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Vettel Vs Webber - 2013 [merged]


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#1951 DarthWillie

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 14:51

It looked almost as if Webber let him through: the longer he kept Lewis behind, the bigger the advantage he could he given Sebastian...


I can't believe that, if that were true there is no reason to keep him till the end of the year. So I keep assuming poor driving

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#1952 Sin

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 14:53

It looked almost as if Webber let him through: the longer he kept Lewis behind, the bigger the advantage he could he given Sebastian...


it looked like that but I doubt that was it... I think he was just sleeping a second cause of the immense heat shining on his helmet

#1953 sv401

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 15:25

Why could Hamilton overtake Webber twice on the same spot????? Poor driving.


Better tyres + much faster in the DRS zones (so he could easily get very close to Webber) + generally better pace of the car in S1. For the same reasons that Vettel struggled to overtake, Webber got passed easily. The Red Bull is not a great racing car (in terms of overtaking/defending), even if it has good pace in clean air.

Edited by sv401, 28 July 2013 - 15:30.


#1954 Diablobb81

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 15:39

Better tyres + much faster in the DRS zones (so he could easily get very close to Webber) + generally better pace of the car in S1. For the same reasons that Vettel struggled to overtake, Webber got passed easily. The Red Bull is not a great racing car (in terms of overtaking/defending), even if it has good pace in clean air.


Webber made a massive mistake when he was overtaken after Lewis' pitstop.

#1955 Kelateboy

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 15:59

I really didn't understand the first pit stop. Sitting on my live timing, I was hoping for them not to pit him. First of all to possibly pass Button and secondly, because there was enough space behind Button. Getting him in front of Button or 5 seconds behind Button with clean air (and a later 2 stop strategy) is both fine. I'll have to check the exact lap times later though.

This is one of the very few times where RBR team strategists dropped the ball. Fortunately, it just cost Vettel 1 place. He was not going to challenge Hamilton for the win anyway and got lucky with Grosjean drive through penalty. He could have finished 4th instead of 3rd, so we should count our blessing. :D

#1956 plumtree

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 16:02

I really didn't understand the first pit stop. Sitting on my live timing, I was hoping for them not to pit him. First of all to possibly pass Button and secondly, because there was enough space behind Button. Getting him in front of Button or 5 seconds behind Button with clean air (and a later 2 stop strategy) is both fine. I'll have to check the exact lap times later though.

I certainly expected better lap times in clean air, when Hamilton came in fairly early.

L02 1:28.009
L03 1:27.816
L04 1:27.771
L05 1:28.060
L06 1:27.903
L07 1:28.025
L08 1:27.918
L09 1:28.243 (Hamilton in at the end of the lap)
L10 1:28.528
L11 1.1 tenths slower (S1:+0.4 + S2:+0.7!!) than in the previous lap

I didn't notice he lost so much time in his in-lap.

Button's L11 S1:+0.2, S2:-0.2 to Vettel's

Assuming a 3-stopper was the primary strategy and they believed a 2-stopper would put them in a too risky situation at the end, it appears that there was no way to come out ahead of Button.


About the 2nd stop, the gap to Button was 22.5s (L33) prior to the in-lap which would have worked just fine. Then he lost 0.4 in S1 + 1.0 in S2 = 1.4s to JB in just two sectors! :eek: The gap after L32 was 24.1s. So here it was a case of being one lap too late... One could say if a 3-stopper on three medium sets was the plan they could've reacted to Hamilton a bit earlier who came in lap 31. On the other hand, they probably didn't expect such a big drop off to be fair. Now things look more reasonable. :-p

I'll post his lap times before the 2nd pitstop later.

Edited by plumtree, 28 July 2013 - 16:06.


#1957 plumtree

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 16:13

^ Scratch the last bit. Here's FIA Race Lap Analysis chart.

http://184.106.145.7..... Analysis.pdf

#1958 FrancisDasilva

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 16:21

Does anyone have any idea what the message over the radio "failure 2 2 / failure 22 " to both drivers towards the end of the race means?

#1959 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 16:30

Well well well.... I predicted yesterday Webber would miraculously have a faultless start and race now that he wasn't near Vettel, and so it was.

