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Vettel Vs Webber - 2013 [merged]


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#51 Harry

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 03:34

I know he won the race, it solidifies what I've said.

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#52 Sakae

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 05:35

I hope MW has a great year.

beyond that, there is NO comparison between SV and MW at RBR,
Insert what ever reason you want here, it will not change the result.

P.S. MW should have left RBR after 2010

Sounds like DM's words mean very little for Webber's disciples then.

#53 caso

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 05:51

We may as well put it out there, Mark Webber doesn't have a chance in Hell at being 2013 champion. The team will want more than anything to have a fourth consecutive drivers championship in a row. It was clear in 2010 that Webber was never going to get a championship after they took his front wing off him to give to Vettel (dirty abhorrent move).


The championship was lost in Korea, not in Great Britain.



#54 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 05:58

By Webber's own admission, the 2012 car all through the season more suited his style than Vettel's.


Did I miss this interview? :well:

From Autosport's Mark Hughes (re Webber's shot in 2013)

And, if the RB9 drives like a conventional car and not one that demands the Vettel trick of standing on the throttle to tame slow-corner-entry oversteer via exhaust gas – as happened in 2011 and towards the end of last year – then he can compete on level terms.

#55 JustinD

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 06:19

Webber scores decent points because the redbulls are usually the fastest car. That's nothing to really boast about, as any decent driver can do that.

#56 bourbon

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 06:51

We may as well put it out there, Mark Webber doesn't have a chance in Hell at being 2013 champion. The team will want more than anything to have a fourth consecutive drivers championship in a row. It was clear in 2010 that Webber was never going to get a championship after they took his front wing off him to give to Vettel (dirty abhorrent move).


It was clear Mark was not going to get a championship after Silverstone - after RBR took his wing off and gave it to Sebastian? I don't know how you reached that conclusion at that point considering:

-Mark dominated the points lead over his teammate throughout the 2010 season;
-Mark led the entire WDC race for 3/4 of the season - his teammate never did;
-Mark would have had a nearly insurmountable lead in the WDC if he'd not crashed in Korea;
-Mark went into the final race 8 points ahead of Seb and just 7 behind Alonso; whereas Seb was 15 off the leader.

All bets were on either Alonso or Webber to win it. Vettel and Hamilton were considered by all but the most fervent, a distant possibility.

So how did you reach that conclusion at Silverstone 2010, in light of the circumstances?

Edited by bourbon, 13 March 2013 - 07:02.


#57 FPV GTHO

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 06:56

Did I miss this interview? :well:

From Autosport's Mark Hughes (re Webber's shot in 2013)

And, if the RB9 drives like a conventional car and not one that demands the Vettel trick of standing on the throttle to tame slow-corner-entry oversteer via exhaust gas – as happened in 2011 and towards the end of last year – then he can compete on level terms.


In comparison to the RB7 it makes sense

#58 Meanbeakin

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 08:11

It was clear Mark was not going to get a championship after Silverstone - after RBR took his wing off and gave it to Sebastian? I don't know how you reached that conclusion at that point considering:

-Mark dominated the points lead over his teammate throughout the 2010 season;
-Mark led the entire WDC race for 3/4 of the season - his teammate never did;
-Mark would have had a nearly insurmountable lead in the WDC if he'd not crashed in Korea;
-Mark went into the final race 8 points ahead of Seb and just 7 behind Alonso; whereas Seb was 15 off the leader.

All bets were on either Alonso or Webber to win it. Vettel and Hamilton were considered by all but the most fervent, a distant possibility.

So how did you reach that conclusion at Silverstone 2010, in light of the circumstances?


It also misses the fact that Mark won Silverstone 2010!

#59 mnmracer

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 08:53

Did I miss this interview? :well:

From Autosport's Mark Hughes (re Webber's shot in 2013)

And, if the RB9 drives like a conventional car and not one that demands the Vettel trick of standing on the throttle to tame slow-corner-entry oversteer via exhaust gas – as happened in 2011 and towards the end of last year – then he can compete on level terms.

