminal record will make it more complicated for him to get Visas for other countries, but by no means impossible. Consider the difference between a rugby league player earning Euro 100k a year and Adrian Sutil, mega multi-millionaire.

Edited by Treads, 01 March 2013 - 09:39.

[Treads]

Switzerland is not part of the EU and of course you are checked at the borders at some areas... but not everywhere... and not all the time

Not true, Switzerland is in Schengen and has common borders. When entering Switzerland you will generally only be stopped so you can pay the Swiss road usage tax, if you've already paid it that calendar year they put a sticker in your windscreen and won't stop you again. It's not really customs or immigration or border control, it's purely tax.

[Treads]

From a legal standpoint, whether his sentence is suspended or not, he was sentenced for a period of imprisonment and as such it might be difficult for him to enter many countries, regardless of work/holiday visas and length of time (not even sure F1 drivers can use an ESTA, anyone know about this? ESTAs are for holidays and they're technically working). NFL players are mostly irrelevant as they either rarely leave the US to play a game, and they'll be let into the US with convictions as most, if not all, are citizens. The issue isn't EU countries (which do check passports at airports BTW) but countries such as the US, Australia and possibly China, who are very strict in immigration. Nothing to declare anyone? xD

From a moral standpoint, regardless of what Lux said and whether it was a 'one-off' for what Sutil did, if myself or someone else cut your GF/BF/husband or parent's throat with a glass, didn't go to jail and a year later resumed their old job and life, you'd be fairly upset. It's a testament to Lux's character, not what Sutil did that he's willing to forgive and forget, and has little to do with the severity.

From a financial standpoint, a violent driver with an assault conviction can't be good for sponsors. I understand Sutil comes with Mercedes money or other sponsors and is a good driver they're comfortable with, but there are a lot of drivers out there who are good, with F1 experience and financial backing, so with all of the above issues it is bizarre they signed Sutil.

You can use an ESTA for business purposes also, I've done it.

But consider... ESTAs are valid for a period of (from memory) two years... Sutil presumably already has long-term visas in his passport with most of the F1 circuits. If you are rich, famous, and a sportsman, normal rules do not apply. However, even with a valid ESTA you can still be turned away at the border. Same goes for a visa.

Finally, travelling within the EU (even into and out of the non-Schengen UK) you do not actually need a passport, even at an airport, you can use a national identity card (which I don't think the UK has? Or if we do it's not very common).

[Nonesuch]

Hi there.About two weeks ago I had a visa interview in the U.S embassy here to try and get a student visa to go study in the states and they were preety damn serious about criminal records.I had to bring in testimonials,certificate of good conduct and a background check was performed.It got me thinking,Adrian Sutil has a widely publicized criminal record so will he be frozen out of the U.S gp later this year?or does his EU passport give him some kind of immunity?
Also, there are also many other countries that may be strict,Australia for instance?China? the middle east countries?

I'd guess his criminal record is going to set of some notifications here and there, but I doubt it'll be much of a problem given the circumstances. As with pretty much every law, there's dozens of exceptions: "Some countries, such as the United States, require travelers with criminal records to get a waiver, which is a matter of a fee and an application. In the U.S., this good for five years, but validation varies by country. Other countries have no restrictions to criminal records, while some deny entry to only those convicted of specific crimes, such as murder, or anything having to do with guns or drugs."

New Zealand has a nicely written out 'Good Character' requirement for obtaining a visa that's probably somewhat similar to a lot of other countries: http://glossary.immi...odcharacter.htm

Also keep in mind that the USA is far from the norm. As Mike Rogers, president of Universal Vision Japan noted recently: "Before I arrived in their country, in the airplane before we landed, they made me fill out all sorts of stupid forms asking all sorts of ridiculous questions. Upon landing, the very unfriendly customs and immigration agents seemed like they hated their jobs, lives, and wished I'd never bothered them by visiting their country. It is unnerving to be given the stink-eye like I am some sort of terrorist. I am often disheveled and possibly suspicious looking but I think I am hardly terrorist material or even terrorist-looking material. With a gasp of exasperation, the man stamps my passport, mumbles something to me and waves us by with one finger as he grimaces at the next in line."