Webber banks his usual 10 to 12 points keeping his end up in delivering WCC points, and Vettel gets the podium glory without ever having to deal with Mark Webber being near him.

All the problems of yesterday are just swept under the carpet again. One might think its all a bit too scripted.

:rolleyes:

Edited by NotSoSilentBob, 28 July 2013 - 16:31.


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#1960 st99

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 16:33

Does anyone have any idea what the message over the radio "failure 2 2 / failure 22 " to both drivers towards the end of the race means?


I think it's something about the KERS,in Germany Vettel was told something similar when his KERS stopped working.

#1961 joshb

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 17:53

Fair play to Webber for putting in the sort of drive that's kept him in the team- tough job for his replacement to deliever that standard often
Scrappy race for Seb, strange 2nd stop timing but in the end it was 'only' 3 points lost to Kimi and he still took 5 off Alonso... Hamilton is a specialist here so I can't see him dragging 50 points back unless shit happens to Seb. Good day all things considered

but yeah, probably one of only possibly 3 (maybe Malaysia/Spain) races where Webber had a better time of it than Seb

#1962 mnmracer

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 18:10

Well well well.... I predicted yesterday Webber would miraculously have a faultless start and race now that he wasn't near Vettel, and so it was.

Webber banks his usual 10 to 12 points keeping his end up in delivering WCC points, and Vettel gets the podium glory without ever having to deal with Mark Webber being near him.

All the problems of yesterday are just swept under the carpet again. One might think its all a bit too scripted.

:rolleyes:

Wait, so Webber has KERS issues yesterday, and all hell breaks loose because of some conspiracy.
And now Vettel has heating and KERS issues today, and even that is part of some conspiracy?
Dude... :smoking:

#1963 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 18:35

Marks tell all book that blows the lid off the conspiracy will hopefully have a section dedicated to why he kept signing with the devil team. My guess? He stayed in the team so someone else didn't have to suffer the great pain that he has.



:wave:

:rotfl: I thought about that before, if and that's a big if he's being screwed over by Red Bull why has he continuously suffered in silence. I mean Webber is the sort of guy that doesn't take any crap from anyone so why would he keep schtum on this situation.

#1964 DarthWillie

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 19:30

Wait, so Webber has KERS issues yesterday, and all hell breaks loose because of some conspiracy.
And now Vettel has heating and KERS issues today, and even that is part of some conspiracy?
Dude... :smoking:

don't forget the crappy start from Vettel and the dodgy pitstop strategy :)

#1965 mnmracer

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 19:46

don't forget the crappy start from Vettel and the dodgy pitstop strategy :)

Well, of course after all the critique from yesterday, exposing Red Bull's evil plan, they had to make it appear like they don't just screw Webber
This was just a cry for attention: "really guys, you're all wrong, it was just a mistake. please buy our soda's!"
It's all so scripted... :drunk:

#1966 Sakae

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 19:58

Honestly, I think that both drivers got shafted this weekend. Maybe the team really could use some beach R&R and re-group later on.

Edited by Sakae, 28 July 2013 - 20:11.


#1967 V3TT3L

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 21:53

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#1968 study

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 21:58

don't forget the crappy start from Vettel and the dodgy pitstop strategy :)


What crappy start or dodgy pitstop?

#1969 study

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 21:59

Honestly, I think that both drivers got shafted this weekend. Maybe the team really could use some beach R&R and re-group later on.


How did Vettel get shafted?

It was all down to Vettel not being able to get past Button.

#1970 mnmracer

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 22:24

How did Vettel get shafted?

It was all down to Vettel not being able to get past Button.

Both stops were one lap too late, losing him over a second to Button.

While not per se shafted, unless you apply some Webber fans' logic, overheating and KERS issues don't help either ;-)

#1971 Obi Offiah

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 22:36

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:lol:

#1972 study

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 22:43

Both stops were one lap too late, losing him over a second to Button.

While not per se shafted, unless you apply some Webber fans' logic, overheating and KERS issues don't help either ;-)


Every drivers stops you could say was too late or early in every race.