Not sure what your (and MH's) definition of "can compete on level terms" is, but in the pre-trick RB8, Vettel had the better of Webber in 7 out of 10 races. Aside from China, Monaco and Silverstone, come race day Webber was not on Vettel's level.

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#60 GlenP

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 09:11

These driver vs driver threads always take one route only, which is totally different to that which most people actually feel. I support Webber because I like him, like his driving, like the way he goes about business, sense of humour etc etc. To just go and support whichever driver you think is the best one (and most seem to not only do that but to never change their mind, preferring to re-invent history to bend things to suit their original view) is pretty daft in my view.

Clearly SV is a more complete driver. And?

#61 choyothe

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 09:13

Webber will not win the championship because Vettel is clearly better than him, it's been evident since 2009. I of course expect this thread to be full of other reasons why the "unthinkable" is occurring in front of our eyes.

#62 Sardukar

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 09:20

Why does this thread even exist? as soon as someone makes a post about webber being a better driver than vettel (in their opinion) they get jumped on and attacked. Just make it a dedicated Vettel thread and get on with it.

#63 pazza

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 09:26

Seb's pretty good but .... so really no shame to beaten by the wonderkid. Mark's been the closest to his teammate out of all the top teams and RBR have clearly benefited from the partnership, else they would have got rid of him plain and simple. Formula 1 ain't a fairy-tale and you don't hang around for ten odd years if your no good. Personally I think losing 2010 devastated Mark mentally, who knows perhaps with a championship under his belt he could enjoy the focus from the team Seb enjoys now. 2013 there is some hope still, this being the first season Mark will be racing free of the remnants of his accidents.

#64 Group B

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 09:45

Why does this thread even exist? as soon as someone makes a post about webber being a better driver than vettel (in their opinion) they get jumped on and attacked. Just make it a dedicated Vettel thread and get on with it.

Well that's often because posts about Webber being better are accompanied by risible conspiracy theories explaining Vettel's 'apparent' superiority. Webber is a top driver who undoubtedly has days when he edges Vettel, but it's immensely difficult to construct a plausible case for him being 'a better driver' than Vettel.

#65 eronrules

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 09:56

Horner: Webber's Red Bull seat safe

http://www.planetf1....-Bull-seat-safe

Webber, though, isn't always the favourite son at Milton Keynes with Red Bull advisor Helmut Marko making no secret of the fact that he is a huge fan of triple World Champion Sebastian Vettel.

Marko claimed in an interview last year that Webber can't handle the pressure as he doesn't have the mental strength or the consistency compared to Vettel.

"The difficulty for Mark is he is constantly judged against a young man in the other car who has achieved so much," Horner added.

"What Seb's done in 101 races, with 26 victories, being a three-time World Champion, youngest points scorer, pole winner, race winner, is remarkable.

"Mark's being constantly measured against a driver that is, in my view, the best of a generation and that makes it harder for him.

"But at the same time Mark measures the opportunity of being measured against the best.

"He has also demonstrated on his day he can be unbeatable and he does just need to string a campaign together, with 19 of those performances.

"He's improved as he's matured. Last year he drove very well, and if he can get off to a good start and build up some momentum this season that will be important for his campaign.

"Above all, if we didn't think he could still do it then we wouldn't have taken him for another year with the team."



#66 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 10:52

It was clear Mark was not going to get a championship after Silverstone - after RBR took his wing off and gave it to Sebastian? I don't know how you reached that conclusion at that point considering:


I think it showed that Red Bull werent going to support Webber if push came to shove, and without the team's support he was essentially behind the 8 Ball.

Up until that point, if I recall correctly the driver leading in the WDC got first call on new parts if there was a problem supplying two of something. Red Bull essentially dropped that understanding by taking the wing away, as Webber was ahead by a point.

#67 icecream

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 11:00

and round and round we go.

it's all been done to death, so can we keep it to 2013 talk (as per the title)?

