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Motor Racing at the BBC - BBC4 Mon 18th March


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#51 ensign14

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 09:46

Choice of music was, well ... bizarre. I'm sure e14 can give chapter and verse, but R&R in 1953? I don't think so. And as for Cliff Richard in German ... oh dear ...

Haven't seen it yet, but the only rock & roll in 1953 was very underground, the likes of "Rocket 88" and so on. Pop music in Britain in 1953 was still in the grip of Frankie Laine and Vera Lynn. With murmurings of skiffle about to break through.

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#52 Paul Hurdsfield

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 09:55

Pop music in Britain in 1953 was still in the grip of Frankie Laine and Vera Lynn. With murmurings of skiffle about to break through.


Nout wrong with a bit of Rawhide or Cool Water  ;)

#53 Stephen W

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 09:59

How can we believe anything the media tell us when they continually have us believe that the first motorway in Britain was the M1.


Proud Preston. :wave:


Last time I drove past Junction 31 Northbound the Memorial Block was still there. The BBC have always had a blind spot on this topic because the ill educated idiots think because it is the M1 it must have been the first motorway!

Back to the motor racing element - I agree with most of what has been said however I did enjoy the "Spot the Gaff" element of the programme and also enjoyed seeing some rare footage especially Aintree.

:wave:

#54 RTH

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:13

Good but they had not taken enough care, . as BBC 4 usually do and it needed an hour to cover each decade

#55 Alan Baker

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:15

Sadly a glib and superficial skim through the fifties: any one of the high (and low) lights would have made a programme in themselves, but hey, without this I would never have known that the 30 mph speed limit started in the fifties, Cliff Richard was having hits in '53, the Mille Miglia was a rally, there's a place called Nurberg.......
To sum up, For: the archive footage. Against: what they did with it.

#56 cpbell

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:23

Sadly a glib and superficial skim through the fifties: any one of the high (and low) lights would have made a programme in themselves, but hey, without this I would never have known that the 30 mph speed limit started in the fifties, Cliff Richard was having hits in '53, the Mille Miglia was a rally, there's a place called Nurberg.......
To sum up, For: the archive footage. Against: what they did with it.


Very good summary! :smoking:

#57 AAGR

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:11

I refer you back to post #32

The word 'dreadful' surely applies ?

#58 Vitesse2

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:15

Yes, you do wonder why when they produce something like this why they can't just pass it under the nose of an "expert" who could then correct/scrub out obvious errors - it would be so easy. It is just sloppiness.

As it was credited to BBC Bristol and Messrs Arttidesco, Murray, Galpin, Stowe, Vitesse2 and (IIRC) Dolomite all live within or within a comparative stone's throw of that fair city ... :well:

#59 JtP1

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:38

It's a long time ago, but I travelled that bit of the M6 only a couple of days after it had reopened when they widened it to four lanes in the early 90s and I'm pretty sure it was there then. Alongside the northbound carriageway IIRC.


That probably explains me not noticing it. It used to be on the south bound lane on the inside of the slip road to Presto/Blackburn. Joining the northbound M6 from my usual travels doesn't leave a lot of time for looking on the verge.

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#60 kayemod

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:54

To sum up, For: the archive footage. Against: what they did with it.


I clean forgot to either watch this or record it. I was mildly irritated by this omission the next day, but having skimmed through this thread, it doesn't sound as if I missed very much at all. Stupid, easily avoidable errors in programmes like this do annoy me considerably, there's very little difference in the effort and expense needed to make a bad programmes rather than a good one. My wife tells me she can usually gauge the quality by checking the whiteness of the knuckles gripping the arms of my chair, she doesn't need to go to the extent of checking my blood pressure.


#61 Dutchy

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:56

Could someone explain why we need music in the programme at all? I consider the sounds of Alfa 158, Talbot-Lago and Maserati 250F to be sufficiently musical in the first place.

#62 BRG

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 13:51

The Mille Miglia wasn't a rally.

Wasn't it? Seems to me to have most of the features of a rally - cars competed against the clock, starting individually. It covered a route cross country from point to point. Some bearded bloke even used pace notes.