He came out behind button as did Lewis, the advantage was the same, just Lewis/Merc was able to get round, Vettel/Redbull wasn't.

I'd put the overheating down to being behind button so long, get past quicker it wouldn't have being a issue.

#1973 Ian G

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 22:50

Does anyone have any idea what the message over the radio "failure 2 2 / failure 22 " to both drivers towards the end of the race means?


No...but Mark backed off and Seb. seemed to do the same to a lesser degree after one last go at Kimi,,may be overheating or low fuel.Horner & Co. seemed very pleased with 3rd & 4th so there may have been issues.

#1974 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 23:00

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Simple fix, switch to Duracell because as we know Duracell lasts longer, much longer.

#1975 mnmracer

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 23:17

Excuse

Another excuse

Another excuse

Do you actually have something substantial to add?
Or are you just going to ignore that his lap-times dropped off significantly, indicating he stopped too late?
Or are you just going to ignore that with a 12kph speed deficit, one can not speak of 'same advantage'?
Or are you just going to ignore that no other driver had overheating issues, and consider it normal for a F1 car to do?

Edited by mnmracer, 28 July 2013 - 23:18.


#1976 Ben Wilson

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 23:38

Why could Hamilton overtake Webber twice on the same spot????? Poor driving.


Webber wasn't racing Hamilton, they were on different strategies. Attempting to hold Hamilton up would have just cost Webber time which would have been poor driving.

#1977 Sin

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 23:41

Webber wasn't racing Hamilton, they were on different strategies. Attempting to hold Hamilton up would have just cost Webber time which would have been poor driving.


it was an obvious mistake after his last pitstop....

and the reason why some people here wrote it looked like he planned it is, because if Webber could have kept Hamilton longer Seb might have had a chance to race him in the end....

like I said I don't think it was planned, he just made a mistake (and was sleeping)

Edited by Sin, 28 July 2013 - 23:41.


#1978 DILLIGAF

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 23:45

Does anyone have any idea what the message over the radio "failure 2 2 / failure 22 " to both drivers towards the end of the race means?


I'm guessing it was KERS.

#1979 study

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 23:48

Do you actually have something substantial to add?
Or are you just going to ignore that his lap-times dropped off significantly, indicating he stopped too late?
Or are you just going to ignore that with a 12kph speed deficit, one can not speak of 'same advantage'?
Or are you just going to ignore that no other driver had overheating issues, and consider it normal for a F1 car to do?


Chill out, you're doing a lot of ignoring yourself, his race wasn't perfect, but it isn't for a lot of drivers. Stop making excuses. Nothing ever runs perfect, or do we make excuses for every driver or just Vettel.

Edited by study, 28 July 2013 - 23:54.


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#1980 DILLIGAF

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 23:53

don't forget the crappy start from Vettel and the dodgy pitstop strategy :)


Yeah, it looked like the team dropped the ball with pit stop strategy for Seb. The RB9 really seems to struggle in dirty air as well.

#1981 Ben Wilson

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 00:57

and the reason why some people here wrote it looked like he planned it is, because if Webber could have kept Hamilton longer Seb might have had a chance to race him in the end...


He could have, but would anyone seriously expect Webber to cost himself time to help Vettel? If things in the team were different, it would have been a possibility, but with the current climate I'd suggest that it's very unlikely.



#1982 bourbon

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 01:02

He could have, but would anyone seriously expect Webber to cost himself time to help Vettel? If things in the team were different, it would have been a possibility, but with the current climate I'd suggest that it's very unlikely.


Nothing new there. Webber's had that attitude for years. Helps the team when it suits him.

#1983 Brother Fox

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 02:36

This thread has gone so far downhill its barely worth it anymore.

Conspiracy theories, and childish 'your driver sucks' posts .....meh

#1984 Raelene

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 04:34

Good on you Mark http://www1.skysport.../12433/8843604/



#1985 DarthWillie

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 05:32

Webber wasn't racing Hamilton, they were on different strategies. Attempting to hold Hamilton up would have just cost Webber time which would have been poor driving.


