51 replies to this topic

[eaglefan]

Can anyone help me with my research into the ownership history of the Eagle F1 cars ?

I'm happy with my research on chassis's 101 and 104, but need further information on 102 and 103.

Does anyone have any information on who owned 102 after it was sold to Scuderia Filipinetti in 1968, and before it was offered for sale in 1983 by Roland Duce ? This 15 year period is a complete blank at the moment

Regarding 103, does anyone know in which year Ben Liebert acquired the car ? Jeffrey Keiner sold the car around around 1994 but I'm unsure who then owned it before Liebert. Also, the early ownership history of 103 is quite cloudy, names I already have include Danny Ongais an Chuck Jones, but I think there may be others.

[David McKinney]

Ben Liebert bought 103 from a US owner in 1998

Before that I have Mark Leonard as owner in 1981, Dick Barbour 1985, Jeffrey Keiner later 1985 and until at least 1995

[eaglefan]

Ben Liebert bought 103 from a US owner in 1998

Before that I have Mark Leonard as owner in 1981, Dick Barbour 1985, Jeffrey Keiner later 1985 and until at least 1995

Thanks for your reply David.

I had an hunch that Ben Liebert bought the car around 1998, but haven't been able to establish the previous owner. My research so far shows that Jeffrey Keiner bought the car in 1988 through a broker from Chuck Jones. He sold the car around 1994, but the buyer is unknown to me.

I had seen Mark Leonard's name mentioned before, but couldn't find any more information on him. Do you know any more about him ?

[Allen Brown]

102 was bought from the Filipinetti Collection by John Harper in late 1980 or early 1981 (he wanted the engine for his Cooper Monaco). He sold the chassis to Malcolm Johnson who sold it on to Trevor Needham and Roland Duce.

Who did Duce sell 102 to? The first I know about it being in the Collier Automotive Museum is mid-1990.

I agree with David that Jeffrey Keiner had 103 later than 1994. My last note of him having it is dated 1996.

[eaglefan]

102 was bought from the Filipinetti Collection by John Harper in late 1980 or early 1981 (he wanted the engine for his Cooper Monaco). He sold the chassis to Malcolm Johnson who sold it on to Trevor Needham and Roland Duce.

Who did Duce sell 102 to? The first I know about it being in the Collier Automotive Museum is mid-1990.

I agree with David that Jeffrey Keiner had 103 later than 1994. My last note of him having it is dated 1996.

Thanks for all the information on 102 Allen.
Did you mean Martin Johnson ? as he told me he sold the car to Roland Duce, but couldn't remember who he bought the car from, or the years of ownership. John Harper and Trevor Needham are new names for my list.

Roland Duce sold the car in 1983 to David Morgan-Kirby in Canada, and the Collier Museum bought it from him in 1989 (see Doug Nye's article about this in Motor Sport magazine - November 2012).

Jeffrey Keiner told me he believed the car was sold around late 1993/early 1994, so that's where my information comes from, but it may not be totally accurate.

[RA Historian]

Doesn't Lou Sellyei own 102?

I had thought that 101 was with Griot, 102 with Sellyei, 103 with Leibert, and 104 with Collier.

Tom

[eaglefan]

Doesn't Lou Sellyei own 102?

I had thought that 101 was with Griot, 102 with Sellyei, 103 with Leibert, and 104 with Collier.

Tom

Ben Liebert sold the car at auction in 2002, and it's now owned by Bernie Carl.

[mfd]

104 with Collier.

Does #104 look like it did in 1968 with wings & things?

[eaglefan]

Does #104 look like it did in 1968 with wings & things?

No, it's in 1967 Belgian GP winning spec.

[RA Historian]

Ben Liebert sold the car at auction in 2002, and it's now owned by Bernie Carl.

Thanks for the update; I was only 10 years behind!

Edited by RA Historian, 10 March 2013 - 02:36.

[raceannouncer2003]

Monterey 2010, the Gurney year...



So #23 is 102 and #36 is 104 ? Interesting to compare the #31 Indy car alongside...pretty similar body shape.



Which one is #27...the Griot car, 101 ? Edit...yes, it is...see this link:

http://www.tamsoldra...t/inf00036.html



Gurney being interviewed as son, Alex I think, prepares to go out in 102 with the other Gurney cars...must still belong to Sellyei. Unfortunately, they were only given a couple of laps.

Vince H.

Edited by raceannouncer2003, 05 March 2013 - 07:49.

[eaglefan]

Monterey 2010, the Gurney year...

So #23 is 102 and #36 is 104 ? Interesting to compare the #31 Indy car alongside...pretty similar body shape.

Which one is #27...the Griot car, 101 ? Edit...yes, it is...see this link:

http://www.tamsoldra...t/inf00036.html

Gurney being interviewed as son, Alex I think, prepares to go out in 102 with the other Gurney cars...must still belong to Sellyei. Unfortunately, they were only given a couple of laps.

Vince H.

It was good to see 3 F1 Eagles together at Monterey 2010 - pity 103 wasn't there to make up the quartet.

On the subject of 103, does anyone know who bought this car when it left A.A.R. in the late 1960's ?

Also, A.A.R. have stated that a fifth F1 Eagle was built up (not by them) from an original spare tub and parts in the 1980's. Does anyone have any information on this ?

Edited by eaglefan, 10 March 2013 - 17:15.

[Allen Brown]

Thanks for all the information on 102 Allen.
Did you mean Martin Johnson ?

Yes, typo. My info came from Martin Johnson some time in the early 1980s before I learnt to date my notes, from John Harper the same day (because it's on the same piece of paper!) and from Trevor Needham in June 1994. Also it was Scott George who told me they acquired 102 in mid-1990 and as he told me that in June 1994, I am inclined to stick with that date. I have also referenced Vintage Motorsport (May/June 1992) but I don't have that to hand so can't say why.

I have never heard of a fifth F1 Eagle and if so much as a rumour had reached me in the 1980s I would have written it down. I would be very interested to know more.

[eaglefan]

Yes, typo. My info came from Martin Johnson some time in the early 1980s before I learnt to date my notes, from John Harper the same day (because it's on the same piece of paper!) and from Trevor Needham in June 1994. Also it was Scott George who told me they acquired 102 in mid-1990 and as he told me that in June 1994, I am inclined to stick with that date. I have also referenced Vintage Motorsport (May/June 1992) but I don't have that to hand so can't say why.

I have never heard of a fifth F1 Eagle and if so much as a rumour had reached me in the 1980s I would have written it down. I would be very interested to know more.

This press release by A.A.R. in 2000 is where you need to look - the 4th paragraph in particular.


http://allamericanra...agle-goes-home/

[Tom Glowacki]

This press release by A.A.R. in 2000 is where you need to look - the 4th paragraph in particular.


http://allamericanra...agle-goes-home/

I've got an old track test of this car, which I could scan if anyone is interested.

[Allen Brown]

Yes please!

[eaglefan]

I've got an old track test of this car, which I could scan if anyone is interested.

Tom, is this a track test of the 5th F1 Eagle in question, or one of the other four ?

If it's the 5th car, I'd be interested in seeing a copy of it.

[Tom Glowacki]

Tom, is this a track test of the 5th F1 Eagle in question, or one of the other four ?

If it's the 5th car, I'd be interested in seeing a copy of it.

It's the 5th car, 105 or whatever you want to call it. I'll dig in the attic tonight for it.

Success! It's not the Library of Congress in there, if you follow me.

The test is the from the June, 1992, issue of the since defunct Sports Car International. For now, the more pertinent quotes are:

"built by Dan Gurney from spares a few years ago"

"for ease of maintenance, Keiner's Spyder Motorsports had the suspension plated in nickel-chrome", so who did how much of the build-up is not clear.

Jeffrey Keiner was/is the owner. The rest of the article is the history of the F-1 Eagle and the track test itself.

If any of you remember how the Joe Leonard 1966 #6 Indy Car looked, this one has the numbers done in the same style, otherwise it is straight F-1. Except for only using one fuel cell, with the other blanked off, it's exact 1967, with all due respect to Denis Jenkinson.

My wife is the one with the color scanner and once she gets through some work stuff tonight, she says she'll scan it.

Edited by Tom Glowacki, 08 March 2013 - 01:58.

[Supersox]

Thanks for your reply David.

I had an hunch that Ben Liebert bought the car around 1998, but haven't been able to establish the previous owner. My research so far shows that Jeffrey Keiner bought the car in 1988 through a broker from Chuck Jones. He sold the car around 1994, but the buyer is unknown to me.

I had seen Mark Leonard's name mentioned before, but couldn't find any more information on him. Do you know any more about him ?

Mark Leonard owns Grand Prix Classics in La Jolla

[raceannouncer2003]

Mark Leonard owns Grand Prix Classics in La Jolla

There are two picture of the Eagle on this page, under Gurney Eagle:

http://grandprixclas...tory/cars-sold/

Vince H.

[eaglefan]

There are two picture of the Eagle on this page, under Gurney Eagle:

http://grandprixclas...tory/cars-sold/

Vince H.

Thanks Vince.

These pictures appear to date from 1997 when Mark Leonard assisted the Collier Collection in selling 102. It was subsequently bought by Bill Ziering.

I'm still trying to find information on Mark Leonard's ownership of 103 (during the early 1980's ?).

Does anyone have any information regarding Bill Ziering's ownership of 102 between 1997 and 2003. Did the car appear in public during this period ?

[eaglefan]

[quote name='Tom Glowacki' date='Mar 8 2013, 01:25' post='6156497']
It's the 5th car, 105 or whatever you want to call it. I'll dig in the attic tonight for it.

The test is the from the June, 1992, issue of the since defunct Sports Car International. For now, the more pertinent quotes are:

"built by Dan Gurney from spares a few years ago"

Jeffrey Keiner was/is the owner.


Having read this article I'm afraid the confusion continues.

How can this car have been "built by Dan Gurney from spares a few years ago" when Jeffrey Keiner says that it's chassis 103, which first appeared in the hands of Richie Ginther at the 1967 Race of Champions at Brands Hatch ?

[Tom Glowacki]

"Having read this article I'm afraid the confusion continues.

How can this car have been "built by Dan Gurney from spares a few years ago" when Jeffrey Keiner says that it's chassis 103, which first appeared in the hands of Richie Ginther at the 1967 Race of Champions at Brands Hatch ?"

Keiner, at least in the article, does not say that it is 103. The article is pretty clear that it's "105" and cites some minor changes made in the process of completing the car. I wonder if "105" was not originally going to 104. I recall the early articles on the AAR F-1 project saying 4 cars were under construction. What we know as 104 today did not appear until into the 1967 season. That leaves me thinking that this car was going to 104, but was not far along when the Harvey Aluminum connection was made to build the Mag-Ti 104, with the pile of parts that was to be 104 being set aside for spares

[Tom Glowacki]

"Having read this article I'm afraid the confusion continues.

How can this car have been "built by Dan Gurney from spares a few years ago" when Jeffrey Keiner says that it's chassis 103, which first appeared in the hands of Richie Ginther at the 1967 Race of Champions at Brands Hatch ?"


I just noticed that the second last paragraph of the article starts with “What’s more, Eagle T1G-103 is a front runner.” , so you have a point there. The article starts with "spare parts", ends with "103" and a short history of 103.

Edited by Tom Glowacki, 16 March 2013 - 15:48.

[Allen Brown]

Boot/trunk, sidewalk/pavement, pram/buggy, term/semester... I think this may be a misunderstanding due to the difference between the American motor racing world's use of the word "built" and the British motor racing world's.

Remember in the mid/late 1960s that some very fine US fabricators were credited with having "built" cars for Indy that to a European eye were just rebuilt Lotuses. Brits think of "built" as meaning "built from scratch" but that does not appear to be the US meaning which is closer to the British "rebuilt".

So I think this is just Kleiner's 103, as bought from Dick Barbour, having been 'rebuilt' at AAR to running condition. It's not a new car.

[Wouter Melissen]

Here are pictures of all four from recent outings.

The Mk1 Climax: http://www.ultimatec...k-1-Climax.html

The Mk1 Weslake: http://www.ultimatec...-1-Weslake.html

[RA Historian]

Just for some clarification, I understand that Dan Gurney is emphatic that his F-1 Eagles were never designated "T1G". There never was any model designation given to the cars. Rather, they are simply known as 101, 102, 103, and 104.

This is contained in John Zimmermann's excellent book, produced with full cooperation from Gurney, Dan Gurney's Eagle Racing Cars.

Tom

[eaglefan]

Just for some clarification, I understand that Dan Gurney is emphatic that his F-1 Eagles were never designated "T1G". There never was any model designation given to the cars. Rather, they are simply known as 101, 102, 103, and 104.

This is contained in John Zimmermann's excellent book, produced with full cooperation from Gurney, Dan Gurney's Eagle Racing Cars.

Tom

I've read on several occasions that Dan believes the T1G designation was adopted by the British press.

However, looking at an "Eagle Project" article in the May 1966 edition of Road & Track (p71) the images of the F1 and Indy cars are clearly labelled as T1G and T2G. This proves the designation existed as the cars were being built, so it's my belief that someone at AAR had given this to the American press.

[Tim Murray]

The designation T1G was given to the car by Len Terry but, as Tom says, this was never accepted by Dan. See DCN's explanation from an earlier thread:

Okay - not messing about now... Eagle designations.

In 1965 Dan commissioned former Lotus designer Len Terry to create his new team's F1 and Indy cars for him. Len had begun his career designing his own sports and Junior cars under the name 'Terrier'. He created the Gilby cars for Syd Greene and his son Keith. Though they were known publicly as 'Gilby', Len - being an orderly-minded kind of chap - gave them a 'Terrier' project number of his own.

Colin Chapman spotted real talent and engaged Len to make the stressed-skin hulled Lotus 25 truly raceworthy. They developed it ultimately into the Type 33. Len regarded those cars - and the 1965 Indy-winning Lotus 38 as designs somebody else had started - so he recalls today he didn't really give them 'Terrier' project numbers. Then Dan made him a good offer, and he went off to California for the AAR Eagle project(s).

Point one - to Len those initial series Eagles would be his design from the ground up - so when he drew them the F1 variant was in his work portfolio the 'Terrier T9'. Check Len's book but from memory he thinks this is correct...

His original drawings for the project would have adopted his normal working procedure, based upon that used by Ford, in which each drawing identification serial would have been prefaced by 'Car model', then a letter to indicate which area of the car the drawing featured - as in 'A' chassis - 'B'body - 'C' front suspension - 'D' rear suspension, etc - and then a basically 3-digit serial to specify the individual drawing. Thus the very first chassis drawing for example would have been serialled '(Car Model code)-A-001'.

The car model code that Len chose - repeat, that Len chose - was 'T' for 'Terry', '1' for first version, and 'G' for Gurney - Eagle T1G - Indy version = T2G.

It would probably have been AAR F1 team manager Bill Dunne who told us about this being the car's type number - a la Lotus 25 or BRM P83 - in 1966.

The monocoques were fabricated solely in California - absolutely not in the UK - with ex-Team Lotus sheet metal man John Lambert amongst the build team. The Rye facility in England was little more than a race preparation shop with Weslake's adjoining engine shop not really giving Dan the tools this superb driver deserved.

Dan probably won't accept the above - but it's what we were told at the time - and what Len has just confirmed to me this bright and sunny morning...

Sorry about winding you all up previously...

DCN

[Allen Brown]

EDIT: Posted before seeing Tim's post

I am led to understand that "T1G" appears on one of Len Terry's drawings and it seems likely that it meant Type 1 with Gurney engine. I believe it was the Formula 1 Register that popularised 'T1F' and 'T1G' as designations for the F1 Eagles.

As far as I can tell, Eagle did not talk about type numbers for their cars but there was some sort of internal system as given away by the chassis numbers. So the F1 Eagle was the Type 1 or Mark 1 and had chassis numbers starting with '1', the 1966 Indy car was the Type 2 or Mk 2 and had chassis numbers starting '2', the 1967 Indy cars continued the '2' series, the 1968 Indy cars started '4' and the 1968-1969 Formula A cars were called Mk 5s and started '5'. The last time that system was used was for the 1970 Indy cars which started '8', after which the 1972 Indy cars had numbers starting '72'.

Edited by Allen Brown, 17 March 2013 - 22:25.

[eaglefan]

Does anyone have any information regarding Bill Ziering's ownership of 102 between 1997 and 2003. Did the car appear in public during this period ?
[/quote]


Answering my own question, what appears to be 102 was displayed at the Monterey Historics in 2002, which was during Bill Ziering's ownership.
The photo is captioned as 103, but this is clearly incorrect, as during this period all other F1 Eagles had triangular shaped roll hoops.
The metal plate infill and cushion attached to the roll hoop is something I haven't seen on 102 before.


http://atspeedimages...a9-0019e3f8e432

[elansprint72]

Eaglefan,
I don't think that I can be of help with this particular Eagle question but... have you got a copy of "Lucky all my Life", the biography of Harry Weslake, on your shelves? It is an absolute gem (if I had to save two motoring books from a house fire, this would be one of them!).
When I read this book, in conjunction with Ludvigsen's "Gurney's Eagles", things start to make sense.

[eaglefan]

Eaglefan,
I don't think that I can be of help with this particular Eagle question but... have you got a copy of "Lucky all my Life", the biography of Harry Weslake, on your shelves? It is an absolute gem (if I had to save two motoring books from a house fire, this would be one of them!).
When I read this book, in conjunction with Ludvigsen's "Gurney's Eagles", things start to make sense.

No, I don't have this book in my collection but have often thought about buying it.
How much of the book is devoted to the Gurney Eagle engine project ?

[eaglefan]

Does anyone have any documentary evidence that Mark Leonard or Dick Barbour owned 103 in the 1980's ?

[Supersox]

Does anyone have any documentary evidence that Mark Leonard or Dick Barbour owned 103 in the 1980's ?

Just call Mark at Grand Prix Classics and ask him, its as easy as that.

[eaglefan]

Just call Mark at Grand Prix Classics and ask him, its as easy as that.

I do not consider it polite to call people directly to ask questions they may not want to answer.
However, he has not responded to two requests for information by email.

[Allen Brown]

In that case I am impolite nearly every day!

[Supersox]

I do not consider it polite to call people directly to ask questions they may not want to answer.
However, he has not responded to two requests for information by email.

Well,you are a twerp or you just don't want to know as badly as you say you do.
Mark is a busy guy selling cars, he doesn't want to sit down and answer emails but he'll talk cars all day long.

[xj13v12]

I am told that Lou's beautiful car is up for auction at Monterey next month!!!!!
There was an earlier comment that the Indy car was similar in shape to the F1 car. No - it is IDENTICAL. Beaten from the same bucks and using the same 'glass nose cone. The car was designed as a dual purpose F1/Indy car which explains why it is so much larger than most F1 cars of the time. It carried a huge amount of fuel for Indy carried in fuel bags in either side of the tub. Also the car was designed around the very tall Dan and even bigger Jerry Grant. Yes Grant was going to drive a second car in F1. 11 of the Indy cars were built in 1966-67.

[raceannouncer2003]

I am told that Lou's beautiful car is up for auction at Monterey next month!!!!!

Yes, here is a link:

http://www.goodingco.com/node/3375

I wonder how much it will fetch. Funny it is not more prominent in pre-event publicity.

Vince H.

[xj13v12]

Yes, here is a link:

http://www.goodingco.com/node/3375

I wonder how much it will fetch. Funny it is not more prominent in pre-event publicity.

Vince H.

Agree. I am guessing they will ramp it up over the next few weeks.

[raceannouncer2003]

So the Sellyei car up for auction is 103, right? (Not 102).

Vince H.

[ray b]

which cars have/had what motors ?

I thought there were 2 cc-4/2.7 cars run in 66 before the W-12 was ready
and 2 cars built for the W-12 motors

does any of the cars retain the cc-4/2.7 or are they all W-12 now

[David McKinney]

AFAIK there was just one Climax car in 1966 before the first V12 appeared, plus two more V12s first raced in 1967

[raceannouncer2003]

So the Sellyei car up for auction is 103, right? (Not 102).

Or is the auction page wrong in saying it's 103 ?

Vince H.

[eaglefan]

Does anyone know where I can purchase a photo of Phil Hill driving the Eagle Climax during practice for the 1966 Italian GP ?

I've searched all the photo archives I can think of, but no-one seems to have it.

There is a photo in the "American Grand Prix Racing" book by Tim Considine (p136) credited to the Robert Young collection, but all efforts to follow this up have failed.

[eaglefan]

Or is the auction page wrong in saying it's 103 ?

Vince H.

The car for sale at Pebble Beach is 102, which has been owned for the last 10 years by Lou Sellyei.

[raceannouncer2003]

The car for sale at Pebble Beach is 102, which has been owned for the last 10 years by Lou Sellyei.

Yes, I just noticed the auction page now says it's 102.

Vince H.

[raceannouncer2003]

Does anyone know where I can purchase a photo of Phil Hill driving the Eagle Climax during practice for the 1966 Italian GP ?

I've searched all the photo archives I can think of, but no-one seems to have it.

There is a photo in the "American Grand Prix Racing" book by Tim Considine (p136) credited to the Robert Young collection, but all efforts to follow this up have failed.

The Young photo is apparently the one at post 7897 on this webpage:

http://www.f1db.com/...ght=Hard Trivia

Vince H.

[Peter Morley]

Yes, here is a link:

http://www.goodingco.com/node/3375

I wonder how much it will fetch. Funny it is not more prominent in pre-event publicity.

Vince H.

$3,740,000...