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Vettel Vs Webber - 2013 [merged]


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#651 MikeV1987

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 20:44

Oh, so I get the way it works. So I could say that if I take laps 36 to 38 that Webber averaged in the 40's.

Was still faster than Vettel :rotfl:


I don't even know what you are on about anymore, I was only talking about that certain stint. Nothing else, I thought that was pretty clear in my post.

I didn't pull those times, comments, and facts out of my ass either, I have the race downloaded onto my computer, I have watched the race 3 times and still use it as refferance to my posts, unlike the BS you regurgitate in every thread about this topic.

Edited by MikeV1987, 10 April 2013 - 21:12.


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#652 sniper80

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 20:52

Rumors have it that Da Costa will takes Vettel's place at RB for this Grand Prix. Mateschitz would like to have Vettel sit out one race to show him who is the boss :smoking:

#653 Zava

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 20:56

Rumors have it that Da Costa will takes Vettel's place at RB for this Grand Prix. Mateschitz would like to have Vettel sit out one race to show him who is the boss :smoking:

:lol: you funny.

#654 Black Widow

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 21:16

I don't even know what you are on about anymore, I was only talking about that certain stint. Nothing else.

I didn't pull those times, comments, and facts out of my ass, I have the race downloaded onto my computer, I have watched the race 3 times and still use it as refferance to my posts, unlike the BS you regurgitate in every thread about this topic.

Get a sense of humour will you!

The reason you "don't even know what you are on about anymore" is because you don't wish to see the facts that are put in front of you. They don't suite your purpose therefore they are BS.

Usual way a #vettelisgod fanboy progresses an argument. If you don't like what i say there is an ignore button, use it. No sweat off my back.  ;)

#655 DILLIGAF

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 21:25

Marko has decreed no more team orders.

http://www.gpupdate....ve-team-orders/

Interesting poll result with 72% indicating Vettel's move was unacceptable.

#656 GreenMachine

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:52

Looks like Mark is aiming for pole, or at least a better grid position than Seb. I wonder what is in his mind... :cool:

#657 H2H

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:53

Looks like Mark is aiming for pole, or at least a better grid position than Seb. I wonder what is in his mind... :cool:


FP2. Q3 is long away. Mark is often great over that single lap but we can say not too much about the pace of the car...

Edited by H2H, 12 April 2013 - 07:53.


#658 mnmracer

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 08:13

Marko has decreed no more team orders.

http://www.gpupdate....ve-team-orders/

Interesting poll result with 72% indicating Vettel's move was unacceptable.

Perhaps more interesting was that in 2011, 76% of F1Fanatic's readers found Webber's move perfectly acceptable.
Internet... :drunk:

Edited by mnmracer, 12 April 2013 - 08:14.


#659 H2H

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 08:21

Perhaps more interesting was that in 2011, 76% of F1Fanatic's readers found Webber's move perfectly acceptable.
Internet... :drunk:


Hypocrites for a good part, others are just consistent in disliking team orders. But this is not part of the thread.

The interesting bit starts only tomorrow.

Edited by H2H, 12 April 2013 - 08:22.


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#660 Kelateboy

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 09:47

Perhaps more interesting was that in 2011, 76% of F1Fanatic's readers found Webber's move perfectly acceptable.
Internet... :drunk:

Fans and fanboys alike love to support an underdog, and Webber in particular knows how to play a princess in distress whenever a situation calls for it. He knows how to work out the crowd and the press. For example, he does not dwell on what happened in Malaysia this weekend. OTOH, Vettel spoke his mind, retracted his apology by stating that he does not apologize for winning and even stated that Webber did not deserve the victory in Malaysia. To me, his actions spell bad publicity and a very bad PR move. To top it of, there are Alonso and Hamilton fans out there who might be envious of his success over the last 3 years who are more than willing to hang him out to dry for the slightest mistakes that Vettel might have committed.

I would take any fans' polls by these websites with a pinch of salt. If you conduct similar poll in Germany, Thailand or Malaysia, you may get a totally different result.

The dislikes toward Vettel will increase if he notches his 4th title on the trot.

#661 LukeM

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 10:21

Silverstone 2011, no pre race talk or agreements, thats why Webber was peeved about orders. Malaysia 2013, pre race agreement, no racing after pitstop. Its apples and oranges...how many times do we have to say it, jeez.

#662 Zava

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 10:23

Silverstone 2011, no pre race talk or agreements, thats why Webber was peeved about orders. Malaysia 2013, pre race agreement, no racing after pitstop. Its apples and oranges...how many times do we have to say it, jeez.

Horner confirmed to the press (Byron Young reported it I think) that there were no pre-race agreements in malaysia.

#663 mnmracer

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 10:25

Silverstone 2011, no pre race talk or agreements, thats why Webber was peeved about orders. Malaysia 2013, pre race agreement, no racing after pitstop. Its apples and oranges...how many times do we have to say it, jeez.

I'll make the good faith assumption you haven't read the news:

Byron Young ‏@byronf1 11 Apr
Red Bull tell me that team orders in Malaysia was not agreed pre-race but was an ad hoc decision after the final stop.

#664 Sakae

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 10:37

I'll make the good faith assumption you haven't read the news:

Byron Young ‏@byronf1 11 Apr
Red Bull tell me that team orders in Malaysia was not agreed pre-race but was an ad hoc decision after the final stop.

Thank you for that confirmation. It is amazing how many fans claimed otherwise.

#665 Black Widow

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 10:50

I'll make the good faith assumption you haven't read the news:

Byron Young ‏@byronf1 11 Apr
Red Bull tell me that team orders in Malaysia was not agreed pre-race but was an ad hoc decision after the final stop.

Maybe there were no specific pre-race team orders for the race but Multi 21 was obviously discussed before the race. Horner just doing his usual spin on things. I don't know what you want to call it but Multi 21 and Multi 12 to me is a pre-race order.  ;)




#666 LukeM

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 10:51

This is clearly bullshit to cover up the mess post Malaysia. Either that or we need to question who is the guy posting this and how reliable are his sources, doesn't look very concrete. There was obvious press talk about RBR being concerned about tyre wear before the race. The Multi 21, Multi 12 stuff was obviously created to manage the tyres to make sure they got home safely. Why invent that "code" if it wasn't discussed previously.

#667 H2H

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 10:56

Thank you for that confirmation. It is amazing how many fans claimed otherwise.


It is quite easy and a known human fallacy:

a) Certain persons felt the move by Seb was not right. I agree. -> Team orders should be followed if legal.

b) Certain persons look at the facts like Silverstone11&Co or are confronted by them and react in two ways:

1. If we look at the evidence to test our opinion it was pretty much the same thing. Mark tried the same and that was also not right -> Mark and Seb both have disregarded team orders. Such things happen in life. Neither is 'evil' they did just the wrong thing.

2. Refuse the evidence. Grasp the straw about the rumour about a supposed pre-race agreement about specific intra-team orders for a certain stage of the race. Make a fool out of yourself and cry wolf. -> Mark was right and fair, Seb was wrong and unfair. Welcome hypocrisy, dear friend.

Option 2 has the advantage that one can ignore the relevant facts and stick to the wrong believes. It is easier on your mind. Many went down that path, it is quite a slippery one.

Edited by H2H, 12 April 2013 - 10:59.


#668 Zava

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 10:57

This is clearly bullshit to cover up the mess post Malaysia. Either that or we need to question who is the guy posting this and how reliable are his sources, doesn't look very concrete. There was obvious press talk about RBR being concerned about tyre wear before the race. The Multi 21, Multi 12 stuff was obviously created to manage the tyres to make sure they got home safely. Why invent that "code" if it wasn't discussed previously.

you said "Malaysia 2013, pre race agreement, no racing after pitstop." and that is proven wrong. obviously they talked about what multi 12 / multi 21 means (imagine this on the radio: "Seb, it is multi 21 I repeat multi 21" "WTF is that?" "sorry, we just made that code up right now, it means you stay behind Mark, so multi 21 k?" "you guys are idiots" :lol: ) but that's not what you said.

BW, by that logic, you could also argue that they talked about what 'maintain the gap' means, so there were pre-race talks in 2011 silverstone too. :D

Edited by Zava, 12 April 2013 - 10:58.


#669 Sakae

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 10:57

This is clearly bullshit to cover up the mess post Malaysia. Either that or we need to question who is the guy posting this and how reliable are his sources, doesn't look very concrete. There was obvious press talk about RBR being concerned about tyre wear before the race. The Multi 21, Multi 12 stuff was obviously created to manage the tyres to make sure they got home safely. Why invent that "code" if it wasn't discussed previously.

Hold on; no one disputes existence of pre-agreed race signals, but that's not center of the argument, I think. Disputed is whether pre-race agreement existed in last race, that drivers will hold their sequential positions after last pit-stop.

#670 study

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 10:58

Really, the saying, "when you're in the sh*t, stop digging" comes to mind.

The keep changing of the stories are just making Redbull look like idiots.

Edited by study, 12 April 2013 - 10:58.


#671 study

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 10:59

Thank you for that confirmation. It is amazing how many fans claimed otherwise.


I'm sorry, but if this report was about team orders being agreed, you would be claiming it is a fabrication. You've even said Redbull in there statements are not telling the truth.

#672 sanjiro

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:05

team orders this, team orders that.
Who knows, who cares.

All we can say for sure is MW will have a &*^$ start in china

#673 nomi

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:08

BBC commenting that Marko and Vettel having deep conversations in garage while Webber was on other side alone. Wonder what they were plotting this time.

#674 joshb

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:12

Looks like Mark is aiming for pole, or at least a better grid position than Seb. I wonder what is in his mind... :cool:


Whether it has fired Mark up up Seb had a difficult day, I don't know but he wasn't on the same time sheet as Mark from lap 1- especially Sector 2 and struggled to nail the last turn regularly.

#675 joshb

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:14

BBC commenting that Marko and Vettel having deep conversations in garage while Webber was on other side alone. Wonder what they were plotting this time.


Hopefully where to find a second, error corrected, to Massa's time in FP2


#676 Sakae

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:17

I'm sorry, but if this report was about team orders being agreed, you would be claiming it is a fabrication. You've even said Redbull in there statements are not telling the truth.

Please do not fabricate my inputs.

1. In contrast to many in here, I have always maintained that I never heard RB to confirm about drivers holding their positions after last stop. It is actually today first time I read about it.
2. My doubts about veracity about tire related explanation as a sole reason for Code 21 was, that tires whilst they might play a role, but there was more to it than Horner shared with us. Detuning Weber's engine was quite surprising and remains unexplained factor, considering that Hamilton was behind, and RB at the time did not know about Merc's strength to attack RB. Suspicion that Webber, in contrast to Vettel, was low on fuel is perhaps not far-fetched consideration.

I think I have enough of that charade. Vettel could not believe his ears hearing that order, and neither do I. That race is not going down in annals of history as best managed race, that’s for sure.


#677 Sakae

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:20

I'm sorry, but if this report was about team orders being agreed, you would be claiming it is a fabrication. You've even said Redbull in there statements are not telling the truth.

QUOTE (mnmracer @ Apr 12 2013, 12:25) *
I'll make the good faith assumption you haven't read the news:

Byron Young ‏@byronf1 11 Apr
Red Bull tell me that team orders in Malaysia was not agreed pre-race but was an ad hoc decision after the final stop.




#678 study

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:21

Last week, when Redbull issued a statement, your belief was that they was lying.

#679 Sakae

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:23

BBC commenting that Marko and Vettel having deep conversations in garage while Webber was on other side alone. Wonder what they were plotting this time.

There were plotting against Webber, obviously. Those two would be under conspiratorial focus even if they would were on different continents. Good observation BBC!

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#680 Sakae

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:25

Last week, when Redbull issued a statement, your belief was that they was lying.

Stop making things up, and show me, because my doubts were related mainly to tire-story as a sole factor for issuance of Code 21.

#681 Sakae

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:28

It is quite easy and a known human fallacy:

a) Certain persons felt the move by Seb was not right. I agree. -> Team orders should be followed if legal.

b) Certain persons look at the facts like Silverstone11&Co or are confronted by them and react in two ways:

1. If we look at the evidence to test our opinion it was pretty much the same thing. Mark tried the same and that was also not right -> Mark and Seb both have disregarded team orders. Such things happen in life. Neither is 'evil' they did just the wrong thing.

2. Refuse the evidence. Grasp the straw about the rumour about a supposed pre-race agreement about specific intra-team orders for a certain stage of the race. Make a fool out of yourself and cry wolf. -> Mark was right and fair, Seb was wrong and unfair. Welcome hypocrisy, dear friend.

Option 2 has the advantage that one can ignore the relevant facts and stick to the wrong believes. It is easier on your mind. Many went down that path, it is quite a slippery one.

Thanks; I am also on a receiving end of a refresher course, that there are people on this board, who do not follow full thread and line of reasoning, then jump in, take randomly a post out of context, and run with it.

#682 DILLIGAF

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 12:31

There were plotting against Webber, obviously. Those two would be under conspiratorial focus even if they would were on different continents. Good observation BBC!


That's gold coming from you Sakae. You've just recently posted a conspiracy theory about poor Seb in free practice. :rolleyes:

Quote: "and it is amazing how Vettel's crew suddenly cannot setup his car. Well, it was whole three weeks since last race, and maybe they forgot how to..."

Your hypocricy knows no bounds. :down:

#683 LukeM

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 12:37

team orders this, team orders that.
Who knows, who cares.

All we can say for sure is MW will have a &*^$ start in china


i love you

#684 Sakae

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 12:38

That's gold coming from you Sakae. You've just recently posted a conspiracy theory about poor Seb in free practice. :rolleyes:

Quote: "and it is amazing how Vettel's crew suddenly cannot setup his car. Well, it was whole three weeks since last race, and maybe they forgot how to..."

Your hypocricy knows no bounds. :down:

Hmm no, I forgot that sarcasm doesn't play well on the internet. Read my post within context to the one I actually replied. (BBC noted, and Webber standing alone... really)?

#685 LukeM

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 12:45

In all seriousness, i think that something huge is bubbling under the surface of RBR right now. There's a few ways it can go from here. Firstly, it could be gloves off, fair play to both with no team orders and giving them even equipment, full battle royale. Another outcome could be that in the best interests of the team, Webber starts to get dud treatment, lots of KERS issues, start problems arise again etc etc. That is definitely the safest route if they want to go for 4 WDC in a row. Now another one that I have been thinking about... we all know Dietrich is a big Webber fan, and it is publicly known Vettel wants to be a Ferrari driver in the near future. What if Red Bull decide to put all there weight behind Mark? "Lets get him a championship". Vettel has undermined the management, and focally said he isn't happy with the team giving orders etc, so I think there may be some very unhappy campers with him right now.

Even Marko seems pretty subdued lately. Its gonna be fascinating to see how this all pans out.

edit:awful english as usual :)

Edited by LukeM, 12 April 2013 - 13:04.


#686 krapmeister

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 13:00

I just cannot see RBR putting all it's weight behind Mark, at the expense of Vettel...

#687 caso

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 14:34

In all seriousness, i think that something huge is bubbling under the surface of RBR right now. There's a few ways it can go from here. Firstly, it could be gloves off, fair play to both with no team orders and giving them even equipment, full battle royale. Another outcome could be that in the best interests of the team, Webber starts to get dud treatment, lots of KERS issues, start problems arise again etc etc. That is definitely the safest route if they want to go for 4 WDC in a row. Now another one that I have been thinking about... we all know Dietrich is a big Webber fan, and it is publicly known Vettel wants to be a Ferrari driver in the near future. What if Red Bull decide to put all there weight behind Mark? "Lets get him a championship". Vettel has undermined the management, and focally said he isn't happy with the team giving orders etc, so I think there may be some very unhappy campers with him right now.

Even Marko seems pretty subdued lately. Its gonna be fascinating to see how this all pans out.

edit:awful english as usual :)


In all seriousness, the beneficiaries of such an approach would be Ferrari, Mercedes, Lotus and McLaren. RBR may be a marketing tool, but its purpose is to win championships. In recent years Vettel has shown that he has the skills to win the WDC, Webber hasn't. While RBR won the constructors trophy three years in a row, Webber was always beaten by at least one driver from another team and only in 2010 did he stay in the fight for the driver's trophy until the last race.

Edited by caso, 13 April 2013 - 12:45.


#688 Sakae

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 19:11

I just cannot see RBR putting all it's weight behind Mark, at the expense of Vettel...

Maybe they should do that; I am sometimes (in odd moments) hoping that Vettel would leave them. (Switching seats with Hamilton, Rosberg, Massa, or wherever opportunity jumps on him).

#689 Callahan

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 06:41

Well that didn't take long, although I thought they might have made it a little less obvious,

What a fu$%#n joke

Edited by Callahan, 13 April 2013 - 06:44.


#690 DILLIGAF

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 06:47

Well that didn't take long, although I thought they might have made it a little less obvious,

What a fu$%#n joke


+1

One out lap, one timed lap, runs out of fuel on the in lap. :rolleyes:

RBR are a disgrace!!

#691 reggie

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 06:47

helmet marko earning his money.

#692 Shiroo

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 06:48

Oh man. I jus't cant believe all of these Kers problems and now even fuel problem. Especially that Mark was WAY FASTER driver this weeknd. Horrible

#693 billkaos

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 06:51

+1 for Vettel :)

#694 LukeM

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 06:52

Well as I mentioned previously, there were a few possible outcomes after Malaysia. Looks like they went for destroying Mark's championship now. Expect many more weird issues over the next 6-7 races. Mark should just take Seb out than walk away.

#695 swerved

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 06:53

Well as I mentioned previously, there were a few possible outcomes after Malaysia. Looks like they went for destroying Mark's championship now. Expect many more weird issues over the next 6-7 races. Mark should just take Seb out than walk away.



To the pub ?.

#696 reggie

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 06:53

webber was clearly faster than vettel this weekend as well. can't have that.

#697 DILLIGAF

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 06:53

Well as I mentioned previously, there were a few possible outcomes after Malaysia. Looks like they went for destroying Mark's championship now. Expect many more weird issues over the next 6-7 races. Mark should just take Seb out than walk away.


Is it possible they want Mark to quit?

Edit: Mark now saying it was a fuel pressure failure.

Edited by DILLIGAF, 13 April 2013 - 06:57.


#698 Realyn

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 06:54

Well as I mentioned previously, there were a few possible outcomes after Malaysia. Looks like they went for destroying Mark's championship now. Expect many more weird issues over the next 6-7 races. Mark should just take Seb out than walk away.

Amazing, how old are you?

Seriously, I can't tell if you are just trying to troll? They wanted to secure MW's win in the last race. I'm pretty sure this was either a technical defect or actually a mistake by MW. He did 2 warmup laps between his 2 flying laps, maybe they only planned for one.

Edited by Realyn, 13 April 2013 - 06:55.


#699 LukeM

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 06:58

how old are you to be so ignorant?

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#700 Wheels23

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 07:08

Wow that timing is quite funny. Red Bull going to have an interesting race with Vettel and Webber to be on the medium tire.