Well actually if he had been able to keep him behind long enough to let Kimi and Sebastian jump Lewis at the stops Lewis could have been in range on his last stint with softs. Admittedly a longshot and difficult but still

#1986 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 05:33

Wait, so Webber has KERS issues yesterday, and all hell breaks loose because of some conspiracy.
And now Vettel has heating and KERS issues today, and even that is part of some conspiracy?
Dude... :smoking:


What was Vettel's KERS issue? He couldn't re-charge his system properly because he was so close to the car in front? And his car was overheating.... for the same reason? Vettel's car, including his KERS system, cools if he drops back into cooler air. End of.

How exactly does that compare to Webber's issues on Saturday? :rolleyes:

#1987 mnmracer

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 05:54

What was Vettel's KERS issue? He couldn't re-charge his system properly because he was so close to the car in front? And his car was overheating.... for the same reason? Vettel's car, including his KERS system, cools if he drops back into cooler air. End of.

How exactly does that compare to Webber's issues on Saturday? :rolleyes:

I don't know how long you've been watching Formula One, but these cars are not supposed to overheat, just like they're not supposed to have KERS failures. Since your premise was "mechanical issues = OMG conspiracy", it is peculiar you put on a different hat now that Vettel's car doesn't function the way it is supposed to. Or do you concede that despite this is the third race in a row Vettel's car has mechanical issues, mechanical issues are a part of Formula One?

#1988 mnmracer

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 06:00

Good on you Mark http://www1.skysport.../12433/8843604/

One of the reasons I think Sebastian is such a refreshing character: no whining or bitching, just put the pedal to the metal. You'd think he'd have a lot more to bitch about retiring from the lead for the umpteenth time, but instead, he just goes back to the team and thanks them for a weekend of hard work. That's how you get the team behind you.

#1989 sergeym

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 06:09

Good on you Mark http://www1.skysport.../12433/8843604/


Well, Webber no longer has to worry about maintaining good relationship with the team, so he is more open.

#1990 mnmracer

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 06:45

Well, Webber no longer has to worry about maintaining good relationship with the team, so he is more open.

His words may be "more open", but the drama is the same as it has always been.

#1991 Mercedestorque1

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 07:02

One of the reasons I think Sebastian is such a refreshing character: no whining or bitching, just put the pedal to the metal. You'd think he'd have a lot more to bitch about retiring from the lead for the umpteenth time, but instead, he just goes back to the team and thanks them for a weekend of hard work. That's how you get the team behind you.

"Cuccumber!","get him out of the way he's too slow","why do i have a drive through?" sound familiar?

#1992 bourbon

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 07:15

"Cuccumber!","get him out of the way he's too slow","why do i have a drive through?" sound familiar?


mnm didn't say Seb goes about with a big fake smile when his collegues drive like crap and impact his race. He said after a bad race, he thanks his CREW and moves on, which unites the team. Calling the team out publicly, blaming them and/or accusing them of being inept or of sabotage - well I don't have to tell you - that isn't good for morale. Mark doesn't do it all the time, just when he gets super upset it seems. But it isn't a good practice.

Edited by bourbon, 29 July 2013 - 07:25.


#1993 joshb

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 07:24

it was an obvious mistake after his last pitstop....

and the reason why some people here wrote it looked like he planned it is, because if Webber could have kept Hamilton longer Seb might have had a chance to race him in the end....

like I said I don't think it was planned, he just made a mistake (and was sleeping)


Thing is with Turn 2, the normal racing line is to compromise slightly for the right at Turn 3, so you don't use all the road on the exit of T2 (thus not carrying so much speed through the turn), this allows someone to try and pass round the outside, use all the exit space, knowing if they can get alongside they have the inside for T3, which is what Hamilton did twice, albeit with the aid of more grip to help.
Yes Turn 2 is an unusual overtaking spot but it can be done around the outside, I've seen a few moves round there.

#1994 joshb

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 07:26

Good on you Mark http://www1.skysport.../12433/8843604/


It is embarrassing for a world champion team to make such errors, especially not fitting a wheel on and also underfuelling the car in China and Abu Dhabi- basic thing you wouldn't even expect a Formula Ford team to make

#1995 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 07:33

I don't know how long you've been watching Formula One, but these cars are not supposed to overheat


They're not supposed to overheat??? Think McFly! Think! :drunk:

Time and time again there are radio messages to drivers that they need to cool their cars and get out of the hot air coming off the car in front. There was at least one message to that effect from Rocky to Seb yesterday. Seb was hard up under Button's wing, lap after lap. No wonder the car was running hot! And, I imagine the lack of ventilation was affecting the cooling of the KERS as well.

Webber's Saturday problems weren't self-inflicted, whilst more than arguably Seb's were due to his proximity to the car in front!

#1996 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 07:35

One of the reasons I think Sebastian is such a refreshing character: no whining or bitching


:rotfl: oh that's rich, what was he saying about Kimi mid-race yesterday again? :drunk:

#1997 mnmracer

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 08:03

They're not supposed to overheat??? Think McFly! Think! :drunk:

Time and time again there are radio messages to drivers that they need to cool their cars and get out of the hot air coming off the car in front. There was at least one message to that effect from Rocky to Seb yesterday. Seb was hard up under Button's wing, lap after lap. No wonder the car was running hot! And, I imagine the lack of ventilation was affecting the cooling of the KERS as well.

Webber's Saturday problems weren't self-inflicted, whilst more than arguably Seb's were due to his proximity to the car in front!

Really? Got some numbers to back that up?

:rotfl: oh that's rich, what was he saying about Kimi end-race yesterday again? :drunk:

Fixed that for you, and just a tip to start your week: learn a thing or two about context.

#1998 mangeliiito

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 08:17

They're not supposed to overheat??? Think McFly! Think! :drunk:

Time and time again there are radio messages to drivers that they need to cool their cars and get out of the hot air coming off the car in front. There was at least one message to that effect from Rocky to Seb yesterday. Seb was hard up under Button's wing, lap after lap. No wonder the car was running hot! And, I imagine the lack of ventilation was affecting the cooling of the KERS as well.

Webber's Saturday problems weren't self-inflicted, whilst more than arguably Seb's were due to his proximity to the car in front!


Seb got the fail 22 message when he wasn't close to the car ahead. But of course since it's Seb it has to be his fault that his KERS broke, but is never ever Webbers fault that he makes a bad start or have a mechanical failure.

Anyway Mark's recent statements should probably not make the team determind to fix his promblem ASAP. I really think that kind of critisim should be kept behind closed doors. He may be out of the end of the season, but he's still employed by the team. If he thinks it's waste of time he should quit. It's embarassing to watch, he's a good driver but I think lower and lower of him. You can speak your mind and be profenssional at the same time - as he have been from time to time.

#1999 sv401

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 08:46

He came out behind button as did Lewis, the advantage was the same, just Lewis/Merc was able to get round, Vettel/Redbull wasn't.

I'd put the overheating down to being behind button so long, get past quicker it wouldn't have being a issue.


Do you think other drivers would have been able to get past quickly with the RB9 (low power, easily overheats behind another car, low top speed even with DRS making it not possible to get close enough into S1) on the Hungaroring ? The team should be aware of the difficulty of overtaking and therefore the importance of track position, and choose the strategy accordingly. But it would not have been easy to avoid Button anyway, because the gap in the laps before the pit stop was not enough yet (although it was close at the end of lap 10), and the tyres dropped off suddenly in lap 11. Ultimately, it is not missing the pole position by a small margin that would probably have made a major difference to the race.

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#2000 bourbon

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 08:55

It is embarrassing for a world champion team to make such errors, especially not fitting a wheel on and also underfuelling the car in China and Abu Dhabi- basic thing you wouldn't even expect a Formula Ford team to make


Yes, but that is the point, isn't it? Did Mark feel that on top of the "massive frustration, stupidity, and embarrassment" the championship team already feels on account of the myriad of reliability issues, it would be a good thing to publicly humiliate them futher? Granted, he includes himself, but his side of the garage can't be feeling too glued after that speech.

I reckon it will pass; but the point is that while what he says may be true, it is something best said face to face with the crew in the garage, imo.

Edited by bourbon, 29 July 2013 - 08:55.