58 replies to this topic

[kedia990]

Just been reading this article, where Bottas says that he's lucky to get into F1 on the merits of his talent alone...
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105911

Just wanted to discuss about drivers in recent times who've achieved the same, i.e. drivers who've come into F1 without any significant backing.
Eg: Maldonado, although immensely talented (no I'm not a fan, but he did bloody well in Catalunya 2012), has backing from PDVSA
Perez, also talented, has backing from Telmex
Bruno Senna, rubbish at driving, entered with $14m in sponsorship
Who're the guys apart from Bottas who have come in based on talent alone? Do Kobayashi / Kovailanen etc. fall in this category?

[BigCHrome]

Kobayashi was bankrolled by Toyota and Kovalainen was supported by Renault.

[mattferg]

Err Bottas didn't come in on talent alone ahahaha, his manager is Toto Wolff, who owns half of Williams and until recently managed it. The same guy who hired his wife as test driver. Might've given Bottas a little advantage, no?

Definitely counts as significant backing when the guy who's your manager has big financial stakes in TWO F1 teams.

Also Bottas says in the article primarily on talent, not on talent alone, sorry!

Edited by mattferg, 09 March 2013 - 08:58.

[Iranie]

Talent is like titties, if you got big ones it's easier to get yourself out there. From these 2013 newbies Bottas is in my eyes the only one who has done it in old school-way. He beasted through karting and little-formulas and got noticed by big bosses like Häkkinen and Wolff who made his life easier. Kovalainen was talented and promising enough to get to the Renault's driver program and Kobayashi had the one opportunity to jump in F1 which he used and proved that he has what it takes.

If we look at drivers like Senna, Gutierrez and Maldonado they didn't necessarily have the bed of roses what comes to success in GP2 for example but with those bucket loads of money they got the place. Senna flopped, Maldonado has proven to be even champion material and we'll see about Gutierrez. Money makes the step to F1 easier but luckily we have good examples still that the money isn't everything.

[Anderis]

Who're the guys apart from Bottas who have come in based on talent alone?

First of all, Bottas hasn't come in based on talent alone.

He brings substantial sponsorship from Wihuri and Kemppi. Even Toto Wolff admitted it was necessary in order to replace Bruno for this year.

Edited by Anderis, 09 March 2013 - 10:02.

[learningtobelost]

Maldonado has proven to be even champion material

Have I missed something?

Maldonado had a handful of great races last year and there is no doubt that he has talent. But lets be honest he also had plenty of appalling drives last year. Champion material is stretching it a bit!

[MaxCrazyEddieCayer]

Jacques Villeneuve might fit that description better. Ok he had the surname, but he didn't came with backing, he came in on the back of his 500 win and his cart ppg title...

[SpaceHorseParty]

Everybody who has ever driven for Toro Rosso is arguably there because of their talent.

[michaelmyers]

First of all, Bottas hasn't come in based on talent alone.

He brings substantial sponsorship from Wihuri and Kemppi. Even Toto Wolff admitted it was necessary in order to replace Bruno for this year.

That is somewhat true. On the other hand it's also worth noting that the money flows from Finland aren't anywhere as high as the 14mil Bruno used to bring. Bottas' backing can't be higher than a few million tops and even that would be enormous considering this is Finland we are talking about.

[jonpollak]

Jacques Villeneuve might fit that description better. Ok he had the surname, but he didn't came with backing, he came in on the back of his 500 win and his cart ppg title...

And what rookie immediately put it on pole and nearly won his first race?
Jp

[MaxCrazyEddieCayer]

And what rookie immediately put it on pole and nearly won his first race?
Jp

Jacques Villeneuve

[IamFasterthanU]

Looking at pre F1 stats of both Perez and Bottas, one can't find anything which can be termed as exceptional but surprisingly they've been decent performers at the supposedly highest level. Does that say that driver performance in lower categories is not very strongly co related with performance in F1? or does it tell that the car is very good?

Driver prior to these guys - Vettel, Hamilton, Rosberg had outstanding pre -F1 records and were phenomenally successful. In fact most of the grid pre 2007-8 had a decent if not great pre-F1 record. Wickens, Alguersuari etc. could do a much better job yet one is in DTM and other is test driver for Pirelli.

[Collective]

Looking at pre F1 stats of both Perez and Bottas, one can't find anything which can be termed as exceptional but surprisingly they've been decent performers at the supposedly highest level. Does that say that driver performance in lower categories is not very strongly co related with performance in F1? or does it tell that the car is very good?

Driver prior to these guys - Vettel, Hamilton, Rosberg had outstanding pre -F1 records and were phenomenally successful. In fact most of the grid pre 2007-8 had a decent if not great pre-F1 record. Wickens, Alguersuari etc. could do a much better job yet one is in DTM and other is test driver for Pirelli.

Uhm... Wickens lost GP3 to Gutiérrez. Checo was keeping it close to Alguersuari in a one car team (T-Sport, while ALG was in Carlin) in British F3 Intl. Series, before he had a couple of problems in Bucharest and Donington´s first race. ALG especially didn´t look too different from PER in 2011. When the car was decent he pulled decent drives. Both were able to put decent drives from the back. Not sure how he would be much better to be honest.

Edited by Collective, 09 March 2013 - 18:01.

[IamFasterthanU]

My bad just checked agreed Wickens past record before formula renault is crap.

[Anderis]

That is somewhat true. On the other hand it's also worth noting that the money flows from Finland aren't anywhere as high as the 14mil Bruno used to bring. Bottas' backing can't be higher than a few million tops and even that would be enormous considering this is Finland we are talking about.

You can see, judging by presence on the car and team's kits, that Wihuri is equivalent of Embratel, and Kemppi is equivalent of Head&Shoulders. Therefore, they have Gillette, OGX and MRV not replaced. OGX and MRV were minor sponsors, far lesser than the previously mentioned 3. Judging by that, it's almost sure Bottas is bringing at least 50% of what Senna was bringing, as his backing is equivalent of 2/3 of major sponsors that Brunno brought for last year.
And we should take a notice that it can be even more, since it would be logical to expect that the presence on 2013 Williams is more expensive than on 2012 Williams, since during 2012 the team gathered much more presence in TV than a year before.

[Sin]

Hülkenberg I would say don't know if he got any sponsors but he was champion in several other racing categories before F1...

[Anderis]

Hulkenberg has some personal sponsors, but they are not bringing any money to the team. They are never listed on the official websites of teams that Hulkenberg is driving for.

No doubt he is here on merit.

[Tufty]

If Calado makes the jump he's definitely got there on talent, given how reluctant RSF were to pay for another year in GP2 until he convinced them.

[Juan Kerr]

And what rookie immediately put it on pole and nearly won his first race?
Jp

Any rookie with bags of testing and the fastest car could come second to Damon Hill probably

[pingu666]

wasnt hulkenburg bankrolled by willi webber? schumi's manager from back in the day.

[Tufty]

Any rookie with bags of testing and the fastest car could come second to Damon Hill probably

But beating him until the car fails?

[MaxCrazyEddieCayer]

Any rookie with bags of testing and the fastest car could come second to Damon Hill probably

Sure, but back then he had the possibility to do that, just test and test and test,and he used it at his advantage, Good for him... he was still a rookie, and putting on pole and almost winning on merit, but only had to give way just because of a oil leak, was still damn impressive in my book. One of the best start of a season for a rookie. Even the world beloved Lewis was not able to top that....

[Sin]

wasnt hulkenburg bankrolled by willi webber? schumi's manager from back in the day.

he is (or was) managed by him, but I don't think he got a huge backing compared to other drivers, he however was champion in

2005 German Formula BMW
2007 A1GP
2008 Formula 3 Euro Series
and 2009 GP2 Series

[kedia990]

You can see, judging by presence on the car and team's kits, that Wihuri is equivalent of Embratel, and Kemppi is equivalent of Head&Shoulders. Therefore, they have Gillette, OGX and MRV not replaced. OGX and MRV were minor sponsors, far lesser than the previously mentioned 3. Judging by that, it's almost sure Bottas is bringing at least 50% of what Senna was bringing, as his backing is equivalent of 2/3 of major sponsors that Brunno brought for last year.
And we should take a notice that it can be even more, since it would be logical to expect that the presence on 2013 Williams is more expensive than on 2012 Williams, since during 2012 the team gathered much more presence in TV than a year before.

Yea but come on, every driver who deserves to be in F1 in this age is going to be sponsored and will bring in some money, my question is whether the amount of money he brings in supercedes the amount of talent? Coz if he's replacing Bruno Senna, who brought in a lot more money, that must mean they've (Williams) picked talent over the extra cash, regardless of the Wihuri/Kemppi/Toto Wolff connections?

[InvertedLift]

Everybody who has ever driven for Toro Rosso is arguably there because of their talent.

No arguably about it. RB only pick them due to talent and then turf them if someone better comes along.

We can tell by the amount of former STR drivers still in F1 that they wouldn't otherwise make it to F1.

[mattferg]

Yea but come on, every driver who deserves to be in F1 in this age is going to be sponsored and will bring in some money, my question is whether the amount of money he brings in supercedes the amount of talent? Coz if he's replacing Bruno Senna, who brought in a lot more money, that must mean they've (Williams) picked talent over the extra cash, regardless of the Wihuri/Kemppi/Toto Wolff connections?

So they just turned down free money then? I'm sure it was a considered factor. Also Toto Wolff was likely the guy making the decision, so I doubt that connection was ignored...

[kedia990]

So they just turned down free money then? I'm sure it was a considered factor. Also Toto Wolff was likely the guy making the decision, so I doubt that connection was ignored...

You're oversimplifying it. I'm trying to say that Bottas impressed them so much more than Senna, even during the Friday sessions that they let him drive (and he was damn impressive, beating Maldonado's FP times on a few occasions), that they overlooked the deficit in sponsorship and chose him for better talent. And why shouldn't they - they've delivered a car last season capable of winning races. It was always Maldonado at the front (crashing out when it mattered most, but there nonetheless), they would definitely want another guy up there collecting points as well.

And even if Toto Wolff is the one calling the shots, I'm not sure he has the power to rake in an absolute numpty. If you tell me that Susie Wolff is a Williams Development Driver because of Toto, sure, i'll bite, but Williams signing a race driver based on the whims of 1 guy who isn't even with them anymore? No way. Bottas deserves much more credit than that.

[mattferg]

You're oversimplifying it. I'm trying to say that Bottas impressed them so much more than Senna, even during the Friday sessions that they let him drive (and he was damn impressive, beating Maldonado's FP times on a few occasions), that they overlooked the deficit in sponsorship and chose him for better talent. And why shouldn't they - they've delivered a car last season capable of winning races. It was always Maldonado at the front (crashing out when it mattered most, but there nonetheless), they would definitely want another guy up there collecting points as well.

And even if Toto Wolff is the one calling the shots, I'm not sure he has the power to rake in an absolute numpty. If you tell me that Susie Wolff is a Williams Development Driver because of Toto, sure, i'll bite, but Williams signing a race driver based on the whims of 1 guy who isn't even with them anymore? No way. Bottas deserves much more credit than that.

For a start, Bottas was signed before Toto left. Secondly, my point is that there are other factors besides his 'talent' to consider, he wasn't signed for talent alone. Thirdly, it's pretty easy to impress compared to Senna!

[motorhead]

And what rookie immediately put it on pole and nearly won his first race?
Jp

Tell me another "rookie" who has had the best car on the grid in his first race

Edit: sorry, I was suppose to anwer that answer

Edited by motorhead, 10 March 2013 - 12:00.

[mattferg]

Tell me another "rookie" who has had the best car on the grid in his first race

Edit: sorry, I was suppose to anwer that answer

Hamilton

[Victor_RO]

Tell me another "rookie" who has had the best car on the grid in his first race

Edit: sorry, I was suppose to anwer that answer

Mario Andretti.

[thuGG]

Robert Kubica.

[Wander]

Tell me another "rookie" who has had the best car on the grid in his first race

Edit: sorry, I was suppose to anwer that answer

David Coulthard

Edit: There also appears to be quite a few drivers who got in the best car within their first 5 races or so. Some were successful immediately (Emerson Fittipaldi) and some less so (Dave Walker).

Edited by Wander, 10 March 2013 - 13:36.

[kartinhero]

[jonpollak]

So JV and Mario are our 'best outta the box' winners.
Jp

EDIT: This year I'm supporting BIA
ha..

Edited by jonpollak, 10 March 2013 - 16:45.

[jj2728]

Tell me another "rookie" who has had the best car on the grid in his first race

Giancarlo Baghetti

[jonpollak]

Giancarlo Baghetti

I guess along those lines we can also say ..
Nino Farina
Johnny Parsons

Jp

[ensign14]

Alain Prost said in an interview he got into F1 for £50. The price of a broken kart, with which he won a scholarship into Formule Renault, and thenceforth his talent earned him offers every step of the way.

[DampMongoose]

Tony Brooks won the 1955 Syracuse Grand Prix for Connaught despite never sitting in a single seater of any sort before that race... beating the full works Maserati team in the process!

[showtime]

Just as a curiosity, rookies 12 years ago:

[Menace]

Just as a curiosity, rookies 12 years ago:

Ah good ol' times.

Too bad JPM is not in F1 anymore.

Edited by Menace, 11 March 2013 - 17:45.

[ensign14]

LOL, Fred looks like he's just left a Specials tribute band. Too much too young, methinks.

[Menace]

LOL, Fred looks like he's just left a Specials tribute band. Too much too young, methinks.

He also makes JPM look skinny in that pic. Just saying.

[Dolph]

Just as a curiosity, rookies 12 years ago:

My money is on the guy in orange.

[Gyan]

Not counting 2010, when was the last time there were 5 rookies for the new season in modern times?

[Bleu]

Not counting 2010, when was the last time there were 5 rookies for the new season in modern times?

1994 - Frentzen, Panis, Verstappen, Beretta and Ratzenberger

[Jimisgod]

1994 - Frentzen, Panis, Verstappen, Beretta and Ratzenberger

Who?

[Jimisgod]

Robert Kubica.

BMW was the best car in 2006?

Edited by Jimisgod, 14 March 2013 - 10:38.

[ensign14]

Who?

Olivier Beretta. Monegasque.

[FernuttonHulkkonen]

You're oversimplifying it. I'm trying to say that Bottas impressed them so much more than Senna, even during the Friday sessions that they let him drive (and he was damn impressive, beating Maldonado's FP times on a few occasions), that they overlooked the deficit in sponsorship and chose him for better talent. And why shouldn't they - they've delivered a car last season capable of winning races. It was always Maldonado at the front (crashing out when it mattered most, but there nonetheless), they would definitely want another guy up there collecting points as well.

And even if Toto Wolff is the one calling the shots, I'm not sure he has the power to rake in an absolute numpty. If you tell me that Susie Wolff is a Williams Development Driver because of Toto, sure, i'll bite, but Williams signing a race driver based on the whims of 1 guy who isn't even with them anymore? No way. Bottas deserves much more credit than that.

okay, you have an agenda here.

It's plain obvious that those doesn't mean anything at all as Pastor was on different programs and not looking for hotlaps unlike Bottas who was solely there to do that(hot laps and impress)

Maldonado only crashed in Valencia and Australia and was fighting for 3rd and 5th if I'm not mistaken. He lost a podium in Singapore due to his car breaking, that was very gutting. Not to mention his brilliant win

Bottas is no special talent and Maldonado is gonna show it this year, I'm calling it