#68 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 11:06

-Mark dominated the points lead over his teammate throughout the 2010 season;
-Mark led the entire WDC race for 3/4 of the season - his teammate never did;
-Mark would have had a nearly insurmountable lead in the WDC if he'd not crashed in Korea;
-Mark went into the final race 8 points ahead of Seb and just 7 behind Alonso; whereas Seb was 15 off the leader.

Thanks for the pro-Webber quotes bourbon, you could be mistaken for a Webber supporter with a post like this ;)

Not entirely sure why? Wouldn't Vettel fans normally be pointing out how Vettel's V8 went boom more than once, otherwise Webber would not have been in it? :confused: :)

#69 krapmeister

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 11:41

The season hasn't even begun and this thread has already descended into a sh!tfight... :lol:

#70 H2H

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 11:52

The season hasn't even begun and this thread has already descended into a sh!tfight... :lol:


This is the reason why I while try to steer clear of it despite finding some of the posts highly amusing. Webber being treated just like Massa. Vettels win in Monza nothing special. Webber having beaten 5 years in row. :lol:

If such a thread should have any sense that the focus should be indeed on 2013.



#71 rasul

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 12:34

On topic: In 2013, I expect Webber to challenge Vettel occasionally, but Vettel will easily beat him overall. Webber is quite good, but Vettel is a better driver.

Edited by Mandzipop, 13 March 2013 - 13:10.
First part of the post no longer relevant


#72 mnmracer

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 13:05

Ah, the good old double standard. 2013 hasn't even started yet and it's already back.
Where was all this rationale last year when Alonso won for instance Valencia? Or all the 'Senna/Toleman/Monaco' talk where apparently a good set-up didn't exist.

Edited by mnmracer, 13 March 2013 - 13:06.


#73 Mandzipop

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 13:13

A lot of posts have been removed as this thread was veering totally off topic. Mark and Seb were not teammates in 2008 and 2008 is not 2013 as per the title. Please stay on topic.

#74 Kelateboy

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 13:36

Whoa! I had completely forgotten what touching a hair on Vettel's head can lead to!

Yes, I think Webber is as quick as Vettel, and yes, I think DC were as quick as Häkkinen. What they both lacked has been consistency, but as I said I believe the reasons lie in the psychological area. Sports psychology is a complex area and hasn't really been allowed to discuss in motorsports, but I believe that for many, it's vital to be able to build on being on a roll. Whether that happens due to being lulled by the team, or things just falling into place for you..... well, the result is the same; confidence, and confidence breeds confidence.

I said it back in 2010 that it was the only season Webber could realistically become the WDC as Vettel was bound to get better over the years. Webber fractured his shoulder while leading the championship with 4 races left in the season, and had to race with pain-killer injections in 2 races. Things could have turned out so differently for him in 2010.

IMO, he stands no chance of beating Vettel in 2013. I consider Webber to have a great season if he can notch 2 or 3 wins this season.

#75 PassWind

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 14:11

Don't really care what's gone on in the previous seasons. Webber is good for Seb, especially in qualifying, they push each other, Seb is faster simple as that. On some tracks Webber can be in a league of his own when he gels with the car/track. Seb has admitted as much before, but Seb is too good for everyone on far too many tracks, he is just a fantastic driver but gets the Shuey syndrome wankers cutting his poppy down at every chance they get, like Newey drives the car.

Webber as the team clearly understands is good for Seb he needs a competent driver to keep him sharp, it's worked since he joined RBR. Webber has two main problems which will in my opinion never allow him to win a WDC aside from having a mostly faster team mate. His starts and his poor performance on sub optimal tire temps. So many podiums lost from very solid qualifying positions not only from crap starts but losing positions on the first couple of laps. He on occasions gets it right and can cope, however more than any other of the contenders he is more prone to being out positioned on sub optimal tire temps.

The last factor is usually his out laps are poor in comparison again to the contenders which is crucial on the undercut game. However what has been keeping him in touch in a lot of races is his general race pace is very very good in comparison to the contenders. Without any improvement on his main weaknesses nothing much will change, but he will continue to push Seb along all weekend and on occasion beat him fair and square.....