But the BBC didn't know any of this and just indeed got it wrong, as I accept that the MM is generally (if IMO erroneously) classed as a race.

As the programme, I could have lived without the obtrusive captions and the strange green diagonal fades from clip to clip. And was the sound of the cars dubbed on later as it really didn't sound quite right?

#63 E.B.

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 14:16

I think some of the footage/interview/music in the portions relating to SCM was borrowed from the late Frank Keating's "Maestro" episode from circa 1981, as I remembered Moss' comment about using DSJ as Mille Miglia navigator: "I had a man called Denis Jenkinson beside me. He has a beard", as if that was the chief selection criterion!



#64 Dino246

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 15:14

My wife is banning me from watching any more historic motor racing programmes in company because, she says, I get too cross. I didn't get cross with the footage but I became extremely angry with the awful music, the stupid mistakes and the horrible green splodges which obscured the footage. So many interesting things were just glossed over or missed completely. The number of legendary drivers who I spotted that deserved but didn't get a mention. Poor Peter Collins was totally ignored as was Tony Brooks. There was a shot of Mike Hawthorn's table at the 1958 Sportsview awards ceremony with Tony Brooks and John Surtees (?) sitting each side of him. The programme gave the impression that Mike won, where as he missed out to golfer Dai Rees.

Never mind. For me the real highspot was hearing Stirling reveal that DSJ 'has a beard'. That really made me smile again.

This, as everyone else has commented, could have been extremely good, but sadly was just lowest denominator TV. Alas we are probably a very small minority of those who watched the programme. Obviously next Monday I shall be watching alone!.

#65 E.B.

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 15:38

The programme gave the impression that Mike won, where as he missed out to golfer Dai Rees.


I thought the programme made it pretty clear that Ian Black won?



#66 Tim Murray

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 16:10

I didn't see the programme, but Ian Black did win BBC Sports Personality of the Year in 1958. Mike Hawthorn didn't make the top three:

http://en.wikipedia...._the_Year_Award

#67 Vitesse2

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 16:13

I thought the programme made it pretty clear that Ian Black won?

It did, and he did. Dai Rees won in 1957.

#68 Alan Cox

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 16:41

I clean forgot to either watch this or record it. I was mildly irritated by this omission the next day,

If, against your better judgement, you suddenly have the irresistible urge to record it, I see it is listed to go out again at 2.15am this Thursday morning on BBC4. It's not yet on iPlayer.

#69 MCS

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 17:53

I didn't see the programme, but Ian Black did win BBC Sports Personality of the Year in 1958. Mike Hawthorn didn't make the top three:

http://en.wikipedia...._the_Year_Award


Yes, saw that, Tim. Also, regrettably, I watched the rest of the programme. Wish I hadn't, because it made me angry. There is no need to get facts and information wrong - not from so recently.

Why, oh why, does it have to be this way. Christ, I really hate the BBC.

EDIT: If my comments offend I wil remove them, but I mean what I say - this is yet another example of an opportunity wasted.

Edited by MCS, 19 March 2013 - 18:17.


#70 Gary C

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 17:54

'Yet another example of the BBC's Wikipedia/Google level of research.'
They should have got me in to do it, I'd have made a damn better effort at it than this.

#71 ensign14

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 18:01

'Yet another example of the BBC's Wikipedia/Google level of research.'

Not really, as wikipedia had it right.

#72 RTH

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 18:56

Let's not be too hard on them - probably made by a bunch all in their early 20s.
It was a good deal better than the tripe viewers are subjected to on most channels every night.
This is Britain 2013 we will have to get used to low standards in everything.

#73 john aston

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 19:03

Yes, saw that, Tim. Also, regrettably, I watched the rest of the programme. Wish I hadn't, because it made me angry. There is no need to get facts and information wrong - not from so recently.

Why, oh why, does it have to be this way. Christ, I really hate the BBC.

EDIT: If my comments offend I wil remove them, but I mean what I say - this is yet another example of an opportunity wasted.


Chillax ..I believe the term is. It was a bit of fluff with some archive footage- cheap and cheerful telly. The only people who care are the ones who can spot the mistakes- and have a bonus rantette- so no real harm done. The BBC is bloody wonderful- flawed, yes , but compared to the alternative it is a jewel.

#74 retriever

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 19:19

Being a transporter fan I glimpsed the rear end of a Maserati Fiat Bartoletti appeared in one clip.

Seeing that 1955 Le Mans accident again really reinforces my view that the race should have been stopped. After all that carnage how on earth could anyone be so callous as to want to race on.

The programme itself was so superficial in its content but it was nice to see and hear Raymond Baxter again, it was a sad day when his measured tones on a Grand Prix commentary gave way to the strident outpourings of Murray Walker.


#75 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 19:31

Chillax ..I believe the term is. It was a bit of fluff with some archive footage- cheap and cheerful telly. The only people who care are the ones who can spot the mistakes- and have a bonus rantette- so no real harm done. The BBC is bloody wonderful- flawed, yes , but compared to the alternative it is a jewel.


Perfect

#76 RS2000

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 20:11

One tiny thing noticed somewhere in the ultra-short clips:
Moss "conversing" with Fangio, who was merely nodding in a bemused sort of way, then Brooks with Fangio and a clear two way conversation taking place, presumably in Italian (in Brooks' case, learnt since he met Pina?). Makes you wonder how JMF verbally communicated so much to SCM that is now reported as historical fact.

#77 MCS

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 20:36

Chillax ..I believe the term is. It was a bit of fluff with some archive footage- cheap and cheerful telly. The only people who care are the ones who can spot the mistakes- and have a bonus rantette- so no real harm done. The BBC is bloody wonderful- flawed, yes , but compared to the alternative it is a jewel.


Okay then - put like that.

But, oh, for something absolutely, totally wonderful one day - or is that really too much to ask for?

Edited by MCS, 19 March 2013 - 22:00.


#78 RAP

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:35

What a disappointment - I've cancelled the series link.

#79 pete53

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 12:25

Chillax ..I believe the term is. It was a bit of fluff with some archive footage- cheap and cheerful telly. The only people who care are the ones who can spot the mistakes- and have a bonus rantette- so no real harm done. The BBC is bloody wonderful- flawed, yes , but compared to the alternative it is a jewel.

I take your point there John and agree that the Beeb's output still stands head and shoulders above the general dross that pollutes the airwaves. However, I think it is the fact that this programme was produced by the BBC that makes it a tad disappointing. Okay, one can argue that the subject matter was not of great national importance, but for me there are signs that this slackness permeates other areas. I stopped watching Panorama some while ago when I felt it had become a rather lightweight, insubstantial shadow of its former self.

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#80 MCS

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 15:06

Let's not be too hard on them - probably made by a bunch all in their early 20s.
It was a good deal better than the tripe viewers are subjected to on most channels every night.
This is Britain 2013 we will have to get used to low standards in everything.


All totally valid points Richard!

But how depressing that almost everything we see should be so error-strewn and "dumbed down" given the vast amount of information readily available to us these days.

I do find it very frustrating and that's actually a huge understatement.

The twits at the BBC should spend a day at one of your Film Shows...


#81 LittleChris

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 23:23

The twits at the BBC should spend a day at one of your Film Shows...


That's if you can drag them away from watching one of their never ending list of cookery programmes, half of which seem to be made up of repeats of other cookery shows ...........

BBC = Bloody Baking & Cuisine.

Thought the programme was a real disappointment incidently, found it sloppy for the reasons above eg Nurberg and was disappointed that the only footage I hadn't seen before was some of the non motor sport stuff which was of no interest anyway.

#82 Allan Lupton

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:03

OT but related: On BBC Radio 4 yesterday was a half-hour programme "Lenin in Letchworth" which started from the speculation that Lenin may have visited the new Garden City in 1907, which took all of five minutes. The half hour was padded out with a biassed history of early Letchworth and of Lenin in the pre-revolution period with a quick burst of the Internationale to get us in the mood!
They even went to the road in Letchworth where Lenin would have stayed, had he visited, to record some chat about it. For Sound Radio, forsooth!


#83 john winfield

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:09

To enjoy the first programme as much as possible, I found the best approach was to record it, read all these posts, lower my expectations to zero, and then give it a go! That way it wasn't as bad as I had feared, quite enjoyable really.
I do agree though that the accuracy and style of the 'packaging' was flawed. Some good content but, rather like some of the retrospective features in today's magazines, you need to look beyond the incorrect captions and snazzy side-bars (or whatever the term is) to appreciate the gems at the core.

Here's a preview clip for the second programme. I have never heard the 1959 Sebring race referred to as the Florida Grand Prix, but maybe somebody knows better! Perhaps Florida didn't join the Union until 1960......

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/p016j4p1

#84 john winfield

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:23

OT but related: On BBC Radio 4 yesterday was a half-hour programme "Lenin in Letchworth" which started from the speculation that Lenin may have visited the new Garden City in 1907, which took all of five minutes. The half hour was padded out with a biassed history of early Letchworth and of Lenin in the pre-revolution period with a quick burst of the Internationale to get us in the mood!
They even went to the road in Letchworth where Lenin would have stayed, had he visited, to record some chat about it. For Sound Radio, forsooth!


I missed some of it Allan, but I enjoyed the parts I heard. I too am a Hertfordshire lad, but sadly from too far west to have been part of the Letchworth Bolshevik uprising that contributed to the 1917 revolution. Although I still believe firmly that Trotsky did once visit Tring.
Is Letchworth still the socialist heart of North Herts? Or is there a Stalinist uprising hatching in Hitchin?

#85 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:50

Recorded this and only watched last night - before reading this thread - forgive me if this has been brought up before but one other jarring... er...aspect was the aspect ratio itself. As per modern standards the programme was done in 16:9 widescreen but every scrap of that footage would have been 4:3 so when Raymond Baxter shows us what was in the boot of his DB MkIII....we can't see it as it's been cut off to fill the frame!
That also led to a lot of the footage seeming far worse quality than it really was as it was simply blown-up too much. The ghastly colour side framing bars on many shots reduced this a little but why not just show it AS IT IS? We can all cope with old fashioned square-ish images without being reduced to tears at those nasty black bars along each side of our huge TV screens. Can't we :confused:

#86 Barry Boor

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 12:15

Sadly for me this programme is not available on the BBC I-player.

#87 Allan Lupton

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 12:21

I missed some of it Allan, but I enjoyed the parts I heard. I too am a Hertfordshire lad, but sadly from too far west to have been part of the Letchworth Bolshevik uprising that contributed to the 1917 revolution. Although I still believe firmly that Trotsky did once visit Tring.
Is Letchworth still the socialist heart of North Herts? Or is there a Stalinist uprising hatching in Hitchin?

My apologies to those who are not interested in this OT digression, but Letchworth's socialism is not too aggressive these days. North Hertfordshire looks to the 1950s new town of Silkingrad (a.k.a. Stevenage) for old-fashioned Labour, red in tooth and claw.


#88 Allan Lupton

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 12:26

Recorded this and only watched last night - before reading this thread - forgive me if this has been brought up before but one other jarring... er...aspect was the aspect ratio itself. As per modern standards the programme was done in 16:9 widescreen but every scrap of that footage would have been 4:3 so when Raymond Baxter shows us what was in the boot of his DB MkIII....we can't see it as it's been cut off to fill the frame!
That also led to a lot of the footage seeming far worse quality than it really was as it was simply blown-up too much. The ghastly colour side framing bars on many shots reduced this a little but why not just show it AS IT IS? We can all cope with old fashioned square-ish images without being reduced to tears at those nasty black bars along each side of our huge TV screens. Can't we :confused:

The other trick they play is to s-t-r-e-t-c-h 4:3 to 16:9 so everyone is fatter (like they seem to be in real life!) and cars are longer, like they were in some period adverts. Chopping the top/bottom off is worse, but not much.

#89 Glengavel

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 13:01

Recorded this and only watched last night - before reading this thread - forgive me if this has been brought up before but one other jarring... er...aspect was the aspect ratio itself. As per modern standards the programme was done in 16:9 widescreen but every scrap of that footage would have been 4:3 so when Raymond Baxter shows us what was in the boot of his DB MkIII....we can't see it as it's been cut off to fill the frame!
That also led to a lot of the footage seeming far worse quality than it really was as it was simply blown-up too much. The ghastly colour side framing bars on many shots reduced this a little but why not just show it AS IT IS? We can all cope with old fashioned square-ish images without being reduced to tears at those nasty black bars along each side of our huge TV screens. Can't we :confused:


I suspect the people who complain about vertical black bars alongside 4:3 footage on their widescreen tellies are the same people who complained about horizontal bars alongside widescreen images on their 'square' tellies.

The BBC have no problems with showing material in its proper aspect ratio in other programmes, so why the inconsistency?


#90 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 13:18

I suspect the people who complain about vertical black bars alongside 4:3 footage on their widescreen tellies are the same people who complained about horizontal bars alongside widescreen images on their 'square' tellies.

The BBC have no problems with showing material in its proper aspect ratio in other programmes, so why the inconsistency?

It does seem to happen more and more, as if there is a mind-set that everything is better in widescreen.
Even the News reports on recently deceased 70s sit-com stars showed clips that had been trimmed so the over-enlarged images were a dreadful quality compared to the original.
Just show it how it is for heaven's sake!
Interestingly crap sound quality always seems to be OK....

#91 Paul Hurdsfield

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 13:41

Or is there a Stalinist uprising hatching in Hitchin?


I'll bet Tony Matthews is one of the ringleaders of that lot  ;)

#92 David McKinney

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 14:57

Sadly for me this programme is not available on the BBC I-player.

It might be after the repeat (mentioned earlier in this thread)

#93 arttidesco

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 16:39

As it was credited to BBC Bristol and Messrs Arttidesco, Murray, Galpin, Stowe, Vitesse2 and (IIRC) Dolomite all live within or within a comparative stone's throw of that fair city ... :well:


Thanks for the vote of confidence, I have final cut on my lap top too ! :up:

I recognised Cliff Richards 1963 hit Rote Lippen soll man k├╝ssen being played over what was supposed to be a clip of the 1957 German Grand Prix before he had even sung a word.

Recognising that to continue watching I probably needed some medication considerably stronger than anything immediately to hand I have decided to postpone watching it until my BP is well below safe limits .

What ever happened to standards of accuracy at the good old black and white steam powered BBC were they too also an illusion ?

#94 Tim Murray

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 17:00

Perhaps they thought that because the original English version of the song (Lucky Lips) had been a US hit for Ruth Brown in 1957, they were justified in using Cliff's 1963 version in German over the 1957 film clip. :down: :down: :mad:

#95 Eric Dunsdon

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 17:09

Perhaps they thought that because the original English version of the song (Lucky Lips) had been a US hit for Ruth Brown in 1957, they were justified in using Cliff's 1963 version in German over the 1957 film clip. :down: :down: :mad:

Wow!. I am impressed that you know about the Ruth Brown original Tim. I've just been playing one of her albums. Young Sir Harry did cover versions of a couple of her Atlantic recordings.

#96 arttidesco

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 18:17

Perhaps they thought that because the original English version of the song (Lucky Lips) had been a US hit for Ruth Brown in 1957, they were justified in using Cliff's 1963 version in German over the 1957 film clip. :down: :down: :mad:


Just the kind of inaccuracy that would have got some one sacked at the BBC back in the rose tinted day :smoking:

#97 Gary C

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 19:01

'Just the kind of inaccuracy that would have got some one sacked at the BBC back in the rose tinted day'
Indeed. When I worked there, you probably would have lost your job for that sort of thing. Well, nearly.................

#98 Allan Lupton

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 22:29

Just watched it from the recording: I see that the 30 limit came in in the 1950s so even non specialist motoring matters were distorted to "make a story".
I have still not come to like people who describe events of long ago using the present tense. When, as in this programme, the captions are also written thus it looks as if we are watching the Jamaican patois edition by mistake. :mad:

#99 RS2000

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 23:02

it looks as if we are watching the Jamaican patois edition by mistake.


An' I an' I tink dem BBC jus' rude buoys.

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#100 arttidesco

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 00:00

An' I an' I tink dem BBC jus' rude buoys.


Jah Rastaman Fangio 'e shows dem likkle Hinglish boys 'ow to drive back den :smoking: