99 replies to this topic

[Gene and Tonic]

The classic is Alain Prost. Felipe Massa, although not a 'great' driver, also struggles in the rain. I'm sure there have been more.

Why do we think this is? Usually driving skills should be enough to shine through on a wet surface, yet even some drivers that are average in the dry become very impressive in the wet - Sutil for instance, and indeed Schumacher in the second phase of his career.

Is it because wet-weather driving requires a completely different skill set? Am quite interested to hear a thought-out response as it's just been on my mind this morning and was bugging me!

[KnucklesAgain]

I'd say that for some it's largely down to slightly different priorities. IMHO Prost falls into that category. And the classic is actually Lauda post-Nürburgring.

Edit: in the sense of not "liking" rain as jcbc3 explained in the next post.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 08 March 2013 - 10:55.

[jcbc3]

You have to seperate the issues. Your headline is in fact correct in as much as talking about Prost didn't 'like' rain. But that didn't mean he was not a very fast driver in rain. I am certain there are other examples of drivers that much preferred dry to wet but was still as capable of competing in the wet.


[edit]
Damn you, knuckles!
[/edit]


[edit2]
If you prefer to be nice about stealing my place in the line I guess I have to retract my cusses.
[edit2]

Edited by jcbc3, 08 March 2013 - 10:56.

[eronrules]

Massa
David Coulthard

[Imperial]

Any easy access to stats showing the number of wins in races officially declared as wet?

That can be the only starting point for a balanced discussion of 'like' or 'dislike' such conditions Vs being 'capable' in them.

[Radion]

Compared to Lewis, almost any driver looks weak in the wet...

Edited by Radion, 08 March 2013 - 11:03.

[DampMongoose]

'67 World Champion Denny Hulme wasn't keen, when he was driving in the 1000km sportscar race at Brands in 1970 he said to his teamate Vic Elford (who didn't mind rain in the slightest) "You start the car, then bring it in so you can have a drink and a piss and then go back out and finish the race" Elford ended up driving 5 and a half hours of the 6 hour race.

This was the day of Amon's quote "Someone should tell Pedro it's raining!"

[Peat]

It's a very different skillset. Firstly, you have to be able to deal with understeer. For some people, that totally destroys thier confidence and they struggle to overcome it.

[Massa]

Massa : Monaco 08 or Brazil 08 show he is good in the rain. And his Q1 lap at Monza the same year was fantastic.

[oligc94]

It's a very different skillset. Firstly, you have to be able to deal with understeer. For some people, that totally destroys thier confidence and they struggle to overcome it.

Oversteer?

[EvanRainer]

Compared to Lewis, almost any driver looks weak in the wet...

Only took 6 posts for someone to appear and spew a myth. Amazing ti took so long. Hard work perpetuating those myths.




When talking about who likes rain keep in mind that not liking something doesn't necessarily mean you are good at it, and vice versa

[sopa]

Certainly Hakkinen and Villeneuve weren't very impressive in the wet. Even though both were wdc's, many of their contemporary non-wdc drivers were superior to them in the wet, like Frentzen, Barrichello, R.Schumacher, Verstappen, Alesi, etc.

[Imperial]

Certainly Hakkinen and Villeneuve weren't very impressive in the wet. Even though both were wdc's, many of their contemporary non-wdc drivers were superior to them in the wet, like Frentzen, Barrichello, R.Schumacher, Verstappen, Alesi, etc.

Although factor in that rain is the great equaliser, as the cars that had downforce worth speaking about can kiss it goodbye.

As with anything in motorsport, there are so many factors involved.

[Peat]

Oversteer?

No.

[Masenco]

Oversteer?

Isn't it meant to be understeer on entry and snap oversteer on exit?

[Amphicar]

After his 1966 crash in the wet at Spa, Jackie Stewart was, understandably, not fond of racing in the rain. However, that didn't prevent him from winning an extremely wet German Grand Prix on the full Nordschleife in 1968 - by a margin of four minutes. Oh and it wasn't just tipping down at the "green hell" that day - it was foggy too. I know, I was there to see hear JYS's win.

[Peat]

Isn't it meant to be understeer on entry and snap oversteer on exit?

Yeah. The throttle oversteer is something most people can deal with relatively proficiently.

The getting the car slowed down and the understeer on entry is the spooky bit.

[SR388]

Only took 6 posts for someone to appear and spew a myth. Amazing ti took so long. Hard work perpetuating those myths.




When talking about who likes rain keep in mind that not liking something doesn't necessarily mean you are good at it, and vice versa

People spew plenty of myths about Senna, no one seems to mind.




How was ralf schumacher in the rain?

[scheivlak]

How was ralf schumacher in the rain?

Not too bad in Spa 1998.

[Lights]

The rain topic usually turns into a lot of generalization on particular drivers. Instead, I think it's pretty safe to say that all good and great drivers have had great and also poor performances in the wet. Because it has much more to do with a car/setup/tyre combination that just seems to work on the day, that determines the success. Then the only thing you could do to separate them is to see if in general a driver gets it right more often while driving for different teams with different tyre suppliers etc etc. It will be very hard to conclude a particular driver doesn't like rain.

[Jackmancer]

Alonso, maybe?
Did he ever impress during rain?
I remember Fuiji 2007...

[Owen]

Webber.

[okochajj]

People spew plenty of myths about Senna, no one seems to mind.




How was ralf schumacher in the rain?

there is no myth about senna , he is THAT good

[Masenco]

Yeah. The throttle oversteer is something most people can deal with relatively proficiently.

The getting the car slowed down and the understeer on entry is the spooky bit.

But they can also lose alot of time through there if they're not the best wet weather drivers right?
Where do you feel the best wet weather drivers gain the most time?

[SR388]

Alonso, maybe?
Did he ever impress during rain?
I remember Fuiji 2007...

Webber ain't exactly a stud in the rain.

I remember Alonso complaining about rain in the 2010 Korean race.

[Owen]

Alonso, maybe?
Did he ever impress during rain?
I remember Fuiji 2007...

Personally I wouldn't put Alonso in this category. He seems pretty damn quick in the rain usually.

[Amphicar]

Certainly Hakkinen and Villeneuve weren't very impressive in the wet. Even though both were wdc's, many of their contemporary non-wdc drivers were superior to them in the wet, like Frentzen, Barrichello, R.Schumacher, Verstappen, Alesi, etc.

Jacques Villeneuve may not have been a rain meister but his father certainly was - just one example being his astonishing practice run at Watkins Glen in 1979, when he was 11 seconds faster than anyone else: http://www.espn.co.u...story/6630.html

[oligc94]

No.

Well, we're both right aren't we? Understeer on entry and oversteer when they try to get the power down. Both are problematic, and drivers have to be proficient at dealing with both, but it's no coincidence that many drivers spin in the wet (suggesting that oversteer is the problem, obviously).

[TheUltimateWorrier]

Somebody mentioned Sutil? This is one of my favourite moments of his, as soon as it stops raining he turns into A-Derp Sutil.

Alonso, maybe?
Did he ever impress during rain?
I remember Fuiji 2007...

Don't forget his little tantrum at Silverstone last year.

"I not on pole? Waaah! Waaah! Red flag!!!! Waaah! :cry :"

[lustigson]

Speaking of myths, Alain Prost touched upon the issue of him not liking racing in the wet in a recent interview on Autosport.com (sub.req.

“… Didier's accident in 1982 horrified me. [Pironi, lapping quickly, had caught Prost, who had just been overtaken by Derek Daly's Williams. Thinking Daly was moving off line to get out of the Ferrari's way, Pironi powered into the spray and straight into the back of the unseen Renault. The Ferrari took off, landed on its nose and did terrible damage to Pironi's ankles and feet. He never raced again in motorsport.]

I had stopped, of course, and seeing Didier was awful, really awful, I went straight to the Renault motorhome. There was only myself and team boss Gerard Larrousse. He said I should try to get back in the car as soon as possible. I said: "I'm going to go in the car but I'm telling you, from today, I'm going to do what I want to do when it's wet. I want to be the only judge of the best thing to do." I always kept this philosophy even though you cannot apply it all the time.

In 1988 at Silverstone, I can't remember if there was a shunt at the first corner or whatever, but the car was not correct and I didn't understand why. Neil Oatley told me afterwards that the car was bad, which was why I could not drive it. I was nowhere. I decided to stop because you know how it is when it's wet like this; it's fifth gear and you need confidence. I was losing confidence and the car was going nowhere, so I stopped.

People said I couldn't drive in the wet. But I was really good — OK, that's my opinion — when it was wet or slippery. No problem. I like it very much when it's like that. But when it was wet and you had the combination of aquaplaning and poor visibility, I never wanted to take the risk. I was always thinking of Didier. But how do you say that to the press? It's hard, but I lived with it even though I was losing a little bit of credibility with the press, but not really with the team.”

[steferrari]

Alonso, maybe?
Did he ever impress during rain?
I remember Fuiji 2007...

Silverstone & Hockenheim wet poles in 2012.

[KnucklesAgain]

Alonso, maybe?
Did he ever impress during rain?
I remember Fuiji 2007...

LOL. Do you remember 2012 too?

[krapmeister]

Webber.

He's kinda 50-50 in the wet - had some pretty good ones and then some pretty poor ones. Wouldn't say he doesn't like rain, though he certainly wasn't too keen to get going in the wet in Korea 2010 - but think that was more to do with the championship situation then anything else...

[Afterburner]

Alonso, maybe?
Did he ever impress during rain?
I remember Fuiji 2007...

I suggest you take a look at Hungary 2006. One of the best drives I've ever seen, wrecked through incompetence.

[Bruce]

Speaking of myths, Alain Prost touched upon the issue of him not liking racing in the wet in a recent interview on Autosport.com (sub.req.

Thanks Lustigson - was just going to add that; Prost had a compelling reason not to like the wet...

Prost was hit by Pironi in wet practice for the 1982 German Grand Prix at Hockenheim. Pironi pulled out of the ball of spray that was Daly and drove straight into the ball of unsighted spray that was Prost, slowing to let Daly by. Pironi's car (just like Villeneuves at Zolder) got airborne and flew for some distance before coming down on it's nose. Prost was likely one of the first to the scene and what he saw there changed him. Sid Watkins seriously considered amputating Pironi's legs just to get him out of the car, and though he didn't, in the end, Pironi never raced an F1 car again.

[Owen]

I suggest you take a look at Hungary 2006. One of the best drives I've ever seen, wrecked through incompetence.

Agreed, his driving there was exceptional. Especially when you view the on-board camera. Reflexes were amazing!

[Les]

I think we can safely say Alonso is not in this category. As well as some of the drives mentioned above there was his win in Malaysia last year where he turned the poor conditions to his advantage when he had no right to win. Also he used wet qualifying in Germany to his advantage to snatch pole in the wet which gave him the advantage he needed to win at Hockenheim. Also there was the late rain shower at the Nurburgring in 2007 where he was able to take advantage of the poor grip to force his way past Massa.

[P123]

Too many plain dumb posts in this thread naming drivers who are great/ poor in the rain. Even the supposedly bad drivers have had some very decent wet weather performances, and those who are supposedly great have also had their own stinkers. So much of it depends on setup, tyre pressure, right tyre right time, etc

Of the current bunch, Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and JB have had some stand-out drives in the wet. Especially Alonso's '06 drive in Hungary, Hamilton at Silverstone and Vettel at Monza.

Unfortunately F1 no longer races in trully wet conditions, although the drivers had no problems testing in such weather at Barcelona...

[Longtimefan]

Damon Hill

[MortenF1]

Massa
David Coulthard

It's not like DC disliked rain, that's wrong, but he definitely had performances in opposite ends in the wet. He was not quick in that Belgian GP in '98, but then he had some very, very good drives in wet-races (most recent example Fuji '07), and also some fine qualifying-performances, like Magny-Cours '98 and Hockenheim '00.

[scheivlak]

Damon Hill

Was absolutely masterful in Suzuka 1994.

Of course he had some less convincing showings as well -like Spain 1996- but setup choices can play a role too.

[William Hunt]

Shouldn't this be in the Nostalghia section, this is about the past after all. You would get much better replies as well.

[mkoscevic]

It's not like DC disliked rain, that's wrong, but he definitely had performances in opposite ends in the wet. He was not quick in that Belgian GP in '98, but then he had some very, very good drives in wet-races (most recent example Fuji '07), and also some fine qualifying-performances, like Magny-Cours '98 and Hockenheim '00.

IIRC Interlagos 2001?

[Misk]

Damon Hill

With the exception of Suzuka 94, Hill was the driver that sprung to mind for me too.

Also, I'm sure I'll be proven wrong, but for a driver that has been considered one of the best in the field for over a decade I don't recall Räikkönen ever dominating a wet race.

Edited by Misk, 08 March 2013 - 14:51.

[MortenF1]

IIRC Interlagos 2001?

ah, how could I forget?! That pass on Schumacher!

[Radion]

Also, I'm sure I'll be proven wrong, but for a driver that has been considered one of the best in the field for over a decade I don't recall Räikkönen ever dominating a wet race.

He "dominated" spa 2008 to a certain point, overtaking both massa and hamilton in the wet, taking over the lead. After that, he put a gap between himself and hamilton quickly, also in "wet" conditions (as far as I can remember). But then again, he crashed at the same race later on when it started raining again.

Also, I remember him showing great pace in brasil 2003. Not sure whether he dominated that race or not, but at least he didn't crash in those tricky conditions (a lot of drivers acutally crashed that day).

[Bunchies]

Also, I remember him showing great pace in brasil 2003. Not sure whether he dominated that race or not, but at least he didn't crash in those tricky conditions (a lot of drivers acutally crashed that day).

Kimi was the standout driver that day. I've watched that race at least 10 times.

[MortenF1]

Kimi was the standout driver that day. I've watched that race at least 10 times.

DC was quicker that race, I'm 99% sure. (If memory serves...)

[mkoscevic]

ah, how could I forget?! That pass on Schumacher!

An excellent move!

Race reports were going crazy with headlines like "Schumacher obviously learned nothing from Spa a few month earlier".

[MortenF1]

An excellent move!

Race reports were going crazy with headlines like "Schumacher obviously learned nothing from Spa a few month earlier".

Yep! A bit strange how "everyone" remembers Häkkinen's pass, but not DC's, also with another car between him and Schumacher, BUT, in the wet!
I guess the answer is that both Schumacher and Häkkinen were seen as titans and arch-rivals.