Edited by PassWind, 13 March 2013 - 14:14.


#76 Kelateboy

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 14:22

The championship was lost in Korea, not in Great Britain.

The championship was lost a few days before the Japanese GP... :D

#77 Alfisti

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 14:31

Don't really care what's gone on in the previous seasons. Webber is good for Seb, especially in qualifying, they push each other, Seb is faster simple as that. On some tracks Webber can be in a league of his own when he gels with the car/track. Seb has admitted as much before, but Seb is too good for everyone on far too many tracks, he is just a fantastic driver but gets the Shuey syndrome wankers cutting his poppy down at every chance they get, like Newey drives the car.

Webber as the team clearly understands is good for Seb he needs a competent driver to keep him sharp, it's worked since he joined RBR. Webber has two main problems which will in my opinion never allow him to win a WDC aside from having a mostly faster team mate. His starts and his poor performance on sub optimal tire temps. So many podiums lost from very solid qualifying positions not only from crap starts but losing positions on the first couple of laps. He on occasions gets it right and can cope, however more than any other of the contenders he is more prone to being out positioned on sub optimal tire temps.

The last factor is usually his out laps are poor in comparison again to the contenders which is crucial on the undercut game. However what has been keeping him in touch in a lot of races is his general race pace is very very good in comparison to the contenders. Without any improvement on his main weaknesses nothing much will change, but he will continue to push Seb along all weekend and on occasion beat him fair and square.....


Well observed, it's all correct.

#78 Kelateboy

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 14:37

In this way of arguing we can conclude that the majority of the field are as quick as the top drivers.

Consistency is what sets drivers apart, not so much speed. Most of the drivers are able to be very fast and beat the rest of the field on their day. Even Sato beat Button and Zanardi beat Ralf Schumacher on their day, despite both scoring nothing compared to their team-mates over a full season.

This is Mark Webber's achilles heel, and he acknowledged that as well.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105991

Mark Webber believes rediscovering his consistency is key to his title hopes this year.

#79 mtknot

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 14:51

Mark seems much faster when the car is less of a videogame; when the car isn't ideal. However I think he gets subconciously bored and overdrives/overcorrects a lot of the time, in contrast to vettel. Vettel on the other hand doesnt manhandle the car as much, but seems to be slower when traction is at a premium. I think there's a good reason why RB chose these two guys; they essentially can secure WDC over a wider range.

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#80 GreenMachine

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 04:49

Don't really care what's gone on in the previous seasons. Webber is good for Seb, especially in qualifying, they push each other, Seb is faster simple as that. On some tracks Webber can be in a league of his own when he gels with the car/track. Seb has admitted as much before, but Seb is too good for everyone on far too many tracks, he is just a fantastic driver but gets the Shuey syndrome wankers cutting his poppy down at every chance they get, like Newey drives the car.

Webber as the team clearly understands is good for Seb he needs a competent driver to keep him sharp, it's worked since he joined RBR. Webber has two main problems which will in my opinion never allow him to win a WDC aside from having a mostly faster team mate. His starts and his poor performance on sub optimal tire temps. So many podiums lost from very solid qualifying positions not only from crap starts but losing positions on the first couple of laps. He on occasions gets it right and can cope, however more than any other of the contenders he is more prone to being out positioned on sub optimal tire temps.

The last factor is usually his out laps are poor in comparison again to the contenders which is crucial on the undercut game. However what has been keeping him in touch in a lot of races is his general race pace is very very good in comparison to the contenders. Without any improvement on his main weaknesses nothing much will change, but he will continue to push Seb along all weekend and on occasion beat him fair and square.....


:up:


"Above all, if we didn't think he could still do it then we wouldn't have taken him for another year with the team." I guess CH doesn't know as much as a random bunch of internet experts. :rolleyes:



This for/against pontificating is all a bit childish. It would be nice if the discussion 1) reflected a little more humility about the writers' basic ignorance of what really goes on and why, and 2) was a lot more positive in tone. My appreciation goes to those who do already contribute as adults.

#81 EarnardBeccelstone

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 05:09

If Mark wins at Melbourne and again at Monaco and has a solid, consistent season, I'd be happy if Vettel beat him at every other race of the season.

Realistically, I expect Vettle to beat Webber at three out of four grand prix and out-qualify him at two out of every three.



#82 Shiroo

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 05:32

why Mark cant be as good as he is in Monaco on other tracks? he could mount a title challenge then :S

#83 bourbon

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 07:22

I think it showed that Red Bull werent going to support Webber if push came to shove, and without the team's support he was essentially behind the 8 Ball. Up until that point, if I recall correctly the driver leading in the WDC got first call on new parts if there was a problem supplying two of something. Red Bull essentially dropped that understanding by taking the wing away, as Webber was ahead by a point.


You are mis-remembering. At the start of Silverstone the point standings were as follows:
1. Lewis Hamilton 127
2. Jenson Button 121
3. Sebastian Vettel 115
4. Mark Webber 103
5. Fernando Alonso 98

In fact, Sebastian leading the championship was the stated rationale for Newey and Horner electing to give the part to Seb.

Thanks for the pro-Webber quotes bourbon, you could be mistaken for a Webber supporter with a post like this ;) Not entirely sure why? Wouldn't Vettel fans normally be pointing out how Vettel's V8 went boom more than once, otherwise Webber would not have been in it? :confused: :)


Harry was speaking about Mark’s chances in the WDC being over after Silverstone and I don’t see why anyone would have felt that way in the circumstances. I suppose I could shoehorn in a discussion regarding Seb's lack of reliability :D, but in seriousness, I was interested in understanding what Harry was thinking about Mark's performance that year...

The bar would be set unrealistically high for Mark - including this season in 2013 - if he has to do more than he did in 2010 to be considered competitive for the title.

Although perhaps Mark could start naming his rides, lol. This year, Sebastian's RB9 has been christened: HUNGRY HEIDI :up:

Edited by bourbon, 14 March 2013 - 07:41.


#84 caso

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 17:23

The championship was lost a few days before the Japanese GP... :D


I don't get it :confused:


#85 Kvothe

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 17:41

I don't get it :confused:


I think that's when Mark busted up his shoulder mountain biking (or something similar) and was than forced to use pain killers for the rest of the season.

#86 Ian G

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 22:23

why Mark cant be as good as he is in Monaco on other tracks? he could mount a title challenge then :S


It would help if they finally,once and for all,fixed the KERS on his car for starters.It affected many of his races over the last few years either by overheating/not working at 100% or just failing completely.Even allowing for the fact Seb. cruising around in the lead probaly puts a lot less strain on components Mark had a lot of car related little niggles/problems last year that Seb's car didn't.Anyway new season,lets see what unfolds.

#87 caso

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 05:56

I think that's when Mark busted up his shoulder mountain biking (or something similar) and was than forced to use pain killers for the rest of the season.


The accident surely must have had an effect on his on-track performance, the question is how big of an effect. Since he was on the podium in Japan and Brasil I stay by what I said above. For me a mishap in Korea cost Webber the championship.


#88 Kelateboy

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 05:19

The gremlins are back with Red Bull. Vettel suffered KERS problem in FP2 and hydraulic issues in FP3.

Anything with Webber so far?

But despite these niggling issues, one of the RBR drivers should take P1 today.

#89 Ricardo F1

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 05:23

This thread is a fascinating read. Anyone who thinks Webber is even a speck in the rear view mirror of Vettel . . . jeez guys, he's there for a reason. Best car again, Mark will pick up pieces here and there, Vettel will win the WDC with ease. Vettel vs Webber?? Wow.

#90 race addicted

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 05:32

That's a strange comment. Webber has ran Vettel (too) close (for comfort) before, so why shouldn't he do it again? With a little more luck than usual on his side, he can do it.

#91 mnmracer

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:31

The gremlins are back with Red Bull. Vettel suffered KERS problem in FP2 and hydraulic issues in FP3.

Anything with Webber so far?

But despite these niggling issues, one of the RBR drivers should take P1 today.

We should bookmark this post, because I know in 5 months time, we're gonna hear "Webber always has KERS problems, yet Vettel never does" all over again, as we see here on this page alone.

#92 MarileneRiddle

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:41

We should bookmark this post, because I know in 5 months time, we're gonna hear "Webber always has KERS problems, yet Vettel never does" all over again, as we see here on this page alone.

I find that one of the most hilarious comments. After all Webber isn't the one who has had race victory stolen from him multiple times due to mechanical failure, is he? (BAH '10, AUS '10, KOR '10, EUR '12)

Anyway I think Webber would push as per usual and shine in his usual races and come up short. It is nothing against him - in my opinion any driver racing against Sebastian as a team mate will always lose. :p

#93 v@sh

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 22:27

We should bookmark this post, because I know in 5 months time, we're gonna hear "Webber always has KERS problems, yet Vettel never does" all over again, as we see here on this page alone.


Seb has his issues, yet Webber gets more ones when it counts during races/qualifying as opposed to practice sessions. Only ones that stick out for Vettel are the alternator issues from Valencia. I know when I'd rather have problems in practice/testing than when it will actually affect on track results (excluding 10' where Seb had quite a few) That's the difference.

Going by what I've seen so far, I can't see Webber being in front. More so with qualifying this year. The tires seem to suit Vettel getting the most out of them the first flying lap yet whereas Webber usually tends to take an extra lap to get the ideal grip level.

Edited by v@sh, 16 March 2013 - 22:29.


#94 superdelphinus

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 22:48

2010 webber should have won, 2011 he was demolished, 2012 he was leading vettel for the first half (ish) of the year and then fell to shit. I think it will be like the 2011 season for him for the rest of his career now

#95 mnmracer

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 22:59

Seb has his issues, yet Webber gets more ones when it counts during races/qualifying as opposed to practice sessions. Only ones that stick out for Vettel are the alternator issues from Valencia. I know when I'd rather have problems in practice/testing than when it will actually affect on track results (excluding 10' where Seb had quite a few) That's the difference.

Going by what I've seen so far, I can't see Webber being in front. More so with qualifying this year. The tires seem to suit Vettel getting the most out of them the first flying lap yet whereas Webber usually tends to take an extra lap to get the ideal grip level.

Such issues cost Webber a net 10 points more than they did Vettel. Doesn't acocunt for the other 92 points.

#96 Kelateboy

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 01:24

Here's hoping Webber does not squeeze Vettel into T1 just like Brazil a few months back. 1,2 Red Bull in whatever order would be nice!

#97 choyothe

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 01:27

2010 webber should have won, 2011 he was demolished, 2012 he was leading vettel for the first half (ish) of the year and then fell to shit. I think it will be like the 2011 season for him for the rest of his career now


Why exactly? Vettel was beating him clearly then as well without the failures.

#98 krapmeister

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 01:40

Here's hoping Webber does not squeeze Vettel into T1 just like Brazil a few months back. 1,2 Red Bull in whatever order would be nice!


Come on - it's the first race of the year! If they are both going for T1 let them race...

#99 Kelateboy

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 01:45

Come on - it's the first race of the year! If they are both going for T1 let them race...

I am all for both of them racing each other; just be extra careful, give each other a bit more room and don't take each other out.

The last thing I want to see is Hamilton bagging 25pts.

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#100 krapmeister

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 01:54

I am all for both of them racing each other; just be extra careful, give each other a bit more room and don't take each other out.

The last thing I want to see is Hamilton bagging 25pts.


IIRC they didn't touch in Brazil either. Obviously I'm not saying they need to take each other out but it's a completely different situation - the first race of the season and it's at the Australian GP - be nothing wrong with Mark doing a supposed 'Brazil move' here.

Not that we need be worried - he'll probably be P4 by T1 anyway... :p :well: