Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 6 votes

Vettel Vs Webber - 2013 [merged]


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
2656 replies to this topic

#1 eronrules

eronrules
  • Member

  • 3,231 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:33

http://www.planetf1....top-Seb-leaving

The 68-year-old also weighed in on Mark Webber's Red Bull career, saying the reigning World Champs are "lucky" to have a driver of his caliber teaming up with Vettel.

"In some races he can show his full potential," Mateschitz said.

"It is difficult for him to come up against Sebastian, but the team guarantees equal material and treatment for both drivers.

"When Mark is in his best shape, he is even hard for Sebastian to beat. We are lucky we have two real number ones."


even though DM says he has 2 no.1 drivers, he's clear to indicate who has the higher priority. poor old mark ... :p


P.S i started this thread as there was none. if MODs wants to close it , they are welcomed.


Advertisement

#2 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 5,534 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:48

Of course Vettel will be better overall.

In the odd race, Webber may be faster than Vettel.

Those who say that Vettel always "crushes" Webbo by 1s are crazy.

Those who say that Webber sometimes has very mediocre races are correct. :)

#3 pazza

pazza
  • Member

  • 117 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:03

Sometimes I like too dream that Mark entered that turn @ Korea 10kph slower, didn't bin it and subsequently won the drivers championship. Then I wake up.

I'm a huge Webber fan, but I think Seb is just too good for him. Will be again this year too I'd say. Hope he gets a few more wins under his belt, anything more will then be a bonus too me.

#4 FPV GTHO

FPV GTHO
  • Member

  • 841 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:13

I'm not confident of a good first round for Webber.

A few thoughts based on no real facts: one of his best performances at Albert Park was arguably in 2006 when he was leading on an alternative strategy before a DNF. Just so happened to be Rnd3 that year though. He's had a tougher year going back every odd year - 2011 struggled with EBD and Pirellis, 2009 had a broken leg and first year with Vettel, 2007 had chronic unreliability and had to prove himself against Coulthard, 2005 had several brain fades, underperforming car and had to prove himself against Heidfeld.

The last few particular years I guess you could say with a firmer authority that he also exhausted himself over 2010 and struggled with that coming into 2011 and made a stronger start to 2012 with a fresher approach. 2013 could prove everything I've just said to just be a poor set of circumstances having occurred beforehand.

#5 eronrules

eronrules
  • Member

  • 3,231 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:52

I'm not confident of a good first round for Webber.

A few thoughts based on no real facts: one of his best performances at Albert Park was arguably in 2006 when he was leading on an alternative strategy before a DNF. Just so happened to be Rnd3 that year though. He's had a tougher year going back every odd year - 2011 struggled with EBD and Pirellis, 2009 had a broken leg and first year with Vettel, 2007 had chronic unreliability and had to prove himself against Coulthard, 2005 had several brain fades, underperforming car and had to prove himself against Heidfeld.

The last few particular years I guess you could say with a firmer authority that he also exhausted himself over 2010 and struggled with that coming into 2011 and made a stronger start to 2012 with a fresher approach. 2013 could prove everything I've just said to just be a poor set of circumstances having occurred beforehand.


in 2012, the initial coanda exhaust config suited webber's style, then ramped version suited vettel better and webber faded away. so , unless webber can adapt to vettel's style of braking while turning in, i see him playing the wingman again. :smoking:

#6 Meanbeakin

Meanbeakin
  • Member

  • 539 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:57

Yeah I mean..I hope that Mark is able to match and beat Seb, but it's completely and utterly a hope. I mean stranger things have happened but, considering Seb ended last season the strongest, and considering tyre wear is more of an issue this year (Never Mark's strong suit) and considering Mark is STILL a lousy starter, it'd be a mini miracle for Mark to stand a chance over the season.

Hoping for at least a podium for him at Albert Park though.

#7 eronrules

eronrules
  • Member

  • 3,231 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 12 March 2013 - 10:07

it's still a mystery, the no. of bad start webber has had, all with wheelspin and cluch setup ... how hard can it be to find the optimum bite-point and pull away??? or maybe it's due to pressure, remember what happened with grosjean, the same is with webber.

#8 JustinD

JustinD
  • Member

  • 65 posts
  • Joined: February 13

Posted 12 March 2013 - 10:15

Im sure Webber will have his usual clutch and KERS problems and they will keep developing the car to suit Vettel. I wonder how many more years they will keep Webber instead of getting a team mate that could challenge Vettel, and not in the late 30s. Would be nice if Vettel was up for a challenge for once, but I guess its too easy having number 1 status and the oldest driver on the grid as a team mate.

#9 yoyogetfunky

yoyogetfunky
  • Member

  • 856 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 12 March 2013 - 10:23

Sometimes I like too dream that Mark entered that turn @ Korea 10kph slower, didn't bin it and subsequently won the drivers championship. Then I wake up.

I'm a huge Webber fan, but I think Seb is just too good for him. Will be again this year too I'd say. Hope he gets a few more wins under his belt, anything more will then be a bonus too me.


This. Good as Webber can be, he sometimes makes mistakes he shouldnt do. Last part of 2012 he had some real dodgy moves in races. But when he is on top of things, hes breathtaking to watch. That move on Alonso at Spa...

#10 eronrules

eronrules
  • Member

  • 3,231 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 12 March 2013 - 10:28

Im sure Webber will have his usual clutch and KERS problems and they will keep developing the car to suit Vettel. I wonder how many more years they will keep Webber instead of getting a team mate that could challenge Vettel, and not in the late 30s. Would be nice if Vettel was up for a challenge for once, but I guess its too easy having number 1 status and the oldest driver on the grid as a team mate.


the thing is, even though mark is stubborn as a mule to be tier 2 driver (brazil 2012 :p ) he's nonetheless a solid scorer (count how many 4th he's had). so it's in Didi/marko/horner's best interest to keep him there, and also for mark too, who will offer him a race seat??? ferrari?? no way. this is mark's final grave sort of speek, same as massa or button.

i don't think any of the current crop of STR drivers are up to the par with MW, i have a sneeky feeling that they may go for Nico hulkenberg (due to potential and nationality). though i'd much prefer kimi to be there for atleast 2/3 seasons :smoking:

#11 FPV GTHO

FPV GTHO
  • Member

  • 841 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 12 March 2013 - 11:31

in 2012, the initial coanda exhaust config suited webber's style, then ramped version suited vettel better and webber faded away. so , unless webber can adapt to vettel's style of braking while turning in, i see him playing the wingman again. :smoking:


Vettel, I think, will lose a bit of relative qualifying pace with the new DRS regs though.

But theoretically Vettel should still be getting faster and Webber slower as well.


#12 race addicted

race addicted
  • Member

  • 19,646 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 12 March 2013 - 11:33

I've maintained this for as long as they've been team-mates; I think Webber is as good as Vettel, and can be as quick, but he isn't a super-human, meaning that he too, needs a handful of good races on the trot, that allows him to build on having beaten his team-mate. He hasn't really had these, mainly due to bad luck I'd say.
What frustrates me, is seeing how Vettel has been able to really flourish with a car tuned 100% to his liking, but Webber has not been treated to this, either by chance or because the championship has taken a twist at the wrong moment for him, meaning the eggs are put in Vettel's basket.
(It was the same with DC - he was flying high one or two weekends, only to suffer a mech. DNF while in the lead the following race, or sometimes not really being in the frame at all.)

I hope '13 is the year where things just fall into Webber's lap.

#13 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 12 March 2013 - 11:37

I've maintained this for as long as they've been team-mates; I think Webber is as good as Vettel, and can be as quick, but he isn't a super-human, meaning that he too, needs a handful of good races on the trot, that allows him to build on having beaten his team-mate. He hasn't really had these, mainly due to bad luck I'd say.
What frustrates me, is seeing how Vettel has been able to really flourish with a car tuned 100% to his liking, but Webber has not been treated to this, either by chance or because the championship has taken a twist at the wrong moment for him, meaning the eggs are put in Vettel's basket.
(It was the same with DC - he was flying high one or two weekends, only to suffer a mech. DNF while in the lead the following race, or sometimes not really being in the frame at all.)

I hope '13 is the year where things just fall into Webber's lap.

Oh comm'n, not these excuses again.

#14 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 3,225 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 12 March 2013 - 11:38

I've maintained this for as long as they've been team-mates; I think Webber is as good as Vettel, and can be as quick, but he isn't a super-human, meaning that he too, needs a handful of good races on the trot, that allows him to build on having beaten his team-mate. He hasn't really had these, mainly due to bad luck I'd say.
What frustrates me, is seeing how Vettel has been able to really flourish with a car tuned 100% to his liking, but Webber has not been treated to this, either by chance or because the championship has taken a twist at the wrong moment for him, meaning the eggs are put in Vettel's basket.
(It was the same with DC - he was flying high one or two weekends, only to suffer a mech. DNF while in the lead the following race, or sometimes not really being in the frame at all.)

I hope '13 is the year where things just fall into Webber's lap.


If Webber is as good as Vettel and Coulthard as good as Hakkinen (like you may seem to hint), then Barrichello was as good as Schumacher, Montoya as good as Raikkonen, Button is as good as Hamilton and Massa as good as Alonso (almost) as well. Just they were all "unlucky" to underperform.

Edited by sopa, 12 March 2013 - 11:39.


#15 1Devil1

1Devil1
  • Member

  • 2,920 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 12 March 2013 - 11:47

I've maintained this for as long as they've been team-mates; I think Webber is as good as Vettel, and can be as quick, but he isn't a super-human, meaning that he too, needs a handful of good races on the trot, that allows him to build on having beaten his team-mate. He hasn't really had these, mainly due to bad luck I'd say.
What frustrates me, is seeing how Vettel has been able to really flourish with a car tuned 100% to his liking, but Webber has not been treated to this, either by chance or because the championship has taken a twist at the wrong moment for him, meaning the eggs are put in Vettel's basket.
(It was the same with DC - he was flying high one or two weekends, only to suffer a mech. DNF while in the lead the following race, or sometimes not really being in the frame at all.)

I hope '13 is the year where things just fall into Webber's lap.


What a load of rubbish :rolleyes:

Webber was never as good as Vettel even at the first year of the german an RedBull. Vettel is quicker over one lap, has a better tires management, and the best he can get his act together if the championship is at the stake. Webber has this odd weekends on which he can challenge Vettel, but so did Barrichello with Schumacher, Koba with Hamilton, Massa with Alonso. A great champion/championship contender shows consistency over a whole season not in five races around mid season. Webber had his fair share of bad luck, you can get that, but is simply not good enough to challenge Vettel one season long.

#16 race addicted

race addicted
  • Member

  • 19,646 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 12 March 2013 - 11:58

Whoa! I had completely forgotten what touching a hair on Vettel's head can lead to!

Yes, I think Webber is as quick as Vettel, and yes, I think DC were as quick as Häkkinen. What they both lacked has been consistency, but as I said I believe the reasons lie in the psychological area. Sports psychology is a complex area and hasn't really been allowed to discuss in motorsports, but I believe that for many, it's vital to be able to build on being on a roll. Whether that happens due to being lulled by the team, or things just falling into place for you..... well, the result is the same; confidence, and confidence breeds confidence.

#17 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 3,225 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 12 March 2013 - 12:07

Whoa! I had completely forgotten what touching a hair on Vettel's head can lead to!

Yes, I think Webber is as quick as Vettel, and yes, I think DC were as quick as Häkkinen. What they both lacked has been consistency, but as I said I believe the reasons lie in the psychological area. Sports psychology is a complex area and hasn't really been allowed to discuss in motorsports, but I believe that for many, it's vital to be able to build on being on a roll. Whether that happens due to being lulled by the team, or things just falling into place for you..... well, the result is the same; confidence, and confidence breeds confidence.


In this way of arguing we can conclude that the majority of the field are as quick as the top drivers.

Consistency is what sets drivers apart, not so much speed. Most of the drivers are able to be very fast and beat the rest of the field on their day. Even Sato beat Button and Zanardi beat Ralf Schumacher on their day, despite both scoring nothing compared to their team-mates over a full season.

#18 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,311 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 12 March 2013 - 12:09

I expect this year to follow the same pattern as 2009,2010 and 2012, with Webber holding his own and maybe leading at around half distance before Seb comes on strong 2nd half of the year. Ultimately there will be races for Webber where he has a difficult one and lags around in 6th or 7th and Vettel is top 3.
Its no coincidence that in 3 of the 4 years together, Webber has been ahead after half distance but Vettel has always turned it in his favour by the end.
As was the case in 2010, 2011 and 2012, my prediction Vettel by 2 to 3 wins worth of points.

#19 eronrules

eronrules
  • Member

  • 3,231 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 12 March 2013 - 12:09

in motorsport, there is a term called 'Stamping your authority'. in every team, one driver, either by raw speed or by internal politics will gain the upperhand. Vettel has raw speed, and he is demanding. remember all those radio transmission regarding 'finding a place' or 'coming into pits' ... which most biased fans consider as whinning, is in fact 'stamping the authority', demanding the team to work around you. Fernando does it better than anyone. in case of kimi, he is ruthless when he needs to be, hungaroring, bahrain, abudhabi, singapore, he stamped his authority over romain (i guess his stint in ferrari has taught him just that).

in mark webber however, i don't see none of these 'authority' . once he was hyped as 'single lap specialist' (jaguar days). but he is prone to too many mistakes, too much inconsitency, and his age is a factor. sports psychology or not, he's just not up to par with Vettel. only seb, hamilton, JB, FA and to an extent KR are in that elite group.

Advertisement

#20 pizzalover

pizzalover
  • Member

  • 302 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 12 March 2013 - 12:15

In this way of arguing we can conclude that the majority of the field are as quick as the top drivers.

Consistency is what sets drivers apart, not so much speed. Most of the drivers are able to be very fast and beat the rest of the field on their day. Even Sato beat Button and Zanardi beat Ralf Schumacher on their day, despite both scoring nothing compared to their team-mates over a full season.


Consistency and confidence.

Mr Vettel is becoming a very consistent and confident young man.

#21 race addicted

race addicted
  • Member

  • 19,646 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 12 March 2013 - 12:24

No no, that's not the case, sopa, Zanardi for instance, was miles off Ralf Schumacher! The team did everything they could to bring him up to speed btw, even (re-)introducing steel discs, as he just couldn't get the feel for the brakes. Are you really saying that Yoong or Baumgartner could produce the laptimes Alonso or Vettel could? Webber and DC have run their top-tier team-mates close, whereas these backmarkers were never really able to show much speed at all.

Stamping your authority is vital, and that requires a good degree of selfishness not all drivers have, or are comfortable showing.

Edited by race addicted, 12 March 2013 - 12:37.


#22 Watkins74

Watkins74
  • Member

  • 5,767 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 12 March 2013 - 12:31

Im sure Webber will have his usual clutch and KERS problems and they will keep developing the car to suit Vettel. I wonder how many more years they will keep Webber instead of getting a team mate that could challenge Vettel, and not in the late 30s. Would be nice if Vettel was up for a challenge for once, but I guess its too easy having number 1 status and the oldest driver on the grid as a team mate.

You make it sound like Red Bull is doing it all wrong. 3 WDC's and 3 WCC's in a row say otherwise.

#23 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 3,225 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 12 March 2013 - 12:36

No no, that's not the case, soap, Zanardi for instance, was miles off Ralf Schumacher! The team did everything they could to bring him up to speed btw, even (re-)introducing steel discs, as he just couldn't get the feel for the brakes. Are you really saying that Yoong or Baumgartner could produce the laptimes Alonso or Vettel could? Webber and DC have run their top-tier team-mates close, whereas these backmarkers were never really able to show much speed at all.

Stamping your authority is vital, and that requires a good degree of selfishness not all drivers have, or are comfortable showing.


Zanardi was running in top three at Monza before the floor got loose. That's what I meant that on his day he could be really fast. But this day was extremely rare and god knows, why he couldn't replicate it more often. Liuzzi the same. Superb Monza 2009, qualifying in Canada 2010 and that's about it.

Yoong and Baumgartner are too slow to threaten the top even on "their day" whenever that might be. So I am talking about professional drivers.

Webber and DC "ran team-mates close". Yes, and that's it.

#24 rasul

rasul
  • Member

  • 955 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 12 March 2013 - 12:41

in motorsport, there is a term called 'Stamping your authority'. in every team, one driver, either by raw speed or by internal politics will gain the upperhand. Vettel has raw speed, and he is demanding. remember all those radio transmission regarding 'finding a place' or 'coming into pits' ... which most biased fans consider as whinning, is in fact 'stamping the authority', demanding the team to work around you.

in mark webber however, i don't see none of these 'authority' . once he was hyped as 'single lap specialist' (jaguar days). but he is prone to too many mistakes, too much inconsitency, and his age is a factor. sports psychology or not, he's just not up to par with Vettel.


+1

Couldn't agree more. Webber is a good driver, but that's it.

#25 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 5,534 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 12 March 2013 - 12:53

I wonder how many more years they will keep Webber instead of getting a team mate that could challenge Vettel, and not in the late 30s.

Yes Red Bull should have offered Hamilton a reasonable contract, especially in case Vettel is recruited by the famous scarlet vehicles of the legendary Scuderia (Ferrari Marlboro). :)

#26 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 5,534 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 12 March 2013 - 12:56

but Webber has not been treated to this, either by chance or because the championship has taken a twist at the wrong moment for him, meaning the eggs are put in Vettel's basket.
(It was the same with DC - he was flying high one or two weekends, only to suffer a mech. DNF while in the lead the following race, or sometimes not really being in the frame at all.)

A simpler explanation is that guys like Webber, Massa, Button, Coulthard, Frentzen, Barrichello etc aren't quite as good therefore although they can be very quick sometimes, they are inconsistent.

#27 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 5,534 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 12 March 2013 - 13:01

sports psychology or not, he's just not up to par with Vettel.

Webber is not a karting world champion and barely made it into F1. :wave:

He signed for a lower midfield team with Red Bull money and Newey as chief designer on Flavio's advice, whilst similar drivers like Heidfeld, Trulli, Glock are now out of F1, therefore it was a good decision. :)

#28 race addicted

race addicted
  • Member

  • 19,646 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 12 March 2013 - 13:14

Zanardi was running in top three at Monza before the floor got loose. That's what I meant that on his day he could be really fast. But this day was extremely rare and god knows, why he couldn't replicate it more often. Liuzzi the same. Superb Monza 2009, qualifying in Canada 2010 and that's about it.

Yoong and Baumgartner are too slow to threaten the top even on "their day" whenever that might be. So I am talking about professional drivers.

Webber and DC "ran team-mates close". Yes, and that's it.



A simpler explanation is that guys like Webber, Massa, Button, Coulthard, Frentzen, Barrichello etc aren't quite as good therefore although they can be very quick sometimes, they are inconsistent.


I think, given the right support and a wink from lady luck, that both Webber and DC could've been WDCs. They have the ability IMO, but I'm not arguing against the consistency-bit, I brought it up afterall. Counter that with "consistency is part of being WDC-calibre", yes of course, but the team is a part of that too.

Perhaps Barrichello could've been champion in the right circumstances, but I doubt it. I am on the other hand, quite sure that Massa and Frentzen, could not. They are not in the same group of drivers as DC and Webber, just as DC and Webber are not up there with say Hamilton and Alonso, or Schumacher and Häkkinen.

#29 Crossmax

Crossmax
  • Member

  • 987 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 12 March 2013 - 13:26

You make it sound like Red Bull is doing it all wrong. 3 WDC's and 3 WCC's in a row say otherwise.

:up:

#30 mnmracer

mnmracer
  • Member

  • 1,972 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 12 March 2013 - 13:42

We should probably get some things straight here:

  • Vettel was faster than Webber from the get go in 2009, despite Vettel getting the first team order.
  • In 2010, the performance gap in championship points (discounting bad luck) between Vettel and Webber was 70 points.
  • In 2012, the performance gap in championship points (discounting bad luck) between Vettel and Webber was 92 points.
  • In 2012, Webber was only faster in 3 (some might argue 4) out of 20 races than Vettel.
  • By Webber's own admission, the 2012 car all through the season more suited his style than Vettel's.
  • In 4 years time, Vettel beat Webber in 7 out of 10 qualifying sessions.

Webber is a massively fast driver on his day, he is one of the modern qualifying masters, but Vettel is just one size bigger, in qualifying, but even more so in the race.
You can argue how good Webber is, but saying it's only favorable circumstances that elevate Vettel, is just ignorant.

#31 Shiroo

Shiroo
  • Member

  • 4,012 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 12 March 2013 - 13:49

THIS IS WEBBER'S YEAR! Like every year was Coulthard's year (in Mclaren).

Though I'm a fan od Webber, and I REALLY HOPE for his WDC title (one day, maybe not in RBR :p), I simply can't see him beating Vettel in current regs (maybe from 2014 onwards)

#32 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 3,225 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 12 March 2013 - 13:59

I think, given the right support and a wink from lady luck, that both Webber and DC could've been WDCs. They have the ability IMO, but I'm not arguing against the consistency-bit, I brought it up afterall. Counter that with "consistency is part of being WDC-calibre", yes of course, but the team is a part of that too.

Perhaps Barrichello could've been champion in the right circumstances, but I doubt it. I am on the other hand, quite sure that Massa and Frentzen, could not. They are not in the same group of drivers as DC and Webber, just as DC and Webber are not up there with say Hamilton and Alonso, or Schumacher and Häkkinen.


Funny that you say that, considering Massa was within 1 point of WDC and Frentzen was a remote title contender in a third best car on the grid in 1999. Both feats are better than what Webber or DC ever managed.

#33 race addicted

race addicted
  • Member

  • 19,646 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 12 March 2013 - 14:09

Massa was formidable in 2008, and I praised him highly, like 90% of the board, and he did drive to extremely high standards. Frentzen in '99 was very circumstantial, and wasn't really a contender for the title at all. DC btw, had eight race-retirements that year, seven mechanical.

When things click for Webber, he's every bit as superior to Vettel, as Vettel is to him. I'm open around it clicking more often into place for Vettel than it does for Webber.

#34 kenkip

kenkip
  • Member

  • 471 posts
  • Joined: November 12

Posted 12 March 2013 - 14:28

I've maintained this for as long as they've been team-mates; I think Webber is as good as Vettel, and can be as quick, but he isn't a super-human, meaning that he too, needs a handful of good races on the trot, that allows him to build on having beaten his team-mate. He hasn't really had these, mainly due to bad luck I'd say.
What frustrates me, is seeing how Vettel has been able to really flourish with a car tuned 100% to his liking, but Webber has not been treated to this, either by chance or because the championship has taken a twist at the wrong moment for him, meaning the eggs are put in Vettel's basket.
(It was the same with DC - he was flying high one or two weekends, only to suffer a mech. DNF while in the lead the following race, or sometimes not really being in the frame at all.)

I hope '13 is the year where things just fall into Webber's lap.

I have another way of looking at it,over the years that they have been teammates Seb has earned the No 1 status in the team.Here is what i think:-
In terms of pace I believe they are similar and experience wise Webber has Seb covered on that one.(I dont recall Mark whining on the radio or or being petulant and I think that comes with experience)
The difference comes in the attitude of both drivers and this is where Seb has the measure of Mark.Seb has that bit more desire,that bit more hunger,that bit more determination.When the chips are down in Redbull Seb has always been there to pick them up.In 2010 when they needed a perfect four races to win the championship, who raised his game?2012 the same,Adrian Newey unlocked the RB9's perfomance,Seb grabbed the chance and never let go.2011 they were both given a beast,who masstered it better?We hear of stories of the kid working through the night to perfect the car,how come there are no stories about Mark concerning this?He has been a terrible starter for some time now but he never seems to improve,why?
I like Mark,Ausies are among my favourite people and he seems like a great guy to have around but surely as a team boss you will look over the last five years and the numbers dont lie,Seb is the guy to back when you want a championship.He may be terribly annoying in some of his antics but just like Alonso he has that bit extra of what it takes to win that Mark just doesnt have," period.Thats why i think he deserves the No 1 status.


#35 sanjiro

sanjiro
  • Member

  • 1,895 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 12 March 2013 - 14:44

I hope MW has a great year.

beyond that, there is NO comparison between SV and MW at RBR,
Insert what ever reason you want here, it will not change the result.

P.S. MW should have left RBR after 2010

#36 BackOnTop

BackOnTop
  • Member

  • 870 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 12 March 2013 - 14:47

Vettel vs Webber

2009- beat him
2010- beat him
2011- beat him
2012- beat him

Wow, it's so repetitive. Expect 2013 to be the same.

Edited by Mandzipop, 13 March 2013 - 15:28.
2008 not relevant as not in they weren't teammates


#37 race addicted

race addicted
  • Member

  • 19,646 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 12 March 2013 - 14:58

Oh, 'cause that was my objective, to try'n change the reality somehow.

#38 HoldenRT

HoldenRT
  • Member

  • 5,508 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 12 March 2013 - 15:08

It's an easy excuse to use the team support.. but I could never see Webber beating Vettel over a season.. even if he did drive quicker or score more points. Or even if the car suited him.. because over time.. I think the car would slowly be adapted back to Vettel with the upgrades.

This was the case early on.. but with every season it becomes more and more true. Because it's another year of Vettel success and it's another year of Webber being older and on his way out in the team.

We saw what happened when it got close.. there was lots of tension within the team. The reason why Massa was so good in 2008, was because his confidence grew and he had a lead over Kimi in the standings but also because the team supported him more. I don't think it was a coincidence. But he also drove very well on his own merit.

Team support is a factor.. but that's not to say.. that Webber would beat Vettel in any of those seasons.. regardless of team support. And assuming 100% reliability for both drivers. I'm not sure he could..

I think the best he could hope for.. is to win some races.. stay close.. and hope for some luck. Trying to match Vettel over a season.. rather than beat him.

Vettel seems better at adapting to changes.. like new circuits.. or car updates.. or new regulations or tyres. And he is very consistant and quick over a single lap. He's very consistant circuit to circuit.. and doesn't faulter under pressure. He is a very good driver.. and it makes sense for Redbull to support him. He's very similar to Alonso.. he is very solid overall.. and I think in some ways.. Webber should be happy to beat him anytime.

And then for Webber.. he finds himself in these situations where he is on top in the standings.. but is inconsistant circuit to circuit and the big pressure moments. On his day he as is quick as anyone, both in qualifying and the race. His win at Silverstone last year was great IMO.. but he doesn't produce those sort of performances as often as someone like Vettel or Alonso. And that's got nothing to do with team support. It's just that a lack of team support (sometimes) doesn't help matters and only makes it harder.

I think it's too much to expect Webber to beat Vettel this season.. but I at least hope he has a good home GP. It's long overdue to have a good race infront of his home crowd. And he's had strong races at pretty much every other circuit.

#39 HoldenRT

HoldenRT
  • Member

  • 5,508 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 12 March 2013 - 15:13

You make it sound like Red Bull is doing it all wrong. 3 WDC's and 3 WCC's in a row say otherwise.

Webber is a perfect teammate for Vettel from a Redbull perspective.. because he is quick enough to push Vettel and to be competive.. but not quick or consistant enough to dominate him or challenge him at the end of the championship. They push each other and the car into a quicker direction.. but with Vettel having the upper hand. Which is perfect for Redbull.. where as for Massa.. or Button even (in qualifying).. they don't push Alonso or Hamilton so much.. and you always expect them to be infront. Ferrari for example.. would hope that Massa is closer to Alonso.. pushing him but not beating him.

Advertisement

#40 Group B

Group B
  • Member

  • 13,971 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 12 March 2013 - 15:15

Funny that you say that, considering Massa was within 1 point of WDC and Frentzen was a remote title contender in a third best car on the grid in 1999. Both feats are better than what Webber or DC ever managed.

Yeah, have to agree with that. Massa and HH were perhaps a bit more fragile the Webber or DC, but given the right car and environment they can/could both be mighty.

#41 Zoetrope

Zoetrope
  • Member

  • 1,148 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 12 March 2013 - 15:56

As much as I would love to see more close battle, I think Mark is stationary, while Vettel is on the rise. That rough and tough 2012 season taught Sebastian a lot, in my opinion, both in racing and in his mindset. We could see how he struggled at the beginning of 2012 season when the car wasn't perfect. I think he has overcame this by now, and regardless of the car's capability he will push hard, not letting Webber much room. By China or so, I expect Seb to lead Mark on points and maintain the lead for the remainder of the season.

My prediciton is, there will definitely more interesting battles this year. Hamilton vs Rosberg, Maldonado vs Bottas, Kimi vs. reborn Grosjean (yea, call me naive).

#42 kedia990

kedia990
  • Member

  • 353 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 12 March 2013 - 16:33

As much as I would love to see more close battle, I think Mark is stationary, while Vettel is on the rise. That rough and tough 2012 season taught Sebastian a lot, in my opinion, both in racing and in his mindset. We could see how he struggled at the beginning of 2012 season when the car wasn't perfect. I think he has overcame this by now, and regardless of the car's capability he will push hard, not letting Webber much room. By China or so, I expect Seb to lead Mark on points and maintain the lead for the remainder of the season.

My prediciton is, there will definitely more interesting battles this year. Hamilton vs Rosberg, Maldonado vs Bottas, Kimi vs. reborn Grosjean (yea, call me naive).


Yep, stunning recovery drives from Seb in Spa, Abu Dhabi & Brazil 2012. Really think the first half of 2012 taught him a lot.

#43 Longtimefan

Longtimefan
  • Member

  • 3,071 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 12 March 2013 - 16:39

I'd love to see Mark doing well, he's a nice guy.

But... I see the same situation at RBR like Ferrari, Massa and Webber simply won't be allowed to 'shine'.

I'd love to be proved wrong though, on both counts.


#44 Shiroo

Shiroo
  • Member

  • 4,012 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 12 March 2013 - 16:45

Maybe Grosjean will suck again this year and Webber will replace him?

#45 yoyogetfunky

yoyogetfunky
  • Member

  • 856 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 12 March 2013 - 16:50

I'd love to see Mark doing well, he's a nice guy.

But... I see the same situation at RBR like Ferrari, Massa and Webber simply won't be allowed to 'shine'.

I'd love to be proved wrong though, on both counts.


Tbh I dont think anyone puts Massa in the same bracket as Webber. The latter didnt get an offer from Ferrari (and turned it down) out of the blue last year. And I also dont think Webber is that far off Vettel, and Im saying that as one of Vettels biggest fans. Together they make a formidable team and bring home many points, giving plenty of headaches to Lotus, McLaren, Ferrari in terms of getting both cars to score points close to eachother.

I think (and hope) Vettel wins his 4th consecutive title this year, but if its up to me, id love to see a finish like we did in 2010, with Webber being in the mix right until the end.

#46 eronrules

eronrules
  • Member

  • 3,231 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 12 March 2013 - 16:59

Tbh I dont think anyone puts Massa in the same bracket as Webber. The latter didnt get an offer from Ferrari (and turned it down) out of the blue last year. And I also dont think Webber is that far off Vettel, and Im saying that as one of Vettels biggest fans. Together they make a formidable team and bring home many points, giving plenty of headaches to Lotus, McLaren, Ferrari in terms of getting both cars to score points close to eachother.

I think (and hope) Vettel wins his 4th consecutive title this year, but if its up to me, id love to see a finish like we did in 2010, with Webber being in the mix right until the end.


the thing is, massa is pampered by LDM, why i dunno, same with MW who is pampered by Didi. if not for these 2 team owners, both heads would've rolled, specially massa's. as said before, webber is more akin to DC than massa.

#47 v@sh

v@sh
  • Member

  • 734 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 12 March 2013 - 23:26

The problem with Webber is that he is inconsistent and you cannot mount a proper title challenge if you aren't consistent. For Webber it is a number of reasons:

- Poor starts
- Unlucky mechanical problems e.g. KERs
- Being rubbish at Tilke tracks (except for Sepang)
- Just being off the pace

I agree with race addicted actually that Webber potentially could be as good as Vettel, even though Vettel has the upper hand in qualifying the gaps have been fairly close over the years with the exception of 2011. About a tenth or so in it. While Vettel IMO is the quicker driver just in both qualifying and race trim, you have to remember:

- The cars have been built around Vettel since he came in (Horner has said so)
- Webber is working in a team that isn't exactly 100% supportive
- This era of regulations do not suit Webber (hard on tires/exhaust blown diffuser etc)

Webber has the speed to mount a challenge, it's whether or not he can sustain it over the season, otherwise I don't see any reason why he can't properly challenge for the title instead of falling away all the time. Fans are fickle when it comes to f1 drivers, I doubt 90% of forum people would be callling for him to retire when he was ahead of Seb in the championship halfway last year. Age is also overrated, if you're the oldest but still out-qualifying one of the best over one lap and driving one of the best cars, why would you retire?

If Webber wins the WDC this year, I would not be surprised. I would not be surprised either if Vettel wins his 4th because as well purely because he already has the speed/consistency down already. Hence IMO why the Seb/Webber pairing is the best on the grid, all Webber needs to fix is his consistency on Sundays which he has already said he is aiming for this year after fixing his qualifying. Only thing is why has it taken this long to say that...

#48 Alfisti

Alfisti
  • Member

  • 26,813 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 13 March 2013 - 00:45

As others have said, he is inconsistent. People say he is a great number 2 because he brings home points and helps win WCC but he doesn't do it by finishing reliably behind sebastian. Some races he is waaaaaaaayyyyy slower and several places behind but in others he steals points from Seb because he is on it.

Mark was a poor racer but I felt he really improved over 2009-2011 with a car high on grip but low on top speed. For some reason however he regressed towards the end of last year, looked clumsy again which he had not done for years. Weird.

#49 Harry

Harry
  • Member

  • 182 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 13 March 2013 - 01:51

We may as well put it out there, Mark Webber doesn't have a chance in Hell at being 2013 champion. The team will want more than anything to have a fourth consecutive drivers championship in a row. It was clear in 2010 that Webber was never going to get a championship after they took his front wing off him to give to Vettel (dirty abhorrent move).

#50 BackOnTop

BackOnTop
  • Member

  • 870 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 13 March 2013 - 03:33

We may as well put it out there, Mark Webber doesn't have a chance in Hell at being 2013 champion. The team will want more than anything to have a fourth consecutive drivers championship in a row. It was clear in 2010 that Webber was never going to get a championship after they took his front wing off him to give to Vettel (dirty abhorrent move).

He won that race.

Other times that the team has "kept his wing" on, notably 2011 & 2012, he got thrashed. Maybe Webber should pray that his wing is taken off every race to stand a chance.