[progrocks]

With the US at least, if he is denied entry, the race is in Texas so he can go to Mexico and run across the border with some Mexicans.

We all know he knows how to run, and climb over a wall as seen here.....

[mprtc]

With the US at least, if he is denied entry, the race is in Texas so he can go to Mexico and run across the border with some Mexicans.

We all know he knows how to run, and climb over a wall as seen here.....

LOL

[stairpotato]

he did know time...he payed them off to stop him having to do time...he cut a mans throat yet you bastards defend him being able to drive, he isn't fit for any car, yet alone a F1 car and the money that comes with it, he is ****.

Sutil was given an 18 month suspended prison sentence and a €200,000 fine. He wasn't sentenced to being banned from driving in F1 for the rest of his life. There are numerous examples of people that have been convicted of far worse than Sutil, yet have returned to their careers. Why should he be any different?

Leave the guy alone. Like him or not, the incident in question is totally irrelevant. If Force India want to welcome him back with open arms - good on them.

[stairpotato]

he did know time...he payed them off to stop him having to do time...he cut a mans throat yet you bastards defend him being able to drive, he isn't fit for any car, yet alone a F1 car and the money that comes with it, he is ****.

Sutil was given an 18 month suspended prison sentence and a €200,000 fine. He wasn't sentenced to being banned from driving in F1 for the rest of his life. There are numerous examples of people that have been convicted of far worse than Sutil, yet have returned to their careers. Why should he be any different?

Leave the guy alone. Like him or not, the incident in question is totally irrelevant. If Force India want to welcome him back with open arms - good on them.

[Treads]

I'd guess his criminal record is going to set of some notifications here and there, but I doubt it'll be much of a problem given the circumstances. As with pretty much every law, there's dozens of exceptions: "Some countries, such as the United States, require travelers with criminal records to get a waiver, which is a matter of a fee and an application. In the U.S., this good for five years, but validation varies by country. Other countries have no restrictions to criminal records, while some deny entry to only those convicted of specific crimes, such as murder, or anything having to do with guns or drugs."

New Zealand has a nicely written out 'Good Character' requirement for obtaining a visa that's probably somewhat similar to a lot of other countries: http://glossary.immi...odcharacter.htm

Also keep in mind that the USA is far from the norm. As Mike Rogers, president of Universal Vision Japan noted recently: "Before I arrived in their country, in the airplane before we landed, they made me fill out all sorts of stupid forms asking all sorts of ridiculous questions. Upon landing, the very unfriendly customs and immigration agents seemed like they hated their jobs, lives, and wished I'd never bothered them by visiting their country. It is unnerving to be given the stink-eye like I am some sort of terrorist. I am often disheveled and possibly suspicious looking but I think I am hardly terrorist material or even terrorist-looking material. With a gasp of exasperation, the man stamps my passport, mumbles something to me and waves us by with one finger as he grimaces at the next in line."

One man's experience, one airport, one security guard. My experience of US immigration (the guys who stamp your passport at least) has been that they are very professional, friendly, competent people. Compared with the horrendously unpleasant experience of flying Delta, it was perfectly fine.

But we can't deny the immigration checks in the US are really pretty tough.

[Group B]

I hope his career crashes and burns and he's refused entry, he does not deserve to be a F1 driver.

Yeah, we need to free up more seats for real top line drivers like Chilton

By the way, normal procedure when you post the same thing twice is to delete one of them; or did you leave both to demonstrate your strength of feeling?

[Imperial]

When entering Switzerland you will generally only be stopped so you can pay the Swiss road usage tax, if you've already paid it that calendar year they put a sticker in your windscreen and won't stop you again. It's not really customs or immigration or border control, it's purely tax.

I've only been through Switzerland once and despite two dudes stood around in uniform they waved me straight through, I don't recall seeing any signs regarding road tax. On the other hand you enter into the Czech Republic (and other countries) were a vignette is required and they don't have guys standing around but do have plenty of signs regarding a vignette being legally required. I guess it's up to each driver if they want to take the risk and keep going instead of buying one. It's probably worth the risk given how tiny the vignette sticker is, I don't know how a police car is supposed to see that when you're doing 130kph, not that they're even checking.

[zepunishment]

he did know time...he payed them off to stop him having to do time...he cut a mans throat yet you bastards defend him being able to drive, he isn't fit for any car, yet alone a F1 car and the money that comes with it, he is ****.

[Imperial]

Finally, travelling within the EU (even into and out of the non-Schengen UK) you do not actually need a passport, even at an airport, you can use a national identity card (which I don't think the UK has? Or if we do it's not very common).

I'm pretty sure the minimum is just any reasonable document with photo-id, which could include a driving licence. I do know my missus (Polish) likes to travel by air using just her Polish ID. I'm not sure about other UK airports, but whenever I return to Newcastle they're always shouting to have your passport ready, not your ID.

The UK indeed does not have an ID card. We successfully fought that one off when the Labour government tried to introduce it a few years ago. One instance where the publics voice was heard.

[Group B]

he did know time...he payed them off to stop him having to do time...he cut a mans throat yet you bastards defend him being able to drive, he isn't fit for any car, yet alone a F1 car and the money that comes with it, he is ****.

He did a c**tish thing once when he was drunk, that doesn't mean he should be shot at dawn. Everyone makes mistakes, as you will learn when you grow up; the test is whether or not you make a habit of it. I doubt anyone here knows Sutil remotely well enough to pass a genuinely informed judgement on his character so I fail to see why we should assume the absolute worst and write him off as a hyper c**t who doesn't deserve dousing when on fire based entirely on a single incident that none of us even witnessed.

[Treads]

I'm pretty sure the minimum is just any reasonable document with photo-id, which could include a driving licence. I do know my missus (Polish) likes to travel by air using just her Polish ID. I'm not sure about other UK airports, but whenever I return to Newcastle they're always shouting to have your passport ready, not your ID.

The UK indeed does not have an ID card. We successfully fought that one off when the Labour government tried to introduce it a few years ago. One instance where the publics voice was heard.

Not sure about other EU countries, but for sure to enter the UK you can use an official national ID card from an EU country, drivers licenses or other photo IDs are not valid.

[Sin]

Not sure about other EU countries, but for sure to enter the UK you can use an official national ID card from an EU country, drivers licenses or other photo IDs are not valid.

that means then he doesn't need his drivers license for that, because every German over 16 got a Personalausweis, which is a national ID card of and EU country

[kartinhero]

217

195

[Dolph]

this is good, more please

[Oho]

Not sure about other EU countries, but for sure to enter the UK you can use an official national ID card from an EU country, drivers licenses or other photo IDs are not valid.

Drivers license does not cut it because it usually has no mention of nationality. Its just drivers license.

[Sin]

Drivers license does not cut it because it usually has no mention of nationality. Its just drivers license.

yeah like I said before Sutil most definitly has a Personalausweis, which is the german national ID

[BRG]

Won't the Chinese want to know why the crime for which Sutil was convicted was not reported - since it happened in China?

[KnucklesAgain]

Won't the Chinese want to know why the crime for which Sutil was convicted was not reported - since it happened in China?

Not sure how/if it would be a problem for Sutil that/if the victim and the club failed to report it.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 04 March 2013 - 11:49.

[Currahee]

Okay and how about the countries that reserve admission at the point of entry?eg Abu dhabi and Australia I think can refuse your entry at the airport as they deem fit..

Wasn't too long ago Australia was taking all sorts of criminals.